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Four-Legged Heroes.

a1fightera1fighter Posts: 365 Arc User
edited November 2015 in Champions Online Discussion
Sup

Not sure this has been discussed before, but anyway, I was on the City of Titans official page (excited about the game btw), and there was an interesting discussion there. The developers were discussing travel powers and movement modes. Later in the thread, we started to talk about the possibility of a quadrupedal hero stance, as an alternate to the typical two legged form. The developers brought up a centaur, but yea, something like that.

Now, I am not saying CO will do it. If a MMO were to do this, animation sets must be made for each groups; the humans and animals.

What do you guys/gals think? Ever wanted to play as a true quadrupedal as opposed to the hunchback beast stance? Think it would be cool to have a quadrupedal or two legger option from the character creation screen? Imo, this would be sweet to see some heroes resembling Mega-Terak running around.

Also, a limb option would be pretty neat, four legs, four arms, etc.

Obviously it would require a ton of work, Thoughts on quadrupedal heroes?



Post edited by a1fighter on
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Comments

  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    If it were a fantasy game where such things were normal, I'd still be on the maybe side. This game is about superheroes and while I'm sure you could give me an example of a handful of four-legged superheroes, it's just way too niche in my opinion, and wouldn't really have a place here.
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  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Posts: 522 Arc User
    The amount of animation work required to make every power available to even one more body type (like 4 arms instead of 2) is currently way out of scope for their budget. It was out of budget during beta and post-launch as well.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    I agree with Biff. In a fantasy MMO which has centaurs as a playable race okay, but it's not needed in CO and I would hate to see resources used in this way.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    Mega-Terak doesn't walk on four legs though.​​
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  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Posts: 522 Arc User
    a1fighter said:

    an all four movement mode.

    If all you're looking for is a quadroped style movement mode, use the bestial stance with Acrobatics.

    However much you may wish, you're not getting a different skeleton (2 arms + 2 legs) unless you're ready to dump a couple million dollars on Cryptic with it as a requirement. Animation is not cheap and every single power animation has to be redone for a new skeleton (4 arms + 2 legs, 4 legs or 2 arms + 4 legs). Not to mention the amount of costume work that would go into this, unless you're happy with non-textured models with no options.

    It is feasible to do something like an attack dog or Grondling as npc or transform device, because then you can limit the amount of work required. Then you have a walking animation, a running animation, a jump animation, 3-4 attack animations, 2-3 hit reaction animations and an idle animation or two (ignoring any emotes). You're also limited to a few static skins to worry about.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    a1fighter said:

    If it were a fantasy game where such things were normal, I'd still be on the maybe side. This game is about superheroes and while I'm sure you could give me an example of a handful of four-legged superheroes, it's just way too niche in my opinion, and wouldn't really have a place here.

    Regardless if there are a handful, they are there, which is my point.

    Technically speaking, werewolves, magic, fantasy armor/weapon pack, an all four movement mode....the fantasy is already present in CO. CO is an MMO, hard to escape the fantasy realm, DCUO has its' fair share of elemental powers.

    My thing is this, what is the difference between being a character running on all-fours, as opposed to one standing on all fours? Superman and Defender do not run on all fours, i can only think of a handful of characters whom probably do, but nonetheless, it is in CO.

    What exactly is a fantasy character? Weather wizard, dark magician, grimoire, werewolves, and knights? Are they all not mentioned in-game? Can our imaginations not allow us to create those types of characters? Beast boy's power are essentially a fantasy shapeshifter, which is in DCUO. Comics have tons of fantasy elements, sorcerers, etc.

    Again, not saying they would do this, so no need to discuss budget etc.

    I respect and appreciate the feedback, but do not see fantasy as a viable argument, when there are wizards and sorcery in CO, DC and Marvel. MMOs as-well as comics are the fantasy realm. Can't think of a comic universe which does not have major elements of fantasy, wizards, magic, and whatnot.

    Also, didn't SE collab with DC for action figures? The only difference between FF and DC are one group occasionally fights dragons, but both battle animals, and humanoids.
    Let me put it this way. Let's pretend you had an MMO that was all swords and sorcery. No guns in sight anywhere because they haven't been invented yet or whatever. Someone says "You know what this game needs? Guns! I know it's a fantasy game, but I've seen guns in fantasy games before. And not only guns, but like steam tanks and steam-powered robots and rideable steam-dragons! How cool would that be?!"

    It's a very niche thing. It's most likely that people who are playing this fantasy game are a fan of fantasy games that don't have guns in them, and that's why they play it, and not World of Warcraft or whatever else. If it's a niche thing, then you'd be asking for developers to spend time on something that not a lot of people would use, something that's strange to the setting and just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    And like I said, yes, I know you can find centaurs in comics. But for every centaur you can name in a comic, I can name a few dozen superheroes that aren't centaurs or beastly in any way. I've never picked up a comic book and opened it up to see a great and varied selection of centaurs flying around with various superpowers. I also haven't seen any superhero shows or movies where centaurs were part of the main cast (I actually don't think I've seen any superhero show or movie where this was the case). In the Awesomes there's a centaur named Centaur, but he's hardly main cast, and that's probably because centaurs are not central or even in a middle area of superhero comics. They're so fringe that most people that make comics never even have the first thought of putting a centaur in a superhero setting.

    Simply running on all fours, yes we already have that. Creating new bodies so that you can run around like a centaur or a wemic or whatever you want is just silly in a game where most people would probably want more superhero stuff.

    I wouldn't say that fantasy is a major part of most comics universes. They're a part, sure, but most of what I've seen is not fantasy. And if you're going to go there, why even stop at centaurs? Let's have spider bodies, snake bodies so we can make naga, scorpion bodies, bear bodies, and slug bodies? I'm sure we've all seen them in comics, right? That's not the kind of thing I want to see when I log into the game.

