FC.31.20160729.8 - Enemy Group Adjustments Feedback

kaiserin · August 2016

Please post feedback on the adjustments to enemy groups.

Please format any bugs you find in the following format:
Bug
Where it happens
What happens

Please format any suggestions you have in the following format:
Suggestion
Your suggestion

Please stay on topic in this PTS thread. We use bug reports from this thread to decide whether a PTS build is ready to go live, and so we need to make sure we're seeing everything in it. Please do discuss the changes, but if you find yourself writing about something that isn't specific to what's on PTS, then that should probably go here: http://forum.arcgames.com/championsonline/categories/gameplay-bugs1.
Posts that do not specifically pertain to the current PTS patch will be removed.

theravenforce · August 2016

I don't really have anything negative to say about the adjustment (yet) because from what I've seen they just make these groups of enemies good for teaming up or make players think about who to target (like you do with VIPER Brick Busters).

So for now, these have mostly been quite positive (IMO) changes, however I've only run through all the dailies with one low HP character and a DPS team mate (very helpful to have someone else).

pantagruel01 · August 2016

I was unable to see the tells on the elder worm heals, which meant beating the groups was just about grinding through.

pantagruel01 · August 2016

spinnytop · August 2016

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.

roughbearmattach · August 2016

spinnytop said:

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.

I heartily disagree. It is great that content like this allows stealth to work; most high-level content simply makes stealth useless. The mission is to get stuff, not defeat stuff, so not having to fight should be immaterial. There are already missions in the new zone that are "Defeat X number of mob Y".

I really love the new mob groups, especially when they use passives with auras, buffs, and heals. Take these ideas and bring them back into the rest of the game.

theravenforce · August 2016

spinnytop said:

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.

I have to disagree because this is basically punishing someone for using specific in game mechanics (we dont need more disadvantaged groups).

Just like everyone else they are engaging and making use of the content. How they accomplish it should not bother you unless it is game breaking, which in this instance it isnt.

Like rough already stated you are very much punished in higher level content for trying to use stealth, and since its a major selling point for Night Warrior...it doesnt need LESS content to work in.

Interacting with content still has the same penalties, and stealth users still need to kill enemies so one way or another they will be facing content, so it is fine for them to do so in their own way.

This is coming from someone who does not have any stealth characters on her roster, nerfing other peoples legitimate fun is never a good thing, especially when there is no real reason to do so.

theravenforce · August 2016

I don't really know where what I'm about to suggest should go, so if it is in the wrong place, I apologise BUT:

Suggestion: Allow Emily Lovett's top to drop from Trey King Flayers in that zone. (Or be included with the Emily Lovett Permanent Device)

IDC if no NPC in that zone wears the costume piece or not, it NEEDS to be player accessible!! (ideally it should come with the Emily Lovett Permanent Sidekick device and should back reward players who purchased it

)

I know that it will need to be modelled and adjusted for players and there should be a male variant as well but still...Pweeeeeeese!

spinnytop · August 2016

theravenforce said:
I have to disagree because this is basically punishing someone for using specific in game mechanics (we dont need more disadvantaged groups).

How would they be punished? By having to fight mobs like everyone else? How would someone using stealth be disadvantaged? By having to fight mobs like everyone else? The only one disadvantaged is everyone who doesn't have stealth.

roughbearmattach said:
I heartily disagree. It is great that content like this allows stealth to work; most high-level content simply makes stealth useless. The mission is to get stuff, not defeat stuff, so not having to fight should be immaterial. There are already missions in the new zone that are "Defeat X number of mob Y".

Night Warrior already has so much going for it, "able to skip combat on missions" isn't yet another perk it needs.

spinnytop · August 2016

I'll go ahead and throw this feedback here since it's also valid for this thread:

Suggestion: Buff the destroyer bot/shark mobs in the northern area to match the other two groups of mobs. Where as the first two groups I had to approach strategically, the northern groups I just ran in and AOE'd them down like scrubs with no thought, and no consequence.

Since I managed to solo all three areas on a variety of characters ( hybrid, ranged dps glass cannon, tuff melee dps ), and the missions are intended for 2 or more players, that means the worms and horrors don't really need to be tuned down ( and if they do, not by much ). It's fine if only strongly built or highly skilled characters can solo these missions - if you tune them down too much the zone loses something quite special.

