Regarding the new currencies pricing and revamp.

lilsteffie · February 2016

Alright so i don't post on the forums too much and i just need to get a lot of this off my chest, i understand a lot of people are infuriated with the new prices and hey, I think it's completely justified. But a lot of things irk me with the new update.

Yes now it is possible to get a lot of SCR, but that means nothing with the new pricing, it's still a minuscule amount compared to the new pricing of the items in the shop. So i think there needs to be a way to alleviate the load for those that have spare recognition lying around and make some use for them to make up for the pricing in the vendors.

Thats where i kinda thought, why is there no way to convert tokens UPWARDS, instead of just downwards?

(MCPD > Primus > UNTIL > Silver Champion)

Even with a 2 to 1 ratio i think it would be somewhat helpful to alleviate the load then. (Example 2 MCPD recognition = 1 Primus)

Another thought came to mind that, with the new pricing, it kinda defeats the purpose of making new alts all the time as most currencies (Except Salvage) can't be traded between characters. And with the new prices, it is hard to save up and still enjoy playing with your other characters without sticking to one and farming mobs.

We should still be able to make alts and enjoy the game. Lets eliminate the farming factor by a bit here.

Final word i'd like to put out there is that much like Drifter Salvage, all currencies should be able to be stored into the shared bank between all characters. We already have a few that can be shared so why not these ones?

Thoughts? Post'em.

emperornf · February 2016

You just gave me a great idea.
What if we could trade RECOGNITION between toons, just like we can salvage?
A way to deposit SCR and GCR to your hideout bank, something like that.
If at the end of the thread you decide to make a post in the "Suggestions" forum, feel very free to include that.

lilsteffie · February 2016

emperornf said:
You just gave me a great idea.
What if we could trade RECOGNITION between toons, just like we can salvage?
A way to deposit SCR and GCR to your hideout bank, something like that.
If at the end of the thread you decide to make a post in the "Suggestions" forum, feel very free to include that.

I've already suggested that in the post above. Well it wasn't really needed before but with the current pricing, I feel something like this need to be implemented.

emperornf · February 2016

Heh, i can't read. But yes, anyone could benefit from it now,

chaelk · February 2016

you can swap Mechanon for SCR.. at 5 for 1

chaelk · February 2016

emperornf wrote: »

You just gave me a great idea.
What if we could trade RECOGNITION between toons, just like we can salvage?
A way to deposit SCR and GCR to your hideout bank, something like that.
If at the end of the thread you decide to make a post in the "Suggestions" forum, feel very free to include that.

you missed the various posts in the PTS and other threads asking for Recognition to be made into account wide, so it collects from all and is available to all.

except with SCR/GCR that just means people will use their farmer characters to get gear for the others instead of using the actual characters that want the gear.

morigosa · February 2016

chaelk said:

except with SCR/GCR that just means people will use their farmer characters to get gear for the others instead of using the actual characters that want the gear.

So? If that's really a problem, leave GCR as per-character. The rest of them shouldn't be.

emperornf · February 2016

blank

jaazaniah1 · February 2016

The issue for me isn't wanting to use farming characters per se. It's more that I have 23 level 40s and I like using them all because they have different styles of play. Having to use 1 character only for some very long period will get dull. At lease with Rampage tokens I can use a wide variety of characters to get the gear, not just the one that will get it (for this point I am not interested in issues of drop rates for tokens). For me this is the main reason that SCR and GCR should go into a single account pool. It's a bit of a grind either way. I just like some more diversity in the grind.

I'll give TA a decent try out. I expect that, as with F&I, there will be a bit of a learning curve at first but that it will become fairly cut and dried after a month.

I'll probably still concentrate on the regular rampages though since I can use a variety of characters with them to get the tokens I'll need for one character.

I wonder if they can do something that will draw people back to Therakiel's Temple? I can never find people to do that one.

emperornf wrote: »

except with SCR/GCR that just means people will use their farmer characters to get gear for the others instead of using the actual characters that want the gear.

crypticbuxom · February 2016

The 5 for 1 Mechanon to Silver Rec was always bad. Please change it to 1 for 1.

squirrelloid · February 2016

chaelk said:

except with SCR/GCR that just means people will use their farmer characters to get gear for the others instead of using the actual characters that want the gear.

