Devastator players: get yourself to the PTS forum

squirrelloid · March 2016

I'm apparently the only person who reads the PTS forum who actually plays a Devastator. (And yes, that includes the devs). We need more people advocating against destructive proposed changes that will make the AT nigh unplayable.

-Skewer energy cost up by 50%
-Eruption CD to 10s
-Devastator power progression reworked so old playstyles are non-functional while trying (poorly) to make you take clinging flames-related advantages.

Go say something now before this goes live.

rap9 · March 2016

I was thinking of making one a while back but yah this kinda-sorta freezes me, for now at least.

Hear of plenty people going full halt on builds, with the devs tinkering with everything so piecemeal. Ideally it would be in larger doses but that's likely impossible with the dev size. Still, constant micro-changes doesn't behoove me to invest time, effort, gear, G, etcetera, instead eliciting 'wait until the smoke settles'.

Hope it turns out for the better in the long term.

ramthananax · March 2016

The whole business of shoehorning Fire into Heavy Weapons has soured me on the whole thing. They're changing a lot of people's HW builds just to make a new AT work the way they want it to.

I've left feedback, but it's been my experience over the years that once something makes it onto the PTS, it's probably going to go live without any changes... no matter what the players say.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

ramthananax said:

I've left feedback, but it's been my experience over the years that once something makes it onto the PTS, it's probably going to go live without any changes... no matter what the players say.

In the most recent PTS builds, there are numerous examples of powers, costumes, and even missions that have changed because of player feedback. They really do listen.

But they don't take every suggestion. Yes, there is a specific move to make the HW set work with clinging flames. That is seems definite. Suggestions that they don't do that are not going to be used.

squirrelloid · March 2016

roughbearmattach said:

ramthananax said:

I've left feedback, but it's been my experience over the years that once something makes it onto the PTS, it's probably going to go live without any changes... no matter what the players say.
In the most recent PTS builds, there are numerous examples of powers, costumes, and even missions that have changed because of player feedback. They really do listen.

But they don't take every suggestion. Yes, there is a specific move to make the HW set work with clinging flames. That is seems definite. Suggestions that they don't do that are not going to be used.

Capable of working with and being forced to work with are two wholly different things.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

I do, however, completely support this post.
The more thoughtful contributors to PTS, the better.

nacito · March 2016

Even as FF I want my char to have some HW powers and not being useless! but since I cant check the pts besides the forums cant say much

squirrelloid · March 2016

naciiito said:
Even as FF I want my char to have some HW powers and not being useless! but since I cant check the pts besides the forums cant say much

Anything in particular you'd like tested?

I swear, most of the time i've spent on CO in the last week has either been on PTS or on live in the powerhouse testing stuff...

chaelk · March 2016

mine worked ok but I don't min/max mine

nacito · March 2016

squirrelloid said:

Anything in particular you'd like tested?

I swear, most of the time i've spent on CO in the last week has either been on PTS or on live in the powerhouse testing stuff...

hmmm, lets see, I saw somewhere that stacking enrage has become hard, and some troubles with CDs? also something about fire added to HW to more damage? (dont mind at all I could live with it, but hits thematic spots for various people)
beyond that, I just want to make the poor and forgotten Alfa the aggroing tank I want him to be, and that will be with a big freaking sword!

chaelk · March 2016

arc of ruin ,plus advs on Brimstone and eruption, give the flames

spinnytop · March 2016

After these changes hit live, I'm changing my Might character to a Heavy Weapons character because the new state of HW just looks so much more appealing.

naciiito said:

squirrelloid said:

Anything in particular you'd like tested?

I swear, most of the time i've spent on CO in the last week has either been on PTS or on live in the powerhouse testing stuff...

hmmm, lets see, I saw somewhere that stacking enrage has become hard, and some troubles with CDs? also something about fire added to HW to more damage? (dont mind at all I could live with it, but hits thematic spots for various people)
beyond that, I just want to make the poor and forgotten Alfa the aggroing tank I want him to be, and that will be with a big freaking sword!

- Stacking enrage has not become hard at all. The one exception can be Skewer, since it will not stack enrage by itself.
- Yes, a lot of HW attacks are now half fire, half crushing. No real big difference there since the set has always had a fiery flavor.
- You will now be generating even more aggro thanks to some dps buffs that HW has received. You might need to change your build slightly, or not at all - from what I've seen, it's likely to be not at all.

spinnytop · March 2016

ramthananax said:
The whole business of shoehorning Fire into Heavy Weapons has soured me on the whole thing. They're changing a lot of people's HW builds just to make a new AT work the way they want it to.