KEEP IN MIND: Once this goes live, soloing is very unlikely - the areas where these mobs are is pretty limited and you're likely to end up with a lot of coincidental support from other players.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

1. The mob changes are nice. I didn't notice any bugs or problems.
2. These changes seem to only affect the Q warzone & N invasion mobs. Is this intended?
3. I strongly disagree with spinnytops statements about stealth.

Suggestion:
Make these changes global across the game from open-world mobs to instance/adventurepack/lairs. I have been advocating for these kinds of changes for a long time, and this is extremely encouraging.

1. The game needs mobs like this for CC and stealth to feel useful.
2. Doing so would help make the learning curve from regular leveling CO to cosmic end-game CO less steep.
3. Its fun.

deadman20 · August 2016

Honestly, I think there should be a patrolling enemy type for each faction similar to the Security Drones in Project Awakening that will spot you through stealth. It's something that Stealth users should play around, rather than having enemy groups which ignore Stealth's effects outright or, as in its current state, are unable to do anything about a Stealth user. So, here are some ideas for these new Patrolling enemies.

Elderworms:
Oracle - The most aggressive on this list, a Villain Class. Uses Aura of Arcane Clarity, which provides Perception Stealth Sight to itself and its allies it passes by. Instead of calling its allies, will summon Mind Worms and use other Telepathy abilities. Comes with a small contingent of Henchman Ranked allies.

Horrors:
Qliphothic Wisp - A Henchman Class, periodically pulses with dark energies that instill fear unto its enemies, placing them in a paralytic fear and causing them to take a small bit of a Paranormal Damage Type over time. Heroes caught by this dark grasp will also attract nearby enemies. The wisp will act as a seeking projectile when on the attack, expiring and exploding chaotically against its enemy, knocking them away.

Destroids and Karkaradons:
Security Drone - A Henchman Class, when a Hero is nearby, this drone will call a group of its nearby allies of which are not protecting an objective (Portals, Consoles, and the like). When noticing a Hero, it will attempt to use Energy Wave with Reverse Polarity to pull them out of stealth and into the group they have called to their side.

soulforger · August 2016

deadman20 said:
Honestly, I think there should be a patrolling enemy type for each faction similar to the Security Drones in Project Awakening that will spot you through stealth. It's something that Stealth users should play around, rather than having enemy groups which ignore Stealth's effects outright or, as in its current state, are unable to do anything about a Stealth user. So, here are some ideas for these new Patrolling enemies.

Elderworms:

Oracle - The most aggressive on this list, a Villain Class. Uses Aura of Arcane Clarity, which provides Perception Stealth Sight to itself and its allies it passes by. Instead of calling its allies, will summon Mind Worms and use other Telepathy abilities. Comes with a small contingent of Henchman Ranked allies.

Horrors:

Qliphothic Wisp - A Henchman Class, periodically pulses with dark energies that instill fear unto its enemies, placing them in a paralytic fear and causing them to take a small bit of a Paranormal Damage Type over time. Heroes caught by this dark grasp will also attract nearby enemies. The wisp will act as a seeking projectile when on the attack, expiring and exploding chaotically against its enemy, knocking them away.

Destroids and Karkaradons:

Security Drone - A Henchman Class, when a Hero is nearby, this drone will call a group of its nearby allies of which are not protecting an objective (Portals, Consoles, and the like). When noticing a Hero, it will attempt to use Energy Wave with Reverse Polarity to pull them out of stealth and into the group they have called to their side.

I like this idea, its a good compremise (however you spell it) from just giving everything stealth sight. This would require the player to be more alert than necessary.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

@deadman20 I like this.

pantagruel01 · August 2016

spinnytop wrote: »

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.

You don't actually need stealth to do that. A lot of treasures are far enough away from mob groups that you can just move up to them.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

Bug
Where: it happens Elderworm Domain
What happens: Some Substantiators don't use AORP

1.dark deciples should have AORP or some kind of buff too. Really, all Master Villains should have a little something extra.
2. I agree that the destroids and shark ppl need a buff and feel out of place this includes the portal engineers.

aesica · August 2016

sigmaseven0 said:

2. I agree that the destroids and shark ppl need a buff and feel out of place this includes the portal engineers.

According to the patch notes in the now-closed thread, those two groups are still being worked on.

notyuu · August 2016

how much presence do the mobs with the auras have?
AoED is making things like this happen with every hit.

that's in westside I might add... so GG, you just scared off every new player in a 10,000 mile radius.

kyastral · August 2016

spinnytop said:

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.