Oh noes, someone being allowed to use the character they want to play the game, and then use the rewards they get for the character they want to be rewarded. In a game that historically has encouraged alting. The horrors.

spinnytop · February 2016

I'd be okay with communal recognition.

emperornf · February 2016

With the problem affecting mostly people with many alts, sharing rec across the account would indeed help a lot.
The more alts you have (ergo, the more alts you want to gear), the more rec you could get (by doing dailies across many toons).

spinnytop · February 2016

I think the concern on the dev side may be that communal currency would make people feel like they have to make a lot of alts. See me, I'd be fine with it... but I would be reaping the benefits, so I'm clearly biased.

squirrelloid · February 2016

spinnytop said:
I think the concern on the dev side may be that communal currency would make people feel like they have to make a lot of alts. See me, I'd be fine with it... but I would be reaping the benefits, so I'm clearly biased.

Which encourages subbing and buying character slots... without being a blatant money grab/marketing ploy... i don't see the problem...

(Having lots of alts also means you need more communal currency when it translates into gear like primaries and devices).

biffsmackwell · February 2016

spinnytop said:
I think the concern on the dev side may be that communal currency would make people feel like they have to make a lot of alts. See me, I'd be fine with it... but I would be reaping the benefits, so I'm clearly biased.

Increasing benefits for people who spend a long time playing the game? How absurd! Okay, no, not really, it's kind of like Veteran Rewards except you'd actually have to play the game to earn them.

The concern in the developer side should be that they want to incentivize their long-time, faithful players.

riverocean · February 2016

emperornf wrote: »

With the problem affecting mostly people with many alts, sharing rec across the account would indeed help a lot.
The more alts you have (ergo, the more alts you want to gear), the more rec you could get (by doing dailies across many toons).

That would be amazing. I never understood why we can't share our recognition across one account. It doesn't make sense, we already can do so with Drifter Salvage and Resources.

championshewolf · February 2016

biffsmackwell wrote: »

Increasing benefits for people who spend a long time playing the game? How absurd! Okay, no, not really, it's kind of like Veteran Rewards except you'd actually have to play the game to earn them.

The concern in the developer side should be that they want to incentivize their long-time, faithful players.

Actually it's a concern of people getting what they want for the character(s) that only matters to them too fast, and once they are done, they don't bother anymore and even leave. See everything else in this game.

mijjestic · February 2016

I've already suggested this in the PTS forums fairly early on in their patch progress, so count me as another recommending these changes. The other recogs are just grindfests if someone wanted to do that instead of/in addition to SCR dailies. A 5 to 1 or 10 to 1 ratio should be fine.

And exchanging between characters would be a nice indirect compromise to the price changes on SCR and a nod to the Alt Lovers so prevalent in this game. I myself have quite a few but play mainly 4 characters while the rest stagnate (two even still have pre On-Alert SS and power setups lol). But folks with 50 different characters who rotate between dozens...yeah I can see how this would happify them a bit after the disappointment of Heroic price changes.

chaelk · February 2016

squirrelloid wrote: »

except with SCR/GCR that just means people will use their farmer characters to get gear for the others instead of using the actual characters that want the gear.

Oh noes, someone being allowed to use the character they want to play the game, and then use the rewards they get for the character they want to be rewarded. In a game that historically has encouraged alting. The horrors.

yes, horrors. Like the BOP gear in the vendor.
Either change Gear to bind to acct or make the recognition Bind to acct, same as the Rampage tokens.

biffsmackwell · February 2016

championshewolf said:

Actually it's a concern of people getting what they want for the character(s) that only matters to them too fast, and once they are done, they don't bother anymore and even leave. See everything else in this game.

So because some people leave, the ones that stayed loyal and haven't left shouldn't be given any incentive to stay and play. Gotcha.

Edit: stupid quotes.

chaelk · February 2016

Like the person who did a post, I've been playing this game and I've beaten it.
He got to 40, got his Heroic gear in a week and left.

squirrelloid · February 2016

chaelk said:
Like the person who did a post, I've been playing this game and I've beaten it.

He got to 40, got his Heroic gear in a week and left.

Those aren't the kind of players we're ever going to keep. So they stick around 2 or 3 weeks instead, and then leave? Meh.