Actually, the AT was created after they conceived of the HW changes. That's how it works, not the other way around.

ramthananax said:

I've left feedback, but it's been my experience over the years that once something makes it onto the PTS, it's probably going to go live without any changes... no matter what the players say.

There have actually been several changes to HW powers since the changes first appeared on PTS - if you don't believe me, just read the PTS notes, you'll see the changes printed there in plain english, no need to listen to "what players say". Same with just about everything that comes on PTS... it gets tested, and changes are made. That's how it works and I've seen it first hand ( in fact, some of my own suggestions and feedback were directly implemented ).

nacito · March 2016

spinnytop said:

- Stacking enrage has not become hard at all. The one exception can be Skewer, since it will not stack enrage by itself.
- Yes, a lot of HW attacks are now half fire, half crushing. No real big difference there since the set has always had a fiery flavor.
- You will now be generating even more aggro thanks to some dps buffs that HW has received. You might need to change your build slightly, or not at all - from what I've seen, it's likely to be not at all.

so, better dps, better aggro, excited to get these chages! ^w^

pantagruel01 · March 2016

In general I suggest hitting PTS and actually testing the changes before hitting the PTS forums. You may like or dislike them (I have things I like and things I dislike), but in either case it's the difference between offering an informed and potentially useful opinion and a reflexive 'all change is bad' rant.

nacito · March 2016

pantagruel01 said:
In general I suggest hitting PTS and actually testing the changes before hitting the PTS forums. You may like or dislike them (I have things I like and things I dislike), but in either case it's the difference between offering an informed and potentially useful opinion and a reflexive 'all change is bad' rant.

If I had access to pts...

chuckwolf · March 2016

There is a problem with this request though, and that is the majority of players who play the Devestator AT are 1. Silvers who got it for free during the Giveaway a couple years ago or 2. Silver players who actually bought it with Zen.

which brings us to problem 3. Silver players aren't allowed on the PTS. something I don't understand why but still a fact.

neuraldamage · March 2016

spinnytop said:

- Yes, a lot of HW attacks are now half fire, half crushing. No real big difference there since the set has always had a fiery flavor.

Yeah that'll look awesome with that big HW hockey stick they handed out awhile back. Grab that with the hockey mask and... ok, I got nothing but a broken concept there.

spinnytop said:
That's how it works and I've seen it first hand ( in fact, some of my own suggestions and feedback were directly implemented ).

Ok now it's all starting to make sense.

Still feeling "confident"? LOL.

aiqa · March 2016

HW did get more synergy options with Clinging Flames, but apart from that it did get buffed too. The biggest dps loss when you don't use CF is with Annihilate and that is only 8%. The set as a whole is much better now, even if you want to completely ignore CF.

spinnytop · March 2016

neuraldamage said:

Still feeling "confident"? LOL.

Yes, why wouldn't I? Did you say something that would make me like the changes they've made less?

beezeeze · March 2016

neuraldamage said:

Yeah that'll look awesome with that big HW hockey stick they handed out awhile back. Grab that with the hockey mask and... ok, I got nothing but a broken concept there.

Look out, here comes the Goalie from Hell! The one who skates upon the lake of fire!

squirrelloid · March 2016

My problem with the fire into HW thing they're doing isn't that there's now fire damage. I actually have a toon idea who would love some of the HW attacks with an invisible weapon and fire theming. (And actually, it would prefer the ability to make them *all* fire damage, and not just half).

My problem is how hamfisted the changes are in an attempt to make HW players use not only fire damage, but obvious fire-themed advantages and abilities (like Clinging Flames). Between that and the tendency to make all resistance debuffs powerset specific, i'm starting to worry that the current dev team envisions there being only one right way to play each powerset, and they're going to try to 'balance' things around making you play that way.

spinnytop · March 2016

squirrelloid said:
My problem with the fire into HW thing they're doing isn't that there's now fire damage. I actually have a toon idea who would love some of the HW attacks with an invisible weapon and fire theming. (And actually, it would prefer the ability to make them *all* fire damage, and not just half).

My problem is how hamfisted the changes are in an attempt to make HW players use not only fire damage, but obvious fire-themed advantages and abilities (like Clinging Flames). Between that and the tendency to make all resistance debuffs powerset specific, i'm starting to worry that the current dev team envisions there being only one right way to play each powerset, and they're going to try to 'balance' things around making you play that way.