    Personally, I think the game already has gone too far into fantasy stuff, whether it be costumes, body parts, and content. This is just something that's completely off my radar.

    a1fighter said:

    an all four movement mode.

    If all you're looking for is a quadroped style movement mode, use the bestial stance with Acrobatics.

    However much you may wish, you're not getting a different skeleton (2 arms + 2 legs) unless you're ready to dump a couple million dollars on Cryptic with it as a requirement. Animation is not cheap and every single power animation has to be redone for a new skeleton (4 arms + 2 legs, 4 legs or 2 arms + 4 legs). Not to mention the amount of costume work that would go into this, unless you're happy with non-textured models with no options.

    It is feasible to do something like an attack dog or Grondling as npc or transform device, because then you can limit the amount of work required. Then you have a walking animation, a running animation, a jump animation, 3-4 attack animations, 2-3 hit reaction animations and an idle animation or two (ignoring any emotes). You're also limited to a few static skins to worry about.
    Actually for adding a four-legged bottom half, you wouldn't have to do much of anything for powers that in and of themselves don't require feet. Upper torso animations are separate from the bottom half animations. For example, the animation Two-Gun Mojo uses can be used on a character regardless of whether he is standing still, strafing, moving forward, moving backward, or flying. They're independent of each other. Only attack animations that use the legs, like any of the kick moves, maybe lunges (since they're a full-body animation) would need work.

    Four-armed torso is another story. Why you could just have the two extra arms be in a kinda actiony-idle position and call it a day, it wouldn't look as impressive as if they were to actually take part in the power animation.
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  • kaosarcannakaosarcanna Posts: 124 Arc User
    I'm all about options for my gameplay, and I don't really think there's a lot that's out of bounds for a super hero game. After all, you can have a heroic vampire, werewolf, demon, robot, sorcerer, dinosaur .... pretty much anything and everything has been envisioned as a super hero including Comet the Super Horse. (And an obscure 40s super hero called Speed Centaur).



    While I can't think of a specific character I'd want to play that has four legs, I admit that I would love to have a four armed model so I could play a heroic grondling character. :D
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,061 Arc User
    For reference, nonhumans in CO cannot use most emotes -- for example, Grond cannot dance. Sure, it might be nice to have other models, but it's a ridiculous amount of work.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    a1fighter said:

    Biffsmackwell, that still does not make sense, because CO already has a mix of fantasy and SCI-fi elements. Now, if this were Elder Scrolls, with no gun choices, nor air-ships, then point taken. However, in CO, we have wizards, giant apes, werewolves, vampires, dinosaurs, dragon things, swords and sorcery, guns, futuristic vehicles, etc. CO does not have a "niche" as it pertains to customization.

    As it pertains to CO going too far, DCUO has sword and sorcery elements as-well. Circe uses magic, while Wonder Woman appears to be a fantasy sword wielderith some tech, but Bat-Man is futuristic/sci-fi with his gadgets.

    Also, what about Thor? Dr. Strange? You cannot escape fantasy elements in comics

    I'm not sure why you keep repeating the same thing. I already said I know there's fantasy elements in comics, and that that stuff is in Champions already, but even in comics it's a small part of the whole. Again, for every hero that's rooted in some kind of fantasy, I can name a dozen that aren't. It's a small slice of the pie, and centaurs are an even smaller slice of that slice.

    You asked what our opinions are, and I'm giving you mine. Not even counting the work involved, I would say no to this because it just doesn't fit the setting and is not a big enough part of comics or Champions to be considered an option for the main player characters. It's silly to me.

    I've seen people do some neat things with the character creator. I've seen a snake with mechanical arms and legs that let it move around like your average bipedal creature. That's neat, it's a fun idea, I'm glad that dude thought of it and I see nothing wrong with it. However, there's a reason why most superheroes you see in this game are not snakes with mechanical arms and legs. A lot of people who play Champions are into superheroes, and the majority of superheroes are not snakes with mechanical arms and legs. To make a specific snake body that looks more like a snake and less like a human that moves differently and comes with special arms and legs that can only be used with that snake body would just be ridiculous to me. It's such a small group of people who want to play snakes with mechanical arms and legs that, while possible to already make, I've only seen it in the game once or twice in the six years I've been playing.

    I'm not saying that snakes with mechanical arms and legs shouldn't be made, I'm not trying to deny their existence; I accept that they exist, just like Thor and Doctor Strange, but to create special body parts for these creatures that have no relevance in this particular game is as silly to me as designing a commercial airliner as a means of travel for a fantasy game because "means of winged flight exist in that setting," or "I once saw a fantasy game where someone had traveled back in time in a commercial airliner so we should have it in this game."
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited November 2015
    a1fighter said:

    Well, i keepstating the same thinover because what you are saying is false.

    "but even in comics it's a small part of the whole"

    Why is there a section dedicated to magic users in the DC Comics database then?

    I'm saying fantasy is a small part of superhero comic books. That means I acknowledge that it's PART of it, but it really doesn't seem like it's a LARGE part of it. There's a section dedicated to magic users in the DC Comics database because they're a PART of the larger WHOLE.

    Is this the DC Comics database you're talking about? http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Database

    On the front page they show a bunch of superheroes. Out of 24 heroes, it looks like maybe two of them are based on some kind of fantasy. Two is a small part of 24. It's definitely not a large part, we can agree on that, right?

    Let's look further. Characters by origin: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Characters_by_Origin

    One of the categories is Divine Empowerment. Let's just say for the sake of simplicity that everything within this category is considered "fantasy". There's twenty pages of fantasy characters. That's a lot!

    Let's look at the other categories.
    Aliens: 46 pages.
    Elementals: 1 page.
    Clones: 8 pages.
    Robots: 13 pages.
    Empowered by Equipment: 33 pages.
    Cyborgs: 14 pages.
    Gestalt Characters: 4 pages.
    Exposure to Chemicals or Radiation: 5 pages.
    Accidents of Science: 3 pages.
    Scientific Experimentation: 7 pages.
    Mutates: 1 page.