Anyone who comes in with the attitude that the goal is to 'beat' the game is never going to be a longterm player - we're never going to have enough content updates to keep them around.

thatcursedwolf · February 2016

championshewolf said:

biffsmackwell wrote: »

Increasing benefits for people who spend a long time playing the game? How absurd! Okay, no, not really, it's kind of like Veteran Rewards except you'd actually have to play the game to earn them.

The concern in the developer side should be that they want to incentivize their long-time, faithful players.

Actually it's a concern of people getting what they want for the character(s) that only matters to them too fast, and once they are done, they don't bother anymore and even leave. See everything else in this game.

What about the new ultragrind tiers? Don't they count? Or are these "people" considering heroic as being done and not the purpliest purple?

mijjestic · February 2016

Trying to nail down the aggregate primary reason players have left is chasing a boogeyman without doing some actual random selection polling of the absent. While it's fun to use as a straw man effigy to wave about in order to add weight and credence to one's theory on game design faux pas, literally every side of the argument can do this with enough twisting and inevitably it descends into the sides comparing how much higher their flaming straw is burning.

spinnytop · February 2016

biffsmackwell said:

Increasing benefits for people who spend a long time playing the game? How absurd!

People who spend a long time playing the game in that specific way. Not everyone who's been here for years like me has a massive list of characters totaling 8.

biffsmackwell said:

So because some people leave, the ones that stayed loyal and haven't left shouldn't be given any incentive to stay and play. Gotcha.

I mean, "people leaving" isn't the absolute end of what silver said, so I'm not sure why you focused on that. Being bored and feeling like there's nothing to do is the actual end of it... some people might leave, other people might just complain endlessly in zone and on the forums, and whatever else. The thing to avoid here is people being done too fast.

It's simply a fact that players do have to be managed in a way by game developers - as a game designer, you really do have to prevent players from negatively affecting their own play experience. Players will burn themselves out, and as the designer you have to set things to try to avoid that. You want players to have fun playing your game, that's what you do as a game designer you make an experience for people to enjoy. Players however don't have this job - generally, the player's job is to attack the game and beat it. Fact is, if you put a button that says "Get all rewards", quite a few people will push that button... then they'll scoff at how easy that was, and go do something else - and you can't expect them to do otherwise either, after all as the player their only duty is to win the game. As the person running the game then, you have to make sure there's no button like that... unfortunately, this game has had buttons like that all over the place, and now someone has the very unpopular job of ripping out those buttons.

In case folks haven't noticed, the theme right now is "putting to use what we already have that isn't being used". We have all sorts of gear that's just junk. We have all sorts of places that aren't worth going to. Basically we have a bunch of stuff that gets skipped, and the most sensible place to start is making it so that people have a reason to stop skipping it.

biffsmackwell · February 2016

spinnytop said:

biffsmackwell said:

Increasing benefits for people who spend a long time playing the game? How absurd!
People who spend a long time playing the game in that specific way. Not everyone who's been here for years like me has a massive list of characters totaling 8..

Well, yes. The game does encourage making alts, after all. What's one of the rewards for getting to level 40? New character slot. The game encouraged it, and that's the way I chose to play it. In many ways, the game rewards you for having multiple characters, like collecting currencies for new events and such. It's especially nice for people who don't get the chance to log in every day.

Regarding Heroic gear, the game did make it easier if you had multiple characters that could run UNITY. It's not like I'm making up points to argue, here. Heck, even Justice gear is easier to get if you have alts (unless I'm mistaken; I've been told you have a higher chance of getting a token if you haven't already got one that day).

And besides, for people who don't have a ton of characters, they're not going to need to grind out 30 sets of heroic gear, are they?

If this is not an isolated event, and this will be the trend moving forward, it's going to affect me quite a bit. Imagine if they put out a cool new costume set, but decide that they want people to spend more time in the game grinding for it, so they make it a per-character unlock. I'm sure you'd be like "no big, I don't have to grind that much." It's kinda discriminating to people who chose to play with many characters, something that the game fosters.

spinnytop said:

biffsmackwell said:

So because some people leave, the ones that stayed loyal and haven't left shouldn't be given any incentive to stay and play. Gotcha.
I mean, "people leaving" isn't the absolute end of what silver said, so I'm not sure why you focused on that. Being bored and feeling like there's nothing to do is the actual end of it... some people might leave, other people might just complain endlessly in zone and on the forums, and whatever else. The thing to avoid here is people being done too fast.