That's unlikely. What they're doing is trying to break up the current "right way" to play the game, which is wholesale frankenbuilding, often using the same few powers. Yes yes, you can choose to not do this, but that doesn't change what is objectively better. They're trying to change the current meta where you have a handful of powers that are best, and instead making it so that every framework has good stuff in it, but that you have to use a suite of abilities to get the best out of it. This will mean that there will be several best ways to build.

Far from forcing players to play a certain way, this will open up many more choices for players, all of which will be objectively good choices. There won't be anything forcing you to stay within a framework; how deeply you invest into a given framework's meta is up to you - the difference will be that you will actually be rewarded for doing so, which is different form now where the meta is to avoid building into a framework and instead just lightly dip into it for an attack or two since there's no benefit to going any further than that.

If you want, you will still be able to frankenbuild to your heart's content and there will still be rewards for doing so. However, investment into a framework will also be rewarded. Figuring out ways to invest into multiple frameworks in a way that works well will now be a process you might actually find yourself going through. Far from restricting the way players build, what they're doing is expanding the way players will be able to build and making it less of a process of simply deciding how far away from the good way to build you want to deviate.

PS - the phrase "ham-fisted" doesn't apply here. They're actually going through with a fine tooth comb and individually solving problems on the micro level. Ham-fisted applies to sweeping changes at the macro level.

Unknown · March 2016

This content has been removed.

squirrelloid · March 2016

spinnytop said:

That's unlikely. What they're doing is trying to break up the current "right way" to play the game, which is wholesale frankenbuilding, often using the same few powers. Yes yes, you can choose to not do this, but that doesn't change what is objectively better. They're trying to change the current meta where you have a handful of powers that are best, and instead making it so that every framework has good stuff in it, but that you have to use a suite of abilities to get the best out of it. This will mean that there will be several best ways to build.

Far from forcing players to play a certain way, this will open up many more choices for players, all of which will be objectively good choices.

You contradicted yourself there. That is forcing you to play a certain way, because its not some generalizable suite of abilities, it's a particular, framework-specific suite of abilities (which they are systematically making more framework-specific and more particular). So yeah, you can choose any framework, but there's only one right way to play that framework (or sub-framework/power) in the current development vision.

My problems with the heavy weapon / devastator tinkering are precisely on point here - Kaiserin doesn't see a problem with Devastator energy management because he assumes and requires that everyone use Clinging Flames with Thermal Reverberation to 'play HW correctly'. So those of us who don't want to use clinging flames simply aren't of consequence because our fun is badwrongfun. And those optional advantages which create clinging flames stacks in the first place aren't really optional - they're actually mandatory. That's forcing players to build a particular way in order to function to use that framework.

And that kind of design philosophy completely kills cross-framework characters, because it will become harder and harder to find non-utility powers which work together cross-framework as buffs/debuffs/power synergies get forced to become more and more framework specific. (Utility powers don't care about synergy, because you're only taking them for the utility they offer).

For example, it's already pretty much impossible to find a debuff that applies to all elemental damage, so the player who wants to play an 'elemental sorceror' either has to pass on any debuff, or use a different debuff for every element she uses. Either way, that concept is at a disadvantage next to any one-framework build, despite it being a perfectly thematic character concept which just happens to break framework lines.

And frankly, the term 'frankenbuild' is offensive. Players want to play cross-framework characters. Even non-minmaxers, because their character concepts and themes don't necessarily fall within the themes laid out by Cryptic as frameworks. That doesn't make the players wrong, and freeform's permissive nature is supposed to be about designing the hero you want to play, not just a pretense at not having classes while the game tries to force you into effective 'classes' by having cross-framework synergy extraordinarily limited. Dismissively referring to builds which happen to use cross-framework synergies as 'frankenbuilds' is pretty much accusing them of having no theme, engaging in badwrongfun, and playing the game wrong. Stop that.

Let's also not confuse generalized min-maxing (find the best build possible - generally the domain of the pvp crowd, who should be totally ignored for CO - and there will always be a best build) and thematic min-maxing (maximizing the potential of a particular theme, combination of powers, etc... what a lot of theme builders do). Thematic min-maxing is a plus in the player population, and it lends itself to even poor powers being used and players trying to find ways to make them good because those powers happen to have a nice look or are thematic for a certain concept. And Cryptic will never lay down enough supported themes to satisfy the player base - just look at how long we've gone without a sonic powerset. Players will cross-framework to create 'themes' they want to play, so long as the system is permissive enough that it doesn't feel like a futile effort. Too much tightening of frameworks to only work with themselves will kill that kind of creativity.

chaelk · March 2016

and where does the " competent players use str on melee tank and con is for ranged tanks" come into those groups?
also the " no-one uses cleave after level 17" I do.

spinnytop · March 2016

squirrelloid said:

You contradicted yourself there. That is forcing you to play a certain way, because its not some generalizable suite of abilities, it's a particular, framework-specific suite of abilities (which they are systematically making more framework-specific and more particular). So yeah, you can choose any framework, but there's only one right way to play that framework (or sub-framework/power) in the current development vision.

