Archetype Changes Discussion Thread

kaiserin · January 2017

Please use this thread to discuss changes made to archetypes for this PTS update.

Archetypes
Note: Archetypes were always intended to follow the same diminishing returns that freeforms follow. The cause for this issue was discovered and the fix will eventually be applied to all archetypes. We are holding off on applying the fix to each archetype until the archetype has been reviewed.

We are open to making further changes to the current list of corrected archetypes, so please feel free to make suggestions.

The following archetypes have had their diminishing return calculation for damage corrected:

Automaton
Blade
Cybernetic Warrior
Devastator
Grimoire
Hexslinger
Invincible
Penitent
Predator
Rockstar
Savage
Specialist
Soldier
Unleashed
Witch

The Soldier
New power path:

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Holdout Shot OR Rifle Butt
8 Targeting Computer
11 Concentration
14 Shotgun OR Gatling Gun
17 Retaliation
21 Assault Rifle
25 Killer Instinct
30 Lock N Load OR Smoke Grenade
35 Frag Grenade OR Concussion Grenade
40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket

The Unleashed
New power path:

1 Rain of Steel
2 Blade Tempest
6 Form of the Tempest
8 Way of the Warrior
11 Force Snap or Strike Down
14 Force Eruption or Eye of the Storm
17 Bountiful Chi Resurgence or Mind Wipe
21 Dragon's Wrath
25 Force Shield
30 Relentless
35 Intensity or Field Surge
40 Containment Field or Force Geyser

The Blade
Corrected diminishing returns.
New power progression:

1 Reaper's Touch
1 Reaper's Caress
6 Thunderbolt Lunge or Cut Down
8 Way of the Warrior
11 Scything Blade
14 Form of the Swordsman
17 Reaper's Embrace OR Dragon's Bite
21 Parry
25 Relentless
30 Smoke Bomb or Bountiful Chi Resurgence
35 Masterful Dodge OR Intensity
40 Shuriken Throw OR Chained Kunai

Specialist
Corrected diminishing returns.
New Stats: Dexterity Primary. Constitution, Recovery secondary.
Renamed old specialist talent to The Assassin.
Added new Specialist talent.
New Power Progression:

1 Gunslinger
1 Burst Shot OR Blade Tempest
6 Holdout Shot OR Trip Wire
8 Lightning Reflexes OR Way of the Warrior
11 Form of the Tempest
14 Eye of the Storm
17 Breakaway Shot OR Strike Down
21 Two Gun Mojo OR Dragon's Wrath
25 Relentless
30 Parry
35 Masterful Dodge OR Lock N Load
40 Lead Tempest OR Sword Cyclone

New Archetype: The Gunslinger

1 Gunslinger
1 Burst Shot
6 Holdout Pistol OR Pistol Whip
8 Composure
11 Parting Shot OR Breakaway Shot
14 Sharp Shooter
17 Two Gun Mojo OR Bullet Ballet
21 Antagonize OR Retaliation
25 Killer Instinct
30 Lead Tempest
35 Masterful Dodge OR Lock N Load
40 Sniper Rifle OR Execution Shot

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What happens

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Please format any suggestions you have in the following format:
Suggestion
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nbkxs · January 2017

You have made me smile this day, finally; at LAST!

kamokami · January 2017

kaizerin said:

The Unleashed

New power path:
1 Rain of Steel

2 Blade Tempest

6 Form of the Tempest

8 Unstoppable

11 Force Snap or Strike Down

14 Force Eruption or Eye of the Storm

17 Bountiful Chi Resurgence or Mind Wipe

21 Dragon's Wrath

25 Force Shield

30 Relentless

35 Intensity or Field Surge

40 Containment Field or Force Geyser

Suggestion
Make it a choice to take Way of the Warrior on the Unleashed so that it can have some synergy with Bountiful Chi.

Also give the AT a power that has a healing adv such as Restoration on it.

pantagruel01 · January 2017

Those appear to be builds that are recently updated. Some comments:
Automaton
While the automaton was remade for the power armor update, it's still a bad build:

There's not really reason for multiple cylinders; it should have rocket punch or chest beam, not both, and your other choice(binding shot) is almost totally useless on a dps build.
While a ranged build can maybe make use of one 'stay away from me' power, there's not really a good reason for two of them (levels 14 and 21).
MSA is for builds that have short cooldown powers as part of their regular attack rotation. The Automaton doesn't (its cooldown powers will be used rarely).
Nanobot Swarm is for builds that have multiple regularly used medium to long cooldown powers, such as active offenses and defenses. The Automaton doesn't.

The Invincible
Power Armor toggles just don't work for tanking; their interaction with blocking is too glitchy, and ranged tanking in general is iffy in CO right now. It would probably be fine if converted to a Hybrid. Also, the level 35 choices are problematic because they directly conflict with level 1 and 6 choices.