I agree. Stealth sight would hinder anyone from trying to collect the mission objectives without doing any of the work. Collecting the books is another example of how stealth works too well to avoid mobs, especially the add-ons. And since that mission has a smaller amount of books available to collect, a stealth build would have the advantage over any other. And we know what happens to builds/powers that become too popular, dont we?

kyastral · August 2016

theravenforce said:

spinnytop said:

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.
I have to disagree because this is basically punishing someone for using specific in game mechanics (we dont need more disadvantaged groups).

Just like everyone else they are engaging and making use of the content. How they accomplish it should not bother you unless it is game breaking, which in this instance it isnt.

Like rough already stated you are very much punished in higher level content for trying to use stealth, and since its a major selling point for Night Warrior...it doesnt need LESS content to work in.

Interacting with content still has the same penalties, and stealth users still need to kill enemies so one way or another they will be facing content, so it is fine for them to do so in their own way.

This is coming from someone who does not have any stealth characters on her roster, nerfing other peoples legitimate fun is never a good thing, especially when there is no real reason to do so.

Hmm.. I disagree. From my experience, when it comes to high/end level content, not every power/build will work or will be useful. The Cosmic Monsters are a great example of this. Players are supposed to improvise to see what will work, not fall back on what is familiar or easy. High/end content is supposed to be a challenge, not a walkthrough. In my opinion, stealth can be used in high level content (threat wipe, for example); it should not be used as an easy advantage to get through content, no matter how difficult the content is.

magpieuk2014 · August 2016

it should not be used as an easy advantage to get through content, no matter how difficult the content is

Build the content better, anticipating the use of common powers, and change the power so that maintaining stealth indefinitely is more difficult than it might have been.

spinnytop · August 2016

magpieuk2014 said:
it should not be used as an easy advantage to get through content, no matter how difficult the content is

Build the content better, anticipating the use of common powers, and change the power so that maintaining stealth indefinitely is more difficult than it might have been.

Yes, build the content better by giving mobs stealth sight. Glad we agree. Deadman has some interesting ideas as well, however I worry that in trying to make the content only less likely to be breezed through by stealthers, his ideas would make it significantly more difficult for everyone else.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

Stealth doesn't work in in elite instances, alerts, rampages, lairs, many pvp situations, ect. Much like CC, it only works when you don't need it.
The ham fisted suggestion of just slapping stealth sight on every thing is unacceptable and vastly underestimates the consequence of once again alienating a valid play style that is prominent in the MMO world. deadman20s initial suggestion is just that an initial suggestion that has yet to be put into practice. If it proves to be overpowered then it can be tuned like every thing else. That's what PTS is for.

It would probably be possible to use strong AOE CC to hold a spawn to interact with a mission objective as well. Should we make the mobs hold immune as well? Super Tanks can stroll through the Q warzone without threat of death *shrug*. Heroes who specialize in something should have a moment when they are more effective. That's the whole point.
If you specialize in stealth or CC you have already made deep sacrifices. How much is enough?

Having multiple ways to play the game and complete an objective makes rolling alts worth while and allows people with different preferred game play styles to express them self.

The current changes to mobs make CC and stealth more viable thereby adding much needed depth to a game that has for years been a zerg fest. Lets be smart and address problem with subtlety so that we actually find solutions/balance instead of creating even more problems.

darqaura2 · August 2016

The current changes to mobs make CC and stealth more viable thereby adding much needed depth to a game that has for years been a zerg fest. Lets be smart and address problem with subtlety so that we actually find solutions/balance instead of creating even more problems.

Completely agree. Let's stop doing the lazy fixes in Champions Online. This dev team is better than that.

aesica · August 2016

spinnytop said:
Yes, build the content better by giving mobs stealth sight. Glad we agree. Deadman has some interesting ideas as well, however I worry that in trying to make the content only less likely to be breezed through by stealthers, his ideas would make it significantly more difficult for everyone else.

By all means, discourage people from being clever with how they use their powers.