This is simply untrue. You are not required to take any given number of powers from HW post-changes in order to make it work. If your theme requires that you only take one or two powers from Heavy Weapons, then you'll be able to do that, and your build will still be functional ( the exact degree of functionality in various areas will be determined by the rest of your build, and no that doesn't mean "how much of the rest of your build is HW powers" ).

squirrelloid said:

My problems with the heavy weapon / devastator tinkering are precisely on point here - Kaiserin doesn't see a problem with Devastator energy management because he assumes and requires that everyone use Clinging Flames with Thermal Reverberation to 'play HW correctly'. So those of us who don't want to use clinging flames simply aren't of consequence because our fun is badwrongfun. And those optional advantages which create clinging flames stacks in the first place aren't really optional - they're actually mandatory. That's forcing players to build a particular way in order to function to use that framework.

Actually, Heavy Weapons has fantastic energy management before Clinging Flames is even part of the picture. If anything, letting the framework gain access to Thermal Reverberation is overkill in the energy department, when you consider how many ways the framework already has to keep its energy practically topped off.

squirrelloid said:

And that kind of design philosophy completely kills cross-framework characters, because it will become harder and harder to find non-utility powers which work together cross-framework as buffs/debuffs/power synergies get forced to become more and more framework specific. (Utility powers don't care about synergy, because you're only taking them for the utility they offer).

For example, it's already pretty much impossible to find a debuff that applies to all elemental damage, so the player who wants to play an 'elemental sorceror' either has to pass on any debuff, or use a different debuff for every element she uses. Either way, that concept is at a disadvantage next to any one-framework build, despite it being a perfectly thematic character concept which just happens to break framework lines.

Yes, buffs are trending more towards being "in set". This is a positive change for theme builds - nothing breaks a theme faster than having to grab some attack that doesn't make sense for the theme just so you can get the buff. How many Heavy Weapons players are there who have to frequently drop their sword to do a big dumb upward double fist attack currently? Put your sword away and whip out two guns that you shoot once to make your target take more damage from your sword? How about instead I hit my target with my big dumb sword, and then keep hitting it with my big dumb sword, because my theme is a hero who uses a big dumb sword, and at no point am I missing out on objectively better damage because I chose to keep to my theme.

And yes, if you want to make your "elemental sorcerer" and you just have to have every single element have a debuff to go with it, then you can go ahead and do that. That option is there. The idea is a bit questionable, and I'd love it if you would give an actual example of the build you're proposing so we can go through and talk about what you would actually gain regarding gameplay for doing this ( since your theme is perfectly safe... your theme demands a bunch of different elemental powers, and you'll have those a'plenty ).

squirrelloid said:

And frankly, the term 'frankenbuild' is offensive. Players want to play cross-framework characters. Even non-minmaxers, because their character concepts and themes don't necessarily fall within the themes laid out by Cryptic as frameworks. That doesn't make the players wrong, and freeform's permissive nature is supposed to be about designing the hero you want to play, not just a pretense at not having classes while the game tries to force you into effective 'classes' by having cross-framework synergy extraordinarily limited. Dismissively referring to builds which happen to use cross-framework synergies as 'frankenbuilds' is pretty much accusing them of having no theme, engaging in badwrongfun, and playing the game wrong. Stop that.

Let's also not confuse generalized min-maxing (find the best build possible - generally the domain of the pvp crowd, who should be totally ignored for CO - and there will always be a best build) and thematic min-maxing (maximizing the potential of a particular theme, combination of powers, etc... what a lot of theme builders do). Thematic min-maxing is a plus in the player population, and it lends itself to even poor powers being used and players trying to find ways to make them good because those powers happen to have a nice look or are thematic for a certain concept. And Cryptic will never lay down enough supported themes to satisfy the player base - just look at how long we've gone without a sonic powerset. Players will cross-framework to create 'themes' they want to play, so long as the system is permissive enough that it doesn't feel like a futile effort. Too much tightening of frameworks to only work with themselves will kill that kind of creativity.