On the other hand, there's a couple other ATs that I'd consider for adding to this list, as they have very high damage output and are mostly solidly constructed:
The Behemoth: could use Str PSS instead of Con PSS, but otherwise a super-solid build.
The Blade: scything blade is pretty useless, shuriken toss is a bit of a trap choice (maybe replace with Chained Kunai), but it's otherwise a solid single blade setup.
The Fist: has redundant stuns (crashing wave kick/dragon kick) and knocks (rising knee/dragon uppercut), but otherwise a solid unarmed setup.
The Icicle: it's a cold dps build; surprised it wasn't on the list given when it came out.

kallethen · January 2017

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Those appear to be builds that are recently updated. Some comments:
Automaton
While the automaton was remade for the power armor update, it's still a bad build:

There's not really reason for multiple cylinders; it should have rocket punch or chest beam, not both, and your other choice(binding shot) is almost totally useless on a dps build.
While a ranged build can maybe make use of one 'stay away from me' power, there's not really a good reason for two of them (levels 14 and 21).
MSA is for builds that have short cooldown powers as part of their regular attack rotation. The Automaton doesn't (its cooldown powers will be used rarely).
Nanobot Swarm is for builds that have multiple regularly used medium to long cooldown powers, such as active offenses and defenses. The Automaton doesn't.

1. Actually, I feel that the first power choice should have been Power Gauntlet or Rocket Punch and have something else as a choice along with Binding Shot at level 8. Currently, If you take Rocket Punch on the level 8 choice, you end up with two Blast powers that do almost the same damage, and thus are redundant (which was a problem the AT originally had).

2. I use Binding shot as a trigger for MSA, and also took the Trapped specialization on the Overseer tree to provide an debuff. Tap Binding shot for the debuff, then spam your DPS powers. Makes the power not worthless for a DPS role.

3. That the mine powers (Particle Mine or Mini Mines) are a bit of an odd duck in the build. Especially with the proposed change to make Mini Mines melee damage (this is a Ranged DPS AT). I chose Mini Mines simply for it's shorter cooldown.

sterga · January 2017

The Soldier

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Holdout Shot
For healing. Does there need to be any other reason?

8 Targeting Computer
11 Killer Instinct
Leveling shouldn't suck due to energy issues.

14 Concentration
17 Frag Grenade or Incendiary Grenade
They both have similar function and make sense to be paired together.

21 Assault Rifle or Gattling Gun
Both powers will now serve the same purpose (high tier damage) and should be paired together. Smoke nades and gat gun are two totally different things serving different functions and don't make sense being paired.

25 Shotgun Blast or Smoke Grenade
Serve similar function of "get the eff off me". Pushed here because core powers should come first.

30 Retaliation
Block replacers are more useful at later levels where all of the harder content is. They aren't necessary early on where normal block is good enough.

35 Rocket or Sniper Rifle
The 35 to 40 leveling is painfully slow. Now everyone can enjoy getting all of their damage dealing powers before cap.

40 Lock N Load
Least important part of the build. It's sole function is to do more damage. It's the icing on the damage dealing cake.

The Unleashed

1 Rain of Steel
2 Blade Tempest
6 Steadfast
Relentless doesn't need to exist unless it actually works with out of set powers. Also: not really any bleeds in this build and I don't remember if Blade tempest applies shredded innately or not, but would still be the only way to apply at the end of the combo, forcing people to use that power to use their EU instead of allowing them the choice of ignoring Blade Tempest.

8 Unstoppable
11 Bountiful Chi Resurgence
So people can actually heal at a decent level.
Bountiful Chi Resurgence VS Mind Wipe
Single target threat wipe which does nothing VS splash damage and other mobs or being able to heal myself whenever I need to? HMMMMM....

14 Force Snap or Strike Down
Force Snap kinda sucks for a melee toon and can't really compete with how much better a lunge is. The other powers are more important, so the lunge gets suck here.

17 Form of the Tempest
Forms still have a cost penalty. EUs do not.

21 Dragon's Wrath
25 Force Shield
30 Force Eruption or Eye of the Storm
Where else would it go?

35 Intensity or Field Surge
40 Containment Field or Force Geyser

reaperwithnoname · January 2017

baelogventure said:
When can we expect all of the ATs added to this list?
>Inb4 "Suggest some"
I'm suggesting ALL of the ATs be added to the "level playing field" of diminishing return calculation for damage.
First on the new list would be The Tempest.

ATs were previously on a level playing field. Their lack of diminishing returns made up for their lack of choice and fewer powers (let's be honest, the ability to take Rebirth was by itself better than anything ATs had to offer). For better or for worse, Archetypes are now officially going to become training wheel classes. This can be be justified for silver players on the basis that they don't automatically produce income for the game, but it does create a new problem in that gold players also have access to them, and there's now no reason for them to.

So as far as suggestions go, I'd say make all gold characters automatically FFs. There's no reason for them to have access to ATs any more. It's a straight downgrade.

qawsada · January 2017

reaperwithnoname#5949 said:

(let's be honest, the ability to take Rebirth was by itself better than anything ATs had to offer).

Incorrect. When I got to Gold, I took Rebirth for many of my FF only to find out that I didn't really need it at all for most of the content, and when did use them, I would end up dying by the effect or instantly by an aoe. By now, there is the pheonix device that does the same time at the cost of 5 GCR, in which case, that character should have already unlock and obtain everything from the GCR shop.

reaperwithnoname#5949 said:

For better or for worse, Archetypes are now officially going to become training wheel classes.