What about tanks, who can just waddle into packs and clear them out without any danger of dying? Should we add a bunch of resistance-penetrating attacks so they also can't trivialize the content as well?

phasestar · August 2016

I completely agree that stealth should be more of a part of the game, not less - perhaps just the most elite mobs should have some stealth sight but not the rest? The first stealth-based character I created, I was quite bummed that I had to change my entire playstyle in Alerts as my main abilities were much less useful due to the mobs always spotting me.

spinnytop · August 2016

Comparing the ability to completely ignore mobs with actively using your powers to combat them is really just making my point stronger.

theravenforce · August 2016

kyastral said:

Hmm.. I disagree. From my experience, when it comes to high/end level content, not every power/build will work or will be useful. The Cosmic Monsters are a great example of this. Players are supposed to improvise to see what will work, not fall back on what is familiar or easy. High/end content is supposed to be a challenge, not a walkthrough. In my opinion, stealth can be used in high level content (threat wipe, for example); it should not be used as an easy advantage to get through content, no matter how difficult the content is.

With the system that we have in place, content should try as hard as it can to accommodate multiple play styles.

When it comes to high level content, let's take a quick look at what actively works against the main target (the actual boss not side objectives):

* Damage <-- A given really, you can't defeat main targets by hugging them or throwing fish.
* Healing/Shielding <-- Another given, you cannot expect to survive high end content without some form of healing, because you are actually damaged pretty often.
* Tanking <-- A great mechanic that when used in combination with the right support and right player skill can be very effective at taking the heat off other players.

Since stealth does not work (non threat wipe, the reason why threat wipes work is because invariably they remove threat and remove you from view, not simply because they put you in stealth) in higher level instances, it would not be familiar to see Stealth having a place in higher level content, if anything it would be unique.

Mobs currently have multiple ways to keep a character out of stealth once they have attacked. Most of the mobs have some form of DoT which as we all know keeps stealth from applying.

Are you of the opinion that if they allowed mobs to remain as they are (i.e. no stealth sight), everyone and their mother will automatically retcon into Night Warrior/Stealth builds and run through the new content...to collect a few objectives?

There is a bit of fun in sneaking up to mobs and laying down traps, in fact some set ups rely on it. Mobs having stealth sight may mean that they can see through teleport, a tactic which can be used to escape an untimely death or just to move from place to place.

If any of the mobs need stealth sight in that zone...it is the bosses, not the basic mobs. Nightmare Demolishers and High Annelids should probably have stealth sight too but that's about it.

Getting upset and wanting to control how others play rarely, if ever, makes content attractive. At the end of the day, most of the missions actually require you to engage and actually attack enemies, which is not very easy to do from stealth unless you completely abandon your build and make something specifically designed for that purpose, which would be very very very far to go just to avoid fighting a few mobs.

I mean, I get that this is end game content, but does that mean only builds which look like X or use Y should be viable? I don't think so.

I would agree if stealth worked so that interacting with things did not remove you from stealth or taking DoT or even accidental damage didn't remove stealth...but it does.

Perhaps this would be an idea instead, since the main 'salt' or reason for wanting stealth sight on mobs is because of collecting materials related to a mission:

Collection missions also have an objective which requires you to take out mobs which surround an objective. That way you can be sure that even stealth users are having to fight content just like everyone else.

To me that's a bit better than just simply saying "No, you can't make use of your passive's main function because I want you to fight stuff like I do."

For the record, I don't actually use any stealth based characters on my roster (I used to but not any more).

--

However, the result of this discussion so far, will be quite telling. I suspect mobs will gain stealth sight anyway "because lol

"

It is interesting to note that none of the (basic) mobs (near as I can tell) have anti-tank mechanics which would disadvantage someone who has specialized in playing as a tank.

Because it would be silly to disadvantage someone for specializing. Right?

pantagruel01 · August 2016

You know, the entire debate about stealth is missing the point: stealth sight is irrelevant to the problem. The reason you can ninja the treasures isn't because of stealth (interact ends sneak, and alternatives that don't are quite limited), it's because they're located outside of aggro radius of mobs and therefore it doesn't require stealth, you can just move up and grab it.

williamkony · August 2016

deadman20 said:
Honestly, I think there should be a patrolling enemy type for each faction similar to the Security Drones in Project Awakening that will spot you through stealth. It's something that Stealth users should play around, rather than having enemy groups which ignore Stealth's effects outright or, as in its current state, are unable to do anything about a Stealth user. So, here are some ideas for these new Patrolling enemies.

Elderworms:

Oracle - The most aggressive on this list, a Villain Class. Uses Aura of Arcane Clarity, which provides Perception Stealth Sight to itself and its allies it passes by. Instead of calling its allies, will summon Mind Worms and use other Telepathy abilities. Comes with a small contingent of Henchman Ranked allies.