It's simply a fact that players do have to be managed in a way by game developers - as a game designer, you really do have to prevent players from negatively affecting their own play experience. Players will burn themselves out, and as the designer you have to set things to try to avoid that. You want players to have fun playing your game, that's what you do as a game designer you make an experience for people to enjoy. Players however don't have this job - generally, the player's job is to attack the game and beat it. Fact is, if you put a button that says "Get all rewards", quite a few people will push that button... then they'll scoff at how easy that was, and go do something else - and you can't expect them to do otherwise either, after all as the player their only duty is to win the game. As the person running the game then, you have to make sure there's no button like that... unfortunately, this game has had buttons like that all over the place, and now someone has the very unpopular job of ripping out those buttons.

In case folks haven't noticed, the theme right now is "putting to use what we already have that isn't being used". We have all sorts of gear that's just junk. We have all sorts of places that aren't worth going to. Basically we have a bunch of stuff that gets skipped, and the most sensible place to start is making it so that people have a reason to stop skipping it.

I "focused" on that because that was the point of her statement, the result of what happens when people get stuff too quickly.

Also, who marks Heroic gear as the point where "there's nothing else to do"? That's basically the point where all the level 40 stuff starts, so that's a flawed argument anyway.

You talking about the developers pacing people so they don't burn out... in FAVOR of them adding a grind?? Please, reconsider your argument. I just cannot take this seriously.

I'm all in favor of them doing stuff to get players to "stop skipping [the content we already have]" but this change, all it does is make it take longer to get there, since this gear is what's basically required in order to run the re-packaged stuff.

Unknown · February 2016

This content has been removed.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

bluegrassbeast said:
Nonsensical, ill-advised contrarianism in favor of things that are blatantly bad for the game? Surely not from Spin!

It's not as if they do it on a regular, then act like a hyprocrit and deny it :P

mijjestic · February 2016

While there are certainly those who burn out after leveling to max or obtaining certain levels of power, there are also certainly those who burn out from grinding past their palate without their barometer for appropriate reward for the time spent. A barometer that varies, granted, but hence these sorts of threads.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

This thread has given me an idea for a signature

, where do I go to add one?

roughbearmattach · February 2016

Deleted

jonsills · February 2016

You want to know what's going to make me bored with this game and go away? If all new content is gated behind requirements like this new lair, and then the prerequisites for those requirements are raised to the point I've got to grind the same mission or two over and over and over and over and OVER just to get one of the multiple items required.

And Spinny, right there is the difference between alting and grinding. When I start a new alt, I don't have to play through, say, the Kevin Poe mission in Westside seventeen dozen times before I can proceed (heck, on Space Cowboy, I didn't play that mission at all - got an XP boost from another toon, so I leveled past it, and that's not the first time I've done that sort of thing). But I stopped doing anything on Happifun Security System X-4 because the only thing available to it was UNITY - the same, what, five UNITY missions every day? That is a boring grind. Oh, but now there's a new lair to visit! Except that in order to be allowed to go into it with anything like what the devs regard as "par" gear, I've got to grind those UNITY missions a whole LOT now...

I mean, heckfire, if I wanted to only play Alerts, I'd be only playing Alerts, ya know?

thistleswift1 · February 2016

Want people to not skip the stuff already in the game? How about rewarding some scr/recog/whatever for doing actual story missions. Wouldn't have to be a lot, but even 1 or 2 for turning in a quest would certainly encourage people to get out and do some story stuff. Maybe a bit of a reward for getting perks instead of just perk points that sit and collect dust. *Shrug* Just an idea off the top of my head. I am not one for a senseless grind. I get that feeling enough by going to work all week.

themightyzenith · February 2016

thistleswift1 said:
Want people to not skip the stuff already in the game? How about rewarding some scr/recog/whatever for doing actual story missions. Wouldn't have to be a lot, but even 1 or 2 for turning in a quest would certainly encourage people to get out and do some story stuff. Maybe a bit of a reward for getting perks instead of just perk points that sit and collect dust. *Shrug* Just an idea off the top of my head. I am not one for a senseless grind. I get that feeling enough by going to work all week.

Well said.

holloweaver · February 2016

thistleswift1 said:
Want people to not skip the stuff already in the game? How about rewarding some scr/recog/whatever for doing actual story missions. Wouldn't have to be a lot, but even 1 or 2 for turning in a quest would certainly encourage people to get out and do some story stuff. Maybe a bit of a reward for getting perks instead of just perk points that sit and collect dust. *Shrug* Just an idea off the top of my head. I am not one for a senseless grind. I get that feeling enough by going to work all week.