    Now, this isn't an exact science and I don't know how much overlap there is on these characters or even how complete this list is (I'd imagine not very), but there's 20 pages of "fantasy style" heroes as opposed to 135 pages of other types of heroes. Do you see why I say that it's a small part now, or are you going to keep coming back with "that's false because fantasy heroes exist"?
    a1fighter said:

    Again, not saying CO will add it, but the line is already crossed with a beast running stance on all fours. So budget aside, we all know CO is going through tough times; what is the difference between running on all fours, as opposed to standing on all fours? Do lions stand hunched over on two feet, but run on all fours?

    I didn't know there was an overabundance of lion superheroes in comics. I googled "lion supherhero" and I see bipedal forms with lion motifs. I didn't see any lions running around on all fours with a mask, cape, and tights.

    The difference is: animals are not usually superheroes. Yes, I understand some do exist, like superdog or whatever. It seems to me that you seem to not be understanding the difference between "small part" and "large part." You seem to think that if it's been done once in comics, it's a large part of comics and it should be the norm.

    The beast stance is meant for bipedal superheroes that have animal qualities to them. We don't have a lion standing stance in the game because lions are not superheroes, and the game is obviously not about lions with superpowers. Even if there was a lion or two with superpowers in the game, again it would be such a niche thing to have that it's not worth doing.
    a1fighter said:

    Also "but to create special body parts for these creatures that have no relevance in this particular game is as silly to me"

    Yo....Monster Island? Mechanical beast head? Beastly body parts? Werewolves? Vampires, Shark people in resistance? Just to name a few.....how is that not a sizable part of CO? There are animals, mutants, etc located throughout CO, and some play as these things. Implying that they hold no relevance in this game is false.

    Monster island: Those are animals that were made as a result of science, and is part of the setting of the game. It's in the story, so it's completely fine to me to see those. Mechanical beast heads? Robots are part of the setting. Beast men, werewolves, vampires, again, all part of the established setting.

    Now, if you can show me that centaurs in particular are a big enough part of the Champions setting to justify having the option for centaur player characters, I'll probably reconsider my opinion.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    Cryptic saw fit to introduce costume additions like that huge flower helmet or the cartoon animal heads that hardly scream "superhero" to me. Whatever "niche" those visual styles belong to in superhero comics, I have absolutely no idea, so I don't find a superhero-themed quadrupedal character coming off as something of a poor fit in this game. The game already has a good mix of visual styles comparable to that of popular comic superhero mediums. I don't see why we can't have something new and wacky deviating from that being added in once in a while.

    With that being said, there's the problem of integrating present costume pieces into a new quadrupedal player model type. Maybe a limited number of costume pieces can easily fit like the shoulder ones, but for the rest it would be a headache unless a special version of those pieces are created just so they can fit onto the model without looking god-awful with all sorts of clipping ugliness. Sure, they could create costume sets specifically for a four-legged model, but that goes against the whole customization thing.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    edited November 2015
    a1fighter said:

    1.

    So, lets use your math, out of 155 pages, correct?

    13% of the content is dedicated to magic or fantasy.

    29 or 30% are Alien (46/156 pages).

    5% are clones

    8% are robots

    21% are empowered by equipment

    and so on.....

    math.about.com/library/weekly/aa061502a.htm

    So, Alien and equipment only lead fantasy, as it pertains to content in the database, I would say that is sizable.

    2.

    Wonder woman and her lasso seems pretty fantasy to me.

    Thor

    Circe

    Dr Strange

    Black Adam

    Shazam

    I could go on...come on now, lol, you know good and well some of the most popular heroes have heavy ties to fantasy.

    3.

    "Monster island: Those are animals that were made as a result of science, and is part of the setting of the game. It's in the story, so it's completely fine to me to see those. Mechanical beast heads? Robots are part of the setting. Beast men, werewolves, vampires, again, all part of the established setting."

    4.

    But you said that they were not relevant, connected to the game, so how can you write what you just did? Describing their ties to the game? They are animals, whom posse an animal stance, which is my entire argument. You stated, "but to create special body parts for these creatures that have no relevance in this particular game is as silly to me"

    5.

    Also, you don't need to see a Centaur, characters already run on all fours, hence why is standing on all fours so bogus? Which leads me to my lion reference, Lions are creatures whom walk on all fours, they also run on all fours. Lions do not walk on two legs, but run on all fours. They are all fours 24/7.

    6.

    My point is this, if characters already run on all fours, why is an all-four stance so bizarre?

    7.

    "The difference is: animals are not usually superheroes." Just animals that stand on two legs, with animals features. My ape and bear do quite well as heroes if i may so so myself ;)
    1: You consider less than 15% a "large part" of character backgrounds/origins? I guess this is why we can't see eye to eye. I consider 50%, maybe even 35, 40% a large part of something. Less than 15% is a small part. But gosh, thanks for educating me on what percentages are. I wish there was some snarky link I could put up for you that described what "small" and "large" means.

    2. I'm very happy that you can name half a dozen fantasy-based heroes, as if I hadn't already said that I know that these exist and that for each one you name, I can name a dozen non-fantasy-based heroes to prove that fantasy plays a smaller role in superhero comics. If you really need me to, I will, but these posts are getting long enough.

    3. Creating a hairy chest or cat head is not really in the same ballpark as creating entirely new bodies that behave completely different than most other enemies and ALL current players in the game.

    4. I said that CENTAURS WERE NOT RELEVANT TO THIS GAME OR SETTING. Those other things ARE because they're... PART OF THE SETTING. That's why I can write what I did, because I haven't ever heard of a centaur being in Champions and I've heard of plenty of manimals being in there.

