So they either couldn't figure out how to get the old system of: "Was this toon using the thing got nerfed? If yes, then give token." that had been being used for literally every major nerf/change directly to powers/stats before. Or couldn't be bothered to use it.
It sure is a good thing I didn't give a **** about these changes and never designed any of my toons that use INT around total CDR utilization or I'd probably be pretty salty. Considering I've got like 40 level 40 toons now, and a chunk of them do have INT chosen as a stat.
Again with more "hyperbole" just for silverspar (because I secretly love you): Phantasy Star Online 2 gives out a permanent, free all skill tree reset pass literally every single time SEGA changes even a single thing in any of the skill trees, even ones you haven't gained any XP in. For every character on an account, and the tokens are account bound rather than character bound at that. (Have fun researching all that in japanese btw.)
If you change a major game mechanic for balance reasons I don't mind that, provided that you allow folks a chance to change their characters for free after the change. That is only fair. They might have made their characters 6 years ago and you're punishing them now for an imbalance you allowed to creep into the game.
..if you made a character 6 years ago and don't have the funds for a retcon, you messed up.
It's ONLY around 400G. That's nothing nowadays.
Or you bought other things. I don't have a problem with reconing one of my toons, but I got 76 at level 40 at the moment, and if I got to fork out Gs to recon 1/8th of them it's going to cost me a hell of a lot more then 400Gs. I suppose I'm not the average player but I'm willing to bet lots are going to have more then one character affected.
On a side note: I'm not angry and I hope my tone doesn't sound overly harsh right now. I understand the reasoning behind the change and honestly there's only a few characters of mine that this is going to adversely affect, and I don't use them for grinding. However I am concerned for players that aren't as lucky as I am. I want to see this made right in case it happens again in the future. They used to hand out recons whenever a player was affected, if you have Int as a Super Stat you are most likely affected, that's all we're asking. If I have a toon that doesn't have Int as a stat then I don't need a recon.
Technically Str and Ego are nerfed, it's called Soft cap. Then throw in some Diminishing returns up the wazoo, free form or otherwise so....
Right, but let's suppose they said "A lot of people are using Str and Con, so let's reduce the usefulness of swole and juggernaut so they feel this is no longer the optimal combination."
Is it likely? Maybe not, but they seem more interested in nerfing to make everything mundane then the giving attributes a boost. Take endurance (please!). Who the hell takes endurance as a primary super stat? Heck I almost never take it as a secondary. Giving that attribute a boost might change the meta quicker then nerfing everything else till it's down to it's level. Giving powers, like aura of clarity, a boost might have made that more viable for CDR then nerfing gear and intelligence. I do think that the nerf was probably justified on some level but it seems everything is nerfed and nothing has been boosted since maybe on alert.
Hey, I have 8 on STO and had 8 on NW.
OK I ave trouble making up my mind, which to play
can you make the tokens tradeable? None of my 110+ level 40's will need it, including the ones I use for farming. So I'll be able to give mine to someone else.
ON stats, the only characters i have with End, rec or int as SS's(either type) are AT's and 1 FF which was levelled without gear.
yes. Because God knows you can't pay for retcons with G. OH WAIT.
*Snip* You know DCUO offers retrains for InGame Currency as well? And much like here, it's cheap. So no one cares if they have to pay for one. And as a community who likes to complain that the game is dying and on its last threads, you people sure don't seem like you want to fix that.
I've said it before and I'll probably keep saying it. The game is changing. From where I sit, it looks like we're moving from a Subscription based game to a more cash store based game. It's one reason that I decided to just stay Silver. And again, I think they want to take Champions to Xbox and/or Playstation. Games on those platforms usually rely on a cashstore to make $$$.
On the plus side - it means we're getting development and attention. The downside, we're getting development and attention
Just going to ride this out and see where it ends up.
As far as retcons go. Yes, it's a bit of grind. But there are lots of ways to earn in-game currency. Which includes playing the market, running smashes, etc. I'm not saying I'm 100% for the way the retcons are being issued. But it's not like you won't be able to retcon at all.
9/24/2015 Release Notes
- Westside Onslaught Agent moved deeper into Westside.
