Accurate Height Measurement in Tailor

orangeitis · February 2017

Yes, I am well aware that the height slider does this, but as soon as you move the leg length or head height sliders off their neutral positions, the height slider is no longer accurate. Could we possibly get a visible height guide right beside our hero so we can visually(and more accurately) set our character's heights?

championshewolf · March 2017

orangeitis said:
Yes, I am well aware that the height slider does this, but as soon as you move the leg length or head height sliders off their neutral positions, the height slider is no longer accurate. Could we possibly get a visible height guide right beside our hero so we can visually(and more accurately) set our character's heights?

There's a yard stick at the tailor on the wall. You can use that to gauge how tall you actually are. Can't read it if you have low settings though.

decorumfriends · March 2017

It's wrong, though, although I still use it. It's way short. Defender towers over a six footer like he's eight feet tall. Civilians are similarly huge, as well as the scale for desks and chairs, etc..

decorumfriends · March 2017

Echo, next to Defender, is 5' 10" by the ruler by the tailor.

orangeitis · March 2017

Seems like we got a "they're superheroes so they need to be taller by power of virtue" trope here. I seriously hope that the inaccurate measurements aren't a feature to misguide us from learning of this. It's failing horribly if it is.

themightyzenith · March 2017

orangeitis said:
Seems like we got a "they're superheroes so they need to be taller by power of virtue" trope here.

Yet averagely tall, say 6'-6'3", look like toddlers when sitting on most CO chairs.

orangeitis · March 2017

themightyzenith said:

orangeitis said:
Seems like we got a "they're superheroes so they need to be taller by power of virtue" trope here.
Yet averagely tall, say 6'-6'3", look like toddlers when sitting on most CO chairs.

Exactly.

beezeeze · March 2017

I usually go by the ruler near the tailors and assume all the npcs in game are freakish giants in a city built for freakish gaints. It must be something they put in the water.

decorumfriends · March 2017

I've long thought about trying to make a conversion chart to how it "really is", but I don't really have a "real" marker to work from. Anyone know how tall Defender is SUPPOSED to be in his armor? That might work for a starter.

jellycupsowbug · March 2017

Some of the NPCs and furniture aren't huge. A lot of the stuff in West Side is done in scale with the height indicators. It seems like the newer the content is, the bigger its models are.

It wouldn't surprise me if the tailor ruler is in scale with attack ranges and West Side models.

orangeitis · March 2017

decorumfriends said:
Anyone know how tall Defender is SUPPOSED to be in his armor? That might work for a starter.

There we go. That would be a GREAT start.

raighn · March 2017

decorumfriends said:
Anyone know how tall Defender is SUPPOSED to be in his armor?

According his PnP bio... he's 6’3”... so if we assume that's his actual height and that his boots and helmet each add 1" to his height then 6'5" in armor?

championshewolf · March 2017

decorumfriends said:
It's wrong, though, although I still use it. It's way short. Defender towers over a six footer like he's eight feet tall. Civilians are similarly huge, as well as the scale for desks and chairs, etc..

It's actually not wrong, since most of the NPCs are set to be much bigger than average ratings. Any general stat on an NPC such as height you might as well throw out the window since they are generally made bigger to be noticed. So using Defender as your yard stick is a bit misleading.

avianos · March 2017

They could always add a Height Ruler in tailor like the one which was in Super Tailor
The Height Rule in RenCen Tailor kiosk is helpful, but I would prefer if it was part of the tailor system itself

In fact I wonder why they didnt add it in the first place with the Tailor Revamp

championshewolf · March 2017

avianos said:
They could always add a Height Ruler in tailor like the one which was in Super Tailor

The Height Rule in RenCen Tailor kiosk is helpful, but I would be prefer if it was part of the tailor system itself

In fact I wonder why they didnt add it in the first place with the Tailor Revamp

This idea has been discussed before why it wouldn't exactly work, due to how the rendering would work. Since it would be added to the background, not the foreground with the character thus the measure would be static and given how character stances can throw off perceptions as well as the camera angle against said character, making it accurate would be exceptionally difficult and most likely would not receive a ton of attention in dev time.

avianos · March 2017

Awww... It's a shame that technical issues make small Quality of life suggestions like that impossible to execute

roughbearmattach · March 2017

The tailor slider heights do not at all match character models for NPCs. I remember a discussion where I made fun of Caliga for being short, and he insisted his character was 6' or 6'2" or something. He was shorter than nearly all NPCs, and noticeably smaller.

