The Problem with the New Forms

gradii · August 2017

Nearly all of them limit you to a single powerset to stay effective. If this trend continues, gone will be the days where interesting and creative builds were possible, and we'll all be playing glorified ATs.

I didn't pay for a lifetime of freeform access so I could do that.

I hope additional trigger conditions are added to the forms to make them work with more than a couple powersets each. Scaling on just one stat is seriously enough limitation as is.

rtma · August 2017

gradii said:
gone will be the days where interesting and creative builds were possible,

That's ironic cause all I remember before they started tweaking this game was the majority of players builds revolved around either glorified AoPM Hybrid builds, nigh invulnerable Defiant Tanks and Steamrolling 2gm Quarry Damage builds, please don't delude yourself, it's human nature, if anything these adjustments are encouraging variety & diversity, not stagnation and complacency, well, not as much, change is difficult but it can be for the better.

Unknown · August 2017

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rtma · August 2017

gradii said:

Those were the pvpers pretty much, I know I didn't do that and most of my friends didn't. Most people make builds they enjoy and like the theme of. Pretty soon we won't be able to do that anymore.

Can't you see the ability to mix powersets vanishing entirely? what if my character shoots lightning AND has super strength, or flings force bolts AND can freeze things solid? Plenty of comic book super heroes have more than one kind of power, in fact the most popular ones almost all do.

Well, comforting to hear, until we see the entire power-sets reviewed, we can only speculate, I assume this is to give synergy bonuses to specializing in framework builds while having more hybrid builds is just that, like Hybrid role(Jack of all, master of none), you can still build with mixed powers but without the in framework synergy it won't be as good but can still perform, don't let that stop you or anyone else from having fun.

roughbearmattach · August 2017

To echo my draconic friend, older style FFs were made using a very small subset of "the best" powers, which were easy to combine and synergize.

Now, more people are encouraged to make heroes that favor (or entirely use) one powerset, much like archetypical heroes. You can certainly mix and match some power sets (like my fiery, staff-wielding Warlock, or Tower of Power, my enrage-giant growth-electric tank), but having a very mixed build now requires a trade of power for versatility.

I like this trend. You can still be "Mario", and be pretty good at everything, but if you want to be best at jumping, you really should be "Luigi".

Unknown · August 2017

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chimerafreek · August 2017

Everyone is just going to use the non-framework limited forms because they are already on their builds and there's no reason to change it.

sterga · August 2017

The problem with new forms is they aren't just kept simple. No one wants to spend time caring about something so boring as energy management. It'd be nice if the dumb things simply scaled with your highest stat and that there was just a separate section of powers (like the travel power section) that was all forms and energy unlocks with various conditions for your building pleasure.

We already get enough of being shoved into single sets without the energy management aspect.

pwestolemyname · August 2017

sterga said:
The problem with new forms is they aren't just kept simple. No one wants to spend time caring about something so boring as

This. It is possible that the min-maxers may find some benefit in juggling weird side effects, but really the triggers for Concentrate and Chilled form are still the easiest to reliably trigger. Oh, Manipulator, too, but nobody likes that one. Form of the Tempest (procs on Crits) and Enrage (procs on KB) are also easy melee triggers. Some of these new forms have such weird requirements that I am definitely just going to ignore them, unless they give significantly increased bonuses over the about 4 or 5.

roughbearmattach · August 2017

chimerafreek said:
Everyone is just going to use the non-framework limited forms because they are already on their builds and there's no reason to change it.

All those forms are going to change somewhat. Concentration, for instance, will likely become Int scaling, with a trigger related to gadgets/tech.

avianos · August 2017

roughbearmattach wrote: »

All those forms are going to change somewhat. Concentration, for instance, will likely become Int scaling, with a trigger related to gadgets/tech.

S T O P
stop saying that

You keep saying this but you have no evidence that this will happen as well as you have no idea how much impact this will cause in balancing and ATs Revamps

There are a LOT of ATs who are using Concentration and don't have INT (Inferno, Squall, Soldier, Glacier, Mountain, Void, Night Avenger)

Did Soldier got Sharp Sooter when it got revamped?
Did Gracier got Chill Form when it Got Revamped?
Did Void got a different form when it got revamped?