- Changed range of Hermes Turrets to match max Supervillain attack range.
This sucks. Now I cannot find anyone......no villains and no heroes. At least before we had a reliable spot to go fight each other. This completely messed up Onslaught...was not doable at all today.
I had no trouble. I just yelled out in zone where I was.
And when I went to the new location for the vendor there was already a group there.
This sucks. Now I cannot find anyone......no villains and no heroes. At least before we had a reliable spot to go fight each other. This completely messed up Onslaught...was not doable at all today.
The patch has nothing to do with why this content is tanking in participation. The monetization is why.
Cryptic put in a double grind for the new loot. Full grind: play hero for hero token to unlock villain device. Use villain device to get villain token for loot. Add in shortcuts to skip half the icky grind by spending money. FFs get 1 daily villain. Perm devices in New lockbox. Can activate with Questions. Earn villain tokens by killing npcs. Villain daily can be done without ever fighting a hero. Remove reason to ever bother playing hero because double grind sucks a--. No heroes means no fights. Onslaught is now a daily and done event.
It's only going to get worse.
How to fix: Villains and heroes get the same tokens. If you get a free daily, you can get tokens for loot. If your device runs out or you are defeated, you can keep gaining tokens for loot by playing the hero. Perm devices have a cool down instead of a token activation cost. You can play a villain for 15 minutes for token. Device goes on cooldown for 30 min. You can play as a hero for 30 min for tokens. There is a reason for playing both sides. The event stops being a daily and done loot grind.
The patch has nothing to do with why this content is tanking in participation.
No, it clearly does, because there's nothing else that would have changed to reduce participation by that much that fast. That said, it does need need incentives for heroes to show up.
If I see a solitary OV wandering around the city, I have no coherent reason to attack: I probably can't beat him within a 15 minute timer, and even if I could, 50 tokens for a 15 minute grind is worthless (I can get 500Q faster than that). It takes around five heroes before attacking the villain is a sensible choice, and even that is making the assumption that hero tokens are valuable, which they mostly aren't. Also, the heroes have to actually get out there and fight, not block-spam or hug the turret.
That needs a several part fix.
First of all, the rate of gain of onslaught tokens should only be based on what you (or your team) does; you have to actually get out there, fight the villain, and risk being defeated, and as long as you do your part, you'll get tokens at an acceptable rate. The easiest test for actually going out there and fighting is by counting damage done, though that marginalizes support (or, if team damage is tracked, means support needs to team). A time-based solution is also possible, but needs to measure activity in some way.
Secondly, we need either unified tokens, or token conversion; strictly playing the hero should be an option. Somewhere around 10:1 is probably accurate for relative difficulty at the current numbers.
Third, it needs to be easier for OVs and heroes to find one another. I'd put the OVs on the map (similar to how hostile player show up if you have minimap radius).
The event needs an event, to be honest. It needs to give the Villains a reason to turn up somewhere regularly, so that the heroes can find them. We already have random in-zone events like Bank Robberies, so why not make the Onslaught targets work like that?
Every hour there's an opportunity for the Villains to pull of a heist/rob a convoy etc, at one of the Onslaught targets. To win the maximum reward, they have to defend that particular zone until the timer runs out. There are points for completing the mission, defeating heroes, and also for the heroes who try and defeat them. It would a cross between an alert and an open mission; just more flexible and player driven. Then you add things to fix the PVP problems - allow villains to spawn minions, knock down vehicles (n.b.: Occasionally) - and the odd bit of extra defence (more Until Defenders) and maybe a subplot (B-list hero to take out/keep alive) and you have... fun, I guess.
No, it clearly does, because there's nothing else that would have changed to reduce participation by that much that fast. That said, it does need need incentives for heroes to show up.
The Hero faction was already in the toilet before the patch. On the live stream, there were a bunch of people playing by the prison. In Westside 3 no less. Most of the action always happened in Westside 1 and rarely spilled over into the other two. Either a large group of people decided to switch to 3 or Westside 1 was full. If all of those people figured it out, I'm sure plenty of other did as well. If anything, the patch sped up the rate of people giving up on the hero side because nothing actually changed.
Also, the heroes have to actually get out there and fight, not block-spam or hug the turret.