As someone who builds for theme and often likes to make cross-framework characters, I don't find the term "frankenbuilding" offensive at all. It means what it means, to patch together a build from multiple frameworks. I personally have no negative connotations regarding that activity.

Creating more robust powers that do more things and have more synergies can only help to foster build creativity - because synergies and using them is what makes being a free form interesting ( and is why that "one best build" meta we have is so terribly uninteresting ). Right now, all you can see is how these powers have synergy with other powers in their own set - me, I'm already working out how to combine sets. Just imagine, a meta where it's not just about picking powers for looks, but about picking powers for looks and function. It's high time that theme building stopped getting the short end of the stick.

mijjestic · March 2016

squirrelloid said:
For example, it's already pretty much impossible to find a debuff that applies to all elemental damage, so the player who wants to play an 'elemental sorceror' either has to pass on any debuff, or use a different debuff for every element she uses. Either way, that concept is at a disadvantage next to any one-framework build, despite it being a perfectly thematic character concept which just happens to break framework lines.

Firesnake still debuffs Elemental, just not as much. I guess now it'll help out more teammates, with the HW changes. 9% Real plus more to debuff it's own damage, plus it's other perks is likely worth a slot to an Elemental user. Though one is left asking themselves 'why don't I just go straight fire' at that point.

It also still works pretty well for Rimefire...

squirrelloid · March 2016

mijjestic said:

squirrelloid said:
For example, it's already pretty much impossible to find a debuff that applies to all elemental damage, so the player who wants to play an 'elemental sorceror' either has to pass on any debuff, or use a different debuff for every element she uses. Either way, that concept is at a disadvantage next to any one-framework build, despite it being a perfectly thematic character concept which just happens to break framework lines.
Firesnake still debuffs Elemental, just not as much. I guess now it'll help out more teammates, with the HW changes. 9% Real plus more to debuff it's own damage, plus it's other perks is likely worth a slot to an Elemental user. Though one is left asking themselves 'why don't I just go straight fire' at that point.

It also still works pretty well for Rimefire...

1. Most people mean classical elements - fire/water(ice)/air(lightning/wind)/earth(crushing) - by elemental. The game doesn't. Elemental in-game is fire/ice/*toxic* (i don't even know why that's there, since its disease flavor. Acid would at least make sense, as its the DnD earth 'special damage type', but we have no acid powers).

So on the one hand, stormbringer is your best offensive passive. (Gets 3 of 4 damage types - lightning, ice, crushing). But it has no resistance debuffer.

On the other hand, firesnake on live gets two of the four. That's not particularly impressive synergy.

2. Isn't firesnake being changed to debuff fire only? I thought i saw that on one of the PTS thread notes...

nacito · March 2016

spinnytop said:
Yes, buffs are trending more towards being "in set". This is a positive change for theme builds - nothing breaks a theme faster than having to grab some attack that doesn't make sense for the theme just so you can get the buff. How many Heavy Weapons players are there who have to frequently drop their sword to do a big dumb upward double fist attack currently? Put your sword away and whip out two guns that you shoot once to make your target take more damage from your sword? How about instead I hit my target with my big dumb sword, and then keep hitting it with my big dumb sword, because my theme is a hero who uses a big dumb sword, and at no point am I missing out on objectively better damage because I chose to keep to my theme.

I wanna hit my enemy with a big dumb sword all the time!

still waiting for changes to HW to come out tho

theanothername · March 2016

Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?

nacito · March 2016

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?

yep

spinnytop · March 2016

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?

Don't worry you'll get over it.

squirrelloid · March 2016

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.

Or he'll stop playing the character, and no one will encourage players to pick up devastators because all the current devastator players got burned. (Pun intended).

I think you'll find many players care deeply about thematic things like this.

theanothername: go leave feedback on the current PTS thread now.

spinnytop · March 2016

squirrelloid said:

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.
Or he'll stop playing the character, and no one will encourage players to pick up devastators because all the current devastator players got burned. (Pun intended).

I think you'll find many players care deeply about thematic things like this.

theanothername: go leave feedback on the current PTS thread now.

Don't worry you'll get over it.

PS - people stop playing characters and delete characters all the time, why should anyone be concerned now? I've deleted plenty of characters, nobody ever lost their potatoes over it.

nacito · March 2016

mmmmm potatoes

squirrelloid · March 2016

spinnytop said:

squirrelloid said:

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.
Or he'll stop playing the character, and no one will encourage players to pick up devastators because all the current devastator players got burned. (Pun intended).

I think you'll find many players care deeply about thematic things like this.

theanothername: go leave feedback on the current PTS thread now.
Don't worry you'll get over it.