The new Forms were only given to the NEW Prenium ATs

Concentration is one of the oldest forms and will cause backlash if they went and change it

S T O P

Unknown · August 2017

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ryokoryu · August 2017

not only this but the powers in a particular tree that trigger forms are too limited. I kept trying to make my muni work with flame thrower but it counts too much on having furious instead and flame thrower has no access to that. I am forced to take either SMG burst or the dual pistols equivalent. This means that I need to take an AOE power that destroys groups to use my other AOE power that destroys groups effectively. Oh wait the stuff I wanna flame thrower on is all dead because I had to use that first power and now why do I have flame thrower? WTF u gave us flame thrower so we could what, make a fire toon that had another skin for fire breath? Come on, rocket launcher sucks, flame thrower sucks, sharp shooter shoehorns you completely into AT style play, no good reason to sacrifice power for the theme. This is almost ALWAYS the case. I really think they have their hard-ons for limiting choice for players here. It just comes down to Generic-ing the crap out of a game thats best strong point is it's customization. You already have NO GOOD FORMS for hybrid DPS, heck you don't even have a role for hybrid DPS. I don't want to have more control in my melee/ranged hybrids, I want it to be all damage. you already have to take a 25% drop in one kind of damage or another or both in role bonus but they screw ya over in forms also. Now they want to put more limits and the newest one is buffed by 1 of the 2 tied for worst by far stats to base your damage form on in the game. I have a post about that btw in this same forum. It doesn't make the game more interesting and fun it just leads to even more cookie-cutter crap. Then again, I don't know maybe they need to do this so so people can actually make working builds. I was in a forum malvanum today on a full team of DPS all over level 35 and I was the only one with the damage to do anything. the other 4 couldn't even get through henchmen efficiently.

spinnytop · August 2017

gradii said:
I'm sorry but having to sacrifice effectiveness for theme does not sound like "be the hero you want to be" it sounds like "be the hero we think you should be".

Well good news then, because the game no longer forces you to sacrifice effectiveness for theme, or sacrifice theme for effectiveness, the way it used to. I can be a strong hero with a much wider assortment of powers now than I could 2-3 years ago.

avianos said:

Concentration is one of the oldest forms and will cause backlash if they went and change it

You know, certain people keep pushing this threat about the changes that keep coming out and nobody has ever delivered on it. I don't see a reason why this change would be any different. Simply put: 'some people might make a few inflammatory forum posts' is no reason the devs should be scared to go forward with their plans because so far the results support that this direction is a good one.

As for why people keep saying this is going to happen? Because it looks extremely likely. Just look at the changes that have happened thus far. You think they're going to keep these "clearly better choices because they're easy and don't require any synergy" around forever? If you look at what's going on, that stuff is getting scrubbed right out of the meta ( good riddance, imho ). Just do me one favor: when/if it does happen... at least try it out before you leave a long angry forum post about it

gradii said:
Roughbear might be right, but nobody should be happy about it. Who pays money to play ATs? Might as well remove freeform from the game.

Glad to see you not resorting to exaggeration or hyperbole.

jonesing4 · August 2017

I don't mean this to sound like a 'I'm threatening to leave' kinda statement, because I don't plan on leaving the game till it shuts down. It's just a statement of extreme probability bordering on fact: I can't see myself continuing to play the game if they change current forms to scale off of different stats or to be triggered by one powerset only.

I have 134 characters; 100 of them are lvl. 40s with a level of gear I'm comfortable with. Roughly half of those use Concentration. If they decide that I need to re-gear, re-spec, completely re-do ~50 characters for no discernible reason, they've essentially told me to **** off. There is a 99% chance I just switch to more reading and less (no) CO at that point.

Unknown · August 2017

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avianos · August 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

As for why people keep saying this is going to happen? Because it looks extremely likely. Just look at the changes that have happened thus far. You think they're going to keep these "clearly better choices because they're easy and don't require any synergy" around forever? If you look at what's going on, that stuff is getting scrubbed right out of the meta ( good riddance, imho ).

There are still some sensitive things about building for me however
Concetration is not about meta for me, its about theme flexibility (and for Chilled form case just Icon A E S T H E T I C S )

Let's see, my first FF character was a Range TK DPS (EGO-CON-REC) then TK revamped happened and we got Mental Precision
Did i accepted Mental Precision in my build? HECK NO I DIDN'T because my build had been always focused on EGO and I had no intention to retcon to get DEX so i sticked with Concentration

however I accepted Spellcaster for my FF Magic DPS and I would be a total ful if I used Concentration on a Soul Beam build
as well as Sharp Shooter which Im using on a Munition Tank, but NOT on my Munition DPS
I LOVED Mental Discliple change for my melee TK DPS
and im going to use Power Source for a Elecetric-Magnetism Tank

Particle Accelerator not so much... but again I disliked the LS Revamped since they ruined Plasma Cutter and the rapturing mechanic

spinnytop wrote: »