Half and Half. They are a training wheel but still offer as a class like any other mmo out there, and they work well as they intended to be. I would even argue this game has the most classes in any MMO out there. They can and will fill out the niche for a group, whether it dps, healer, or tank. Even then, their focus on their main build tend to be better than the FF counter part when you consider many players that did make FF characters end up being far worse than the AT of any role for the exchange of class building flexibility.

reaperwithnoname#5949 said:

This can be be justified for silver players on the basis that they don't automatically produce income for the game,

I was silver before the 4th of July 2016 and I can easily tell you that this is wrong. By the time I got LTS, I made enough income from doing Smash alone to get me +10 character slot, a hide out, and two Mark two Vehicles, and right now, AT have the Cosmic/TA option on top of Smash to generate income in this game.

reaperwithnoname#5949 said:

but it does create a new problem in that gold players also have access to them, and there's now no reason for them to.

Sure it does. I create them for giggles or testing out a power tree to see how it goes in an end game environment. If that wasn't the case, then it to prove that I can play AT at endgame content without any problem.

reaperwithnoname#5949 said:

So as far as suggestions go, I'd say make all gold characters automatically FFs. There's no reason for them to have access to ATs any more. It's a straight downgrade.

How about no? I enjoy playing AT and I consider in making more in the future. As you say before, AT are training wheels and despite Gold member having everything, they still need to learn the fundamental of those powers because just because you're Gold doesn't mean your FF is any better than an AT if they don't know how to utilized their build properly.

magpieuk2014 · January 2017

ATs are already vastly inferior to Freeforms in almost every respect, and these changes and the uprated enemies and end-game content are now going to leave them in the dust. Which is not a good advert for the game, regardless of how anyone feels. The "nah-nah, now they're being fixed so it's fair" tone is also not especially grown up, being based on the game as it was four or five years ago, not how it is now.

I'll test these builds out but I have two initial suggestions:

1) Anyone on a Gold account who has an AT should get a free Retrain for that character. Sometimes playing an AT is just simpler and more fun, but this is a massive nerf and if you'd known about it at the time, you'd probably have gone FF. You should be allowed to do so now.

2) Take the opportunity to change the power progressions so that ATs get all their powers by level 35, not 40. Getting an Ultimate Power at the moment your character ceases to be of much use has always vexed me. Let ATs have their fun at level 35-40, playing Rampages, Alerts and Levelling content, which is the right level for them, before they get filed away at 40.

riverocean · January 2017

magpieuk2014 said:
ATs are already vastly inferior to Freeforms in almost every respect, and these changes and the uprated enemies and end-game content are now going to leave them in the dust. Which is not a good advert for the game, regardless of how anyone feels. The "nah-nah, now they're being fixed so it's fair" tone is also not especially grown up, being based on the game as it was four or five years ago, not how it is now.

I'm a filthy silver now -- so we'll see how this plays out. Only two AT's greatly benefited (Tempest and Unleashed) from the lack of diminishing returns. The rest didn't have the utility or the hard hitting dps powers to really make use of it.

Those AT's are still going to out damage most poorly built FF builds. I actually predict we'll continue to see cries to nerf them.

*shrugs*

Overall the update to the progression looks OK. I'll probably dust off and retcon my solider when this rolls around.

nacito · January 2017

Suggestion
-now that DR is fixed for Savage, you guys wanna give him a choice for a offensive passive?
-and also make Behe power choice to make sense! like, review it, idk
my savage can't tank beyond alert content and his damage is so low :<... but for a reason I end up getting the agro of alert bosses anyways ._.

notyuu · January 2017

I've just got three things to say about these changes

1: the unleahsed should be able to pick between WoTW and Unstoppable, so it can work with BCR or gain a ton of knock resistance.

2: Given that the solider has to choose between rocket [a fast, moderate spike] and sniper rifle [a slow moderate spike (since the dt got changes)].. I have to ask.. when it sniper getting buffed to be...actually... ya know...useful, before it was only good on the solider AT cuz the DR thingy, which let you deal damage which was acceptible for a 4 second, full lockdown, damage intruputed, medium energy costing charged attack.

3: Fixing the DR issue on ATs, while I'm for it.. fundamentally I just want to point out that it would remove literally any reason for a gold member to use them....so in that vein, could you give out retrain tokens to the gold players that have ATs?

magpieuk2014 · January 2017

Fair enough, but a lot of those ATs have pretty serious build issues which were being glossed over by their damage output. I always gave up on the Tempest as a levelling build, for example, because it was too darn squishy. See also the Inferno. The Soldier and the Marksman pick up aggro they can't deal with and lots of them are just plain dull, espcially with the slower power progression. I agree that for the glass cannons, if it's possible during the end-game to set up a team system of shields and heals so that they get to use their high dps powers without dying all the time, then that needs tweaking, sure. But add DR first, then come back and get feedback on how ATs function after that change, don't start adding DR and changing powers and changing builds.... you'll end up with a mess, tbh.

With regards to the Soldier, I like Aesica's build better than the proposed one.

sterga · January 2017

chaelk wrote: »

assault rifle is single target, gattling is aoe. not the same at all

Gat gun can be perfectly fine for single target. Especially since The Soldier has tree talents to buff AoE attacks. That's how I built my soldier. If you think a power being tagged as an AoE means much, then 2gun must be a poo pile for single target.

spinnytop · January 2017

naciiito said:

spinnytop said:
I've had behemoths main tank TA for me. It went fine
I was talking about savage tho <-<</p>

I've had them off tank?

Bet you could main tank with threat mods

vonqball said:
Consider this carefully. this forum and the PTR are basically a gold-player echo chamber. The people that this is going to impact are not here.