    5. I re-read your post, and I saw that you did mention simply "standing on all fours." I take this to mean "standing on all fours for bipedal creatures." Following that up with talking about centaurs and the title of the thread being four-legged-heroes must have colored that wrong for me. I'm in no way against adding a stance to the game where it's a character crawling around on all fours, buuuut even then, it might look stupid for someone to be doing that all the time. Regardless, I'm not against this.

    6. Can you name a bipedal superhero that never stands up? I'm just wondering what the basis for this suggestion is.

    7. I'm sure your ape and bear look more like deformed humans than actual apes and bears.

    Cryptic saw fit to introduce costume additions like that huge flower helmet or the cartoon animal heads that hardly scream "superhero" to me. Whatever "niche" those visual styles belong to in superhero comics, I have absolutely no idea, so I don't find a superhero-themed quadrupedal character coming off as something of a poor fit in this game. The game already has a good mix of visual styles comparable to that of popular comic superhero mediums. I don't see why we can't have something new and wacky deviating from that being added in once in a while.

    With that being said, there's the problem of integrating present costume pieces into a new quadrupedal player model type. Maybe a limited number of costume pieces can easily fit like the shoulder ones, but for the rest it would be a headache unless a special version of those pieces are created just so they can fit onto the model without looking god-awful with all sorts of clipping ugliness. Sure, they could create costume sets specifically for a four-legged model, but that goes against the whole customization thing.

    Yeah, I don't think I've ever been shy about letting people know which costume sets I considered ill-conceived. In my opinion, Cryptic has definitely strayed off the tracks of what the superhero genre is, and when coming up with costume ideas they treat the game as more of a "Let's play dress-up with dolls" game than a "superhero" game, which, last time I checked, the former was never on any genre categories on Steam or whatever other retailer used to or still currently does sell the game. Even the Transformers costume set (let's not lie to ourselves, that's what it is), while I much prefer tech-based costumes to most other things, I think was a mistake because we're not fighting for Cybertron in this game. It was way off-key.

    I think "Well, we added a bunch of stuff that doesn't really fit the theme, so let's just keep on going completely off the rails," is not the answer. I think "Well, we added a bunch of stuff that doesn't really fit the theme, so let's focus on getting back to what the game is really supposed to be," is a much better Plan B.

    I get that the game is more than just superheroes to a lot of people, and that's great for them, but to all the people who expected this game to be more about superheroes than anything else, it's a big negative every time they go just a bit farther from what we expect.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited November 2015

    Yeah, I don't think I've ever been shy about letting people know which costume sets I considered ill-conceived. In my opinion, Cryptic has definitely strayed off the tracks of what the superhero genre is, and when coming up with costume ideas they treat the game as more of a "Let's play dress-up with dolls" game than a "superhero" game, which, last time I checked, the former was never on any genre categories on Steam or whatever other retailer used to or still currently does sell the game. Even the Transformers costume set (let's not lie to ourselves, that's what it is), while I much prefer tech-based costumes to most other things, I think was a mistake because we're not fighting for Cybertron in this game. It was way off-key.

    I think "Well, we added a bunch of stuff that doesn't really fit the theme, so let's just keep on going completely off the rails," is not the answer. I think "Well, we added a bunch of stuff that doesn't really fit the theme, so let's focus on getting back to what the game is really supposed to be," is a much better Plan B.

    I get that the game is more than just superheroes to a lot of people, and that's great for them, but to all the people who expected this game to be more about superheroes than anything else, it's a big negative every time they go just a bit farther from what we expect.

    Looking at the game overall, at its core it's still very, very much a superhero game. You have your standard super-villains doing super-villainy try-to-take-over-the-world stuff, a flagship superhero group similar to the likes of the Justice League and other groups similar to SHIELD or HYDRA. You have powerful mega-villains on the same level as Darkseid and Ultron requiring a joint-effort of multiple heroes to take down, like how it happens so often in comic books.

    It isn't just all about how superheroes are supposed to "look" like and how much straying-away from the well-established formula is to be tolerated even if it feels like a dress-up doll simulator. The theme is still always going to be there. What exactly classifies as a superhero comic book has already become ambiguous if focusing on character concepts. It has already long strayed from the classic colorful tights-and-mask template, considering also that we are already very spoiled in tights choices. Heck, even with the examples I cited previously, if someone wants to be Sunflower Girl, a type who might fit the kooky Great Lakes Avenger theme, or some crazed bank robber villain wearing a horse head, it's still all very plausible within a superhero context.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator

    Looking at the game overall, at it's core it's still a superhero game. You have your standard super-villains doing super-villainy try-to-take-over-the-world stuff, a flagship superhero group similar to the likes of the Justice League. You have powerful mega-villains on the same level as Darkseid and Ultron requiring a joint-effort of multiple heroes to take down, like how it happens so often in comic books.

    It all isn't just about how superheroes are supposed to "look" like and how much straying-away from the well-established formula is to be tolerated even if it feels like a dress-up doll simulator. The theme is still always going to be there. What exactly classifies as a superhero comic book has already become ambiguous. It has already long strayed from the classic colorful tights-and-mask template, considering also that we are already very spoiled in tights choices. Heck, even with the examples I cited previously, if someone wants to be Sunflower Girl, a type who might fit the kooky Great Lakes Avenger theme, or some crazed bank robber villain wearing a horse head, it's still all very plausible within a superhero context.

    Sure, but, how often do you see those weird pieces in use? Yeah, you could make Sunflower Girl, but I've never seen her in-game. Most of the times I see these pieces used by people who are really good at playing dress-up and making costumes for costume contests. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend they did or didn't get a great return on investment for that costume, but I'm gonna say, I doubt it.