Just do me one favor: when/if it does happen... at least try it out before you leave a long angry forum post about it

No reason for that, I will just claim Defeat and have Mad_World.mp3 playing on the background （´＿｀）
Complaining when this happen would be pointless because DEV's actions are adamant, even if those actions ruins multiply characters' builds... again... being stuck inside PW for 6 hours is NOT FUN
But until then, I'm waiting DEVs' official words about this

I also predict that some things might get revamped like Haymaker losing some DPS and requiring you to take an 2 point adv that buffs the power for every stack of Reckless

I also predict that Gadgets and Archery will get their own Toggles

spinnytop · August 2017

jonesing4 said:
If they decide that I need to re-gear, re-spec, completely re-do ~50 characters for no discernible reason, they've essentially told me to **** off. There is a 99% chance I just switch to more reading and less (no) CO at that point.

Strange. I would have thought someone with that level of alt-itis would take the more logical route of forgetting about those old characters and just take the opportunity to make a whole bunch of new ones using the new meta instead.

avianos said:

being stuck inside PW for 6 hours is NOT FUN

Well then you should've stuck to archetypes u3u

jaazaniah1 · August 2017

Umm, no! I only have 35 lvls 40s and I enjoy playing them all. Because of the way I play and enjoy the game it takes me usually 3 months to level up a character and equip it to the standards that makes the game fun and enjoyable for me. That's a lot of time invested and I am not simply going to dump them. So, when they make major changes to the game I do go in and rework the affected characters so that I still enjoy playing them. I'm still working my way through the Ego Surge changes that affected most of my characters. I'm not going to try to speed level a bunch of new characters because I just don't enjoy playing that way.

spinnytop said:

Strange. I would have thought someone with that level of alt-itis would take the more logical route of forgetting about those old characters and just take the opportunity to make a whole bunch of new ones using the new meta instead.

roughbearmattach · August 2017

I have about 12 characters that "need" a respec because of a powerset change. I do one every now and then when there is no Cosmic or event for me to do.

These alts I use for Vigilance farming, basically, so no biggie. I can still play them without the respec, good enough for doing alerts, anyway.

When I change affects one of my main 8 characters, I do the respec right away.

jonesing4 · August 2017

> @spinnytop said:
> Strange. I would have thought someone with that level of alt-itis would take the more logical route of forgetting about those old characters and just take the opportunity to make a whole bunch of new ones using the new meta instead.

Logical for you, not logical for me.

avianos · September 2017

So something I noticed that I would like to point out which I didn't mention

The new forms are Excellent for TANK builds
the latest one we got, Power Source, is a bright example

also CON primary for tanking became more attractive with the introduction of said forms

Specific synergies actually EMBRACE synergy between specific frameworks

Both TK forms can be trigger by FEAR since its tagged as mental state
Spellcaster can be triggered by Devoid and Debilitating Poison because they are tagged as CURSE
Sharp Shooter just needs you to be Furious and Critical hit the very least to trigger it

there are synergies people seem to ignore

spinnytop wrote: »

Strange. I would have thought someone with that level of alt-itis would take the more logical route of forgetting about those old characters and just take the opportunity to make a whole bunch of new ones using the new meta instead.

-GASP- This is not OK Spinny

theravenforce · September 2017

Hrm...on this topic...

I think that Concentration, Compassion & Manipulator should remain with their current scaling.

I would hope that the intention is to make those three available forms for CROSS FRAMEWORK builds or for other builds, whilst each set has a Frame work specific form which scales with a specific stat in order to promote single set builds.

A number of sets do things which don't all fit into DPS, I would hate to think that all healing would be limited to Celestial's form (if and when it gets one) or all things related to what CO defines as 'Crowd Control' shoved solely into [~~You may not use this word~~], forcing all healers to have similar builds from Celestial and all 'CCers' to have similar builds from [~~You may not use this word~~].

Anyway, we'll all have to wait and see what happens next.

spinnytop · September 2017

theravenforce said:
I would hope that the intention is to make those three available forms for CROSS FRAMEWORK builds or for other builds, whilst each set has a Frame work specific form which scales with a specific stat in order to promote single set builds.

Sure, if you can think of a way to make them only work well for CROSS FRAMEWORK builds, and not EVERY SINGLE BUILD UNDER THE SUN. :'3

"Oh look at all these cool powers... huh this one power is better than all of them... guess I'll ignore all those other powers and only ever use this one." Seems familiar o3o

theravenforce · September 2017

spinnytop said:
Sure, if you can think of a way to make them only work well for CROSS FRAMEWORK builds, and not EVERY SINGLE BUILD UNDER THE SUN. :'3

"Oh look at all these cool powers... huh this one power is better than all of them... guess I'll ignore all those other powers and only ever use this one." Seems familiar o3o

I guess that's where freedom of choice comes in?

