Hey can we have open world monsters that cant be done solo?

nepht · October 2015

Seriously all the big beasts in this game can be soloed by any player on their tod ( even ATs that know what they are doing ). I mean how many nubs do you know that beat Teliosaur then post pics of themselves standing in front of it as if they have achieved something in life?

I say add more big nasties that actually take teamwork to take down. I say add and not make the current ones harder btw. Harder open world beasts would give people more of a reason to create builds that help and foster teamwork ^_^

Give us some Monster Hunter hard baddies to smush >:D

aiqa · October 2015

I fully agree, it would be nice if other things than F&I require some teamwork to win.

championshewolf · October 2015

Combination enrage and the purple triangle mechanics from CoH might actually help with that, to be blunt about it.

I know Teleiosaurus use to regen but it required a DPS threshold to beat, something anyone can do now. Since I was bored was testing actually, burned through 500,000 HP in less than 3 minutes, and that was with me blocking the foot stomp and breath attack and forgetting to use AOs and UR's regularly. So yea, high DPS isn't hard, since that was almost 2800, (2777.77...) basically. So in all took me about 15 minutes to take down Teleiosaurus solo.

Teilio%20Down_zpsau7gwcnu.jpg

pantagruel01 · October 2015

nepht said:
Seriously all the big beasts in this game can be soloed by any player on their tod ( even ATs that know what they are doing ). I mean how many nubs do you know that beat Teliosaur then post pics of themselves standing in front of it as if they have achieved something in life?

Not very many. It requires actually finding Teleiosaurus first.

nepht said:
I say add more big nasties that actually take teamwork to take down.

What sort of 'hard' would do that? The Anniversary megas aren't practical to solo but they still don't involve teamwork, just collecting enough dps.

nepht · October 2015

pantagruel01 said:

nepht said:
Seriously all the big beasts in this game can be soloed by any player on their tod ( even ATs that know what they are doing ). I mean how many nubs do you know that beat Teliosaur then post pics of themselves standing in front of it as if they have achieved something in life?
Not very many. It requires actually finding Teleiosaurus first.
nepht said:
I say add more big nasties that actually take teamwork to take down.
What sort of 'hard' would do that? The Anniversary megas aren't practical to solo but they still don't involve teamwork, just collecting enough dps.

Everyone thats played the game enough knows how to get Teleiosaurus, heck Shev ( Remember her :P ) is a blinking master at Teleio hunting. Lets run that by everyone again.... Shev can solo Teliosaurus. So yeah any casual player could find and gank it, its not a challenge at all.

And I already said I wanted "Monster Hunter" hard ^__^

Dare I say it stuff that requires a Tank, a DPS and a Healer I know these be bad words here but at least some permanent optional content that requires this would be great.

Heres Shev fighting Mega-T ^__^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-P78uLi7aU

spinnytop · October 2015

Careful Nepht, people might accuse you of liking Dark Souls if you continue on this path.

nepht · October 2015

spinnytop said:
Careful Nepht, people might accuse you of liking Dark Souls if you continue on this path.

I like Dark Souls 2 better.

spinnytop · October 2015

nepht said:

spinnytop said:
Careful Nepht, people might accuse you of liking Dark Souls if you continue on this path.
I like Dark Souls 2 better.

burn the witch! \( owo )/

nepht · October 2015

spinnytop said:
Careful Nepht, people might accuse you of liking Dark Souls if you continue on this path.

Heres the thing. There is a lot of truth in this* as more and more mmo players are expecting more and more games to actually try and kill them. NES hard is making a comeback. Giving CO some OPTIONAL NES hard content would do wonders for this games replay-ability .

I must state any super hard stuff should always be optional.

*Which is normal the case with most Spinny's posts you just have to dig deep past the no u to find it @_@

championshewolf said:
Combination enrage and the purple triangle mechanics from CoH might actually help with that, to be blunt about it.

I know Teleiosaurus use to regen but it required a DPS threshold to beat, something anyone can do now. Since I was bored was testing actually, burned through 500,000 HP in less than 3 minutes, and that was with me blocking the foot stomp and breath attack and forgetting to use AOs and UR's regularly. So yea, high DPS isn't hard, since that was almost 2800, (2777.77...) basically. So in all took me about 15 minutes to take down Teleiosaurus solo.

I can never get that stupid dino to die in a good place for a picture, its always got its head stuck in a rock or an AFK Punchy ._o

spinnytop · October 2015

nepht said:

I must state any super hard stuff should always be optional.