Too late, they already chose the exact opposite way : lower rewards, higher pricings (the word is inflation) and currency rewards moved into Alerts.

jaazaniah1 · February 2016

It would be nice to get SCR for completing regular missions rated lvl 35+. That would make them the equivalent of Unity 1 and 2.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

jaazaniah1 said:
It would be nice to get SCR for completing regular missions rated lvl 35+. That would make them the equivalent of Unity 1 and 2.

^
There ya go folks, easy-peasy, and of all things, promotion of diverse content!

mijjestic · February 2016

That would not be consistent with their deliberate goal of forcing team content.

wraithshadow13 · February 2016

this game is entirely too dead for the prices they're charging. Not that it's a completely dead game, people are obviously playing, but still. The cash shop prices are insane for a game with this many issues, and such a dwindling population. The new grind prices are also a bit high, especially when some of the "endgame content" is only for a chance at the reward instead of actually getting the reward for finishing (rampages).

I really don't think the devs are playing if these are the prices they're giving us to work with.

I fully support the idea of being able to trade up on the currencies though, as long as they don't make that too high of a rate. I also fully support the idea of making more currencies account bound and storable in the account banks.

spinnytop · February 2016

biffsmackwell said:
It's kinda discriminating to people who chose to play with many characters, something that the game fosters.

That's one way to look at it sure, but you also have to consider that your total amount of Recog that you can farm up doesn't actually change just because it's per character.

The math:

I have 100 characters. I have time-bending powers and can play each of them a bunch of hours every day. Let's say I can farm 30 SCR per character.

SCR per character: I can farm 3000 SCR in a day.
Communal SCR: I can farm 3000 SCR in a day.

See? You're not getting less, it's just bound per character. Here's another interesting concept to consider.

If you choose to farm on 1 character, then after X days you will receive item Y. If you choose to farm on 10 characters, then after X days you will receive item Y * 10. Interesting right? In the long-run, you're still reaping the benefits of having multiple characters. What benefit does the guy with 1 character get for his chosen play-style? Well, none really. Sure, you could argue that, given enough ways to farm SCR, his benefit would be that he can get things faster because his SCR would all be grouped on one character. However, the wonderful thing is that you, the guy with lots of characters, can also easily reap this benefit. So, people with multiple characters still have access to both benefits - looks like the game still favors you after all

See, this is less about "punishing people with a lot of alts" and more about making sure that people who don't have a lot of alts feel like they're suddenly being forced to make more characters.

I also find it interesting that you point out that there are other situations where you get a benefit from having multiple characters, and then use that to say that this is somehow unfair.

biffsmackwell said:

I'm all in favor of them doing stuff to get players to "stop skipping [the content we already have]" but this change, all it does is make it take longer to get there, since this gear is what's basically required in order to run the re-packaged stuff.

Mmmmmm, I don't know about that Biff. I don't think you need Heroic Gear to run stuff like Nemcon, Andrithal, and bronze king. You don't need it to run Rampages either. If we want to get absolutely technical and mathematically sober, you don't need it to run TA either. I mean let's be honest here, this is not a "you need this gear to run that tier" kind of game. This is a "how hard can you outgear the content" game. We're not trying to reach the minimum iLvl to access content... we're seeing how far above it we can get. That being the case, it made sense to extend that process a bit.

jonsills said:

And Spinny, right there is the difference between alting and grinding. When I start a new alt, I don't have to play through, say, the Kevin Poe mission in Westside seventeen dozen times before I can proceed (heck, on Space Cowboy, I didn't play that mission at all - got an XP boost from another toon, so I leveled past it, and that's not the first time I've done that sort of thing). But I stopped doing anything on Happifun Security System X-4 because the only thing available to it was UNITY - the same, what, five UNITY missions every day? That is a boring grind. Oh, but now there's a new lair to visit! Except that in order to be allowed to go into it with anything like what the devs regard as "par" gear, I've got to grind those UNITY missions a whole LOT now...

I've got some good news for ya Jon. You're wrong! Great news isn't it? There are more sources for SCR than Unity, and they seem to be a whole lot better too.

Also, all that stuff you talked about with having to do Kevin Poe over and over? That's not happening, so relax.