Right now, we're in a unique position where in set forms do exist, but so do cross framework forms...people have not ignored in set forms and disregarded them...people do use them.

Just because everyone doesn't use them and doesn't limit themselves to one or two sets doesn't necessarily make that bad.

I'm not much of a fan of how DEX has been forced down the throat of ranged TK by creating a form which specifically scales with DEX for ranged purposes...when it is more than obvious that Ego is the stat it really should be using.

I know there's a desire to move away from STR and EGO based forms, but I can't honestly see Might using Constitution for its stacking form, can you?

That is where the problem lies I think, I don't foresee Enrage being changed away from STR at all. It'd cause a "massive upset", obviously I could be very wrong and it is changed tomorrow or next week to scale with PRE or something but basically what I'm trying (and failing to get across at 5AM) is that I would not like to see a cross frame work style Ranged Damage Form like Concentration to be axed or limited to one set in favour of making other stacking forms which could potentially be tedious to stack or unfriendly to dual set builds.

Whilst yes, I like the fact that there are more forms coming into the game, it doesn't HAVE to take away the ability to freely form your character...does it?

spinnytop · September 2017

theravenforce said:
I guess that's where freedom of choice comes in?

Yeah cause that worked out so well all these years due to gamers taking it upon themselves to take worse stuff just to make sure everything in a game is being used. *in the distance someone yells "Dominant Strategyyyyyyyy!"* o3o

theravenforce said:
Whilst yes, I like the fact that there are more forms coming into the game, it doesn't HAVE to take away the ability to freely form your character...does it?

It doesn't. By making them "just another choice" rather than "the obvious best choice" it increases your real choices... and how can you freely form your character without having a lot of real choices? See the thing is when you say "cross framework", that's misleading because those forms aren't "cross framework" forms... they're "all framework" forms, in the same way that Ego Surge was the "all builds AO". You don't need concentration or chilled form to make cross framework builds - not every power in your bar needs to proc your form. If your build is a mix of powers from a bunch of frameworks then you just have to choose the form that looks like it will work best with your build, which might take a bit of thought and creativity and experimentation. That can only really exist when there isn't something that makes the best choice for you. Sure, sometimes people might take the worse choice "for lulz", just like some people go through dark souls naked using only their fists sometimes, but you want people taking these things "for serious", not just "for the sake of using it even though it's objectively worse".

As for mentalist powers should be using Ego.. meh, I'm not looking at my character sheet while I play, and I firmly believe that Ego on the character sheet is different from the damage type. Ego on the character sheet is a characteristic of a person - the ego damage type is that pink stuff that mentalists poop out their brain. As for Enrage using Constitution, I don't see any indication that that's gonna happen.

jonesing4 · September 2017

Is it advantageous for forms to present difficulties in stat and power choices? Let's say everyone chooses one of four forms that are better than others... why is this a problem?

Unknown · September 2017

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spinnytop · September 2017

jonesing4 said:
Is it advantageous for forms to present difficulties in stat and power choices? Let's say everyone chooses one of four forms that are better than others... why is this a problem?

Yes it is, because it makes building a more creative endeavor. When everyone is using the same form it's a lost opportunity. Sure in your opinion it may not be whatever, but objectively it adds more to the decision making process when making a character. Regardless of opinion, there is more thought involved in deciding which form to use than there is in just taking the same form each time. One of the thing a freeform system needs to be is interesting and engaging. Mechanical distinctiveness is important, and every opportunity to increase it should be taken. If we're all just using the same powers without having to think about what we're choosing and the only differences in our characters are superficial, we might as well be playing ATs.

Is it advantageous for everyone to be using the same form? Sure it makes building simpler, but is simpler actually a goal to strive for? Let's say everyone has to pick from a number of possible forms, none of them being the obvious best, and has to put some thought into which they're going to pick for their build... why is this a problem?

aesica · September 2017

spinnytop wrote: »

Is it advantageous for everyone to be using the same form? Sure it makes building simpler, but is simpler actually a goal to strive for? Let's say everyone has to pick from a number of possible forms, none of them being the obvious best, and has to put some thought into which they're going to pick for their build... why is this a problem?