Ya but you know there are people who aren't okay with this. Their motto is "If it aint' for me, it shouldn't be!". Heck, anytime I've been a part of suggesting some harder content for the game, people somehow twisted it around in their brains and were like "UR TRYIN TA TURN DA GAME INTO MASOCHISM!" or whatever garbled nonsense it was they typed out as a response.

It is true though, that the "age of ez games" is turning over, and thanks to some very popular "hard" games there is a resurgence of the desire for games to challenge players. Just look at Mario Maker - people who make sadistically hard levels are fairly popular. CO is actually a good candidate for this type of gameplay for one specific reason - fast respawning. See, that's one thing that a lot of these games have in common; when you die, you respawn very quickly and can try again, generally without penalty. For example Super Meat Boy or No Time To Explain; you can die 60+ times in a minute in those games, and yet it feels great to play those games - specifically because you can die 60+ times in a minute.

In CO there generally aren't "raid wipes"; in the majority of content, when you die, you just get up again a short distance away with virtually no penalty ( the only penalty is the stars thing, which is basically irrelevant ), free to rush back into the fight. It's actually a great game to add some really challenging content to ( so long as it's behavior-based challenge, and not numbers-based challenge ).

But we can't have that because the scared people always show up with their torches and pitchforks and try to stamp out any chance at change! \( o3o )/

deadman20 · October 2015

Hehe, Monster Hunter difficulty practically requires the combat style Monster Hunter employs. And well, considering how CO isn't exactly a physics or skillshot/telegraph reliant game, that style of fighting ain't gonna happen here. That being said, I LOVE Monster Hunter. The Lance and Bowgun are my favorite weapon types, after those is the Hunting Horn and Sword n Shield.

...

Look at what you've done.

nepht · October 2015

spinnytop said:

Ya but you know there are people who aren't okay with this. Their motto is "If it aint' for me, it shouldn't be!". Heck, anytime I've been a part of suggesting some harder content for the game, people somehow twisted it around in their brains and were like "UR TRYIN TA TURN DA GAME INTO MASOCHISM!" or whatever garbled nonsense it was they typed out as a response.

It is true though, that the "age of ez games" is turning over, and thanks to some very popular "hard" games there is a resurgence of the desire for games to challenge players. Just look at Mario Maker - people who make sadistically hard levels are fairly popular. CO is actually a good candidate for this type of gameplay for one specific reason - fast respawning. See, that's one thing that a lot of these games have in common; when you die, you respawn very quickly and can try again, generally without penalty. For example Super Meat Boy or No Time To Explain; you can die 60+ times in a minute in those games, and yet it feels great to play those games - specifically because you can die 60+ times in a minute.

In CO there generally aren't "raid wipes"; in the majority of content, when you die, you just get up again a short distance away with virtually no penalty ( the only penalty is the stars thing, which is basically irrelevant ), free to rush back into the fight. It's actually a great game to add some really challenging content to ( so long as it's behavior-based challenge, and not numbers-based challenge ).

But we can't have that because the scared people always show up with their torches and pitchforks and try to stamp out any chance at change! \( o3o )/

This needs to be put on a big 2001 style monolith right in the middle of Ren Cen.

deadman20 said:
Hehe, Monster Hunter difficulty practically requires the combat style Monster Hunter employs. And well, considering how CO isn't exactly a physics or skillshot/telegraph reliant game, that style of fighting ain't gonna happen here. That being said, I LOVE Monster Hunter. The Lance and Bowgun are my favorite weapon types, after those is the Hunting Horn and Sword n Shield.

...

Look at what you've done.

Arrgh I wish I wasnt away from home at the mo. I play Monster Hunter on my Wii U ( handhelds give me headaches).

championshewolf · October 2015

nepht wrote: »

I can never get that stupid dino to die in a good place for a picture, its always got its head stuck in a rock or an AFK Punchy ._o

Well tell Punchy to move. Otherwise, I figured standing in front of easily soloable content is all the rage now. If I ever get up the gump again I should solo Gravitar, but that takes too long and I don't have that kind of patience. Still don't know what drove me to fight the Teleiosaurus from beginning to end since it really isn't worth my time, even if it was on Live. But hey, I guess it's a significant statement of my skill or builds power or some such thing or something. So I guess my next goal is to make a collage of pictures showing me having defeated all the easily defeatable boss monsters solo in this game, because, damned if I know.

Also need a quote taken out of context to justify said collage.

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championshewolf · October 2015

Yep, cause there aren't a multitude builds that can hunt Teleiosaurus rather easily in today's game meta now, right?

But as usual, good on you for missing the sarcasm in the post Gradii.