    I'm mainly saying that they went far off away from superhero comic settings with their costumes and some of their content. I don't know if you remember, but the first year of content coming out of Champions was fantasy armor, magic realms, etc. Lots of very fantasy inspired stuff. It wasn't until a year after launch that they even put out their first tights set, after much complaining about it on the forums. Recently I think it's been a lot better. Mechanon was great, even the Lemurian invasion was cool. Cybermind, Resistance, etc. All those I thought were cool.

    Also I'd like to point out that the original post asked for our opinions, and I've been pretty consistent in saying that these are my personal opinions, and I'm not saying any decision is clear-cut right or wrong.

    Last point - I find that a lot of people who try to redefine what a superhero is are people who are trying to justify "new ideas" to bring into this game. I don't see this kind of thing happening within comics fans and creators.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    a1fighter said:

    1: You consider less than 15% a "large part" of character backgrounds/origins? I guess this is why we can't see eye to eye.

    Well, not to sound like a jerk, but i am not trying to see eye to eye with you, lol. I just wanted opinions, and you gave yours. Thx btw. However, your fantasy argument is severly flawed, hence others are starting to point out its' flaws.

    The "not seeing eye-to-eye" part is about you thinking that less than 13% of character origins should be considered "a large part". To me it's just not. No need to be making little passive-aggressive shots about it. And likewise, I think your fantasy argument is severely flawed as well as you're putting a lot more weight into it than it actually has. Also, I'm not the only one against having centaurs in the game, so, according to your own terms, your argument is severely flawed.

    Honestly, asking people for their opinions and arguing about it and then telling them their opinion is wrong doesn't make for good discussion. Next time, maybe just ask for people who agree with you to give their opinions. That'll be useful.
    a1fighter said:

    It seems like you are getting rather defensive, this is just a friendly discussion. that % is rather large, considering the other areas of origins. its not like one area makes up 50% of the pages/content.

    If by "defensive" you mean I'm defending my points and opinions? Sure. Or do you expect me to just completely change my outlook and not give a response to your arguments?

    Again, sounds like you were just looking for an echo chamber.
    a1fighter said:

    As it pertains to number 6, ever heard of DC Fables? Iirc, Its based upon fantasy and fairy tales where the heroes/villians are called fables. there are several animals, notably the Jungle Book creatures.

    You should know that not every character that appears in a comic book publication is a superhero. Example: Jungle Book creatures.
    a1fighter said:

    Regardless, you cannot deny players the right to use their imagination

    A point I already made. Are you even reading my replies?
    a1fighter said:

    dc.wikia.com/wiki/Bagheera_%28Fables%29

    Looks like a hero to me, can totally see a four-legged hero. Another thing, CO is CO, not DC comics, although DC has the fables and the super dog, CO is its' own entity, no one is stopping them (other than money, hence i prefaced my comments with "I am not saying they would do this") from implementing four legged heroes. It has been done already. Not sure anyone would quit playing a super hero MMO if they seen a black panther climbing a building fighting crime.

    Yes, there are heroes in many genres of all sorts of writing and storytelling. There are heroes in real life, as well. But your big problem seems to be that you have a lack of distinction between what a hero is and what a superhero is.

    You're the one that brought up DC comics as a basis for saying we should have centaurs as playable characters. Don't dismiss DC Comics to try to prove a point against me. That's silly.
    a1fighter said:

    Grew up watching four-legged heroes in Digimon and Zoids. CO should be called a hero MMO then, since the heavy fantasy elements offend players. Super-hero MMO players appear to be a small audience, a hero MMO could implement the best of both worlds, targeting a larger audience, because Super heroes appear to be a Western thing, while the far East has anime (As-well as some super-heroes).

    Haha, you want to change the entire genre of the game just so you can have some creatures as playable characters? It should just be called a "hero MMO" so that you can shoehorn your own idea of what a hero is into this game that is obviously not about what you want? Okay, you actually made me laugh out loud with this part. I can't even take this seriously anymore. Wow.

    I'm all for someone making a "hero MMO" to suit your needs... I hear that there's a Digimon MMO out there, you might wanna give that a whirl. There's also lots and lots of Asian MMOs out there for you to try that look like anime. Good luck out there, man, but don't expect the next game you play to change its genre for you.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited November 2015

    Sure, but, how often do you see those weird pieces in use? Yeah, you could make Sunflower Girl, but I've never seen her in-game. Most of the times I see these pieces used by people who are really good at playing dress-up and making costumes for costume contests. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend they did or didn't get a great return on investment for that costume, but I'm gonna say, I doubt it.

    I'll have to spend my time logged into the game 24/7 snooping for how often certain costume pieces are used versus others for some kind of objective comparison. A good indicator that the player isn't strictly using certain costume pieces for costume contests but also thematically might lie in how their toon bio is constructed.

    I'm mainly saying that they went far off away from superhero comic settings with their costumes and some of their content. I don't know if you remember, but the first year of content coming out of Champions was fantasy armor, magic realms, etc. Lots of very fantasy inspired stuff. It wasn't until a year after launch that they even put out their first tights set, after much complaining about it on the forums. Recently I think it's been a lot better. Mechanon was great, even the Lemurian invasion was cool. Cybermind, Resistance, etc. All those I thought were cool.

    All of which isn't exactly an alien concept when it comes to superhero themes. They might have gone overboard just a little with that, but personally there wasn't a single time I felt I was playing D&D as opposed to a superhero game with a fantasy aspect to it.

    Last point - I find that a lot of people who try to redefine what a superhero is are people who are trying to justify "new ideas" to bring into this game. I don't see this kind of thing happening within comics fans and creators.

