Yes, it would have been better if they had made all the fire bits, advantages, with a choice of fire or a non fire adv but they may not have thought of that.
The only way they wouldn't have thought of it is if they didn't read the PTS thread and they definitely do (despite certain conspiratorial theories), so...
That's because you never Develop or get Attached with your characters
I actually get quite attached to them. How would you know, you barely ever even talk to me and for several months you had me on ignore because I supported nerfs to certain powers
I have to assume that the devs know that forcing an specific elemental theme to a cash-shop class which was without such a theme does not sit well with everybody.
...but now that I read Spinnytops ice suggestion in that other thread I want that :P
Don't worry, the devs know that a lot of the things they're going to be doing won't "sit well with everybody". They've made their peace with that and are continuing onward, for the good of the game.
It's kinda like that. Characters who wanted a non-fiery/non-energy HW toon now have a hard time doing so, using a more limited set of choices.
Yeah, but their choices were already very limited before. Going with your analogy before, let's look at it this way: this is like if the Rock costume set had fire on the majority of the pieces, but for some reason not on the hands, and then one day they decided to add fire to the hand part. So I had a costume that depended on that non-fiery hip part that was some sort of ice character and the hand part was some sort of "ice spirit" that had latched onto my character's hands and allowed them to use ice powers, and there's no other piece in the game that even remotely comes close, and I'm an AT who can't color the fire blue. Everything is ruined, time to quit the game... well no, not really, I would just use something else instead and then change the word "big ice fist" to "ice gauntlet" in my description... and no one would say anything about it and I would keep playing. See this is why the costume analogy isn't really that great...
To use a better analogy: Let's say I have a ice barbarian who uses a big blue colored sword and I used the small number of heavy weapons powers for that, and I'm a silver player. Krondor the Ice God Avatar, Forbidden to use flame, ever, for any reason, can't even heat his food with it! No way this character would ever use fire in any form whatsoever! And I am MARRIED to this theme... I wrote my own we comic for it that people follow, I cosplay as this character at cons, I constantly brag to my friends about my awesome Ice Guy in champions online and how he's the only character I'll ever play and I'd sooner stab my own leg with a fork than not play him! ...well, then in the next issue of Krondor his mythical ice sword was melted by unholy flame in a battle with fire demons and it's smaller now and he uses Single Blade attacks now... or maybe it cracked in two and he's Dual Blades. That's just what I'd do if I was in that situation tho, what with the web comic and such.
On the other hand, more realistically since I remember I had a lot of fun on my Devastator, I would just write him up a whole new story where he's a guy with a big dumb fire sword now.
I'm not saying anyone has to do this, I'm not saying anyone should do this, I'm not saying anyone is wrong if they don't want to do this, I'm not saying anyone can't do something other than this, I'm not saying anyone is wrong for voicing their opinion that they don't like this, have you ever seen my thread I made in the PTS where I myself posted I don't like this someone else linked it here in the thread, I'm not saying anyone is wrong for feeling like they have less options now, and I'm not saying other people aren't allowed to have opinions, why does it feel like there are some people on this forum who actually necessitate this type of disclaimer on the end of every forum post that happens to disagree with them despite the fact that everyone else understands when people are giving their opinion, did I mention that thread I made where I said heavy weapons should have access to like three different elements as well as being playable without any elemental graphics at all, I'm just saying that that's what I would do because roughbear very specifically asked me what I would do if some costume pieces had their material options changed and so I specifically answered his question and even answered it in a less analogical way so I could give a more specific answer.
I'm just saying that that's what I would do because roughbear very specifically asked me what I would do if some costume pieces had their material options changed and so I specifically answered his question and even answered it in a less analogical way so I could give a more specific answer.
Thanks for clarification, Spinny. It's good to see acknowledging other points of view. Ironically, the post you were responding to was actually in reference to Silverspar's comment.
Well when you fire a shotgun at a crowd, nobody knows you were only aiming at one guy.
Me personally, even if the person put no special effort forth to indicate as such, I always view posts where people give an opposing view point as "this is why I disagree", rather than "this is why you're wrong". I mean, in the end they're essentially the same thing... some people just view it as one rather than the other and then decide that the person giving their opinion is doing something wrong. Seems silly to me... I'd rather everyone just respect each other's right to give opposing opinions.
The devs were pretty clear that pushing HW towards a mix of fire/crushing was not negotiable. Plenty of people made somewhat reasonable suggestions on alternatives. But at the end of the day, players aren't developers. We can only offer an opinion - and the powers that be can take that into consideration.
And my guess is that they did.
My only beef is that the reasoning why changing an existing AT's playstyle wasn't simply revealed to the players. As much as people gripe about NVW and STO - they do a great job of communicating the "why" of their decisions to the player base.
People may not like something - but knowing why can take the sting out of a drastic change.
I believe Spinny is right by speculating this is an attempt to add more variety to player damage types. So that helps me deal with it -rather than believing it's all just random.
I am sad that the Devstator I've had for years - John Henry - is not as much of a "steel driving man' as he used to be. But oh well - I renamed his "inertial hammer" to a "microfriction hammer" in his bio. Not the most elegant solution, but it works.