However, many of us have experience with playing ATs back before the game got nerfed into ez-mode. ATs will be fine.

zamuelpwe · January 2017

Suggestion
For the Unleashed, swap the progression order of Form of the Tempest and Unstoppable. While forms usually grant energy, they also increase energy costs. This winds up being before the lunge or knockto so the player is likely to have a travel power on to get from spawn to spawn and thus have an even higher costs on the combo.

Suggestion
While a power suggestion as opposed to a direct progression suggestion, give Force Snap a Nailed to the Ground advantage to give it parity with the lunge.

-----

For as much as people complain about lack of aoe at low levels, lack of single target damage at low levels is going to make The Soldier struggle with some of the harder targets. Especially with SMG's energy cost and the lack of a 100 ft attack. The prior progression rewarded smart play while this has a few weird spots. I doubt it'll change much with AR as a T3 now, however:

Suggestion
For the Soldier, change the progression so that instead of the lvl 35 choice being Smoke Grenade or Gattling Gun, lvl 21 has a choice between Assault Rifle or Gattling Gun. They aren't exactly the same but have overlap in what they cover. If Gattling Gun is considered outright "better" that might say something about Assault Rifle's current Tier 3 status.

-----

The Automaton is still clunky but it does work better now. I actively use a Nanobot Swarm/recharge focused setup with Binding Shot and Energy Wave getting a fair bit of use. However, the energy builder is problematic since it turns off if you aren't facing a certain way instead of causing you to autoturn. Not sure if it's a bug. The mines feel weird but I have no idea what a proper replacement would be. While the lvl 1 attacks seem like they'd be better if replaced with maintains but that's coming from the opinion of someone who tends to play in melee so Concentration doesn't proc then.

-----

Suggestion
I agree with the overall suggestion made to make the current lvl 40 power on ATs unlock at lvl 38 as a QoL adjustment. Lvl 40s still have the last specialization pick and endgame gear while the road to lvl 40 is a bit of a slog with how slow it goes.

chaelk · January 2017

My main acct is LTS- I have at's and FF on it., my gold acct has at's and FF on it, my silver acct has 21 at's(all at 40) and 1 FF on it. I see no reason to remove any of them.
NO, I'm not playing any of them to take advantage of the dr bug. I play them because I can. The only one I have given up on managing to get to 40 is the Behemoth

OH noes, my at's no longer get a free bonus. is what I'm hearing.
Mind you, this is after, "people are playing at's to take advantage of the bug"

some people LIKE to play fixed classes.
not everyone wants to play FF

I 'm willing to bet there will still be people who manage to get top dps on an AT. simply because they are better players and worked at it

vonqball · January 2017

sterga said:

Gat gun can be perfectly fine for single target. Especially since The Soldier has tree talents to buff AoE attacks. That's how I built my soldier. If you think a power being tagged as an AoE means much, then 2gun must be a poo pile for single target.

I disagree with this. There are times you want yer AR and there are times you want yer GG. A bunch of cosmics have mechanics that don't play nicely with AoE. Also, with no healing or defenses, the Soldier needs to be able to control the aggro he draws. Fire your GG into a mob.. and they're all going to come running.

riverocean · January 2017

naciiito said:
Suggestion
-now that DR is fixed for Savage, you guys wanna give him a choice for a offensive passive?
-and also make Behe power choice to make sense! like, review it, idk
my savage can't tank beyond alert content and his damage is so low :<... but for a reason I end up getting the agro of alert bosses anyways ._</b>.

That's because your Savage is still better built than some peoples ill-created and badly equipped FF's. You are out damaging them and stealing aggro. That's why I'm not overly concerned about DR being adjusted for FF's. And the Savage is actually comparable to very well built FF.

It's why I'm not overly upset over the DR changes. The best AT's are still going to kick @## in most PVE settings.

And about some others comments that Silvers don't generate income -- FALSE!!!!
Please let's not forget that silver playerspurchase Premium AT's with real world money. I've purchased Premium AT's, Hideout, Costume bits and cosmic keys. Just like quite a few other Silver players have.

sterga · January 2017

vonqball said:
I disagree with this. There are times you want yer AR and there are times you want yer GG. A bunch of cosmics have mechanics that don't play nicely with AoE. Also, with no healing or defenses, the Soldier needs to be able to control the aggro he draws. Fire your GG into a mob.. and they're all going to come running.

Cosmics having poor design shouldn't be a reason to not use Gat Gun or any other AoE as a single target. Something like that would bend over a PA build more than the soldier which can also take sniper rifle for safe DPS.

Last I checked, most mobs still have terrible AI and still can be thwarted with a flight power. Killing things before they touch you is also not terribly hard to do. It's not like someone can't use SMG or Shotgun for AoE and then have AR for single target.

Not convinced by a situational concern and a lack of playing smart. If you have a better suggestion, you can always share.

vonqball said:
Really? to hobble new players is the purpose of ATs in your mind? That is the purpose you feel they should serve? Not.. y'know help guide players into making good build choices.... nawww... just hobble em! Just give em a hero with some smashed kneecaps and let em craw around Millennium while I soar above in my gilded throne. Lol

A guide to making good build choices? Haha. No. When ATs were first introduced, there were endless suggestions on how to make them decent... And this is what we get. ATs are still largely built in a way that most decent FF builders wouldn't touch. It's completely inexcusable for the premium ones which are "only" $13, but can easily need another character slot.

xrazamax · January 2017

Suggestion:
Soldier needs holdout shot. It needs to be on there somewhere, somehow, someway.

vonqball · January 2017

Yeah, that proposed unleashed AT still looks like a good build.. and getting access to a lunge will be great. The Soldier actually looks worse than the one we currently have. Choosing between your 100' AoE and your threat wipe seems bad... no heal of any kind is still bad.

spinnytop · January 2017

xrazamax said:
Suggestion:
Soldier needs holdout shot. It needs to be on there somewhere, somehow, someway.