    I don't see why we should strictly abide by every convention and so-called rules made up by comic creators. Yes, the game is superhero-themed and should follow certain conventions found in comic books to a certain extent, but CO is a video game and an entirely different entertainment medium with its own set of conventions. The whole customization thing and "be the hero you want to be" concept isn't in comic books nor is it relevant there. It invites players with character-creation possibilities that don't have to abide by comic book conventions, and to create something entirely unique and somewhat original if they want to. In turn the system provides that incentive for players to have the freedom to redefine what a superhero is. I don't see anything negative about it.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator


    I don't see why we should strictly abide by every convention and so-called rules made up by comic creators. Yes, the game is superhero-themed and should follow certain conventions found in comic books to a certain extent, but CO is a video game and an entirely different entertainment medium with its own set of conventions. The whole customization thing and "be the hero you want to be" concept isn't in comic books nor is it relevant there. It invites players with character-creation possibilities that don't have to abide by comic book conventions, and to create something entirely unique and somewhat original if they want to. In turn the system provides that incentive for players to have the freedom to redefine what a superhero is. I don't see anything negative about it.

    Because why start alienating people who are a fan of the genre? The more you dilute the genre, the more it becomes just a mish-mash of whatever the current designers' interests lie in. What if the Secret World designers were into My Little Pony and made an expansion all around that, saying "Magic and other dimensions are not alien to this setting, so this fits." Is that what you'd want to see in that game? I'm sure there are some people that would love that, but people who are a fan of what the game is actually about, you think they'd be like "Oh that's cool!" What if Transformers took a turn for the wizards and dragons? What if Harry Potter went cyberpunk? What if Wildstar decided to go backwards in time and advance technology with steampunk stuff? What if Star Trek started being about exploring Earth's oceans instead of space? What if FarmVille branched out into politics and mole people? What if Resident Evil said screw zombies, let's do city-building. What if the Sims turned into an alien-shooting FPS?

    Is there a good reason to dilute the genre? I know that personally, it would be detrimental to me, and I'd start looking for another game. And no, that's not some weak threat, it's just what would happen.
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited November 2015

    Because why start alienating people who are a fan of the genre? The more you dilute the genre, the more it becomes just a mish-mash of whatever the current designers' interests lie in. What if the Secret World designers were into My Little Pony and made an expansion all around that, saying "Magic and other dimensions are not alien to this setting, so this fits." Is that what you'd want to see in that game? I'm sure there are some people that would love that, but people who are a fan of what the game is actually about, you think they'd be like "Oh that's cool!" What if Transformers took a turn for the wizards and dragons? What if Harry Potter went cyberpunk? What if Wildstar decided to go backwards in time and advance technology with steampunk stuff? What if Star Trek started being about exploring Earth's oceans instead of space? What if FarmVille branched out into politics and mole people? What if Resident Evil said screw zombies, let's do city-building. What if the Sims turned into an alien-shooting FPS?

    Is there a good reason to dilute the genre? I know that personally, it would be detrimental to me, and I'd start looking for another game. And no, that's not some weak threat, it's just what would happen.

    I'm not finding anything in this game that's even comparable to all those exaggerated scenarios, nor has it been in that kind of developmental direction. That's like saying just because a huge majority of players for example have certain tailoring preferences that veer towards a fantasy D&D look, the game suddenly feels like D&D. It's still going to be about superheroes beating up bad guys and saving the world in general, both visually and mechanically. A team of nothing but people in knight armor, undead vampires and elven archers isn't magically going to make that bank robbery alert a dungeon crawl.

    Heck, I doubt that even the introduction of a four-legged centaur or alien model would do anything to "dilute" the genre since it changes nothing about the core playable content of the game, which would still retain that genre theme. It seems like a harmless non-threatening suggestion. I don't see why the "go play another MMO" angle had to be resorted to.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    a1fighter said:

    "You should know that not every character that appears in a comic book publication is a superhero. Example: Jungle Book creatures."

    Which is why I stated the Fables were based upon fairy tales and fantasy; seems like you are arguing just to argue, lol. This discussion is going all over the place. DC collabed to introduce the fables, which are the protagonist of the comics.

    You stated that they were no heroes whom stood on all four, I gave you an example,

    Do you know the Muppets? They're all puppets. But you know all the puppets that aren't Muppets? They're just puppets. Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets.

    I said that I could find no lion SUPERHEROES. Superheroes are heroes, but not all heroes are superheroes.

    There's a distinction. You should learn it.
    a1fighter said:

    while noting that they were fantasy fairy tale characters (Which further enhances my argument btw, you originally stated that fantasy is not really emphasized in comics), but you merely repeated what i posted in my comment, stating they were jungle book characters.

    Peter Pan is a fantasy hero. He's not a superhero. Again, there's a distinction.
    a1fighter said:


    You stated that monsters and animals were not relevant in CO, then went on to describe monster and animal ties to the game.

    Wrong. I stated that centaurs are not relevant to Champions, and asked if you could provide evidence to the contrary.
    a1fighter said:


    You stated that fantasy is minuscule in comics, I gave you examples of popular heroes.

    That's not how it works. You can't say a minority is a majority just because you can point to a few minorities as existing.

    That's like me saying that fantasy-based superheroes are minuscule because there's Spider-Man, Cyclops, Iceman, Hulk, Iron Man, Ant-Man, Captain Falcon, Hawkeye, Human Torch, Moon Knight, Daredevil, Dazzler, Storm, Colossus, Captain America, Nova, Havoc... I could go on. Proof that they exist isn't proof that they're a large part of it.
    a1fighter said:


    You gave me some number to work with, I used your own numbers to show that fantasy does make up a sizable amount of content in comics, but you dismissed it, saying that 15% is not enough, although each origin is divided into groups, with fantasy being ranked #3.

    Mind you that was talking just DC specifically. But being third-largest doesn't make it "a large part."
    a1fighter said:


    You stated that CO has a niche, but I illustrated how it does not, CO has fantasy and sci-fi elements.

    "Haha, you want to change the entire genre of the game just so you can have some creatures as playable characters?"

    You have an issue with the fantasy elements, not I.