It's only a problem if picking the "right" form interferes with picking the powers that best fit one's character theme, which can often be the case if you're trying something cross-framework/fun. (Thank [insert god of choice here] for concentration, chilled form, and form of the tempest) In the world of superhero fiction, nobody looks at Wolverine and asks, "each time claws a person to make them bleed, does he gain a stack of Focus to increase his damage?" or "does Batman gain stacks of Bat Stance from his ranged attacks or his melee attacks?" Of course not, because forms aren't really even a part character of theme. They're a stupid, sometime unpleasant hoop you have to jump through to bring your damage and energy returns up to acceptable levels, and frankly, they're one of the most asinine mechanics I've ever seen in any mmo. Thankfully, I've yet to see anything like them exist outside CO.

Unknown · September 2017

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jonesing4 · September 2017

spinnytop said:
Yes it is, because it makes building a more creative endeavor. When everyone is using the same form it's a lost opportunity. Sure in your opinion it may not be whatever, but objectively it adds more to the decision making process when making a character. Regardless of opinion, there is more thought involved in deciding which form to use than there is in just taking the same form each time. One of the thing a freeform system needs to be is interesting and engaging. Mechanical distinctiveness is important, and every opportunity to increase it should be taken. If we're all just using the same powers without having to think about what we're choosing and the only differences in our characters are superficial, we might as well be playing ATs.

Is it advantageous for everyone to be using the same form? Sure it makes building simpler, but is simpler actually a goal to strive for? Let's say everyone has to pick from a number of possible forms, none of them being the obvious best, and has to put some thought into which they're going to pick for their build... why is this a problem?

I get what you're saying, and I'm not unsympathetic to it. I like having to make tough choices, and figuring out the best way to mash weird powers together. At the same time, there's a ceiling to how many possibly conflicting/incompatible mechanics you want to have, or in how many types of powers you want those things present.

So, with stats, for instance. Right now we've gotta consider (1) energy unlocks, (2) forms, (3) primary SS tree. Three things to primarily worry about when choosing your SS's, that's not bad. If passive scaled off of different SS's, that might start to get obnoxious and difficult to manage. If attack powers each had stats they scale with, it would become very confusing and completely frustrating. Some challenge in that "creative endeavor" is good; too much is bad. I like putting thought into my builds, but I don't want it to have to become a second profession because it's so complex. That's hyperbole, but hopefully you get the general point.

In this specific circumstance, mainly two things bother me (hypothetically speaking, since we don't even know for sure if Concentration, etc. will be changed/ruined):

1) As stated earlier, the longer the game is around and the longer certain systems/powers/stats have behaved the way they currently do, the more disheartening it is to have them totally overhauled. If you've been making dozens of characters for years, and your ranged characters use Concentration, while your melee characters use FotX, those characters are all geared a certain way. You've built them in ways you're content with, you did what was necessary to gear them to a level you're comfortable with, and you simply enjoy playing them in the same way you have for years. If you log on next week to find that 60 of your toons will require retcons and re-gearing... well, there would need to be good reasoning for the devs to do that. I'm not seeing it yet.

2) The current/'new' style of forms doesn't really seem to be adding any interesting choices, assuming all forms are brought in line with the recent ones we've received. So, right now there are (let's say) 4 forms people use, and the only decision is what kind of character you're playing (ranged, melee, healing, control). If it was changed to 12 forms people use, but the only decision is what powersets you use (ice, electricity, sorcery, etc.), you aren't adding a layer of complexity or creativity.

You're just limiting what out-of-set powers you can effectively use in your builds, and making stat choices more unnecessarily narrow. "I want to shoot lightning, guess I have to pick up END." That's not appreciably better than, "I want to shoot ANYTHING, guess I have to pick INT/EGO."

Ideally, I'd like to see set-specific forms with narrow triggering mechanics that give a more robust bonus, and general forms that give a smaller bonus. Then there's actually a choice to make, and you lose something for gaining something. You can pick a form that you can only build up with lightning's special mechanic, and gain 12% damage per stack; or, you can pick a form that any ranged stuff will build, and gain 9% damage per stack. Specialize, or spread it out? That's a real choice, and it's not one that's present now, and won't be present if everything is just changed to be 'This powerset's form'.

jonesing4 · September 2017

Flip, that was long. Sorry, kudos to those who actually read it all.

aesica · September 2017

gradii wrote: »

SWTOR and FFXIV have "forms" or "stances" but they don't stack and are just used as ways to swap your build functionality based
on the situation, any class with a stance will have at least 2.

Yup, wow had those too for the longest time, but got rid of them because they were mostly pointless. Warrior stances, death knight presences, etc. These were more comparable to swapping out passives via loadout buttons than CO's toggled forms though.