Also, psst, don't tell anyone, but the lair doesn't actually kick you out if you don't have Heroic Gear( I "accidentally" ran the lair in my character that is still in blue primaries. Oops! Tee hee! ). If you wanna run it, just send me a PM in game and ask, I'll happily take you along! I promise nobody is going to care what gear you're wearing; the only thing we'll care about is if you can do a few mechanics ^_^ ( Don't worry, I know you couldn't actually bring yourself to do that. If it helps you can throw a bunch of insults at me while asking? )

biffsmackwell · February 2016

spinnytop said:

biffsmackwell said:
It's kinda discriminating to people who chose to play with many characters, something that the game fosters.
That's one way to look at it sure, but you also have to consider that your total amount of Recog that you can farm up doesn't actually change just because it's per character.

The math:

I have 100 characters. I have time-bending powers and can play each of them a bunch of hours every day. Let's say I can farm 30 SCR per character.

SCR per character: I can farm 3000 SCR in a day.
Communal SCR: I can farm 3000 SCR in a day.

See? You're not getting less, it's just bound per character. Here's another interesting concept to consider.

If you choose to farm on 1 character, then after X days you will receive item Y. If you choose to farm on 10 characters, then after X days you will receive item Y * 10. Interesting right? In the long-run, you're still reaping the benefits of having multiple characters. What benefit does the guy with 1 character get for his chosen play-style? Well, none really. Sure, you could argue that, given enough ways to farm SCR, his benefit would be that he can get things faster because his SCR would all be grouped on one character. However, the wonderful thing is that you, the guy with lots of characters, can also easily reap this benefit. So, people with multiple characters still have access to both benefits - looks like the game still favors you after all

See, this is less about "punishing people with a lot of alts" and more about making sure that people who don't have a lot of alts feel like they're suddenly being forced to make more characters.

I also find it interesting that you point out that there are other situations where you get a benefit from having multiple characters, and then use that to say that this is somehow unfair.

Haha okay, first off I will admit that using multiple characters to farm Heroic gear is still a valid thing, because the gear is not Bind on Pickup. Yes, you can use still multiple characters to farm the required Silver Champions Recognition. But we're moving the goalposts here quite a bit, aren't we? First, your argument against mine is that "sure, this only rewards players that chose to play that certain way." Now, that argument doesn't fully meet your end goal, so you switch to "sure, more of your characters can still get the Recognition!"

Unfortunately, your "this character can farm this many SCR, and so can this one" argument doesn't address how long it takes to farm that stuff. At the end of the day, they did make the currency less attainable and at the same time, worth less. Yes, I can spend 30 hours grinding out enough Recognition over 10 characters and get the same amount of gear as before, but the major difference here is that it used to take me a small fraction of that time to get it. Per-alt, I still have diminished returns on my time spent. Can I still use three characters to get my three pieces of gear for just a few hours over two nights? Make a super-badass youtube video of you doing that and I'll sing your praises!

But no, this is about as effective as your delusional argument that elongating a grind is beneficial for preventing player burnout. Yeah, totally, we all know that doing the same thing over and over for an extended period of time has never caused burnout.

You should take this act to BlizzCon, man.

It almost doesn't matter that the currency is bound per character because I don't have 20 hours in one day to rack up all the currency I can attain, and on top of that, even if I did, it still delays the process, because yeah I can dig up 10 new sets of gear over all my alts, but if I use the quickest ways of getting that gear over several characters, and they're earning like 5 per day, that still takes me 30 days to gear up my latest character. Sure, a few others get geared up too, but it still took that long.

In short: Sorry, no, you can't just take time out of the equation of getting gear when multiple alts used to save you time.

spinnytop said:

biffsmackwell said:

I'm all in favor of them doing stuff to get players to "stop skipping [the content we already have]" but this change, all it does is make it take longer to get there, since this gear is what's basically required in order to run the re-packaged stuff.
Mmmmmm, I don't know about that Biff. I don't think you need Heroic Gear to run stuff like Nemcon, Andrithal, and bronze king. You don't need it to run Rampages either. If we want to get absolutely technical and mathematically sober, you don't need it to run TA either. I mean let's be honest here, this is not a "you need this gear to run that tier" kind of game. This is a "how hard can you outgear the content" game. We're not trying to reach the minimum iLvl to access content... we're seeing how far above it we can get. That being the case, it made sense to extend that process a bit.