And the upside is, we do now have a little more variety in melee damage types. I'm assuming more is coming. Some melee particle damage would be nice.
The devs were pretty clear that pushing HW towards a mix of fire/crushing was not negotiable. Plenty of people made somewhat reasonable suggestions on alternatives. But at the end of the day, players aren't developers. We can only offer an opinion - and the powers that be can take that into consideration.
And my guess is that they did.
My only beef is that the reasoning why changing an existing AT's playstyle wasn't simply revealed to the players. As much as people gripe about NVW and STO - they do a great job of communicating the "why" of their decisions to the player base.
People may not like something - but knowing why can take the sting out of a drastic change.
I believe Spinny is right by speculating this is an attempt to add more variety to player damage types. So that helps me deal with it -rather than believing it's all just random.
It was never the damage type change that bothered me. It was completely changing Eruption's functionality so its old use was destroyed (that use depended on the low cd), and attempting to force Devastator players into using clinging flames, neither of which there's any possible reason for that isn't just an excuse - Earthsplitter is crying for attention and already does 100% CF proc. My devastator is at least 75% less fun to play now, and will probably only come out for vigilance maintenance or non-combat uses (Costume Contests). You win Cryptic, my fun was badwrongfun. Way to take your ball and go home.
You win Cryptic, my fun was badwrongfun. Way to take your ball and go home.
See it's when people post stuff like this that the whole "respect everyone's opinion" thing makes way for posting pics of emo kids.
I don't even know what you think this is supposed to mean. -What opinion am I disparaging? I'm referring to Cryptic's actions - and unless we're in some 1984-esque world where words have taken on sinister double meanings, *actions* are not *opinions*. -Cryptic respected no one's opinion -Cryptic made no attempt to accomodate those of us who want to actually look like we're fighting with a big sword, and not just some strange melee-range fire wizard -That quote is my opinion about what Cryptic did. Your snide remark is the very opposite of respecting anyone's opinion. -Yes my opinion is bitter. My character is no longer fun to play, having been subjected to a poorly thought-out change which completely ruined the entire visual aesthetic during combat. -It's also more than opinion, it's a falsifiable fact. Want to prove me wrong? Suggest a power that (1) Can be chosen with Skewer by a Devastator, (2) knocks 100% on tap, (3) is available every 3s or less, (4) even plausibly looks like you're a trained fighter hitting someone with a weapon in melee range. That power used to be eruption. Modifying the only power which satisfied those four requirements so it no longer does is 'taking their ball and going home'. (Especially because there were several suggestions floated which would have provided a devastator rebuild which met that, but Cryptic refused to even consider any of them). -And yes, my fun was strongly based on the visual appeal of looking like a melee combatant.
(And even if the stupid-long cd on eruption could be worked around, the change to make it AoE even without the Magma advantage is an aesthetics-breaker - unless you think you really can hit someone so hard all their friends go flying. It doesn't look like a melee attack anymore - it looks like magic).
Not that I should be surprised. You and the others defending the change still insist on mischaracterizing complaints as about the fire damage split instead of what people are actually complaining about - the visual aesthetic changes like CF (which makes people flail about like they're on fire - kinda hard to work around that thematically) or the new lack of any non-CF option that works as a knock with Skewer for Devastators which actually looks like someone using a sword as a weapon. No one sees the damage type they're dealing while fighting after all. If it was just damage-type splits, I wouldn't have complained at all, and I would have 'gotten over it'. But by all means, strawman away.
End of the day, not only does my Devastator actually use *fewer* of her powers now than she did before the change, she also looks like an incompetent moron while she's doing it. That's not a 'win' as far as modifying ATs go.
what is all this bullshit that keeps popping up about fire wizards? you people DO know that blades can be coated in flammable substances and ignited, i hope? this kind of thing even happened in real life! granted, it wasn't a common thing, but it DID happen
It seems like mostly somebody is upset that eruption can't be used quite so often and applying stacks of enrage is slightly slower using cleave... the oh no I'm a fire wizard now reaction is just an excuse to be extra salty as there are only 2 powers in the build that are not just Ima hit them with my big weapon type abilites.
So people are overacting over minor things and making mountains out of mole hills as usual... well I guess if they're going to complain they are in the right place to do it. My condolences to you unlucky few who are unhappy...personally these changes have only inspired me to play my devastator more.
It would be neat if you could switch the damage for heavy weapons to other elemental types...complaints about fire damage breaking theme actually seem more like a valid concern than gripes about eruption no longer being spammable.
what is all this bullshit that keeps popping up about fire wizards? you people DO know that blades can be coated in flammable substances and ignited, i hope? this kind of thing even happened in real life! granted, it wasn't a common thing, but it DID happen
Eruption knocking 5 people up is fire magic bs. Brimstone has always been fire magic. Earthsplitter has always been magic. CF is fire magic. The problem is that 'it's obviously magic' went from a small minority of powers to most of them.
Lighting someone on fire with a sword was never used in combat. (Flaming arrows - sure. It's one shot, you can light it right before you fire in relatively controlled circumstances, and it will deliver fire to the target. But a sword will not hold enough flammable material to stay lit long enough to even close to melee, because you can't carry a fire to light it around with you, and while it is lit it's a danger to yourself and everyone near you). Flaming swords are a circus and magic act made possible by the controlled setting and ample space provided to the performer.