    I don't have an issue with fantasy elements. I have an issue with fantasy elements being crammed into a genre where it's just ridiculous to have them in. Again, how many centaur or lion superheroes can you name? How many "on all fours" superheroes can you name? Even most fantasy-based superheroes are bipeds. Asking for centaurs and saying it's a normal thing in superhero comics is asinine!
    a1fighter said:


    I pretty much debunked every argument you brought to the table.

    Sticking your fingers in your ears while misreading a lot of what I said is hardly debunking.
    a1fighter said:

    You have yet to prove anything I am posting as false. I can pick out any of your arguments and prove them false, because you are merely arguing just to argue, watch this.....

    Yeah, the problem is that when I ask you to provide some form of citation to back your arguments, you reply as if you haven't read my posts at all, but you're hearing it from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who heard it from another friend on a real bad cell phone connection.
    a1fighter said:

    "Yes, there are heroes in many genres of all sorts of writing and storytelling. There are heroes in real life, as well. But your big problem seems to be that you have a lack of distinction between what a hero is and what a superhero is."


    Krypto and Ace.

    "Ace the Bat-Hound was the canine crime-fighting partner of Batman and Robin in DC Comics of the 1950s and 1960s."

    batman.wikia.com/wiki/Ace_the_Bat-Hound

    Clearly these characters are a large part of the comic books selling these days, correct?
    a1fighter said:


    You see? Lol, I don't get it dude, what are we arguing about, I am dishing out facts. Super-hero? Well, BatMan has no super powers by definition, just a normal human, as-well as Robin.

    No, you're not dishing out facts. You're completely missing points and just saying the same thing over and over as if that will make you more correct. Dishing out facts would be you posting a grand list of all the world's greatest centaur superheroes to back your ridiculous argument, when in fact I'm the only one so far that has even mentioned one. Still nothing from you. What's up with that? Dish out some facts, man.

    I personally don't think of Bat-Man and Robin and the like as superheroes. I consider them more costumed crime fighters. Even though they've come to be widely accepted as superheroes, I just don't think it fits the bill because of, once again, genre dilution. I don't consider Phoenix Jones a superhero for the same reasons. He may look the part, but does he do anything that's actually super? No. Vigilante? Crime Fighter? Costumed? Yeah. Superhero? No.
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Community Moderator
    a1fighter said:

    Me neither, it is not that serious. i agree, it is all harmless, just attempting to take the pulse of the forums. I really have no clue what he is going on about. Seems like he cannot admit when he was wrong. i mean, I agree with him, there are not a ton of animals walking on all-fours as heroes, good point. However, he appears to have an issue doing that, hence this fantasy argument is resorting to such talk. I mean Biff......maybe you were wrong about the fantasy elements? Just maybe?

    Nobody is correct 100% of the time, I am not, far from it.

    a1fighter said:

    Listen, you can have the last word if ya want lol, i have nothing to prove. You are not dishing any facts, hence are arguing just to argue. Just want to know everyone's thoughts on four-legged heroes.

    Ha! Wow, okay. You asked for opinions, and you argued against mine. Who's the one arguing "just to argue"? I gave my opinion and you argued against it. You are a total and complete hypocrite, man.

    Further, you don't know me. I admit all the time that I'm wrong about stuff. I have a different opinion than you, and the fact that I don't change that opinion because of your arguments, you're labeling that as me not being able to admit I'm wrong? The exact same could be said about you.

    And really, if I had any interest in having the lost word, this topic could have been closed after my first reply. Or my second, or third, or whatever. It's plainly obvious that that's not what I'm after.

    Again, I replied to your replies because I thought you wanted a discussion, but you're clearly after an echo chamber. Clearly I'm to blame?

    I'm not finding anything in this game that's even comparable to all those exaggerated scenarios, nor has it been in that kind of developmental direction. That's like saying just because a huge majority of players for example have certain tailoring preferences that veer towards a fantasy D&D look, the game suddenly feels like D&D. It's still going to be about superheroes beating up bad guys and saving the world in general, both visually and mechanically. A team of nothing but people in knight armor, undead vampires and elven archers isn't magically going to make that bank robbery alert a dungeon crawl.

    Heck, I doubt that even the introduction of a four-legged centaur or alien model would do anything to "dilute" the genre since it changes nothing about the core playable content of the game, which would still retain that genre theme. It seems like a harmless non-threatening suggestion. I don't see why the "go play another MMO" angle had to be resorted to.

    No, there's no single change that's going to dilute the genre, but the farther you stray, the more you dilute.

    Again I ask, is adding something that's so completely left-field adding anything positive to the game? Let's keep in mind that spending developer time on the game is meant to add revenue to it.

    What does a centaur body add? Does it add to the superhero experience? Does it add to the comic book experience? Does it add anything to storytelling? What's it do? What is the benefit?

    And the "go play another MMO" angle only came from the absolutely ridiculous suggestion that the game have its genre changed so we could play as Digimon.

    Damn, I guess if I'm on the popularly-losing side of a conversation where a change of genre is the way to go so that we can play as little monsters in a superhero game, I really shouldn't be in this thread.

    Have fun, folks! This is me saying I was wrong the whole time. Digimon centaurs forever!

    hahaha
    biffsig.jpg
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User



    No, there's no single change that's going to dilute the genre, but the farther you stray, the more you dilute.

    Again I ask, is adding something that's so completely left-field adding anything positive to the game? Let's keep in mind that spending developer time on the game is meant to add revenue to it.

    Superheroes flying hover tanks and bikes with high caliber explosive and laser weaponry and able to overkill lowly street henchmen seemed like something completely left-field, yet they somehow came off as profitable since there were several iterations of them released. How about those Back To the Future 3-esque hover trains? Upon the very first vehicle release that is the prototype wing, people were already remarking how unfitting it was for a superhero game. Yet, vehicles have proven to have justified the developer time and resources seeing how many of them have already been released. Turned out positive.