Whatever in-game measuring stick is used, make it conform to actual NPCs. If they skew tall, just change the scale, so that the current average NPC is around 5'8". In other words, just change the numbers on the slider, bringing them down about 4 inches.

themightyzenith · March 2017

roughbearmattach said:
I remember a discussion where I made fun of Caliga for being short, and he insisted his character was 6' or 6'2" or something.

That's only in heels though.

championshewolf · March 2017

roughbearmattach said:
The tailor slider heights do not at all match character models for NPCs. I remember a discussion where I made fun of Caliga for being short, and he insisted his character was 6' or 6'2" or something. He was shorter than nearly all NPCs, and noticeably smaller.

Whatever in-game measuring stick is used, make it conform to actual NPCs. If they skew tall, just change the scale, so that the current average NPC is around 5'8". In other words, just change the numbers on the slider, bringing them down about 4 inches.

They make NPCs intentionally taller to make them stand out amongst PC players. This is especially true of bosses and such which can easily get lost as is in group fights. Hence why Shadow Destroyer is like 9 feet tall instead of his more accurate 6 foot. It's a design choice to make them stand out basically. Most MMOs do this for their big name characters in fact, and it's not unique to CO.

orangeitis · March 2017

championshewolf said:

decorumfriends said:
It's wrong, though, although I still use it. It's way short. Defender towers over a six footer like he's eight feet tall. Civilians are similarly huge, as well as the scale for desks and chairs, etc..
It's actually not wrong, since most of the NPCs are set to be much bigger than average ratings. Any general stat on an NPC such as height you might as well throw out the window since they are generally made bigger to be noticed. So using Defender as your yard stick is a bit misleading.

A ridiculous practice. Not only does it detract from immersion, it's completely unnecessary. NPCs will not be more noticeable if they're a little bigger.

This frustrates me to no end.

championshewolf · March 2017

orangeitis said:

championshewolf said:

decorumfriends said:
It's wrong, though, although I still use it. It's way short. Defender towers over a six footer like he's eight feet tall. Civilians are similarly huge, as well as the scale for desks and chairs, etc..
It's actually not wrong, since most of the NPCs are set to be much bigger than average ratings. Any general stat on an NPC such as height you might as well throw out the window since they are generally made bigger to be noticed. So using Defender as your yard stick is a bit misleading.
A ridiculous practice. Not only does it detract from immersion, it's completely unnecessary. NPCs will not be more noticeable if they're a little bigger.

This frustrates me to no end.

Actually they are more noticeable if they are bigger. Might not like it but when you got 50 people all huddled around throwing off effects a bigger model is going to stand out more than anything else. That's just basic way vision works, and data tends to back that fact up.

orangeitis · March 2017

championshewolf said:

orangeitis said:

championshewolf said:

decorumfriends said:
It's wrong, though, although I still use it. It's way short. Defender towers over a six footer like he's eight feet tall. Civilians are similarly huge, as well as the scale for desks and chairs, etc..
It's actually not wrong, since most of the NPCs are set to be much bigger than average ratings. Any general stat on an NPC such as height you might as well throw out the window since they are generally made bigger to be noticed. So using Defender as your yard stick is a bit misleading.
A ridiculous practice. Not only does it detract from immersion, it's completely unnecessary. NPCs will not be more noticeable if they're a little bigger.

This frustrates me to no end.
Actually they are more noticeable if they are bigger. Might not like it but when you got 50 people all huddled around throwing off effects a bigger model is going to stand out more than anything else. That's just basic way vision works, and data tends to back that fact up.

That is completely irrelevant when the devs can instead make it so you could click on an NPC directly instead of trying to find it in a crowd. PWI does this, no excuse for CO not to as well.

And even so, there's just no excuse for that amount of gameplay-story segregation. If one can't get to an NPC because an NPC is short, so be it.

avianos · March 2017

That's the reason they increased the Size of SLUG for the Qliphothic Warzone open mission

he is bigger now, its easier to see what direction he is facing as well as his attack animations
Bosses need to be big to stand out

orangeitis · March 2017

avianos said:
That's the reason they increased the Size of SLUG for the Qliphothic Warzone open mission

he is bigger now, its easier to see what direction he is facing as well as his attack animations
Bosses need to be big to stand out

Only if they're canonically supposed to be that big. =3

roughbearmattach · March 2017

championshewolf said:

Actually they are more noticeable if they are bigger. Might not like it but when you got 50 people all huddled around throwing off effects a bigger model is going to stand out more than anything else. That's just basic way vision works, and data tends to back that fact up.