Unknown · October 2015

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jonsills · October 2015

Problem with making anything "impossible to solo" by everyone is that in order to do this, you're going to have to make it so hard that the average player doesn't stand a chance, even in a team. We've got some seriously broken builds out there, guys.

championshewolf · October 2015

An Enrage mechanic combined with the Purple Triangles effect from CoH would actually go a long way to prevent soloing.

pantagruel01 · October 2015

It's not really that hard to make something unsoloable; the top end builds have on the order of 7k sustained dps and not enough burst to burst down a cosmic, so 15k heal per second (halved for Trauma) will do the job.

championshewolf · October 2015

pantagruel01 wrote: »

It's not really that hard to make something unsoloable; the top end builds have on the order of 7k sustained dps and not enough burst to burst down a cosmic, so 15k heal per second (halved for Trauma) will do the job.

The trick is also to make a player break off and want help to. While you could go the old Teleiosaurus root before On Alert that a team not meeting the DPS threshold meant she just regen'd back to full health once she got down a 5th of her health, but people would just keep going until bored or something. On the flip if you make it where the mobs start getting stronger and hitting harder after various time allotments pass, then players might start considering they need more than themselves involved.

championshewolf · October 2015

jonsills wrote: »

Problem with making anything "impossible to solo" by everyone is that in order to do this, you're going to have to make it so hard that the average player doesn't stand a chance, even in a team. We've got some seriously broken builds out there, guys.

That really isn't true either.

nepht · October 2015

gradii said:
Hunting teliosaurus still requires specific builds. Sure anyone can make one but it's not easy for just everyone.

I make oddball builds never really bother getting gear over heroic and normally just stick with level 5 mods and I am yet to die at the hands of Teliosaurus.

dr490nbr347hi · October 2015

That'd be awesome, not to mention insanely refreshing.

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roughbearmattach · October 2015

The game could have a mechanic where a super-tough boss got a debuff for each hero engaging in battle. Onslaught Villains already have a counter, and it could be repurposed.

You literally make a boss that requires a team to defeat.

deadman20 · October 2015

What if I told you that Turando could solo the open world cosmics?

You see, difficulty should NEVER be a numbers game. Math ain't difficult. Annoying to do? Sure, but not hard at all. Difficulty should be measured by the amount of strategy that is put into the fight, and considering our Lemming AI and lack of any Skillshot/Telegraph attacks with a Locked-on Targeting system, it's going to take some massive overhauls to how powers and the AI works before we can achieve any true difficulty. Right now it's all just running numbers against one another.

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championshewolf · October 2015

deadman20 wrote: »

What if I told you that Turando could solo the open world cosmics?

You see, difficulty should NEVER be a numbers game. Math ain't difficult. Annoying to do? Sure, but not hard at all. Difficulty should be measured by the amount of strategy that is put into the fight, and considering our Lemming AI and lack of any Skillshot/Telegraph attacks with a Locked-on Targeting system, it's going to take some massive overhauls to how powers and the AI works before we can achieve any true difficulty. Right now it's all just running numbers against one another.

We actually have a skill shot telegraph system. Just most people ignore that little icon, which also designates the type of attack you will see.

Unknown · October 2015

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pantagruel01 · October 2015

deadman20 said:
What if I told you that Turando could solo the open world cosmics?

You see, difficulty should NEVER be a numbers game.

Numbers play a part in difficulty: they force you to make correct decisions under pressure, and they limit your ability to make mistakes. It is not inherently more difficult to block an attack that will one-shot you than to block an attack that will not, but a fight that requires twenty perfect blocks is a lot harder than a fight that merely requires you to succeed at half your blocks.

kittykaboomboom · October 2015

the picture collector - strafing run, dinos. Can't remember what else. The generic cosmic build.
oh and telling people to get lost.
and if you don't , they move to next to you to try an get you killed.
you could look for them but they always run in /anon

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nepht · October 2015

kittykaboomboom said:
the picture collector - strafing run, dinos. Can't remember what else. The generic cosmic build.

oh and telling people to get lost.

and if you don't , they move to next to you to try an get you killed.

you could look for them but they always run in /anon

Peeps like that are the worst :V

pantagruel01 · October 2015

bluegrassbeast said:
Higher numbers ain't difficulty - it's simply tedium.

Higher hit points, at least past a certain point (fight duration > 60s or so), are tedium. Higher damage does actually meaningfully change the way you play a fight.

In terms of Gravitar, the only thing she has that lacks a tell is her random force cascades. This essentially puts a lower limit on durability to remain viable in that fight, but once you exceed that threshold it's skill-based enough.

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spinnytop · October 2015

bluegrassbeast said:
There's zero skill beyond "don't stand in the circles" and "hope the RNG doesn't screw you."