These stances/forms were mostly stupid and pointless because your current specialization is what determines your role. Only druid forms remain, but even those are mostly flavor--turning into a cat, bear, mutant fatty owlthing, etc. A guardian druid (bear/tank) can't just switch to cat form and do proper dps, just like a frost death knight (dps) can't expect to activate blood presence (tank stance) and do anything other than draw aggro and get killed.

Unknown · September 2017

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theravenforce · September 2017

spinnytop said:

theravenforce said:
I guess that's where freedom of choice comes in?
Yeah cause that worked out so well all these years due to gamers taking it upon themselves to take worse stuff just to make sure everything in a game is being used. *in the distance someone yells "Dominant Strategyyyyyyyy!"* o3o

Nevertheless, people ARE making use of Mental Discipline instead of FoTT and people ARE making use of Power Source instead of Concentration.

It does happen as there is a freedom of choice. Not everyone has a build which is mostly drawn from one set, most people might but when cherry picking powers (two from Fire, Two from Ice, One from Wind and One From Earth and say one from Psychology)

What happens when this imaginary person wants to use this build in a ranged capacity? Currently there is an option for that. Whilst yes, in this example, this is an imaginary person. I'm pretty sure it is possible to craft a build using that set up if you wanted to.

What I'm saying is, this option doesn't need to vanish.

spinnytop said:

theravenforce said:
Whilst yes, I like the fact that there are more forms coming into the game, it doesn't HAVE to take away the ability to freely form your character...does it?
It doesn't. By making them "just another choice" rather than "the obvious best choice" it increases your real choices... and how can you freely form your character without having a lot of real choices? See the thing is when you say "cross framework", that's misleading because those forms aren't "cross framework" forms... they're "all framework" forms, in the same way that Ego Surge was the "all builds AO".

I'm glad you agree the option doesn't need to vanish.

Concentration is literally just another choice, in its current form, due to the way some power sets lack a form power, removing or limiting it would be unnecessary.

Just like how not everyone with EGO PSS uses Concentration over Chilled Form...those are two valid options, but people are able to choose which one they want.

I have in the past opted for: END PSS w/ Concentration Form and I am sure some still do today.

You're right though, I should call it what it really is:

Enrage, Concentration, Compassion & Manipulator are all technically "ALL FRAMEWORK" toggle form options. By existing they allow players to mix and match various different power sets and still remain somewhat strong by having broad trigger conditions.

^ I personally don't have a problem with this.

Power Source, Mental Discipline, Mental Precision, Spellcaster, Particle Accelerator, Sharpshooter, Aspect of the Bestial & Aspect of the Infernal are all "Set and/ or Mechanic Specific" toggle forms which are there to promote a pathway which makes use of in set mechanics and are for builds which largely focus on an inset mechanic.

^ I personally don't have a problem with this either.

I realize I have omitted the Martial Art forms, mostly because they are quite versatile as well but are mostly intended for DEX MA uses.

So from where I am sitting...there are plenty of choices, and as the second group continues to grow there will be more choices over all from both groups, all of which are very real and valid.

spinnytop said:
You don't need concentration or chilled form to make cross framework builds - not every power in your bar needs to proc your form.

That's very true, although I think it useful to have a healthy amount of powers in your bar which proc your form.

spinnytop said:
If your build is a mix of powers from a bunch of frameworks then you just have to choose the form that looks like it will work best with your build, which might take a bit of thought and creativity and experimentation. That can only really exist when there isn't something that makes the best choice for you.

Hmm...example:

I tried mixing PA and Electricity and using Power Source as the form power. I took several PA powers and Electric Current and Ball Lightning w/ Targeting Computer.

Now, whilst I could stack my form, it was so horrifically clunkly for me to use I had to find another solution to my problem, which in part made me sacrifice what I wanted to build like in order to be effective.

Concentration may be a superior choice in terms of scaling, but as everyone builds differently, some may be more interested in the mechanics of a build and how it interacts with the combat side of things in order to determine: "Yes, I want to use Power Source".

Ex: Post Review, I could have changed literally nothing on my previous Electric DPS and taken Concentration and still be firing off high damage. However, knowing that we had a form called: POWER SOURCE and it gave stacks of UNTAPPED POWER...and my character's concept was "unlimited energy being", it gnawed at me that I wasn't using this form...so I changed. Underwent a bit of a damage and survival nerf and ended up with Power Source as my form power.

^ That's an active and real example of someone making a choice in this situation.

spinnytop said:
As for mentalist powers should be using Ego.. meh, I'm not looking at my character sheet while I play, and I firmly believe that Ego on the character sheet is different from the damage type. Ego on the character sheet is a characteristic of a person - the ego damage type is that pink stuff that mentalists poop out their brain.