I wasn't referring to villains, sorry. I was referring to the rank and file NPCs that walk around zones, and typical mobs.

Again, simply changing the numbers in the tailor would fix this entire issue.

championshewolf · March 2017

roughbearmattach said:

championshewolf said:

Actually they are more noticeable if they are bigger. Might not like it but when you got 50 people all huddled around throwing off effects a bigger model is going to stand out more than anything else. That's just basic way vision works, and data tends to back that fact up.
I wasn't referring to villains, sorry. I was referring to the rank and file NPCs that walk around zones, and typical mobs.

Again, simply changing the numbers in the tailor would fix this entire issue.

You can't make that call nor do you have the data to back it up, at all. In fact it's a bit erroneous to say simply changing since I wouldn't begin to assume how the calls are made in the system to begin with, since neither STO nor Neverwinter make such updates either. So I assume it's not so simple to do. And given the budgetary concerns for Champions, they aren't going to waste development time on a minor issue (very minor honestly) that a few would even care about compared to working on other things.

raighn · March 2017

championshewolf said:

orangeitis said:

championshewolf said:

decorumfriends said:
It's wrong, though, although I still use it. It's way short. Defender towers over a six footer like he's eight feet tall. Civilians are similarly huge, as well as the scale for desks and chairs, etc..
It's actually not wrong, since most of the NPCs are set to be much bigger than average ratings. Any general stat on an NPC such as height you might as well throw out the window since they are generally made bigger to be noticed. So using Defender as your yard stick is a bit misleading.
A ridiculous practice. Not only does it detract from immersion, it's completely unnecessary. NPCs will not be more noticeable if they're a little bigger.

This frustrates me to no end.
Actually they are more noticeable if they are bigger. Might not like it but when you got 50 people all huddled around throwing off effects a bigger model is going to stand out more than anything else. That's just basic way vision works, and data tends to back that fact up.

In the general sense it is true that bigger NPCs are easier to notice... but that case only really holds true when the NPCs actually out-size the players... in a game where you can make yourself into a towering giant the size of NPCs tends to play much less of a role in how easy they are to notice unless the devs are willing to make NPCs into towering giants as well.

That's one of the main reasons why Onslaught villains are giants, and have sky beacons to boot... They tower over even the tallest of player characters (who are not using a growth device), and the beacon helps with locating them not only from distances but when there are giants using growth devices around them too.

Most important NPCs however are dwarfed by giant players, and when a group of them cluster around the NPC (as tends to happen during events with event NPCs) the NPCs are still very difficult to spot.

roughbearmattach · March 2017

championshewolf said:

I mean literally just change the numbers that display on the screen in the tailor UI. Nothing would change in game play; no NPCs would change; no PCs would change. People would just see a different number on the height slider, to better align with the played game. Again, no variable calls need to change--just the numbers on the slider display.

I do agree that it would be a waste of development time. I'm pointing out that this is a problem of perception ("The tailor says I'm 6' tall, so why do I look short?")

championshewolf · March 2017

roughbearmattach said:

championshewolf said:
I mean literally just change the numbers that display on the screen in the tailor UI. Nothing would change in game play; no NPCs would change; no PCs would change. People would just see a different number on the height slider, to better align with the played game. Again, no variable calls need to change--just the numbers on the slider display.

I do agree that it would be a waste of development time. I'm pointing out that this is a problem of perception ("The tailor says I'm 6' tall, so why do I look short?")

If that were so simple I am sure STo and Neverwinter would have unlocked that factor years ago. As far as I am aware, the height slider does not even take the legs into consideration so I doubt it is as simple as just making it do whatever.

roughbearmattach · March 2017

Yes, I agree that it isn't worth dev time, but no, I don't think it is complex . . . unless the displayed numbers on the height slider are actually the determining variable for some aspect of character skeletons.