If you want me to believe that setting a sword on fire has ever been used in a real combat setting, especially a battlefield setting, I'm going to require citations.
It seems like mostly somebody is upset that eruption can't be used quite so often and applying stacks of enrage is slightly slower using cleave... the oh no I'm a fire wizard now reaction is just an excuse to be extra salty as there are only 2 powers in the build that are not just Ima hit them with my big weapon type abilites.
The only three attacks that Devastators have now which actually look and perform anything like real weapon use (and i use that phrase incredibly loosely) are Skullcrusher and Skewer - of which they can only choose one - and Arc of Ruin, which is the mandatory debuff power. The only one of those that includes a knock can't be chosen with skewer.
Cleave: -Applies CF -Is junk performance-wise. It does less DPS than everything else that's a possible main attack in HW by ~40% or more. (Excluding only Earthsplitter, which is also junk, and it's issue is that it's *ranged*). -Not 100% knock on tap (That's actually a big issue, because you're basically stuck using Cleave for 20s straight to get up to 8 stacks every time there's a cutscene. And you can't rely on it to power Skewer because you're never sure how many strikes it'll take. And for an AT that wasn't unbalanced before, that's a huge dps nerf for no reason whatsoever). -If it was 100% knock on the first tap and no CF, the lackluster dps might almost be forgivable because it would only be .83s every 3-5s. But once it needs to be almost 3s of cleave to guarantee a knock, forget it. (Also wouldn't fix the aesthetics). -Looks clunky and unbalanced. You can't use a large sword like that. -Feels clunky to play with. Doesn't smoothly transition to other attacks, nor feel natural to combine with them. (The last strike has a longer activation time than anything else in HW, and while small, it's extremely noticeable when you try to combine cleave with other attacks, especially because of how the animation is synced with that activation time, it just feels like an unnatural pause before transitioning to your next strike). -Doesn't look like a professional fighter. Looks like you're just flailing and hoping to hit something. -For the above reasons, i don't find cleave fun. I would sooner not play a devastator than be forced to use Cleave.
This is especially sad because we have renaissance training manuals for how to use a hand-and-a-half sword. Skewer and Arc are the only attack Devastators have that are even kinda right. (Skullcrusher is maybe okay for axes and hammers, or even large swords used in an execution, but an exposed and awkward pose for in the thick of combat. Eruption was sort of okay when it only hit one person). I mean, my standards are actually pretty loose here - i'm accepting a lot of slop even in Skewer and Arc.
Decimate doesn't look like any real fighting, but 'lunge' in sword fighting is, um, not anything like lunges in CO, and not appropriate for a great weapon anyway. But at least you hit them with your sword i guess. And i know someone at Cryptic knows what a real lunge looks like, because NWO's gwf encounter power "flourish" looks pretty decent.
(Speaking of NWO, the gwf at-will 'sure strike' still looks silly and impractical, but it looks vastly better than cleave and not nearly so overbalanced or awkward).
And that covers literally all the powers Devastators get that actually hit anyone with a weapon at all. Brimstone hits *the ground* pommel first. Vicious Descent hits the ground blade first. (I'm not actually sure which of those is worse). Earthsplitter... i don't even know what that's doing... shoots invisible powers at the ground along the weapon so the ground explodes? I don't even know.
what is all this bullshit that keeps popping up about fire wizards? you people DO know that blades can be coated in flammable substances and ignited, i hope? this kind of thing even happened in real life! granted, it wasn't a common thing, but it DID happen
My latest heavy weapons user "Lava Girl" is a mutant. She looks like she has rocky lava skin and use the Rock Axe.
Disclaimer: I'm just leveling a character (freeform) with Heavy Weapons.
I'm finding the set very fun to use. I'm only level 15 so far, but I love the Eruption/Cleave combo. Knock dudes up, wreck 'em while they're trying to get back up, hop to the next group to repeat. I've taken Skewer for the big bosses. I don't mind the fiery aspects of the thing, and I really do like the animations.
That said I don't have any experience with the Archetype. I dig most of Squirreloid's complaints, but Eruption doesn't seem too weird knocking dudes up, you do make a huge, wide sword swing. And cutting them back down with Cleave looks cool.
I don't really mind if the attacks look real or not. It's supposed to be fantastical comics. I like how the animations play on the heft of the weapons. It's good stuff.
Overall I like the new stuff, but it's really worth mentioning that I didn't have intimate knowledge or experience with the previous version.
I was thinking of building a Silver John toon now that we have guitars as weapons but Silver John didn't have fire powers so that kind of limits my choices as far as designing a specific toon based on a specific concept. As it stands right now, if you want heavy weapons you need to accept also dealing fire damage, and if that's not a problem for you then this change might be very welcome for you.
It seems like mostly somebody is upset that eruption can't be used quite so often and applying stacks of enrage is slightly slower using cleave... the oh no I'm a fire wizard now reaction is just an excuse to be extra salty as there are only 2 powers in the build that are not just Ima hit them with my big weapon type abilites.