The developers themselves said that Heroic gear is what you'll want to be wearing, minimum, for running this content. Has Nemesis Confrontation, Andrithal, and Bronze King been repackaged? Because, try to focus, the repackaged stuff is what we're talking about. You may not need it if you run with a bunch of people who can solo it, or you got a lucky streak with 20 runs that nobody so much as lost half their health, but the fact is that this content was designed for players that met a minimum requirement of gear, and that gear is Heroic. Your anecdotal "I ran it a million times with PuGs and we beat it every single time, in record time" BS be damned.

And man, you get your jimmies ruffled when I talk about people leaving when that was part of someone's post, but when I mention that the newly repackaged Telios lair, the one that's been stated by the developers to "require" Heroic+ gear, you start trying to tell me that it's not required for Nemesis Confrontation, Andrithal, and Bronze King??

I'd be befuddled if I didn't already know what kind of cards you're playing with, dude.

kemmicals · February 2016

Call me when we're done trying to 1-up each other.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

biffsmackwell said:

spinnytop said:

biffsmackwell said:
It's kinda discriminating to people who chose to play with many characters, something that the game fosters.
That's one way to look at it sure, but you also have to consider that your total amount of Recog that you can farm up doesn't actually change just because it's per character.

The math:

I have 100 characters. I have time-bending powers and can play each of them a bunch of hours every day. Let's say I can farm 30 SCR per character.

SCR per character: I can farm 3000 SCR in a day.
Communal SCR: I can farm 3000 SCR in a day.

See? You're not getting less, it's just bound per character. Here's another interesting concept to consider.

If you choose to farm on 1 character, then after X days you will receive item Y. If you choose to farm on 10 characters, then after X days you will receive item Y * 10. Interesting right? In the long-run, you're still reaping the benefits of having multiple characters. What benefit does the guy with 1 character get for his chosen play-style? Well, none really. Sure, you could argue that, given enough ways to farm SCR, his benefit would be that he can get things faster because his SCR would all be grouped on one character. However, the wonderful thing is that you, the guy with lots of characters, can also easily reap this benefit. So, people with multiple characters still have access to both benefits - looks like the game still favors you after all

See, this is less about "punishing people with a lot of alts" and more about making sure that people who don't have a lot of alts feel like they're suddenly being forced to make more characters.

I also find it interesting that you point out that there are other situations where you get a benefit from having multiple characters, and then use that to say that this is somehow unfair.

Haha okay, first off I will admit that using multiple characters to farm Heroic gear is still a valid thing, because the gear is not Bind on Pickup. Yes, you can use still multiple characters to farm the required Silver Champions Recognition. But we're moving the goalposts here quite a bit, aren't we? First, your argument against mine is that "sure, this only rewards players that chose to play that certain way." Now, that argument doesn't fully meet your end goal, so you switch to "sure, more of your characters can still get the Recognition!"

Unfortunately, your "this character can farm this many SCR, and so can this one" argument doesn't address how long it takes to farm that stuff. At the end of the day, they did make the currency less attainable and at the same time, worth less. Yes, I can spend 30 hours grinding out enough Recognition over 10 characters and get the same amount of gear as before, but the major difference here is that it used to take me a small fraction of that time to get it. Per-alt, I still have diminished returns on my time spent. Can I still use three characters to get my three pieces of gear for just a few hours over two nights? Make a super-badass youtube video of you doing that and I'll sing your praises!

But no, this is about as effective as your delusional argument that elongating a grind is beneficial for preventing player burnout. Yeah, totally, we all know that doing the same thing over and over for an extended period of time has never caused burnout.

You should take this act to BlizzCon, man.

It almost doesn't matter that the currency is bound per character because I don't have 20 hours in one day to rack up all the currency I can attain, and on top of that, even if I did, it still delays the process, because yeah I can dig up 10 new sets of gear over all my alts, but if I use the quickest ways of getting that gear over several characters, and they're earning like 5 per day, that still takes me 30 days to gear up my latest character. Sure, a few others get geared up too, but it still took that long.