Horrors:

Qliphothic Wisp - A Henchman Class, periodically pulses with dark energies that instill fear unto its enemies, placing them in a paralytic fear and causing them to take a small bit of a Paranormal Damage Type over time. Heroes caught by this dark grasp will also attract nearby enemies. The wisp will act as a seeking projectile when on the attack, expiring and exploding chaotically against its enemy, knocking them away.

Destroids and Karkaradons:

Security Drone - A Henchman Class, when a Hero is nearby, this drone will call a group of its nearby allies of which are not protecting an objective (Portals, Consoles, and the like). When noticing a Hero, it will attempt to use Energy Wave with Reverse Polarity to pull them out of stealth and into the group they have called to their side.

As a Night Warrior main, I greatly approve of this. X) It seems like an awesome way to throw a wrench into stealthing through everything without being the frustrating, boring, unfair approach of just making everything Tough-level.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

@theravenforce and @pantagruel01 Good points. Tweaking mission design is another good way to address this challenge.
There are many ways to skin this cat without killing it.

crypticbuxom · August 2016

Stealth is completely fine as is since you have to unstealth to interact with Tomes in which the mobs will almost stop you every time from gathering Lore and moving on.

riverocean · August 2016

The stealth debate is resolved by a very simple solution IMHO.

Stealth is already negated when a player interacts with objects. So just place a high-level mob as a guardian for each object. That way the stealthy player can still sneak past some mobs, but will have to defeat the mob guarding the object. Plus it provides an oppourtunity for Night Warriors to actually use their shadow strike power.

In other words a stealthy player would have to:
- Sneak up on book.
- Take out the guardians.
- Retrieve the book.

This way you don't alienate soloers and those who like playing assassins/thief's. Let's make suggestions that widen the playstyle options, not limit them.

UPDATE: I built a Night Warrior based toon to test stealth. The issue with stealth seems minor at best. Most of the Lore Books are well guarded. This means there are mobs close enough to the object, who will aggro as soon as the object is clicked. Remember, interacting with objects drops stealth.

I found three lore books that were not well guarded. One at the top of the temple & a couple at the Temple's base. Those books need guardians placed closer to them. But in general it was far from easy to stealth click these. There is still a great deal of risk involved. Even with stealth and a threat wipe. Players cannot re-stealth while under a dot. Infernal mobs are loaded with DOT's - which means re-stealthing if caught is nearly impossible.

spinnytop · August 2016

crypticbuxom said:
Stealth is completely fine as is since you have to unstealth to interact with Tomes in which the mobs will almost stop you every time from gathering Lore and moving on.

Not true. You can waltz up to the interactable item, start interacting with it, and by the time the mobs aggro to you you already have the item and can just run off. I watched someone do it quite handily.

Words of wisdom: If you make one single way that content can easily be solo'd, while with all other methods it must either be done in a group or is hard to solo, then you are influencing people into using that one method. This is how you soft kill choice.

williamkony · August 2016

spinnytop said:

crypticbuxom said:
Stealth is completely fine as is since you have to unstealth to interact with Tomes in which the mobs will almost stop you every time from gathering Lore and moving on.
Not true. You can waltz up to the interactable item, start interacting with it, and by the time the mobs aggro to you you already have the item and can just run off. I watched someone do it quite handily.

Words of wisdom: If you make one single way that content can easily be solo'd, while with all other methods it must either be done in a group or is hard to solo, then you are influencing people into using that one method. This is how you soft kill choice.

And your approach hard kills it. Simple mob positioning, or Deadman20's fantastic approach, would be far superior to just flat out saying "**** you, stealth users".

pantagruel01 · August 2016

spinnytop wrote: »

Not true. You can waltz up to the interactable item, start interacting with it, and by the time the mobs aggro to you you already have the item and can just run off.

Depends on the interaction speed and the mob distance. The time required to interact with the object could easily be bumped up.

aesica · August 2016

riverocean said:
UPDATE: I built a Night Warrior based toon to test stealth. The issue with stealth seems minor at best. Most of the Lore Books are well guarded. This means there are mobs close enough to the object, who will aggro as soon as the object is clicked. Remember, interacting with objects drops stealth.

I found three lore books that were not well guarded. One at the top of the temple & a couple at the Temple's base. Those books need guardians placed closer to them. But in general it was far from easy to stealth click these. There is still a great deal of risk involved. Even with stealth and a threat wipe. Players cannot re-stealth while under a dot. Infernal mobs are loaded with DOT's - which means re-stealthing if caught is nearly impossible.