I was actually thinking more about the boosts that Ego innately grants namely 'ranged damage boost' which is why I wasn't happy with Mental Precision's scaling.

I've had Ego Damage builds which used Presence as their main stat before, so that wasn't really my issue with it.

spinnytop said:
As for Enrage using Constitution, I don't see any indication that that's gonna happen.

Interesting you should say that, I'm trying to think of scenarios recently where melee forms and/or sets have been adversely affected by reviews.

Then again, I don't see it happening either.

Unknown · September 2017

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roughbearmattach · September 2017

I'd be unsuprised if Enrage stopped scaling with Strength, and Concentration stopped scaling with Ego. This would limit the double-dipping effect that these forms have on DPS.

Unknown · September 2017

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theravenforce · September 2017

gradii said:
One power from psychology? Psychology powerset, you sit the villain down and ask them "how does that make you feel?"

?? What are you talking about?

EDIT: Nevermind:

theravenforce said:

It does happen as there is a freedom of choice. Not everyone has a build which is mostly drawn from one set, most people might but when cherry picking powers (two from Fire, Two from Ice, One from Wind and One From Earth and say one from Psychology)

I've been working way too hard it seems (finishing off my Post Grad studies in various Psych fields). I think I may have meant...something...else. I can't even think what I would put there, closest I could imagine is [~~You may not use this word~~], but that wasn't even related to what I wanted to say there.

I think I'll leave it in there as a testament to how incoherent that post was lol

Unknown · September 2017

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theravenforce · September 2017

roughbearmattach said:
I'd be unsuprised if Enrage stopped scaling with Strength, and Concentration stopped scaling with Ego. This would limit the double-dipping effect that these forms have on DPS.

Concentration, unfortunately, I could see happening.

Enrage, I'd be hard pressed to see that happening for a number of reasons:

Knock is still seen as a valid form of play and combat, a bit like it's parent mechanic (*whispers* Crowd Control) (for now).

Knock is mostly based on two different stats: EGO and STR.

Three distinct power sets make heavy use of knocks to achieve whatever theme/ power group they are trying to represent, namely Might, Heavy Weapons & Force.

I think there'd have to be a mechanics overhaul and re distribution of what stats do what in terms of innate bonuses in order to make changes to Enrage "acceptable".

I don't think there's much hope for Ego sadly, but that's a little unsurprising.

On a more positive note, we could all be incredibly wrong and new forms are just being created as alternate routes to "Concentration, Compassion, Manipulator", whilst still keeping them as options.

avianos · September 2017

roughbearmattach wrote: »

I'd be unsuprised if Enrage stopped scaling with Strength, and Concentration stopped scaling with Ego. This would limit the double-dipping effect that these forms have on DPS.

Is this a new one? Its even dumber than the Concentration not scaling with Ego
What logic is this? I'm holding myself back to not overreacted but this is stupid
This doesnt even make sense thematically and goes against the Brick powerframe

avianos · September 2017

So tell me, If Concentration lose Ego scaling AND Chilled Form lose Ego scaling
and then we get NO toggle form which scale with Ego for some dumb reason (and if we do get it would be gimmicky and have 0% synergy with range TK)

What toggle am I suppose to use on my 5 years old TK Range build that theme alone is EGO
DO NOT SAY MENTAL PRECISION, i did not build this character to be DEX DPS and there is no way im going to change this, neither change any of the stat into DEX

Mental Precision goes against my aesthetics, themes, character's build, story and gameplay style

if they do this, I would find this outright insulting, they deny me the choice of being EGO dps

and once again there are ATs without INT that use Concetration
there are making new forms to variety and interesting combos, not to nerf existing ones

theravenforce · September 2017

avianos said:
So tell me, If Concentration lose Ego scaling AND Chilled Form lose Ego scaling

and then we get NO toggle form which scale with Ego for some dumb reason (and if we do it would be gimmicky and have 0% synergy with range TK)

What toggle am I suppoce to use on my 5 years old TK Range build that theme alone is EGO

DO NOT SAY MENTAL PRECISION, i did not build this character to be DEX DPS and there is no way im going to change this, neither change any of the stat into DEX

Mental Precision goes against my aesthetics, themes, character's build, story and gameplay style

if they do this, I would find this outright insulting, they deny me the choice of being EGO dps

and once again there are ATs without INT that use Concetration

there are making new forms to variety and interesting combos, not to nerf existing ones

I totally feel you on this point.