Barring truly bizarre code, I do think it is as simple as that. The other sliders had numbers added--they are just numbers corresponding to slider settings, nothing more. The numbers that display have zero impact on character models. The slider setting matters, yes, but that is different from what displays on screen.

orangeitis · March 2017

roughbearmattach said:

championshewolf said:
I mean literally just change the numbers that display on the screen in the tailor UI. Nothing would change in game play; no NPCs would change; no PCs would change. People would just see a different number on the height slider, to better align with the played game. Again, no variable calls need to change--just the numbers on the slider display.

I do agree that it would be a waste of development time. I'm pointing out that this is a problem of perception ("The tailor says I'm 6' tall, so why do I look short?")

It's not that simple. It doesn't matter what height measurement is on the height slider in the tailor, the fact is that when the other vertical sliders are tweaked even just a little, those numbers will be false. Therefore, instead of the numbers in the height slider be there at all, something independent of the height slider should be there.

The measurement just outside the MC tailor would work if it was accurate at all.

championshewolf · March 2017

orangeitis said:

It's not that simple. It doesn't matter what height measurement is on the height slider in the tailor, the fact is that when the other vertical sliders are tweaked even just a little, those numbers will be false. Therefore, instead of the numbers in the height slider be there at all, something independent of the height slider should be there.

The measurement just outside the MC tailor would work if it was accurate at all.

The stick outside the tailor is accurate. Again using NPCs like Defender as your yard stick is again futile since high profile NPCs are generally made larger.

orangeitis · March 2017

championshewolf said:

orangeitis said:

It's not that simple. It doesn't matter what height measurement is on the height slider in the tailor, the fact is that when the other vertical sliders are tweaked even just a little, those numbers will be false. Therefore, instead of the numbers in the height slider be there at all, something independent of the height slider should be there.

The measurement just outside the MC tailor would work if it was accurate at all.
The stick outside the tailor is accurate. Again using NPCs like Defender as your yard stick is again futile since high profile NPCs are generally made larger.

Using ANY NPC as a yardstick should work, so if an NPC is inaccurate, that's on the devs, not us. Segregating the story and the gameplay in such a way, even though players can be made to be bigger isn't an excuse at all.

raighn · March 2017

In regards to the comment about devs discussing it before and stating that it wouldn't work due to it being an element in the background texture... There are actually 2 options available that would be simpler than attempting to dynamically scale the background with character zoom and attempting to compensate for poses.

Option 1) The scale is NOT a background texture, but rather a 3D object appended to the character model in the Tailor, when zoom level is adjusted the scale will remain accurate as it is a physical element, not a simple background texture. This is actually a lot simpler than some might make it out to be, any dev who would claim otherwise is quite honestly just lazy. It's just a large cylinder with a texture only on the interior that surrounds the player model in the tailor. Due to the fact that you will be looking at the texture from a direct 90 degree angle you will see no curves to the lines. Alternatively but more complex is an object attached to the center point of the character that has a locked rotation.

Option 2) Add a "Height Check" button that switches to a new screen where the model is in a static pose and can only be rotated left and right, no zoom options. This allows the devs to use a simple texture scale in the background or foreground that will be completely accurate due to there being no variance in character's perceived scale since there will be no animation or zoom.

decorumfriends · March 2017

championshewolf said:

orangeitis said:

It's not that simple. It doesn't matter what height measurement is on the height slider in the tailor, the fact is that when the other vertical sliders are tweaked even just a little, those numbers will be false. Therefore, instead of the numbers in the height slider be there at all, something independent of the height slider should be there.

The measurement just outside the MC tailor would work if it was accurate at all.
The stick outside the tailor is accurate. Again using NPCs like Defender as your yard stick is again futile since high profile NPCs are generally made larger.

It's not accurate (apparently, except, someone mentioned, in West Side). Most of the environmental pieces are made way bigger. Granted, your large NPC issue is likely right, but then we need a way to find the correct scale from the environment itself. Of course, if the West Side thing is right, then we have the problem that the environment isn't consistent (a design problem we really can't do anything about).

opalflame · April 2017

I just noticed something weird that reminded me of this thread. Defender is much taller with his armor on than without it. Here are some screenshots of him standing next to my character.

with armor:

without armor:

kallethen · April 2017

orangeitis wrote: »

The measurement just outside the MC tailor would work if it was accurate at all.