Replace the block replacer with holdout shot. Break this "every AT must have a block replacer" paradigm!

magpieuk2014 · January 2017

The Soldier needs a healing power or AD more than it needs a block replacer, most of the time, but I can't imagine surviving long under TA or Cosmic AoEs with basic block, no AD and no CON super stat.

There is a substantially better build out there (Aesica's one is a good start, although having played from level 6-10 on PTS I don't know whether you need Holdout Shot so early). Will have a think...

servantrules · January 2017

spinnytop said:

xrazamax said:
Suggestion:
Soldier needs holdout shot. It needs to be on there somewhere, somehow, someway.
Replace the block replacer with holdout shot. Break this "every AT must have a block replacer" paradigm!

While I agree Holdout Shot should be included (or have a "Field Medic" sort of power/advantage in the Munitions set available to the Soldier), removing the block replacer means the already squishy AT would have even more survival issues (kinda ironic).

kallethen · January 2017

zamuelpwe wrote: »

The Automaton is still clunky but it does work better now. I actively use a Nanobot Swarm/recharge focused setup with Binding Shot and Energy Wave getting a fair bit of use. However, the energy builder is problematic since it turns off if you aren't facing a certain way instead of causing you to autoturn. Not sure if it's a bug. The mines feel weird but I have no idea what a proper replacement would be. While the lvl 1 attacks seem like they'd be better if replaced with maintains but that's coming from the opinion of someone who tends to play in melee so Concentration doesn't proc then.

The turning off is a mechanic of the power. Power Armor powers have a firing degree arc and if something steps out of that arc powers deactivate. Honestly, I dislike that as much as everybody else...

qawsada · January 2017

I would agree that the choice between Gatling Gun and Threat Wipe/Smoke Grenade is kind of off. I would figure you would make it a choice between the other grenade instead of a long range aoe.

I don't actually mind not having Holdout but if it were given a choice, make it a choice from either Submachine Gun or Shotgun.

gemini2099 · January 2017

Feedback AT: Soldier

I will discuss the general changes and then the power progression for the new AT Soldier.

Smoke Grenade's new advantage threat wipe: Push

I have to see it working in game, but if it works reliably against ALL enemies that is probably pushing me towards calling it a plus for a squishy AT like the Soldier.

Assault Rifle Changes: Push

AR having more consistent damage regardless of how long maintained is a positive change. AR being turned into a cylinder attack seems strange as it is also your main single target attack. Wouldn't that make players feel bored of playing this AT haha? I discuss AR in greater detail a bit later on.

Frag Grenade: Positive

I like the changes to Frag Grenade as it can add synergy and interaction of gameplay especially with the advantage.

Incendiary Grenade: Positive

A different option is always welcomed.

Concussion Grenade: Positive

Baseline is functions as a knockback and with advantage it has added utility. Only problem I have is that this seems redundant with Shotgun Blast at level 6. Maybe the stun for Concussion Greande should be baseline instead? Then again if someone like throwing NPCs around with Shotgun blast and Concussion Grenade more power to them I guess haha.

Shotgun Blast: Positive

I like the potential synergy it has with advantage (Armor Piercing) and also options to knockback or knockdown.

[quote]1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Shotgun Blast
8 Targeting Computer
11 Frag Grenade or Concussion Grenade
14 Concentration
17 Retaliation
21 Assault Rifle
25 Killer Instinct
30 Lock N Load
35 Smoke Grenade or Gattling Gun
40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket[/quote]

The only thing I don't agree on is having to choose between Smoke Grenade and Gattling Gun. The first reasons is that while AR has an advantage to turn it into an AoE that doesn't feel right. Meaning you will be using AR for single target AND AoE? Hitting the same button for single target and AoE feels off IMO if you want to use a ranged build. Plus, it makes SMG pointless at that point no?

Next reason is that turning Smoke Grenade w/advantage into a threat wipe is interesting for a squishy AT like the Soldier. But the -perception often worked in a similar fashion but wasn't reliable going against AV or elite bosses. So, I am not decided yet if it will be a reasonable change, so I will take a wait and see approach. But a squishy AT shouldn't have to choose between a threat wipe (eg new Smoke Grenade) vs a long ranged AoE (Gattling) attack IMVHO.

Sub machinegun burst is awesome for general AoE, but its short range means you are forced to go in closer negating the point of Sniper Rifle/Rocket which you have to choose later anyways. Also, the knockback from Shotgun/new Concussion Grenade make it frustrating to use Sub machine gun burst. Actually the knockback effect from Concussion Grenade makes it easier to use cylinder AoE power like Gattlin Gun. So, in a way you are forced into taking the Concussion Grenade stun advantage to fully realize the sub machinegun AoE potential.

sterga · January 2017

SMG being a cone makes it better for AoE than a cylinder. Enemies have a tendency to wander around.

I don't see a problem with using a single power for both AoE and single target, if that's what someone wants to do. Chances are, it wouldn't just be one button push anyway because there would be utility powers in place of a dedicated AoE or single target. Especially with all of the new grenades that can be added to a build.