PS - people stop playing characters and delete characters all the time, why should anyone be concerned now? I've deleted plenty of characters, nobody ever lost their potatoes over it.

If by getting over you mean 'playing the game less', well yeah, probably. I've already started playing less because of the devastator changes that are coming. But pretty much not spending a dime on CO again after this. It's pretty sucky to have something I can't even retcon to fix, because they're making particular choices i have no interest in mandatory to even play the AT in a way that isn't completely awful for thematic reasons. There's been literally no give on a Devastator build which allows focusing on not-obviously-fire-themed stuff that looks-like-hitting-people-with-a-sword and doesn't-crap-out-on-energy.

Also, i've never deleted characters.

mijjestic · March 2016

squirrelloid said:
1. Most people mean classical elements - fire/water(ice)/air(lightning/wind)/earth(crushing) - by elemental. The game doesn't. Elemental in-game is fire/ice/*toxic* (i don't even know why that's there, since its disease flavor. Acid would at least make sense, as its the DnD earth 'special damage type', but we have no acid powers).

So on the one hand, stormbringer is your best offensive passive. (Gets 3 of 4 damage types - lightning, ice, crushing). But it has no resistance debuffer.

On the other hand, firesnake on live gets two of the four. That's not particularly impressive synergy.

Ah, you said 'Elemental damage' so I thought you meant it literally. Very true that there isn't a debuffer for that particular concept. Ideally most debuffs would effect a cluster of related things by say 10-12%, and their specific intended set by a higher amount, in addition, very much like the new Firesnake (as I've seen it). Just 1 or 2 narrow damage types is pretty boring (and if the debuff is lesser for the out-of-sets, specialization rewards remain intact).

squirrelloid said:
2. Isn't firesnake being changed to debuff fire only? I thought i saw that on one of the PTS thread notes...

Haven't been on PTS in a while but last change I recall was 3 stacks of -3% to all Elemental, -5% to Fire, and a 5 second reduction in CD, with ranks not affecting this and instead increasing damage and chance to apply Clinging Flames. With the CD thing and the quicker stacking, the nerf is somewhat lessened, and maybe a bit more with the speedy ADV being more competitive with ranks (as they don't affect the debuff like before).

roughbearmattach · March 2016

spinnytop said:

Don't worry you'll get over it.

PS - people stop playing characters and delete characters all the time, why should anyone be concerned now? I've deleted plenty of characters, nobody ever lost their potatoes over it.

Most players can get over changes they dislike, true. Thematic changes that annoy players just seems like poor QoL decisions on the part of the Dev team.

Imagine that your favorite costume parts, Spinny, were changed to only use the leather texture, and one color channel for some perceived Dev reason. For many, the fire additions to HW feels like that.

spinnytop · March 2016

roughbearmattach said:

Imagine that your favorite costume parts, Spinny, were changed to only use the leather texture, and one color channel for some perceived Dev reason. For many, the fire additions to HW feels like that.

This doesn't seem like a good comparison. Are people forgetting that Heavy Weapons attacks have had fire on them for years? This isn't some dramatic change to the set. People are acting like this came completely out of left field and all of a sudden today for the first time the concept of "Heavy Weapons + Fire" was seen in the game.... but my Heavy Weapons have had fire on them since I started playing this game. Why now all of a sudden is it some big dramatic reason to "play the game less" and "not spend money"?

PS - I've "played less" and "not spent money" in the past... and nobody lost their potatoes over it. It's fine if you stop playing or don't spend money.

squirrelloid · March 2016

spinnytop said:

roughbearmattach said:

Imagine that your favorite costume parts, Spinny, were changed to only use the leather texture, and one color channel for some perceived Dev reason. For many, the fire additions to HW feels like that.
This doesn't seem like a good comparison. Are people forgetting that Heavy Weapons attacks have had fire on them for years? This isn't some dramatic change to the set. People are acting like this came completely out of left field and all of a sudden today for the first time the concept of "Heavy Weapons + Fire" was seen in the game.... but my Heavy Weapons have had fire on them since I started playing this game. Why now all of a sudden is it some big dramatic reason to "play the game less" and "not spend money"?

PS - I've "played less" and "not spent money" in the past... and nobody lost their potatoes over it. It's fine if you stop playing or don't spend money.

A small handful of HW attacks have had fire on them for years. Brimstone is the only one I can think of that was split damage before. (Maybe Earthsplitter also, but as I've noted before, *no one plays with it*). Eruption had an advantage that added a little fire damage to its pure crushing damage. It was perfectly possible to play HW and deal nothing but crushing damage before the change.