When you have 5+ villains all blowing their big aoe attacks in succession, of course heroes are going to block. When a hero is focused on by multiple villains, of course they're going to block. Many of the villain attacks are very powerful, of course blocking is going to happen. What? Should they just sit there like Villain Token pinatas? We already have those with the Onslaught NPCs.
First of all, the rate of gain of onslaught tokens should only be based on what you (or your team) does; you have to actually get out there, fight the villain, and risk being defeated, and as long as you do your part, you'll get tokens at an acceptable rate.
There is no "risk" of being defeated as a hero; it is a guaranteed outcome. Especially as the hero faction has dwindled significantly in a single week. 20 pity tokens for being a villain punching bag to grind for tokens to grind for different tokens isn't a convincing reason to bother.
Who cares if they fix the turrets, fix the repels, fix villain power levels? There's NO reason to play the hero because Cryptic made sure that playing the villain was the only choice for getting loot. And they gave villains a daily that can be done without ever attacking heroes. The double grind was intentional to push sales one way or another. All that really happened is destroying their own content.
The piss poor monitizing of this content is the largest issue. Until Cryptic stops shooting themselves in the foot by driving people away with their horrid double grind to push sales, nothing they "fix" will make players want to bother being a hero. Damn shame because the first few days of chaotic brawls was awesome. Before people figured out that playing the hero was a waste of time and sucked.
When you have 5+ villains all blowing their big aoe attacks in succession, of course heroes are going to block. When a hero is focused on by multiple villains, of course they're going to block.
There is a difference between "blocking" and "doing nothing but blocking". The first is fine, the second not so much.
Should they just sit there like Villain Token pinatas?
The requirement for "it makes sense to play as a hero" is "will get a reasonable number of tokens, and those tokens are worth having". The requirement for "it makes sense to play as a villain" is the same.
This does, in fact, involve heroes being villain piñatas, and villains being hero piñatas. It also means that hero tokens need to be worth having, which at the moment they mostly aren't.
Given what a grind (or wait) it is to get a sole villain token, it's rather dirty that a turret can chew through 75% of their health at all, nevermind without any warning. Now they can do it from even further away.
Isn't the point of the turrets to discourage villains from being near where they're posted? I think wasting someone's villain token for something that will often be accidental is a really bad design call.
Make turrets knockback instead of damage. Send them halfway across the map. We have the technology. ONLY PLAYERS should be killing villains.
well the turrets near the new westside vendor are on the other side of a wall. So you won't be going near them unless you jump in the prison yard. There's plenty of road and buildings there to fight on .
well the turrets near the new westside vendor are on the other side of a wall. So you won't be going near them unless you jump in the prison yard. There's plenty of road and buildings there to fight on .
There is minefield of turrets all over the city. Can you tell me you know where each and every one is? You have to walk on eggshells.
Before the update, this was why I played supervillains near Westside during the initial release of Onslaught content; I was familiar with where the turrets were, with where I could safely go without having my daily token ruined, and I knew other players could be found there.
Now, good luck finding people to play with because no one wants the hassle.
Most of the turrets don't work as they are suppose to right now, last night there were a pair of gronds fighting near one in ren center, the only time it began firing is when the players used Gronds aoe and the turret took damage.
Moving the vendor also did very little to dissuade spawn camping. Since aoes and passives still flag players this is something that should be addressed quickly.
Here's a thought: Why not have dedicated Onslaught zone without turrets that you actively have to join to play Onslaught. You wouldn't have low level toons, fresh out of the tutorial, getting ganged up on, and folks could rampage anywhere they wanted. Might be a better solution then turrets everywhere.
I tried that. It was dead. There were two or three other people sometimes, and they avoided me, probably to keep me from feeling farmed. When there was an odd number, it looked like they took turns dueling. Nobody talked, even outside of the match.
Here's a thought: Why not have dedicated Onslaught zone without turrets that you actively have to join to play Onslaught. You wouldn't have low level toons, fresh out of the tutorial, getting ganged up on, and folks could rampage anywhere they wanted. Might be a better solution then turrets everywhere.