Shotgun taps are knock downs instead of making people fly all over the damn place. It can be used with SMG or it can be used in a dedicated shotgun build... If the damage doesn't end up as crap.

rtma · January 2017

@reaperwithnoname#5949 Freeform is just a tool, it's the Player behind it that makes the difference and that can tend to break things while the Devs suppose to fix what they can.

servantrules · January 2017

One thing about the Shotgun Blast tap being a Knockdown is it's viable for a Might/Munitions Enrage build. I think the idea with the charge up is that it allows you to cluster them close. In real life, Shotguns buckshot is more effective in short range, so the change seems appropriate.

magpieuk2014 · January 2017

Plus, it makes SMG pointless at that point no?

Well, no. AR's cylinder is narrow and much better at taking down static enemies at range. If they run at you, the chances are they'll move outside of the cylinder, and the effect is amplified the closer they get. That's when you need SMG, which has lost some damage but still works great as a close-in, wide-angle, spray-and-pray weapon and has great synergy with Shotgun blast.

Having played the Soldier AT at various levels on the way to 40 with average levelling gear I have to say it doesn't feel that nerfed. Your stats aren't high enough for DR to have much effect. The damage changes to Assault Rifle are probably of more concern to everyone - like most rebalanced Tier III powers, it feels distinctly lacklustre without significant investment in Critical hits.

I'd be interested to see how applying DR would affect those ATs who rely on high stats, though (the Grimoire, with its AoPM, for example), especially as it already had some key powers heavily nerfed in the last round of Tier III faff.

gemini2099 · January 2017

From my experience cylinder power positioning is simple....just move back and the positioning lends itself to clustering of NPCs which also maximizes shotgun's potential..

For SMG to be viable you have to be stationary (why do that on a squsihy AT like the soldier) or go all in kamikaze style haha. I have seen soldier builds fully utilizing SMG to great potential but I have also seen Gattlin Gun builds shredding from range as well.

It feels like the Soldier AT is being pigeonholed into a kamikaze spec without heals and short range attacks while having to choose between Gattlin Gun and Smoke Bomb. Currently on live you can build a short range or long range version of the soldier AT and either one functions fine.

As for the problem for AR being potentially the best cylinder and single target attack...this could lead to boredom if a player doesn't feel they have options for a single target rotation. Furthermore, it only reinforces that outside of AR you are stuck with short range Shotgun and SM.

If Sniper Rifle was re-worked in a way to be able to used in a rotation with AR that would solve a lot of problems in my opinion.

magpieuk2014 · January 2017

At the moment I think the Soldier does all of those things. If you fixed the bugs with Shotgun Blast then you have a viable set of powers - SMG/Shotgun/Concussion Grenades for close in fighting, Sniper/AR for range, Gatling and Rocket for mid-range/damage. Like this...

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Shotgun Blast
8 Targeting Computer
11 Fragmentation, Incendiary or Concussion Grenade (as amended)
14 Concentration
17 Killer Instinct
21 Assault Rifle or Gatling Gun
25 Holdout Shot or Smoke Grenade
30 Retaliation
35 Rocket or Sniper Rifle
40 Lock N Load

pantagruel01 · January 2017

btw, for those who wonder about the magnitude of the reduction, my Predator (548 Str, not max geared but well geared), at 8 stacks Enrage, suffered a 23% loss in damage. It remains a quite playable character.

gemini2099 · January 2017

AR becoming a cylinder with an advantage instantly makes it better than Gattlin. This is because AR doesn't root while Gattlign does. and why would you ever use SMG if you have Grenades/Shotgun?

SMG/Gattlin need to be re-imagined but that is my two cents on that haha. Or AR shouldn't be the workhorse of the AT soldier..it is no where near the potency that 2 gun mojo was but when you have a single power that does it all...it is just boring lol.

pantagruel01 · January 2017

So, actually taking a look at the revised soldier archetype, it still has fairly significant issues.

I'm going to start with an aesthetic issue, though fixing it helps some of the other problems. Go find an image of an actual soldier. You know what you see? One long-arm -- usually an AR, less commonly an SMG or shotgun. Incidentally, the CO costume creator is the same, it really only has one long gun costume (on the back).

The Soldier has 4 longarms (SMG, shotgun, AR, sniper rifle). I can sort of see three of them as the same weapon (SMG, AR, and sniper rifle), though if I'm doing that it's weird for the SMG to have a range of 50 (single shot being slightly better range than autofire I can understand). Shotgun I can't justify at all.
Suggestion

Delete Shotgun (will get into replacements later)
Add an advantage to SMG (Long Barrel, say) that makes it a 100'/30° cone and causes it to use your rifle model (most rifle models are already available for SMG).

The soldier also has potentially two support weapons (gatling and rocket), and typically a sniper (or designated marksman) doesn't have a squad support weapon anyway.

Now, for some build problems:

100' range attack powers are only useful if you can actually use them at 100'. All of the soldier's support powers (apply armor piercing or furious) are 50' range.
Gatling gun will usually be redundant with SMG.
Shotgun and the level 11 powers are semi-redundant. Of course, if deleting the shotgun this ceases to be a problem.