While being the first lockout content (less obnoxious now that it's to be expected, but at the time..) and ignoring threat rules.

It's trash.

Could you give some examples of mechanics that could easily be implemented in this game that you would consider "real" and "fun" difficulty that nobody could claim require no skill?

See cause, Dark Souls isn't hard... you just have to not get hit, and hit the bosses with your sword... easy. Super Meat Boy wasn't hard either, you just have to jump and wall grab across the level to the goal. No skill required. Right?

pantagruel01 · October 2015

bluegrassbeast said:
There's zero skill beyond "don't stand in the circles" and "hope the RNG doesn't screw you."

Perhaps you should learn how mechanics work before you criticize them...

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sterga · October 2015

Gravitar has ONE criteria for winning and that is "is your team tank enough". It also breaks rules the entire rest of the game established. Lockouts punishing you for respawning, which never happened before. No fancy charge-up graphic indicating a power move. Grav being "hard" relies on changing the rules. Once a player knows that Gravitar was given special snowflake rules, the fight becomes "oh, the devs just make her a cheating bastard." AKA: Lame.

The modern equivalent to "NES Hard" is call "Grind". Game were very limited and designed to kill the player with all sorts of stupid BS so that players wouldn't feel ripped off wasting $40 on a game that would be less than an hour to beat otherwise. That would be lazy design today. You keep your NES Hard. I prefer games be challenging due to intelligent, thoughtful design and not cheap gimmicks.

Dark Souls is all about careful design. If you're dying, it's because you weren't paying attention. The same can be said of Monster Hunter. You can't just rush in and button mash. It's about watching the enemy, knowing your moveset, and waiting for the right time to attack. These games are skill based, which is not how the typical MMO works.

sigmaseven0 · October 2015

+1
Overly simplified mob design has been a flaw in CO since day 1. The mob complexity in this game is even a step down form COX which was released on 2004. Unfortunately this game seems to lack the resources to address these issues in any real way.

I know its pointless, but I went ahead and made this thread Why mobs should be adjusted to work as groups "trinity" style.
It may resonate with some of you...

EDIT:
If we had the foundry, we could create scenarios with a challenge level appropriate to our specific build/skill level.

pantagruel01 · October 2015

sterga said:
Gravitar has ONE criteria for winning and that is "is your team tank enough".

That's a pretty common model for fights in all sorts of games. I wouldn't call Gravitar inspired boss design, but "survive long enough to do enough damage to win" is hardly a rare concept in MMOs or CRPGs. The general theme of the Rampages has always been "Smash alert on steroids".

sterga said:
It also breaks rules the entire rest of the game established. Lockouts punishing you for respawning, which never happened before.

Lockouts where first introduced in Therakiel's Temple, and while the older lairs don't have lockouts, they do have grossly inconvenient respawn points (many of them only have one respawn point, at the very start).

sterga said:
No fancy charge-up graphic indicating a power move.

Wasn't the first boss to be like that; Teleiosaurus didn't have charge-up graphics for about two years, and a number of important powers on other bosses (such as lifedrain) still lack any charge-up graphics because they aren't charged. All her power moves have quite distinctive and visible tells (her random cascades aren't power moves).

As far as cheating bastard bosses go, both Vikorin and Therakiel cheat way more than Gravitar; they just have lower numbers so nowadays they aren't recognized for just how unfair the mechanics are.

spinnytop · October 2015

gradii said:

Gravitar isnt hard you just need to move and block. sheesh.

Exactly. I've had these "what is challenge" conversations in a lot of games, and the one thing that is for certain is any time anyone gives an example of challenge, someone will be along shortly to say "that doesn't take any skill" while waggling their finger in the air.

The reality is, anything that requires you to pay attention and make a decision within a time frame counts as challenging in a game. How challenging depends on the time frames involved; the more demanding the timing window combined with the number of factors that must be observed to come to a correct decision, the more challenging it is. This holds true in pretty much any game. If a game expects you to notice several things and make a decision based on them in a fraction of a second, that's definitely challenging. If a game gives you five seconds to notice a giant yellow thing that fills your screen, that's still technically a challenge, just a really easy one. If a game gives you an infinite amount of time to perform a task that only requires you to spot a single thing on your screen and click on it, that's still a challenge, just a really really easy one.