Oooh, like oRvR lakes in Warhammer Online? It's not like there aren't plenty of areas in MC that are empty and can be re-appropriated.
I'll be honest, never played any PvP, I queued a few times but nothing ever popped. What I was thinking was just a zone, like any other open map, that had Onslaught on it. Your basic MC zone only number it O1 and maybe color it differently, red or blue, so people can tell it's different at a glance, and make switching into an Onslaught zone as easy as switching to any other zone (no queues or anything) but never plop people into an Onslaught zone automatically. That way everyone who wants to run Onslaught needn't be wary of "wreaking n00bs" as everyone in that instance choose to be there. You wouldn't need the turrets, except maybe around respawn points (you need to give defeated characters time to activate their forms and travel powers), and you could fight villains anywhere.
Icewind dale in NW has a PvP area, it has a big blue fence around it and when you get close it tells you that if you enter the zone, you will be flagged for PvP.
Well again, that's not exactly what I'm suggesting, I was thinking you could have an entire zone. I don't think PvP onslaught areas is good for the community in this case. What I mean is, if I'm playing a villain I don't want to get hemmed into small corners of the map, if I'm new to the game I don't want to get mashed flat as my first experience out of the tutorial, and some of these concerns with knocks, getting pulled into turrets, and turrets not functioning would be less of a concern in a zone completely dedicated to PvP. Also, I think it would be an easy way to gauge Onslaught's success as the number of people in the Onslaught zone would be a sign of how many players are interested in Onslaught.
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It sure is a good thing I didn't give a **** about these changes and never designed any of my toons that use INT around total CDR utilization or I'd probably be pretty salty. Considering I've got like 40 level 40 toons now, and a chunk of them do have INT chosen as a stat.
Again with more "hyperbole" just for silverspar (because I secretly love you): Phantasy Star Online 2 gives out a permanent, free all skill tree reset pass literally every single time SEGA changes even a single thing in any of the skill trees, even ones you haven't gained any XP in. For every character on an account, and the tokens are account bound rather than character bound at that.
(Have fun researching all that in japanese btw.)
Snark never dies.
On a side note: I'm not angry and I hope my tone doesn't sound overly harsh right now. I understand the reasoning behind the change and honestly there's only a few characters of mine that this is going to adversely affect, and I don't use them for grinding. However I am concerned for players that aren't as lucky as I am. I want to see this made right in case it happens again in the future. They used to hand out recons whenever a player was affected, if you have Int as a Super Stat you are most likely affected, that's all we're asking. If I have a toon that doesn't have Int as a stat then I don't need a recon.
Is it likely? Maybe not, but they seem more interested in nerfing to make everything mundane then the giving attributes a boost. Take endurance (please!). Who the hell takes endurance as a primary super stat? Heck I almost never take it as a secondary. Giving that attribute a boost might change the meta quicker then nerfing everything else till it's down to it's level. Giving powers, like aura of clarity, a boost might have made that more viable for CDR then nerfing gear and intelligence. I do think that the nerf was probably justified on some level but it seems everything is nerfed and nothing has been boosted since maybe on alert.
OK I ave trouble making up my mind, which to play
can you make the tokens tradeable? None of my 110+ level 40's will need it, including the ones I use for farming. So I'll be able to give mine to someone else.
ON stats, the only characters i have with End, rec or int as SS's(either type) are AT's and 1 FF which was levelled without gear.
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On the plus side - it means we're getting development and attention. The downside, we're getting development and attention
Just going to ride this out and see where it ends up.
As far as retcons go. Yes, it's a bit of grind. But there are lots of ways to earn in-game currency. Which includes playing the market, running smashes, etc. I'm not saying I'm 100% for the way the retcons are being issued. But it's not like you won't be able to retcon at all.
I had no trouble. I just yelled out in zone where I was.
And when I went to the new location for the vendor there was already a group there.
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Cryptic put in a double grind for the new loot.
Full grind: play hero for hero token to unlock villain device. Use villain device to get villain token for loot.
Add in shortcuts to skip half the icky grind by spending money.
FFs get 1 daily villain. Perm devices in New lockbox. Can activate with Questions.
Earn villain tokens by killing npcs. Villain daily can be done without ever fighting a hero.