Thus, I'd propose something along these lines:

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Rifle Butt or Holdout Shot
8 Targeting Computer
11 Frag Grenade or Smoke Grenade.
14 Concentration
17 Retaliation
21 Assault Rifle or Hypothetical 50' attack power, likely SMG-based
25 Killer Instinct
30 Lock N Load
35 Hypothetical 100' range power that can apply armor piercing.
40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket.

magpieuk2014 · January 2017

It would be like a compulsory retcon, so you'd have to choose the AT's powers again, from the new selection, grunspel. But unless you've been stat maxing, I don't think you'll notice too much difference.

I have long wanted the munitions set to be revamped to allow for players to select a weapon of choice for the majority of powers.

So that would be "Pistol" (Base Damage) + another set of toggles to allow the Pistol to fire (say) Incendiary Rounds, Energy Blast, Armor Piercing Ammunition, each with their own damage boost / debuff properties?

That would be amazing: the single signature weapon with varying ammo is such a hero thing...it would enable people to make Judge Dredd type characters, too, which would be great.

gemini2099 · January 2017

It seems to me there is too much focus on damage numbers feedback. That can be tuned accordingly to what the CO devs have in mind in relations to FF or the paid AT.

What my concern is the build potentials and can they be fun? As others have said Soldier AT on live is fun. The proposed new AT soldier on the PTR has potential to be just as fun or greater. But this potential is not there yet, because the soldier AT needs a few tweaks.

If I was to build a new soldier AT using the new power progression here is how I would do it:

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Shotgun Blast
8 Targeting Computer
Concussion Grenade (w/ stun advantage)
14 Concentration
17 Retaliation
21 Assault Rifle
25 Killer Instinct
30 Lock N Load
35 Smoke Grenade (w/threat wipe advantage)
40 Sniper Rifle

This is an improvement from what I play with on live with Soldier in many ways. The only thing that is going to sting is the loss of Gattlin Gun, which devalues the use of Sniper Rifle as an alpha opener. But teleport ----> Shotgun+SMG will have to do for my playstyle I suppose (plus it is fun haha).

deadman20 · February 2017

Personally, I'm not sure I would try to reassemble the Soldier AT right now. The current adjustments to Munitions make it a little odd to gauge power choices against one another. Smoke Grenade or Gatling Gun looks rather odd on paper, at least to me. I like the option between Frag and Concussion grenades, but I don't like the way the two powers currently are. Frag being solely a DoT and Snare and Concussion replacing the old Frag.

I know Flamethrower is not supposed to be considered, but it really seems like it should. Which is why I want to hold off on Soldier AT and Munitions changes going live until it's ready.

When changes and updates are made, this would be my suggestion.

The Soldier
New power path:

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Shotgun Blast
8 Targeting Computer
11 Frag Grenade or Incendiary Grenade
14 Concentration
17 Concussion Grenade or Smoke Grenade
21 Assault Rifle
25 Killer Instinct
30 Lock N Load or Retaliation
35 Flamethrower or Gattling Gun
40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket

I do not think the changes to the Munitions powers and Soldier AT are at all ready.

sterga · February 2017

When the game first came out, when it was still sub only with no ATs, people actually wanted classes to use. And the devs caved. So, yes, not allowing ATs to LTS, even if they are inferior, would cause complaints.

"Gatling gun will usually be redundant with SMG."

SMG is better for AoE. Gat Gun is better for single target. Not redundant choices. The AoE tag is more for tree synergies than for what a power is best at.

1 Steady shot
1 Submachinegun Burst
6 Rifle Butt or Holdout Shot
A choice between the only healing ability for the Soldier and a power that can't heal. Looks like a non-choice or a choice to screw over new players.

8 Targeting Computer
11 Frag Grenade or Smoke Grenade.
14 Concentration
Stuff like this and KI being at 25 is what makes ATs blow to level due to energy issues.

ordinaryplayer · February 2017

> @kaizerin said:
>
> The Unleashed
> New power path:
> * 1 Rain of Steel
> * 2 Blade Tempest
> * 6 Form of the Tempest
> * 8 Unstoppable
> * 11 Force Snap or Strike Down
> * 14 Force Eruption or Eye of the Storm
> * 17 Bountiful Chi Resurgence or Mind Wipe
> * 21 Dragon's Wrath
> * 25 Force Shield
> * 30 Relentless
> * 35 Intensity or Field Surge
> * 40 Containment Field or Force Geyser

Since no one has pointed it out, *14* levels until the second power. That will be some poor boring game play. L6 Storm Harvest may be a throw away power once you get Eye of Storm and DW at end game, but you need to get there. It is nice to get the 'good' powers earlier though

With L6 power is removed for is Relentless EU .. I can see this as dual blade does have some energy issue, this is early on (old dex re scaling didn't help either to make form proc) so EU is misplaced anyways. Also rush buff makes for different game play then everyone having EU.

1 Rain
2 Blade Tempest
6 Storm Harvest
8 - 11 - 14 Form - Unstop - Lunge, in some logical order
17 - 21 - 25 Chi - Eye - Dragon, in some order
30 Shield, hopefully not too late
35 AO-AD
40 Ultimate

ordinaryplayer · February 2017

> @kaizerin said:
> Please use this thread to discuss changes made to archetypes for this PTS update.