There are other challenges, but this is one that makes a game more enjoyable to me, and one that I think applies heavily to any game that has "action" in its genre title.

bluegrassbeast said:
Easy comparison:

F&I:
* Avoid Ground tells
* Destroy Living (Blank)to prevent wipe
* Bust Tank out of Ice Prison
* Keep Tank alive so Tank keeps deadly Frost Daggers from being aimed at non-tank
* Balance DPS between the two targets so as to avoid rage mode-induced wipe

Gravitar:
* Avoid Ground Tells
* Hope stupid amounts of RNG-assigned damage doesn't splat you. Pray you don't need to be revived.

Can you sincerely deny that is not Gravitar's entire "skill" requirement and legitimately back it up?

F&I's ground tells are a joke. They don't actually do enough damage to warrant moving out of them, but if you decide to it's easy since they're about 2 feet wide, unlike Gravi's big ol' bubbles.
The Living Blanks get one-shotted by one person spamming any aoe power.
If "keep tank alive" is a skill requirement, then why aren't you giving credit to healers that heal in Gravitar? Especially since you mentioned the "stupid amounts of RNG" damage. Can't have it both ways Grass.
Your idea of a "skill requirement" is watching two hit point bars and being able to tell which is bigger?
How is "hoping" a skill requirement?

So, now that we've whittled F&I's list down to "Bust Tank out of Ice Prison", and Gravitar's down to "Avoid Ground Tells", and both of those are steeeewpedly easy ( either of them would be a minor part of a fight in any mmo with challenging fights ) ...what exactly was the point you were trying to make? Both of these fights are mind-numbingly easy. Was that the point? Were you pointing out how easy they were to help the argument that the game needs more challenging content?

guyhumual · October 2015

Part of the problem with turning CO into a skill based game is you can only dodge melee based attacks and a very select few of area effect abilities by moving out of range, otherwise it doesn't matter what you do, if you're being attacked you will be hit. Skills in this game are more about knowing when to activate passives, when to use devises, and understanding basic build design and knowing what equipment to take.

Moving around with Gravitar only helps avoid bubbles, if she's targeting you with a force cascade you will get hit, and so really the skill involved with fighting her comes down to building and equipping and then knowing how to play your character. If you go into the fight with a poorly designed character chances are you will do poorly, having good teammates, a good tank for example, can give you a crutch, but if you need other people's passives and heals to survive then if they fail so will you. Folks that can solo monsters like Teleiosaurus and Kigitilic clearly excel in the design and equipment portion of the game, likely even the knowing how to play their character aspect, but the difficulty of the game shouldn't be based on them as we have a whole group that have very little control over their character's design.

Unknown · October 2015

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Unknown · October 2015

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championshewolf · October 2015

sigmaseven0 wrote: »

+1
Overly simplified mob design has been a flaw in CO since day 1. The mob complexity in this game is even a step down form COX which was released on 2004. Unfortunately this game seems to lack the resources to address these issues in any real way.

I know its pointless, but I went ahead and made this thread Why mobs should be adjusted to work as groups "trinity" style.
It may resonate with some of you...

EDIT:
If we had the foundry, we could create scenarios with a challenge level appropriate to our specific build/skill level.

Uhh, no just no. While the complexity is not stellar the mob complexity is not below that of CoH. CoH mob complexity only had one stipulation that you had negative regeneration for Hero/Villain/Giant Monster mobs to take care of them. There were no special tactics needed to fight them beyond that point. The fights were very much wars of attrition. I know this because I hunted GM world bosses and none of them had a more complex AI than the other. In fact the most advanced AI, Deathsurge, was beat by the taunt mechanics to keep him from running all over the map.

And for me to kill a GM class monster all I needed was the -regen, and I usually had a friend who would help cause in the late days of CoH I had to do this alone. Hell, the hardest boss to fight for anyone was Positron because radiation was pretty much had all the debuffing you could ever ask for. He was the most dangerous boss in the Lord Recluse Strike Force, which was only harder by matter of proxy that you had to fight 8 level 53 Hero class bosses at once the majority of the time outside of stupid luck or you had a perma domination mind dominator, you were pulling all eight heroes at once, which the Statesman Task Force never had to deal with.

Even the Incarnate stuff still maintained basically the same tactics, they just added a few extra things to try and disguise it was still pretty much -regen to keep bosses from healing and DPS till dead.

Unknown · October 2015

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jonsills · October 2015

And here we see another part of the problem. Y'all are arguing about how to make the enemies more difficult, but you haven't even agreed on what "difficult" means! Couple that with the build issues (and the existence of Silver players with ATs who don't deserve to get locked out of content just because you know how to make a vicious monster build and have all the latest and greatest gear loaded down with R9 mods), and it's clear that there can be no consensus on such development, or indeed whether such development should even take place.

Unknown · October 2015

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Hey can we have open world monsters that cant be done solo?

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