    If the masses find it an acceptable and appealing addition and are willing to bring revenue into the game, yup it's positive. Win win. By the way, not saying that I 100% agree that a four-legged model should be brought into the game, but just acknowledging that if the masses want to pay for it, could be good for the game.



  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    Champions already has a "kitchen-sink" approach to what kinds of things exist in game. Four-legged could be thrown in, too.
    Alas.

    Like Biff, I think that some game additions are frankly bizarre even in the Champs universe, which is pretty bizarre to begin with. An undead cyborg wolf-dragon flying a steampunk train with gravity pulse just seem so out of place in the Champions comic book world, but the game has already gone there.


    The other point, developer time and resources, is much more salient. Given the amount of work to create the skeleton, animations, costumes, and textures, plus the additional time to get new costume pieces to work with four-legged characters, I just don't see this happening.

    Feel free to continue opining, though.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,707 Arc User
    Not at all interested in the devs spending time on 4 legged heroes (4 armed would be cool though), not a worthwhile investment in scarce resources when so many other things that would be of interest to a wider variety of people could be done. Now, a winged horse "vehicle" would be OK in my book (though I'd rather have a variety of flying thrones first).​​
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  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    on the actual question- no interest.

    so you make 4 legs, you then have to redesign all the costumes for 4 legs.
    same for 4 arms, as well as the power animation.
    there are 2 specific models in the game with extra arms, grond and grondlings. netiher of which have clothes on top and both have not much in the way of pants either.
    and here we have a nice thread from DCUO
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/the-real-problem-behind-dcuo.259847/​​
    Post edited by chaelk on
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  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    Have you seen the dopey four legged creatures we already have in this game?

    Imagine that with a person's torso sprouting out where the head should be! :D

    It made me laugh, but no thanks.

  • orlokk88orlokk88 Posts: 10 Arc User
    Would totally settle for a wolf travel power. I would pay Zen
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    I do love me some magic and fantasy elements in comics(Dr Strange is one of my favorite heroes!), CO has plenty of that stuff. We do not need centaurs any more than we need gorgons, unicorns, or manticores. Which is to say we don't really need them... unless CO opens a new zone in the realm of fae or whatever...which has exactly as much a chance of happening as getting the devs to add centaurs to the game.

  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 707 Arc User

    I personally don't think of Bat-Man and Robin and the like as superheroes. I consider them more costumed crime fighters. Even though they've come to be widely accepted as superheroes, I just don't think it fits the bill because of, once again, genre dilution. I don't consider Phoenix Jones a superhero for the same reasons. He may look the part, but does he do anything that's actually super? No. Vigilante? Crime Fighter? Costumed? Yeah. Superhero? No.

    A bit of a tangent, here, but I'm curious - what's your definition of a Superhero, then?
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that he means...

    Superheroes are the ones that have super powers and use them to do heroic things.

  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    In modern popular fiction, a superhero (sometimes rendered super-hero or super hero) is a type of heroic character possessing extraordinary talents, supernatural phenomena, or superhuman powers and is dedicated to a moral goal or protecting the public. A female superhero is sometimes called a superheroine (also rendered super-heroine or super heroine). Fiction centered on such characters, especially in American comic books since the 1930s, is known as superhero fiction.

    By most definitions, characters do not require actual supernatural or superhuman powers or phenomena to be deemed superheroes.Terms such as masked crime fighters, costumed adventurers or masked vigilantes are sometimes used to refer to characters such as the Spirit, who may not be explicitly referred to as superheroes but nevertheless share similar traits.

    Some superheroes use their powers to counter day-to-day crime while also combating threats against humanity by supervillains, their criminal counterparts. Often, at least one of these supervillains will be the superhero's archenemy. Some long-running superheroes such as Superman, Batman, Captain America, Spider-Man, Iron Man and the Flash have a rogues gallery of recurring enemies. Superheroes sometimes will combat such threats as aliens, supernatural entities, and even ideological enemies such as Nazis.
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  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Posts: 522 Arc User

    a superhero (sometimes rendered super-hero or super hero)

    DC and Marvel hold a joint trademark for "Super Hero". How well this would hold up in a court is anyone's guess.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    DC and Marvel hold a joint trademark for "Super Hero". How well this would hold up in a court is anyone's guess.

    DC and Marvel own the trademark on superhero and every variation there of, including super hero, Super Hero, super-hero and so forth and so on. But yea, how well it would hold in court is anyone's guess. However, both DC and Marvel have used the legal muscle to strong arm small time businesses into using another words that couldn't afford the legal fees in such cases, so small time comic creators have had to change the word to something else due to that type of legal loophole.​​
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,061 Arc User
    a1fighter said:

    I know that animation and costume sets will have to cater to both groups, I am speaking hypothetically, in a general sense, CO dying state aside, will you be interested in a four-legged stance from the character creation screen?

    Hypothetically speaking, I would not be interested enough to cover the development costs of doing it.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited November 2015
    a1fighter wrote: »
    I know that animation and costume sets will have to cater to both groups, I am speaking hypothetically, in a general sense, CO dying state aside, will you be interested in a four-legged stance from the character creation screen?

    No. The number of people this would affect would be substantially small for the cost of development, saying easily three months of work with 3 developers (an artist a modeller and an animator not including a programmer) that would easily be $60,000 in development costs, and that's if you go at bare minimum and don't include other potential fees as well. And that's not including QA, test server time or any of that other stuff.

    And then there is the basic fact who would this serve? I think you can count on one hand the number of characters that have actually appeared in super hero comics that have centaur style bodies, and they were side characters at best. I do think there needs to be a line drawn somewhere of what is and isn't that fits within the superhero genre, which sorry to say CoT (if it ever goes anywhere) is furthest from in the pitch they've given.​​
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  • chaelkchaelk Posts: 7,732 Arc User
    under Hero ganes system;
    super heroes are the ones with powers,
    batman would come under skilled normal​​
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