I was VERY disappointed that Mental Precision did not scale with EGO. That was quite a slap in the face.

Concentration feels right IMO, but that's completely out of our hands.

theravenforce · September 2017

avianos said:

Is this a new one? Its even dumber than the Concentration not scaling with Ego

What logic is this? I'm holding myself back to not overreacted but this is stupid

This doesnt even make sense thematically and goes against the Brick powerframe

Enrage thingy was me, not Rough.

I tried to compare it to Conc as to how silly it would be to rip Ego from Concentration.

aesica · September 2017

theravenforce wrote: »

You're right though, I should call it what it really is:

Enrage, Concentration, Compassion & Manipulator are all technically "ALL FRAMEWORK" toggle form options. By existing they allow players to mix and match various different power sets and still remain somewhat strong by having broad trigger conditions.

^ I personally don't have a problem with this.

Power Source, Mental Discipline, Mental Precision, Spellcaster, Particle Accelerator, Sharpshooter, Aspect of the Bestial & Aspect of the Infernal are all "Set and/ or Mechanic Specific" toggle forms which are there to promote a pathway which makes use of in set mechanics and are for builds which largely focus on an inset mechanic.

^ I personally don't have a problem with this either.

I'd actually say the only true "all framework" forms are Concentration, Chilled Form, Form of the Tiger, and Form of the Tempest because their requirements are so vague. Incidentally, this is why they're my favorites. Charge a melee power halfway, charge a ranged power halfway or use it at range, deal a critical hit, etc.

All of the others (Compassion, Manipulator, Aspect of the Bestial, Spellcaster, Enrage, etc) are more mechanic specific. Granted, Knocks and heals are everywhere which makes Enrage and Compassion usable by a lot of frameworks, but there's still several frameworks which can't make proper use of these forms versus others which make heavy use and thus are ideal. It's more a matter of how widespread the mechanic they're locked behind is. If we had lots of ways to apply Negative Ions outside Electricity and knocks were much rarer, Power Source could easily find itself switching places with Enrage in terms of cross-framework usability.

sterga · September 2017

"there are making new forms to variety and interesting combos, not to nerf existing ones"

Mental Discipline got "standardized". Pretty sure it buffed melee and ranged TK equally and gave a damage boost based on ranks. That's a nerf to flexibility and variety.

Gain a stack on {action} that scales with {stat}. Buffs {x} a lot and buffs {y} a little. Get ({stat} x .125) energy on stack gain or refresh. Lasts 20s. Max 8 stacks. Can only gain a stack every 4s.

Variations yes. Variety no. Forms offer energy and more damage / heals / cc. Nothing about them is interesting. New forms do more to restrict interesting combos than to promote them.

If Enrage was changed to not use Str scaling, I would call BS as AotB still uses Str scaling. Same goes for Concentration and Chilled Form not using ego when AotI exists. Supernatural forms weren't nerfed in their (multiple) framework updates. Build diversity is already hurt by not needing to choose between high / modest damage, crits, and defense pen since it's so easy to have all three and so stupid not to have them all.

avianos · September 2017

sterga wrote: »

Mental Discipline got "standardized". Pretty sure it buffed melee and ranged TK equally and gave a damage boost based on ranks. That's a nerf to flexibility and variety.

Gain a stack on {action} that scales with {stat}. Buffs {x} a lot and buffs {y} a little. Get ({stat} x .125) energy on stack gain or refresh. Lasts 20s. Max 8 stacks. Can only gain a stack every 4s.
.

Well yeah, but in exchange Melee Ego Blades got BUFFED and got a super easy to build Melee Form, I no longer need to use Form of the Tempest
so personally im O.K with this standardization
Im a fun of DEX melee DPS, cannot say the range however

PLUS they didnt do the same BS they did with Single Blade, Bestial and Laser sword, you are not forced to use a form to have 100% chance to apply ego leech, instead you are using in set buff to do that and im very happy with that, we skipped this standardized which I personally hate

as for the field with forms that scale both Melee and Range, Im indifferent and I have builds that use both melee and range

sterga · September 2017

Ego blades lost the ability to have a form stacking with it's damage buffing stat. No other melee lost that ability. Enrage forms still exist if you want to go heavy into str and have a form that is fairly simple to stack. Mental Discipline is the exact same form as FotT but with a less cross-frame friendly stack conditions. Your ability to have a dex based ego blades build would not have been taken away if Mental Discipline scaled with ego.

roughbearmattach · September 2017

I could see Enrage being made to scale with another stat. I wouldn't be happy about it, but it seems like it would match the general design philosophy being used these days.

The Problem with the New Forms

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