But even with the fire/crushing split damage, making the set (and especially the AT) revolve around *clinging flames* application, something *that wasn't even possible without specific, highly optional advantages* before, is a major thematic change that is coming out of left field. And many of us played characters based around hitting stuff with a big sword, not setting things on fire.

And wrecking what was a basic bread-and-butter attack to make it have totally new functionality, and completely killing its old functionality (yes, its old functionality intrinsically depended on low cd time), is a major change that breaks a lot of builds and playstyle aesthetics - and not in a positive way. Even for FFs, it forces splashing something from another set and looking silly as your weapon disappears all the time. The visual aesthetic of hitting something with a big weapon is an important part of the framework's appeal.

decorumfriends · March 2016

Maybe that's it. Spinny, what if they nerfed your POTATOES???

theanothername · March 2016

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.

Maybe I will; maybe I wont. One of my attacks; the big AOE, has additional fire. Its one. Its OK. I turn a blind eye. The closest elemental theme I would have assumed with my character on the other side would have been ice; shadowy coldness; something along the line of that; nicely reflected in my second (or rather heroform) hideout: The frozen cave. Fire is extremely far away from anything I would have attributed to that char and I know even if I "get over it" it would always annoy me to some point.

squirrelloid said:

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.
Or he'll stop playing the character, and no one will encourage players to pick up devastators because all the current devastator players got burned. (Pun intended).

I think you'll find many players care deeply about thematic things like this.

theanothername: go leave feedback on the current PTS thread now.

I was always a silver player on CO. I have no problems to spend bucks on stuff I like; like the Dev AT (full price IIRC; its several years ago); several hideouts, a free-form token or just minor stuff (i.e. costume slots). I play far to irregular with long breaks to have a worthwhile sub. But in the end: No PTS.

edit:
If thats the PTS thread I somehow managed to post there: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1204588/my-big-dumb-i-wish-heavy-weapons-was-this-thread

Either I completely misunderstood the silver restrictions; or something is bugged; or paying Cryptic lots & lots of money over the years on CO and STO + long time (but currently paused) STO sub gives special posting rights

squirrelloid · March 2016

theanothername said:

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.
Maybe I will; maybe I wont. One of my attacks; the big AOE, has additional fire. Its one. Its OK. I turn a blind eye. The closest elemental theme I would have assumed with my character on the other side would have been ice; shadowy coldness; something along the line of that; nicely reflected in my second (or rather heroform) hideout: The frozen cave. Fire is extremely far away from anything I would have attributed to that char and I know even if I "get over it" it would always annoy me to some point.
squirrelloid said:

spinnytop said:

theanothername said:
Wait what fire? My Devastator main is no frigging fire mage damnit; she beats up stuff with a big sword. Close quarters.

*sigh* Freeform Tokens still only open up a new slot instead of giving the ability to switch one AT to FF?
Don't worry you'll get over it.
Or he'll stop playing the character, and no one will encourage players to pick up devastators because all the current devastator players got burned. (Pun intended).

I think you'll find many players care deeply about thematic things like this.

theanothername: go leave feedback on the current PTS thread now.
I was always a silver player on CO. I have no problems to spend bucks on stuff I like; like the Dev AT (full price IIRC; its several years ago); several hideouts, a free-form token or just minor stuff (i.e. costume slots). I play far to irregular with long breaks to have a worthwhile sub. But in the end: No PTS.

edit:
If thats the PTS thread I somehow managed to post there: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1204588/my-big-dumb-i-wish-heavy-weapons-was-this-thread

Either I completely misunderstood the silver restrictions; or something is bugged; or paying Cryptic lots & lots of money over the years on CO and STO + long time (but currently paused) STO sub gives special posting rights

You'd actually be looking for the PTS build feedback threads. The most recent one is: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1204726/fc-31-20160210-42-bug-fixes

But the devastator changes have been rolled out over the last ~8 of those, so you'd need to check a bunch of them to see what they've said is changing since you can't get on PTS to just look.

theanothername · March 2016

Considering that everything else is either closed; weeks old or unrelated I guess I already posted in the most relevant thread over there (its in the same section as the link you posted). At the current point I see no reason to fart my uneducated opinion of this on a third thread. By that time I have to assume that the devs know that forcing an specific elemental theme to a cash-shop class which was without such a theme does not sit well with everybody.

Edit:
If the Devs did not planned 2 overhauls in 2 Weeks the changes are already live. Played around a bit (40 solo hotspot stuff; nothing fancy); besides one active skill removed its mostly the same with a bit more fire.