So people are overacting over minor things and making mountains out of mole hills as usual... well I guess if they're going to complain they are in the right place to do it. My condolences to you unlucky few who are unhappy...personally these changes have only inspired me to play my devastator more.
It would be neat if you could switch the damage for heavy weapons to other elemental types...complaints about fire damage breaking theme actually seem more like a valid concern than gripes about eruption no longer being spammable.
Disclaimer: I'm just leveling a character (freeform) with Heavy Weapons.
I'm finding the set very fun to use. I'm only level 15 so far, but I love the Eruption/Cleave combo. Knock dudes up, wreck 'em while they're trying to get back up, hop to the next group to repeat. I've taken Skewer for the big bosses. I don't mind the fiery aspects of the thing, and I really do like the animations.
That said I don't have any experience with the Archetype. I dig most of Squirreloid's complaints, but Eruption doesn't seem too weird knocking dudes up, you do make a huge, wide sword swing. And cutting them back down with Cleave looks cool.
I don't really mind if the attacks look real or not. It's supposed to be fantastical comics. I like how the animations play on the heft of the weapons. It's good stuff.
Overall I like the new stuff, but it's really worth mentioning that I didn't have intimate knowledge or experience with the previous version.
I, personally, have no problems with the strength of my character as she is now. Some attacks even appear to have a bigger AOE arc than before too. The CD of eruption... pff.. CDs change all the time. My kill speed still seems to have increased. (against sololevel lvl 40 enemy groups like nemesis minions & hotspots; did not any groupstuff yet).
My, and I guess this of several others, problem is the thematic feeling of that character changed involuntary. And a thematic feeling is IMHO one of the most important aspects of a Superhero. To visualize: When you hear "I'm Batman" on TV you do not expect a guy wearing a white spandex suit shooting bat-shaped firebolts out of his hands.
Of course you see no problem when you create a complete new character with the knowledge that this is very fire themed class now.
Then again, if I do not close enough, or think about it too much, its not that bad. Its not like I get the urge to put my char into robes and give her a wand.
Still would buy a change to freeform token in a heartbeat if it would exist.
Not that I should be surprised. You and the others defending the change still insist on mischaracterizing complaints as about the fire damage split instead of what people are actually complaining about - the visual aesthetic changes
Confirmed: You don't actually read the posts you talk about.
Yeah, but their choices were already very limited before. Going with your analogy before, let's look at it this way: this is like if the Rock costume set had fire on the majority of the pieces, but for some reason not on the hands, and then one day they decided to add fire to the hand part. So I had a costume that depended on that non-fiery hip part that was some sort of ice character and the hand part was some sort of "ice spirit" that had latched onto my character's hands and allowed them to use ice powers, and there's no other piece in the game that even remotely comes close, and I'm an AT who can't color the fire blue. Everything is ruined, time to quit the game... well no, not really, I would just use something else instead and then change the word "big ice fist" to "ice gauntlet" in my description... and no one would say anything about it and I would keep playing. See this is why the costume analogy isn't really that great...
To use a better analogy: Let's say I have a ice barbarian who uses a big blue colored sword and I used the small number of heavy weapons powers for that, and I'm a silver player. Krondor the Ice God Avatar, Forbidden to use flame, ever, for any reason, can't even heat his food with it! No way this character would ever use fire in any form whatsoever! And I am MARRIED to this theme... I wrote my own we comic for it that people follow, I cosplay as this character at cons, I constantly brag to my friends about my awesome Ice Guy in champions online and how he's the only character I'll ever play and I'd sooner stab my own leg with a fork than not play him! ...well, then in the next issue of Krondor his mythical ice sword was melted by unholy flame in a battle with fire demons and it's smaller now and he uses Single Blade attacks now... or maybe it cracked in two and he's Dual Blades. That's just what I'd do if I was in that situation tho, what with the web comic and such.
On the other hand, more realistically since I remember I had a lot of fun on my Devastator, I would just write him up a whole new story where he's a guy with a big dumb fire sword now.
So... you don't read what other people type, and then mischaracterize what they're saying.
I, personally, have no problems with the strength of my character as she is now. Some attacks even appear to have a bigger AOE arc than before too. The CD of eruption... pff.. CDs change all the time. My kill speed still seems to have increased. (against sololevel lvl 40 enemy groups like nemesis minions & hotspots; did not any groupstuff yet).
My, and I guess this of several others, problem is the thematic feeling of that character changed involuntary. And a thematic feeling is IMHO one of the most important aspects of a Superhero. To visualize: When you hear "I'm Batman" on TV you do not expect a guy wearing a white spandex suit shooting bat-shaped firebolts out of his hands.
Of course you see no problem when you create a complete new character with the knowledge that this is very fire themed class now.
Then again, if I do not close enough, or think about it too much, its not that bad. Its not like I get the urge to put my char into robes and give her a wand.
Still would buy a change to freeform token in a heartbeat if it would exist.
I barely only noticed a couple of times that dudes have been set on fire. I don't see a lot of fire effects on my sword. Thing is, I'm playing on like all low settings because my computer died and I have to play on my Surface, so that might be why.