Having done some of my own testing, you're dead on about object placement in relation to nearby enemy pack placement. I was able to bypass the fighting and use some objectives (likely the ones you mentioned) by merely flying or teleporting in--an issue that no amount of stealthsight would be able to fix.

riverocean · August 2016

It sounds like a teleport user in your scenario (I didn't use teleport) Spinny. Fast teleporters would still be able to pull that trick off without stealth.

I like the suggestion of adjusting interact times. That plus ensuring all the lore books have mobs placed closer to them should fix the issue. This would work even in those cases where someone was teleporting.

So my suggestion which I think is fair:

- Slow down the interact times on the Lore Books.
- Ensure all mobs are close to the Lore Books.

Stealth users can still be stealthy without having an unfair advantage. Plus they finally get a nice end game use for Shadow Strike. Everybody's happy.

phasestar · August 2016

I have no issue with losing stealth while interacting with an object. I really dislike the idea of giving all mobs in any mission the ability to ignore stealth - it makes it meaningless as a playstyle. I don't want to be able to complete missions without a challenge when using my stealth character, I just want to feel that he can solve them in a different way.

Unknown · August 2016

This content has been removed.

spinnytop · August 2016

pantagruel01 said:

Depends on the interaction speed and the mob distance. The time required to interact with the object could easily be bumped up.

That's another way to approach it.

gradii said:
Choice of playstyle is becoming a forgotten term in this game.

"ignoring content" is not a playstyle.

williamkony said:
And your approach hard kills it. Simple mob positioning, or Deadman20's fantastic approach, would be far superior to just flat out saying "**** you, stealth users".

Night Warrior characters are going to be hugely useful in this content. In fact moreso if they're not trying to completely avoid combat - whoever you're teamed up with will benefit hugely from your ability to assassinate the most problematic mobs.

Teleport's usefulness should be obvious here.

phasestar said:
I have no issue with losing stealth while interacting with an object. I really dislike the idea of giving all mobs in any mission the ability to ignore stealth - it makes it meaningless as a playstyle. I don't want to be able to complete missions without a challenge when using my stealth character, I just want to feel that he can solve them in a different way.

If you play it right you're going to feel like a god in this content as a stealth character.

darqaura2 · August 2016

spinnytop said:

pantagruel01 said:

Depends on the interaction speed and the mob distance. The time required to interact with the object could easily be bumped up.
That's another way to approach it.
gradii said:
Choice of playstyle is becoming a forgotten term in this game.
"ignoring content" is not a playstyle.
williamkony said:
And your approach hard kills it. Simple mob positioning, or Deadman20's fantastic approach, would be far superior to just flat out saying "**** you, stealth users".
Night Warrior characters are going to be hugely useful in this content. In fact moreso if they're not trying to completely avoid combat - whoever you're teamed up with will benefit hugely from your ability to assassinate the most problematic mobs.

Teleport's usefulness should be obvious here.
phasestar said:
I have no issue with losing stealth while interacting with an object. I really dislike the idea of giving all mobs in any mission the ability to ignore stealth - it makes it meaningless as a playstyle. I don't want to be able to complete missions without a challenge when using my stealth character, I just want to feel that he can solve them in a different way.

If you play it right you're going to feel like a god in this content as a stealth character.

mehhhhh, doesn't concern me. I don't see a large influx of players suddenly switching to Night Warrior based on the content. And if you team with someone who can play that style, or better yet grab the objectives while you beat the crap out of the rest of the mobs . . . I see nothing wrong with that.

chaelk · August 2016

spinnytop wrote: »

Suggestion: Give the mobs Stealth Sight. Someone with stealth can just walk right up to them. Very noticeable on the Worm Treasures mission where a stealther can actually collect all the items without having to fight anything.

I can tell you, that some of them already have it.

sterga · August 2016

spinnytop said:
"ignoring content" is not a playstyle.

So, if someone doesn't go in guns blazing to accomplish objectives, that person is ignoring content? Completing missions in an alternative fashion outside of "PEW PEW PEW! Corpse pile!" is still doing the content.

"And if you team with someone who can play that style, or better yet grab the objectives while you beat the crap out of the rest of the mobs . . [...]"