I think it might be accurate to the game's calculations of measurement. Probably would need a dev to confirm that though.

nacito · April 2017

I think I may have an answer

You see, I was playing with Blender and some stuff with another thread: this one~
When I exported an .obj (mesh) directly from the game (char selection) I got this:

pretty normal isn't it? but when you rotate the camera...

The actual camera affect all the meshes, making everything look normal with the camera's FOV or something like that, almost the same happens with the actual gameplay camera:

is not as much for the char selection camera, but still makes things a bit... higher?
But what about the tailor screen? well:

thats the normal front view...

Right view... soooo flat and long xd
I find sooo interesting that the actual mesh changes depending of the camera position... that or I'm missing something pretty important here, but that may play a role in this whole chaos measure thing

And that's my contribution :>

kallethen · April 2017

The simplest reason is probably the most correct reason: When the devs created all the NPCs, they did not base it on actual values of "the average real person is X feet and Y inches tall." They simply picked created NPCs at whatever size looked good in the game, perhaps using the median height value possible by the character creator as a template.

kabal713 · September 2017

beezeeze said:
I usually go by the ruler near the tailors and assume all the npcs in game are freakish giants in a city built for freakish gaints. It must be something they put in the water.

Where.... ARE those rulers? I can;t find them.

themightyzenith · September 2017

kabal713 said:
Where.... ARE those rulers? I can;t find them.

Against the wall, by the tailors in RenCen.

spinnytop · September 2017

Gee... some really heated debate going on about... inches. >.>;

orangeitis · September 2017

spinnytop said:
Gee... some really heated debate going on about... inches. >.>;

Every inch counts.

flyingfinn · September 2017

orangeitis said:

spinnytop said:
Gee... some really heated debate going on about... inches. >.>;
Every inch counts.

But it all comes down to the Body Mass slider.

orangeitis · September 2017

flyingfinn said:

orangeitis said:

spinnytop said:
Gee... some really heated debate going on about... inches. >.>;
Every inch counts.
But it all comes down to the Body Mass slider.

Just because other sliders affect height doesn't mean it can't be measured =D

themightyzenith · September 2017

orangeitis said:
Just because other sliders affect height doesn't mean it can't be measured =D

Some of the environment in CO doesn't actually scale properly with other parts (e.g. some chairs compared to other chairs) of the environment...... doors, chairs, etc are all differently scaled making height measurement entirely arbitrary.

orangeitis · September 2017

themightyzenith said:

orangeitis said:
Just because other sliders affect height doesn't mean it can't be measured =D
Some of the environment in CO doesn't actually scale properly with other parts (e.g. some chairs compared to other chairs) of the environment...... doors, chairs, etc are all differently scaled making height measurement entirely arbitrary.

I know, right? After they make this height measurement baseline, they should go back and re-scale everything that doesn't match with it.

themightyzenith · September 2017

orangeitis said:
I know, right? After they make this height measurement baseline, they should go back and re-scale everything that doesn't match with it.

I would really like dev time to be used for this!

orangeitis · September 2017

themightyzenith said:

orangeitis said:
I know, right? After they make this height measurement baseline, they should go back and re-scale everything that doesn't match with it.
I would really like dev time to be used for this!

That's the spirit!

championshewolf · September 2017

themightyzenith said:

orangeitis said:
I know, right? After they make this height measurement baseline, they should go back and re-scale everything that doesn't match with it.
I would really like dev time to be used for this!

Heights and sizes are intentionally set the way they are. Again important NPCs are made taller and larger to stand out. This is just an industry standard, not just a Champions thing. Furtniture and such int he game world is also larger because you got body types that have swaths of range in size and they are made that way to accommodate the largest, natural body size (without growth devices or powers) as possible.

orangeitis · September 2017

championshewolf said:

themightyzenith said:

orangeitis said:
I know, right? After they make this height measurement baseline, they should go back and re-scale everything that doesn't match with it.
I would really like dev time to be used for this!

Heights and sizes are intentionally set the way they are. Again important NPCs are made taller and larger to stand out. This is just an industry standard, not just a Champions thing. Furtniture and such int he game world is also larger because you got body types that have swaths of range in size and they are made that way to accommodate the largest, natural body size (without growth devices or powers) as possible.

Yes, and we want them to intentionally stop doing that and fix the size of everything. I mean, what's the point of a persistent world if its scale is crapped up?

Accurate Height Measurement in Tailor

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