Now, the character I made is mostly a joke, but seeing flames on his sword would kinda break the concept because, as it says in his bio, he's wielding a NERF sword (it's yellow and everything!) and he basically just pretends that he's hacking the crap out of his enemies (his name is Kill-Boy, so he pretends that he's just ruthless). But obviously the sword is some kinda magic thing since he can beat up grown men with it, but really it was just a thematic "how can I get this character to hack away at people but not be a murderer" thing.
But yeah fire and NERF don't mix, but at least the way I'm playing it right now, it doesn't seem to come off as very fiery.
All that said though, I do totally get the point of suddenly having your character's concept changed for you. I wouldn't like it either.
It seems like mostly somebody is upset that eruption can't be used quite so often and applying stacks of enrage is slightly slower using cleave... the oh no I'm a fire wizard now reaction is just an excuse to be extra salty as there are only 2 powers in the build that are not just Ima hit them with my big weapon type abilites.
So people are overacting over minor things and making mountains out of mole hills as usual... well I guess if they're going to complain they are in the right place to do it. My condolences to you unlucky few who are unhappy...personally these changes have only inspired me to play my devastator more.
It would be neat if you could switch the damage for heavy weapons to other elemental types...complaints about fire damage breaking theme actually seem more like a valid concern than gripes about eruption no longer being spammable.
No.
No it isn't a more valid concern that the fire attacks are breaking visual theme for certain characters? No this isn't the right place for people to complain? No the one person who is seemingly the most upset about this isn't complaining mostly about their build not functioning the same way as it did before?
It seems like mostly somebody is upset that eruption can't be used quite so often and applying stacks of enrage is slightly slower using cleave... the oh no I'm a fire wizard now reaction is just an excuse to be extra salty as there are only 2 powers in the build that are not just Ima hit them with my big weapon type abilites.
So people are overacting over minor things and making mountains out of mole hills as usual... well I guess if they're going to complain they are in the right place to do it. My condolences to you unlucky few who are unhappy...personally these changes have only inspired me to play my devastator more.
It would be neat if you could switch the damage for heavy weapons to other elemental types...complaints about fire damage breaking theme actually seem more like a valid concern than gripes about eruption no longer being spammable.
No.
No it isn't a more valid concern that the fire attacks are breaking visual theme for certain characters? No this isn't the right place for people to complain? No the one person who is seemingly the most upset about this isn't complaining mostly about their build not functioning the same way as it did before?
I am confused.
Heres the thing: Where is the right place? Im rather vexxed that so far any and all complaints are generally waved off or mocked because, "The devs are finally paying attention/that's enough". No. It's not. Voicing of opinions(even different ones! ). Are good for a game, dare I say, even the rather crass opinions add some kernel of assistance.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
No it isn't a more valid concern that the fire attacks are breaking visual theme for certain characters? No this isn't the right place for people to complain? No the one person who is seemingly the most upset about this isn't complaining mostly about their build not functioning the same way as it did before?
Heres the thing: Where is the right place? Im rather vexxed that so far any and all complaints are generally waved off or mocked because, "The devs are finally paying attention/that's enough". No. It's not. Voicing of opinions(even different ones! ). Are good for a game, dare I say, even the rather crass opinions add some kernel of assistance.
Beez is actually kind of right. I was switching between the post and got a bit carried away in the biffsmackwell answer which actually covered some of what beez wrote more elaborately than the blunt "no" and did not bother to double check. To other parts like the choice in what type of elemental damage I already said at least twice that I think it would be really awesome to have that for no other reason that frost/shadow is a sub-theme of my devastator.
I barely only noticed a couple of times that dudes have been set on fire. I don't see a lot of fire effects on my sword. Thing is, I'm playing on like all low settings because my computer died and I have to play on my Surface, so that might be why.
Now, the character I made is mostly a joke, but seeing flames on his sword would kinda break the concept because, as it says in his bio, he's wielding a NERF sword (it's yellow and everything!) and he basically just pretends that he's hacking the crap out of his enemies (his name is Kill-Boy, so he pretends that he's just ruthless). But obviously the sword is some kinda magic thing since he can beat up grown men with it, but really it was just a thematic "how can I get this character to hack away at people but not be a murderer" thing.
But yeah fire and NERF don't mix, but at least the way I'm playing it right now, it doesn't seem to come off as very fiery.
All that said though, I do totally get the point of suddenly having your character's concept changed for you. I wouldn't like it either.
I play with the graphics up all the way and honestly I do not see my blade on fire. My enemies sometimes randomly combust but there does not seem to have been any flaming sword animations added. So I would say that besides the fact that your enemies now may burst into flame not much has changed visually. Honestly, this set always had fire in it and for my Dragoness it is fitting to have more of it.
What bothers me If these changes are that drastic and different why didn't they just make a whole new powerset?
I would LOVE a Red Mage style set where you could hit with various elemental damage physically. Charge up your weapon with magical energy and then smack with it. Even so much as your normal hits are normal but then you can choose to add various effects as a temporary spell boost. So like you cast a fire spell and now your normal melee attacks get added fire damage and maybe a chance to inflict clinging flames as an example.
What bothers me If these changes are that drastic and different why didn't they just make a whole new powerset?
The answer, of course, is that they're not all that drastic and different.