> The Soldier
> New power path:
> * 1 Steady shot
> * 1 Submachinegun Burst
> * 6 Shotgun Blast
> * 8 Targeting Computer
> * 11 Frag Grenade or Concussion Grenade
> * 14 Concentration
> * 17 Retaliation
> * 21 Assault Rifle
> * 25 Killer Instinct
> * 30 Lock N Load
> * 35 Smoke Grenade or Gattling Gun
> * 40 Sniper Rifle or Rocket

As nearly everyone said shotgun, and grenades are a problem. Both essentially utility powers. and checking the current build .. yes .. replace each other. Generally supporting the status quo with my build, and No love for grenades currently

1 Steady
2 Machine Gun
6 - A usefull power - Healing? Armor Piercing ? .
8 Computer
11 Grenades (Knock or Threat wipe) or Shotgun (Rifle here how low can we go?)
14 Con
17 Retribution (Can the rifle move down here?)
21 Rifle (And the block here)
25 Killer
30 GG ? Rocket
35 AO-AD
40 Sniper ? Rocket

Honestly current build is sweet, and fits with the maintain heavy play stile and specializations of soldier. Need to log in to see where that T3 rifle can legitimately go as per notes. Need to get it low as same as 2=blade should have a few powers to play with as fast as possible. See: Nearly every MMO/RPG game powers fast, upgrades later

kaiserin · February 2017

Something to keep in mind when making archetype suggestions: Archetypes cannot break power tier requirements.

vonqball · February 2017

Storm's Harvest just doesn't add much to the Unleashed's kit. ATs don't really get enough powers to have highly situational or dead powers.

I could see switching the Strike Down/Force Snap option with FotT for a bit more variety early... but those levels go by very quickly anyway, so I can't see this being a huge concern.

zamuelpwe · February 2017

vonqball said:
Storm's Harvest just doesn't add much to the Unleashed's kit.

Interesting perspective. While it probably can be dropped, on Live I full charge it for the Disorient. The survival benefit quietly builds up, especially with all the other stuff in an Unleashed build.

vonqball · February 2017

@zamuelpwe

Yeah, but that seems like more of a Tank thing to do, and nothing else in your kit has synergy with disorient. I sometimes use it on live, but I would much rather have a gap-closer. I just feel like a dps should focus on dps-ing, not full-charging low damage debuffs.

zamuelpwe · February 2017

vonqball said:
@zamuelpwe

Yeah, but that seems like more of a Tank thing to do, and nothing else in your kit has synergy with disorient. I sometimes use it on live, but I would much rather have a gap-closer. I just feel like a dps should focus on dps-ing, not full-charging low damage debuffs.

Well, you get a couple of different defense and shield buffs, plus a heal so it helps with survival, something some DPS characters struggle with. The lunge is paired up with the knockto so it's not actually competing with Storm's Harvest. That said, most people would likely prefer an EU and I'm not directly complaining about the Unleashed changes, just noting playstyle differences.

ordinaryplayer · February 2017

> @vonqball said:
> Storm's Harvest just doesn't add much to the Unleashed's kit. ATs don't really get enough powers to have highly situational or dead powers.
>
> I could see switching the Strike Down/Force Snap option with FotT for a bit more variety early... but those levels go by very quickly anyway, so I can't see this being a huge concern.

Yep, partly agree. Throw away powers suck. But playing something like glacier (11 levels of ice blast, 30 levels of snow storm) is not a great experience. Using force snap could be good, always considered lunge as a situational-utility power myself. (Are we just tossing different power out as dead?).

Checking my notes I've got Keven Poe at level 8, and High Pan at Level 14 (Quest level). There's also a smaller mini boss before Poe. It's really nice to have an few powers, and passive (always put a speck point here just for them personally) here. I'll take a a heavy strike vs lunge for Poe, and Pan's right on the edge (will I be level 13 or 15?).

The key is to make the throw away powers useful, here as mentioned that power has a debuff to lower damage to you. Plus (hopefully some time ) improving spec trees making "+x% damage on debuff" make it worth not just spamming 1 attack at end game. This seems to be the plan with healing-piercing being put on low tier powers.

It's not like you are going to get the perfect setup with multiple AO/AD and a heals as an AT. Quick Math: 11 powers - 1 form - 1 heal - 1 AO - 1 Passive - 1 EU = 6 powers left. Now 1 AP, 1 good aoe, 1 good single target. Still got 3 to play with for utility lunges, debuffs, and a throw away situational and fun stuff.

markhawkman · February 2017

vonqball said:
^I don't think that type of setup is very attractive to new players.

So? "Most attractive to new players" is a scenario where everything in the game is free. Which gives players little if any incentive to spend money on the game.

Monetization is life, without it there is no game.

@reaperwithnoname#5949 : isn't it also hypocritical to try to say everything must be all or nothing all the time? I can choose to agree or disagree with dev decisions individually. So yes, dev intent does matter, because dev intent is what defines whether something is a bug. Also Kais is in the process of rebalancing ATs, leaving old bugs in place while doing so is just not a good idea.

dpglerch · February 2017

When I originally built Santa Claus (Glacier Archtype), he wasn't built to take advantage of any exploit. I built Santa because of me getting the sleigh and it was winter. Other reasons for the build was for the challenge (using an Archetype) and to see if I could make a tank that was capable of keeping up with freeform. A lot of the gripe back then was that Archtypes couldn't keep up with freeforms.

I just wish they would find a setting for the powers and leave it, every time they change something it ends up costing me money to get the characters back to where I like them. I know when they change a powers abilities they give ONE free respect, but it usually takes me about 2or 3 respecs to works out the bugs with the build.

Archetype Changes Discussion Thread

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