Remove reason to ever bother playing hero because double grind sucks a--.
No heroes means no fights.
Onslaught is now a daily and done event.
It's only going to get worse.
How to fix:
Villains and heroes get the same tokens.
If you get a free daily, you can get tokens for loot. If your device runs out or you are defeated, you can keep gaining tokens for loot by playing the hero.
Perm devices have a cool down instead of a token activation cost. You can play a villain for 15 minutes for token. Device goes on cooldown for 30 min. You can play as a hero for 30 min for tokens.
There is a reason for playing both sides.
The event stops being a daily and done loot grind.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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If I see a solitary OV wandering around the city, I have no coherent reason to attack: I probably can't beat him within a 15 minute timer, and even if I could, 50 tokens for a 15 minute grind is worthless (I can get 500Q faster than that). It takes around five heroes before attacking the villain is a sensible choice, and even that is making the assumption that hero tokens are valuable, which they mostly aren't. Also, the heroes have to actually get out there and fight, not block-spam or hug the turret.
That needs a several part fix.
First of all, the rate of gain of onslaught tokens should only be based on what you (or your team) does; you have to actually get out there, fight the villain, and risk being defeated, and as long as you do your part, you'll get tokens at an acceptable rate. The easiest test for actually going out there and fighting is by counting damage done, though that marginalizes support (or, if team damage is tracked, means support needs to team). A time-based solution is also possible, but needs to measure activity in some way.
Secondly, we need either unified tokens, or token conversion; strictly playing the hero should be an option. Somewhere around 10:1 is probably accurate for relative difficulty at the current numbers.
Third, it needs to be easier for OVs and heroes to find one another. I'd put the OVs on the map (similar to how hostile player show up if you have minimap radius).
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Every hour there's an opportunity for the Villains to pull of a heist/rob a convoy etc, at one of the Onslaught targets. To win the maximum reward, they have to defend that particular zone until the timer runs out. There are points for completing the mission, defeating heroes, and also for the heroes who try and defeat them. It would a cross between an alert and an open mission; just more flexible and player driven. Then you add things to fix the PVP problems - allow villains to spawn minions, knock down vehicles (n.b.: Occasionally) - and the odd bit of extra defence (more Until Defenders) and maybe a subplot (B-list hero to take out/keep alive) and you have... fun, I guess.
Alerts: Vigilance is not giving double Q, like the other Alerts do this double Q week.
It would have been nice for Alerts: Vigilance to be included along with the other alerts.
Who cares if they fix the turrets, fix the repels, fix villain power levels? There's NO reason to play the hero because Cryptic made sure that playing the villain was the only choice for getting loot. And they gave villains a daily that can be done without ever attacking heroes. The double grind was intentional to push sales one way or another. All that really happened is destroying their own content.
The piss poor monitizing of this content is the largest issue. Until Cryptic stops shooting themselves in the foot by driving people away with their horrid double grind to push sales, nothing they "fix" will make players want to bother being a hero. Damn shame because the first few days of chaotic brawls was awesome. Before people figured out that playing the hero was a waste of time and sucked.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
This does, in fact, involve heroes being villain piñatas, and villains being hero piñatas. It also means that hero tokens need to be worth having, which at the moment they mostly aren't.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Isn't the point of the turrets to discourage villains from being near where they're posted? I think wasting someone's villain token for something that will often be accidental is a really bad design call.
Make turrets knockback instead of damage. Send them halfway across the map. We have the technology. ONLY PLAYERS should be killing villains.
I get that there needs to be punishment but...now that OSV's are repel and interrupt immune...this may not be an issue any more.
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There is minefield of turrets all over the city. Can you tell me you know where each and every one is? You have to walk on eggshells.
Before the update, this was why I played supervillains near Westside during the initial release of Onslaught content; I was familiar with where the turrets were, with where I could safely go without having my daily token ruined, and I knew other players could be found there.
Now, good luck finding people to play with because no one wants the hassle.
Moving the vendor also did very little to dissuade spawn camping. Since aoes and passives still flag players this is something that should be addressed quickly.
A picture of someone using Grond, standing over one of the turrets near the Power House. Only started to fire when it was attacked.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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