^^^
Not sure why people are trying to make it seem like there were huge changes made. The only real changes I noticed with my HW character is that I do more damage and that I have a non-targeted aoe. Oh and cleave and eruption make my targets burn.
before: *big freaking weapon leaves orange trails that resembles fire all over the place, and some magma/fire related things* after: *now they set enemies on fire* o-o
Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
before: *big freaking weapon leaves orange trails that resembles fire all over the place, and some magma/fire related things* after: *now they set enemies on fire* o-o
Killing purse snatchers with fire thats going to really show them the error of their ways. The system works.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
before: *big freaking weapon leaves orange trails that resembles fire all over the place, and some magma/fire related things* after: *now they set enemies on fire* o-o
Killing purse snatchers with fire thats going to really show them the error of their ways. The system works.
Better than cutting them in half with a giant sword in broad daylight infront of children u3u
What bothers me If these changes are that drastic and different why didn't they just make a whole new powerset?
I would LOVE a Red Mage style set where you could hit with various elemental damage physically. Charge up your weapon with magical energy and then smack with it. Even so much as your normal hits are normal but then you can choose to add various effects as a temporary spell boost. So like you cast a fire spell and now your normal melee attacks get added fire damage and maybe a chance to inflict clinging flames as an example.
No more magic.. we have enough magic in CO. Science and Mutations dammit.. Science and Mutataions!!!!!!
I wish I knew more about the Devastator and Heavy Weapons, but I don't have any characters who use HW. Nevertheless, I had characters who were not in any way broken (over- or under-powered) which were nevertheless changed. So I'm having to side with squirrelloid on this one. You study your powers, you test them out, you get things the way you want, then have to change the way you play because the devs apparently just want to make changes.
I can also understand that some people like the changes...to each his/her own. I don't see how wording things to antagonize people is helpful, though. And PLEASE stop telling other people how to play.
You study your powers, you test them out, you get things the way you want, then have to change the way you play because the devs apparently just want to make changes
and in the process get a better performing character without having to do anything.
You study your powers, you test them out, you get things the way you want, then have to change the way you play because the devs apparently just want to make changes
and in the process get a better performing character without having to do anything.
I was talking about the Devastator, since its name is in the thread.
Except it's not. No, i don't care what Kaiserin thinks, my devastator is worse after the change. Can barely stand to play her.
Has nothing to do with what anyone thinks, be it Kaiserin, me, or you. It has to do with what the numbers show, and they show an objective improvement in performance for the archetype.
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Yeah, I'll get over it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Well, I'd put sour cream on them o3o
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Don't worry, the devs know that a lot of the things they're going to be doing won't "sit well with everybody". They've made their peace with that and are continuing onward, for the good of the game. Hope you're not trying to put those words in my mouth.
Yeah, but their choices were already very limited before. Going with your analogy before, let's look at it this way: this is like if the Rock costume set had fire on the majority of the pieces, but for some reason not on the hands, and then one day they decided to add fire to the hand part. So I had a costume that depended on that non-fiery hip part that was some sort of ice character and the hand part was some sort of "ice spirit" that had latched onto my character's hands and allowed them to use ice powers, and there's no other piece in the game that even remotely comes close, and I'm an AT who can't color the fire blue. Everything is ruined, time to quit the game... well no, not really, I would just use something else instead and then change the word "big ice fist" to "ice gauntlet" in my description... and no one would say anything about it and I would keep playing. See this is why the costume analogy isn't really that great...
To use a better analogy: Let's say I have a ice barbarian who uses a big blue colored sword and I used the small number of heavy weapons powers for that, and I'm a silver player. Krondor the Ice God Avatar, Forbidden to use flame, ever, for any reason, can't even heat his food with it! No way this character would ever use fire in any form whatsoever! And I am MARRIED to this theme... I wrote my own we comic for it that people follow, I cosplay as this character at cons, I constantly brag to my friends about my awesome Ice Guy in champions online and how he's the only character I'll ever play and I'd sooner stab my own leg with a fork than not play him! ...well, then in the next issue of Krondor his mythical ice sword was melted by unholy flame in a battle with fire demons and it's smaller now and he uses Single Blade attacks now... or maybe it cracked in two and he's Dual Blades. That's just what I'd do if I was in that situation tho, what with the web comic and such.
On the other hand, more realistically since I remember I had a lot of fun on my Devastator, I would just write him up a whole new story where he's a guy with a big dumb fire sword now.
I'm not saying anyone has to do this, I'm not saying anyone should do this, I'm not saying anyone is wrong if they don't want to do this, I'm not saying anyone can't do something other than this, I'm not saying anyone is wrong for voicing their opinion that they don't like this, have you ever seen my thread I made in the PTS where I myself posted I don't like this someone else linked it here in the thread, I'm not saying anyone is wrong for feeling like they have less options now, and I'm not saying other people aren't allowed to have opinions, why does it feel like there are some people on this forum who actually necessitate this type of disclaimer on the end of every forum post that happens to disagree with them despite the fact that everyone else understands when people are giving their opinion, did I mention that thread I made where I said heavy weapons should have access to like three different elements as well as being playable without any elemental graphics at all, I'm just saying that that's what I would do because roughbear very specifically asked me what I would do if some costume pieces had their material options changed and so I specifically answered his question and even answered it in a less analogical way so I could give a more specific answer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The whole thing just has a shot in the own foot feeling to it. (edit: to clarify; not by doing something, but by they way how they did).