In short: Sorry, no, you can't just take time out of the equation of getting gear when multiple alts used to save you time.

spinnytop said:

biffsmackwell said:

I'm all in favor of them doing stuff to get players to "stop skipping [the content we already have]" but this change, all it does is make it take longer to get there, since this gear is what's basically required in order to run the re-packaged stuff.
Mmmmmm, I don't know about that Biff. I don't think you need Heroic Gear to run stuff like Nemcon, Andrithal, and bronze king. You don't need it to run Rampages either. If we want to get absolutely technical and mathematically sober, you don't need it to run TA either. I mean let's be honest here, this is not a "you need this gear to run that tier" kind of game. This is a "how hard can you outgear the content" game. We're not trying to reach the minimum iLvl to access content... we're seeing how far above it we can get. That being the case, it made sense to extend that process a bit.

The developers themselves said that Heroic gear is what you'll want to be wearing, minimum, for running this content. Has Nemesis Confrontation, Andrithal, and Bronze King been repackaged? Because, try to focus, the repackaged stuff is what we're talking about. You may not need it if you run with a bunch of people who can solo it, or you got a lucky streak with 20 runs that nobody so much as lost half their health, but the fact is that this content was designed for players that met a minimum requirement of gear, and that gear is Heroic. Your anecdotal "I ran it a million times with PuGs and we beat it every single time, in record time" BS be damned.

And man, you get your jimmies ruffled when I talk about people leaving when that was part of someone's post, but when I mention that the newly repackaged Telios lair, the one that's been stated by the developers to "require" Heroic+ gear, you start trying to tell me that it's not required for Nemesis Confrontation, Andrithal, and Bronze King??

I'd be befuddled if I didn't already know what kind of cards you're playing with, dude.

Exactly, and also, spinny, didn't you say you don't make alts as often? So, no offense but what does your opinion matter in this subject of debate? Seriously, just please go bother someone else, thank you!

jonsills · February 2016

Yeah, Spinny, it's cool that you have no real responsibilities and can freely spend thirty hours a week playing a game. That's great for you, it really is.

But some of us have families. Some of us have real flesh-and-blood people who need us to take our heads away from the screen every so often. Some of us play this game to relax, not because we need an unpaid job.

And news flash - not everyone likes "Dark Souls", either.

xcelsior41 · February 2016

jonsills said:
Yeah, Spinny, it's cool that you have no real responsibilities and can freely spend thirty hours a week playing a game. That's great for you, it really is.

But some of us have families. Some of us have real flesh-and-blood people who need us to take our heads away from the screen every so often. Some of us play this game to relax, not because we need an unpaid job.

And news flash - not everyone likes "Dark Souls", either.

Don't forget those in college!

magpieuk2014 · February 2016

I'm not sure the argument against players having farmer toons to the benefit of their alts holds weight. After all... the most effective way to do that is to be a subscriber; 500Z a month buys an awful lot of questionite and I've been happily equipping my alts that way for some time. Ditto lockboxes; I've got about 30 Merc Gear boxes in storage and a fair few Legion ones too, all coming from boxes opened with that stipend. And I can tell you I'd play the game a lot less if I couldn't do that; grinding it out like a Silver account newbie every time would get old very, very, quickly indeed. Perhaps that is the ultimate aim of these changes - to make equipping your characters with in-game currencies so tedious that you go for a quick fix at the Z store instead. If that is the case, then there are better ways to do it (like making it a whole lot easier to buy Zen....)

beezeeze · February 2016

For as many of you there are who seem to like and play this game a lot you sure seem loath to actually go out and do the content provided. You know, AP, Dailies, Unity Missions...that sort of stuff. Oh no it takes longer now... better just give up!

chaelk · February 2016

sorry can't chat now, busy doing missions

magpieuk2014 · February 2016

beezeeze said:
For as many of you there are who seem to like and play this game a lot you sure seem loath to actually go out and do the content provided. You know, AP, Dailies, Unity Missions...that sort of stuff. Oh no it takes longer now... better just give up!

Not at all. I'm still merrily going about my quest to have played all of it, including all the Lairs, epic or otherwise. But there are life limits on this, and other games to play, and a point at which these things try to take up so much of your life that you need to start looking for rehab and a support group rather than an SG.

beezeeze · February 2016

You don't have to play any more than usual though... nobody is forcing that, it'll just take longer to reach your goal if you want to get heroics or whathaveyou. If you're one of those altheads who's just looking to reach the end so you can start up a new alt then skip the grind if you don't want to do it and make another alt.

Regarding the new currencies pricing and revamp.

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