You don't need stealth for that. If one person attacks, the other person doesn't, Player Passive can just trundle over to grab objectives. The person not attack is clearly "ignoring content" and should be nerfed somehow.

pantagruel01 · August 2016

spinnytop said:
Night Warrior characters are going to be hugely useful in this content. In fact moreso if they're not trying to completely avoid combat - whoever you're teamed up with will benefit hugely from your ability to assassinate the most problematic mobs.

Pretty sure a heavy ranged alpha strike like force cascade, strafing run, or orbital cannon would be more useful, and that doesn't take stealth at all.

aesica · August 2016

spinnytop said:
Night Warrior characters are going to be hugely useful in this content. In fact moreso if they're not trying to completely avoid combat - whoever you're teamed up with will benefit hugely from your ability to assassinate the most problematic mobs.

Stop, please. You're massively overstating the value of stealth in terms of this content, and I'm really not sure why. Also notice that literally everyone is disagreeing with you here, which means you should probably just give it up. Either I sneak in and assassinate one mob with my HUGELY USEFUL STEALTH ABILITIES or I just...kinda swoop in and aoestorm everything down. Either way, trash dies, books get interacted with.

As you know by now, I'm not an endgame player. My "best" character is outfitted in lousy Heroics (acquired before the price hike), the Onslaught gloves, and 2 other random forgettable purples. Still, I can handle this stuff on my own without thinking "oh god if ONLY I COULD STEALTH!" In fact, I don't for a second get the feeling that I need to trade in my Invulnerability for Night Warrior to do this stuff, because I'd rather just bull my way in and lay waste to everything. That's my playstyle, but it's not everyone's.

Stop exaggerating the effectiveness of stealth in this scenario. It's currently a legit power that is just fine as is.

spinnytop said:
If you play it right you're going to feel like a god in this content as a stealth character.

Not if everything has stealth sight. You'll be going in for the assassination and....AWW! Too bad, they saw you and you went splat. T__T

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

I just want to say that I play NW and enjoy stealth games in general. We don't want to bypass content, we want the flavor of challenge that comes with stealth game play.
This is why Deadmans idea is the most appealing to me.
Even if deadmans ideas cant be implimented,anything is better than reducing stealth from a play style to a buff to facilitate Shadow Strike damage.

There is a moment in Wildstar where a powerful giant robot must be defeated. I was able to not fight that robot by finding the security codes for the robot and hacking him form long range while in stealth without engaging in combat. I didn't "cheat" i just completed the quest in a different and satisfying way. That may be sophisticated for CO, but Its one of many examples from the MMO world when devs approach game design with the assumption that some players will be using stealth.

spinnytop · August 2016

darqaura2 said:

mehhhhh, doesn't concern me. I don't see a large influx of players suddenly switching to Night Warrior based on the content. And if you team with someone who can play that style, or better yet grab the objectives while you beat the crap out of the rest of the mobs . . . I see nothing wrong with that.

When I played the mission teamed up most quest objectives were not shared when one person grabbed them, I had to grab them myself even after a teammate did. So, your friend not helping while you fight isn't going to be so great for you.

sterga said:
So, if someone doesn't go in guns blazing to accomplish objectives, that person is ignoring content?

If you go in guns blazing you're probably gonna die. I'm sure some people's playstyle is "charge in face first and spam aoe without thought", and they'll have to adjust too.

pantagruel01 said:

Pretty sure a heavy ranged alpha strike like force cascade, strafing run, or orbital cannon would be more useful, and that doesn't take stealth at all.

Those will also be useful, yes. What's your point?

aesica said:
Also notice that literally everyone is disagreeing with you here, which means you should probably just give it up.

I don't change my opinion based on what the majority of people who happen to be posting are saying. Neither did you in that thread where quite a few people told you to stop bringing your alt account into alerts with you.

aesica said:
Not if everything has stealth sight. You'll be going in for the assassination and....AWW! Too bad, they saw you and you went splat. T__T

Sure, if you're dumb about it like you suggest, it'll go poorly. Or you can be smart about it. Up to you really.

pantagruel01 · August 2016

spinnytop said:

Those will also be useful, yes. What's your point?

That there's no really good reason to block stealthy assassination if you don't block all the other ways you can oneshot villains.

sterga · August 2016

Rhetorical question. Point miss. Good job.

sigmaseven0 · August 2016

Remember its the devs that must be convinced, not spinnytop.
There's no point in getting drawn into a circular argument here.

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