He who posts 2 years before he joins
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/10732872
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
this is what I get for starting halfway down the page, while eating .
nearly sprayed the screen.
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You win this round, potato master!
**goes to hunt up a potato masher for next time**
Ironically, the post you were responding to was actually in reference to Silverspar's comment.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Me personally, even if the person put no special effort forth to indicate as such, I always view posts where people give an opposing view point as "this is why I disagree", rather than "this is why you're wrong". I mean, in the end they're essentially the same thing... some people just view it as one rather than the other and then decide that the person giving their opinion is doing something wrong. Seems silly to me... I'd rather everyone just respect each other's right to give opposing opinions.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And my guess is that they did.
My only beef is that the reasoning why changing an existing AT's playstyle wasn't simply revealed to the players. As much as people gripe about NVW and STO - they do a great job of communicating the "why" of their decisions to the player base.
People may not like something - but knowing why can take the sting out of a drastic change.
I believe Spinny is right by speculating this is an attempt to add more variety to player damage types. So that helps me deal with it -rather than believing it's all just random.
I am sad that the Devstator I've had for years - John Henry - is not as much of a "steel driving man' as he used to be. But oh well - I renamed his "inertial hammer" to a "microfriction hammer" in his bio. Not the most elegant solution, but it works.
And the upside is, we do now have a little more variety in melee damage types. I'm assuming more is coming. Some melee particle damage would be nice.
-What opinion am I disparaging? I'm referring to Cryptic's actions - and unless we're in some 1984-esque world where words have taken on sinister double meanings, *actions* are not *opinions*.
-Cryptic respected no one's opinion
-Cryptic made no attempt to accomodate those of us who want to actually look like we're fighting with a big sword, and not just some strange melee-range fire wizard
-That quote is my opinion about what Cryptic did. Your snide remark is the very opposite of respecting anyone's opinion.
-Yes my opinion is bitter. My character is no longer fun to play, having been subjected to a poorly thought-out change which completely ruined the entire visual aesthetic during combat.
-It's also more than opinion, it's a falsifiable fact. Want to prove me wrong? Suggest a power that (1) Can be chosen with Skewer by a Devastator, (2) knocks 100% on tap, (3) is available every 3s or less, (4) even plausibly looks like you're a trained fighter hitting someone with a weapon in melee range. That power used to be eruption. Modifying the only power which satisfied those four requirements so it no longer does is 'taking their ball and going home'. (Especially because there were several suggestions floated which would have provided a devastator rebuild which met that, but Cryptic refused to even consider any of them).
-And yes, my fun was strongly based on the visual appeal of looking like a melee combatant.
(And even if the stupid-long cd on eruption could be worked around, the change to make it AoE even without the Magma advantage is an aesthetics-breaker - unless you think you really can hit someone so hard all their friends go flying. It doesn't look like a melee attack anymore - it looks like magic).
Not that I should be surprised. You and the others defending the change still insist on mischaracterizing complaints as about the fire damage split instead of what people are actually complaining about - the visual aesthetic changes like CF (which makes people flail about like they're on fire - kinda hard to work around that thematically) or the new lack of any non-CF option that works as a knock with Skewer for Devastators which actually looks like someone using a sword as a weapon. No one sees the damage type they're dealing while fighting after all. If it was just damage-type splits, I wouldn't have complained at all, and I would have 'gotten over it'. But by all means, strawman away.
End of the day, not only does my Devastator actually use *fewer* of her powers now than she did before the change, she also looks like an incompetent moron while she's doing it. That's not a 'win' as far as modifying ATs go.
So people are overacting over minor things and making mountains out of mole hills as usual... well I guess if they're going to complain they are in the right place to do it. My condolences to you unlucky few who are unhappy...personally these changes have only inspired me to play my devastator more.
It would be neat if you could switch the damage for heavy weapons to other elemental types...complaints about fire damage breaking theme actually seem more like a valid concern than gripes about eruption no longer being spammable.
Lighting someone on fire with a sword was never used in combat. (Flaming arrows - sure. It's one shot, you can light it right before you fire in relatively controlled circumstances, and it will deliver fire to the target. But a sword will not hold enough flammable material to stay lit long enough to even close to melee, because you can't carry a fire to light it around with you, and while it is lit it's a danger to yourself and everyone near you). Flaming swords are a circus and magic act made possible by the controlled setting and ample space provided to the performer.
If you want me to believe that setting a sword on fire has ever been used in a real combat setting, especially a battlefield setting, I'm going to require citations. The only three attacks that Devastators have now which actually look and perform anything like real weapon use (and i use that phrase incredibly loosely) are Skullcrusher and Skewer - of which they can only choose one - and Arc of Ruin, which is the mandatory debuff power. The only one of those that includes a knock can't be chosen with skewer.