...but now that I read Spinnytops ice suggestion in that other thread I want that :P

avianos · March 2016

spinnytop wrote: »

Don't worry you'll get over it.

PS - people stop playing characters and delete characters all the time, why should anyone be concerned now? I've deleted plenty of characters, nobody ever lost their potatoes over it.

That's because you never Develop or get Attached with your characters

championshewolf · March 2016

avianos wrote: »

That's because you never Develop or get Attached with your characters

I do, and guess what. I do get over it. This whole "HW has fire on it now" is just another classic example of an extreme overreaction to change. You can make anything fit your theme, that is the point of an open ended game. If we got people who can claim that coloring fire blue makes it cold (even though blue flame is hotter than orange flame) or people using fireballs with psionic bubbles and call it thematic, I am pretty sure this is just another one of those things.

mijjestic · March 2016

The only person who can say something breaks their concept is the one who's concept it is. It isn't like game mechanics where we can gauge and debate the relative balance. It's inherently subjective rather than just indirectly.

What we can say, if we're being reasonable, is that any given visual and conceptual changes can break some people's concepts and it can't be construed as a good thing for most of those people. I'd say most people are attached to their characters in MMOs. Of course there are silver linings to it, such as the breeding and infusion of new concepts, but overall I don't care for these sorts of changes unless they're made inherently optional. They did not go for that, though (despite rampant suggestions therein), which does tend to lend credence to Spinny's theory about reducing Crushing damage proliferation, or some other weird 'Big Picture' thing they won't bother telling us.

I would put my money on general Dev stubbornness and loving their own ideas, or whatever other personal-level opinionated perspective. I mean why not if people 'crying' about it on the forums has no direct backlash? Might even be an outlook along the lines of, 'doesn't matter what we do they'll cry about it, anyway'. Doesn't mean that's right, but it's a natural defense mechanism when someone invests their time into something and others become the judge.

I would have been impressed if they put the additional effort in to separate the concepts, because to me that would only be a good thing. You'd preserve old concepts if that's what people wanted and you'd have new ones. Win Win.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

championshewolf said:

I do, and guess what. I do get over it. This whole "HW has fire on it now" is just another classic example of an extreme overreaction to change. You can make anything fit your theme, that is the point of an open ended game. If we got people who can claim that coloring fire blue makes it cold (even though blue flame is hotter than orange flame) or people using fireballs with psionic bubbles and call it thematic, I am pretty sure this is just another one of those things.

This is similar to costume, in that the visual FX are very important to character theme.

Like I said to Spinny, imagine if your favorite costume parts, integral to your character theme, were made to be "metal only". For instance, all furry body parts. Then you could still make a werewolf character, but it would have to be a metallic one. Maybe you could figure something out, but your set of choices would be more limited.

It's kinda like that. Characters who wanted a non-fiery/non-energy HW toon now have a hard time doing so, using a more limited set of choices.

chaelk · March 2016

Having seen Ferrous Mewler, the cyborg cat. Someone already worked out a way around that.
IF something changes in my costumes, I see if it's still workable. swap bits if I have to.
I wasn't bought up to think, everything should go my way. I was taught things change, to see what's changed and deal with it.

Yes, it would have been better if they had made all the fire bits, advantages, with a choice of fire or a non fire adv but they may not have thought of that.

Same with power changes.
Dodge changes- we had the hysteria thread about how people would have to use Defensive passives to level now.
All the QQ over 2GM, I just swapped my EB from pistol to Boomerang and kept everything else where it was.
Someone else, who I didn't even see posting on that thread , was going on in Trade and Zone about how it had been nerfed and was useless now. I saw one of their characters after the patch, still using 2GM, still spamming it.
People seem to treat powers/items as their own personal property.

As for the , only recommending something you like. I don't because what I like, is not necessarily what somebody else likes. So I give a rough description of the ones likely to fit their stated interest and let them decide.

Slylager, our forum troll, who hasn't been on in a while, does that. They dared to change things he liked, so he tells people not to play the game because it's awful. Doesn't think to let people make up their own mind.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

For the record, I've gotten over it. I am disappointed that a lot of fire was added without it being optional/advantaged, but it isn't the end of the game for me. On the other hand, I have dozens of toons, and my main didn't use HW.

Despite this, I can still put myself in others' shoes, and I can see that the changes bother some of them. It's tiring to see people saying, essentially, "Your opinion and how you feel is wrong."

Devastator players: get yourself to the PTS forum

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