Cleave:
-Applies CF
-Is junk performance-wise. It does less DPS than everything else that's a possible main attack in HW by ~40% or more. (Excluding only Earthsplitter, which is also junk, and it's issue is that it's *ranged*).
-Not 100% knock on tap (That's actually a big issue, because you're basically stuck using Cleave for 20s straight to get up to 8 stacks every time there's a cutscene. And you can't rely on it to power Skewer because you're never sure how many strikes it'll take. And for an AT that wasn't unbalanced before, that's a huge dps nerf for no reason whatsoever).
-If it was 100% knock on the first tap and no CF, the lackluster dps might almost be forgivable because it would only be .83s every 3-5s. But once it needs to be almost 3s of cleave to guarantee a knock, forget it. (Also wouldn't fix the aesthetics).
-Looks clunky and unbalanced. You can't use a large sword like that.
-Feels clunky to play with. Doesn't smoothly transition to other attacks, nor feel natural to combine with them. (The last strike has a longer activation time than anything else in HW, and while small, it's extremely noticeable when you try to combine cleave with other attacks, especially because of how the animation is synced with that activation time, it just feels like an unnatural pause before transitioning to your next strike).
-Doesn't look like a professional fighter. Looks like you're just flailing and hoping to hit something.
-For the above reasons, i don't find cleave fun. I would sooner not play a devastator than be forced to use Cleave.
This is especially sad because we have renaissance training manuals for how to use a hand-and-a-half sword. Skewer and Arc are the only attack Devastators have that are even kinda right. (Skullcrusher is maybe okay for axes and hammers, or even large swords used in an execution, but an exposed and awkward pose for in the thick of combat. Eruption was sort of okay when it only hit one person). I mean, my standards are actually pretty loose here - i'm accepting a lot of slop even in Skewer and Arc.
Decimate doesn't look like any real fighting, but 'lunge' in sword fighting is, um, not anything like lunges in CO, and not appropriate for a great weapon anyway. But at least you hit them with your sword i guess. And i know someone at Cryptic knows what a real lunge looks like, because NWO's gwf encounter power "flourish" looks pretty decent.
(Speaking of NWO, the gwf at-will 'sure strike' still looks silly and impractical, but it looks vastly better than cleave and not nearly so overbalanced or awkward).
And that covers literally all the powers Devastators get that actually hit anyone with a weapon at all. Brimstone hits *the ground* pommel first. Vicious Descent hits the ground blade first. (I'm not actually sure which of those is worse). Earthsplitter... i don't even know what that's doing... shoots invisible powers at the ground along the weapon so the ground explodes? I don't even know.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm finding the set very fun to use. I'm only level 15 so far, but I love the Eruption/Cleave combo. Knock dudes up, wreck 'em while they're trying to get back up, hop to the next group to repeat. I've taken Skewer for the big bosses. I don't mind the fiery aspects of the thing, and I really do like the animations.
That said I don't have any experience with the Archetype. I dig most of Squirreloid's complaints, but Eruption doesn't seem too weird knocking dudes up, you do make a huge, wide sword swing. And cutting them back down with Cleave looks cool.
I don't really mind if the attacks look real or not. It's supposed to be fantastical comics. I like how the animations play on the heft of the weapons. It's good stuff.
Overall I like the new stuff, but it's really worth mentioning that I didn't have intimate knowledge or experience with the previous version.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My, and I guess this of several others, problem is the thematic feeling of that character changed involuntary. And a thematic feeling is IMHO one of the most important aspects of a Superhero. To visualize: When you hear "I'm Batman" on TV you do not expect a guy wearing a white spandex suit shooting bat-shaped firebolts out of his hands.
Of course you see no problem when you create a complete new character with the knowledge that this is very fire themed class now.
Then again, if I do not close enough, or think about it too much, its not that bad. Its not like I get the urge to put my char into robes and give her a wand.
Still would buy a change to freeform token in a heartbeat if it would exist.
He who posts 2 years before he joins
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/10732872
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Now, the character I made is mostly a joke, but seeing flames on his sword would kinda break the concept because, as it says in his bio, he's wielding a NERF sword (it's yellow and everything!) and he basically just pretends that he's hacking the crap out of his enemies (his name is Kill-Boy, so he pretends that he's just ruthless). But obviously the sword is some kinda magic thing since he can beat up grown men with it, but really it was just a thematic "how can I get this character to hack away at people but not be a murderer" thing.
But yeah fire and NERF don't mix, but at least the way I'm playing it right now, it doesn't seem to come off as very fiery.
All that said though, I do totally get the point of suddenly having your character's concept changed for you. I wouldn't like it either.
I am confused.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
Group-hug anyone?
He who posts 2 years before he joins
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/10732872
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
42 40s, LTSer.
Not sure why people are trying to make it seem like there were huge changes made. The only real changes I noticed with my HW character is that I do more damage and that I have a non-targeted aoe. Oh and cleave and eruption make my targets burn.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
*big freaking weapon leaves orange trails that resembles fire all over the place, and some magma/fire related things*
after:
*now they set enemies on fire*
o-o
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
(Said with tongue and cheek and a laugh)
I can also understand that some people like the changes...to each his/her own. I don't see how wording things to antagonize people is helpful, though. And PLEASE stop telling other people how to play.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.