You can do that in heroic gear too. That is more a problem with certain powers/devices and blocking well than with gear.
That's a separate issue. Once those problems get fixed then sure let's bring in an extra 66 points or other gear or whatever. However, for this coming patch, we should not be introducing this much extra power.
Because if those other problems take their sweet time getting fixed then they'll have to nerf this gear down.
There is no reason you should be handling power creep issues with more mechanics - that is exponentially increasing the complexity of what is going on. You will have new issues arise with THOSE mechanics and in general you should not introduce something new to something else that has a problem.
There is a pretty basic rule of design: You don't implement new code or design that overwrites the output of existing code and designs to get your desired result - you fix your original design. If you are focusing on accounting for all the permutations of builds, then I can see why you think the game is broken and cannot be fixed. What should instead happen is what devs are doing and did when they implemented a CDR nerf - make stats perform in a range that can be scaled up to a certain threshold.
That isn't really the issue here though. The issue people have is that Onslaught gear scales performance up to level that surpasses any available content. This is already a problem with existing gear. So the request is either 1) They bring its performance in line with existing gear at the very least or 2) Make content that is appropriate to the performance people get out of the gear.
I guarantee that if they said, "Well actually there will be all this new content that will be much harder than anything in the game right now" people would welcome onslaught gear as being an improvement over existing gear. But barring that, and from what we know now, it doesn't make sense for it to increase performance of players anymore than what they are at. But because it also makes no sense to have gear identical to existing gear, that is why everyone wants a sidegrade. Because newer does not always have to be better - in fact that is a bad idea. New items for players to acquire should only be introduced if they give ways to new gameplay or more customization. Sometimes that IS better armor: You need to be stronger for this new content for example. But think about if that was the philosophy in other games? Here is a new Gun for Call of Duty - and it does more damage than all other guns. Here is a new car for Forza - and it is faster and handles better than all other cars. Here is a new character for Street Fighter and they are stronger than all the other fighters. But, if they had a reason, say they introduced new cars in forza because they were opening new tracks for them - then improved items are fine because they open up new avenues of gameplay.
Onslaught gear is a good idea because it introduces new gameplay approaches for players - for example, be a durable tank and don't worry about damage as much because you can get a gear that will boost your threat. But it is performing too highly in the PTS at the moment making it better than what everyone has but for no reason.
Te reason is "so Joe Sixpack Gamer considers it worth playing the content to grind for."
Joe Sixpack Gamer: "Hey what secondary gear should I get?" What is your build Joe? Joe Sixpack Gamer: "I'm a tank using Force Cascade. I wanna hold aggro for my team though" You should get the onslaught gear for cost discount and the defense gear for threat gen, Joe Joe Sixpack Gamer: "I also have high crit severity but my crit chance isn't that high" Well vigilante critical belt will increase your crit chance, Joe Joe Sixpack Gamer: "Thank you. I'm going to go work on my sixpack by fighting some super villains."
^This is much more ideal than answering:
GET ALL ONSLAUGHT. IT IS THE BEST. Joe Sixpack Gamer: "How about vigilante gear? Is that stuff any good?" NO WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT GEAR ANYMORE. I ONLY PUT IT ON ALTS I DON'T PLAY LULZ
What we're talking about is the power difference between a suped up Freeform and the average AT player. We had original primary gear for onslaught that was just fine as it was. It wasn't overpowered, it worked fine, and was on the level of Justice gear.
But that wasn't good enough for some people. So the onslaught gear got nerfed into oblivion.
Of course that created a problem. For the average player Onslaught gear wasn't really worth the effort to grind for.
So the devs decided to (based on player suggestion) to make the secondary gear modable. Now apparently that's too much for some.
Yes, if you're on your overpowered freeform with rank 7 mods and justice gear, the new gear is OP. But let's face it, those type of players are ALL READY OVERPOWERED. That's the sort of player who solos Vikorin on elite and stands toe-to-toe with OV's while taking a nap at the keyboard.
For those players, having more power, doesn't really matter. Because all the content in the game is already too easy for them.
Then we have everyone else. Either people who don't care to have optimized freeforms, or silver AT players. In their hands, this new gear helps them greatly.
But by all means, lets nerf the gear because of a minority of players. Instead, of allowing the majority players to have access to better gear.
The other option (which will never happen) is for the devs to take a cold hard look at freeforms - and realize things have gone too far. In fact, they've gone far enough that introducing new levels of gear doesn't really make a tangible difference. Those builds are so OP they've reached the point of no return.
The problem isn't the gear. The problem is Freeform being an "all benefits" no penalties system. Which leads to non-freeform players being punished, because of fears of Freeform becoming too powerful.
Well here's a newsflash. Freeform is already too powerful. In fact, it's powerful enough that adding more power to them doesn't even really matter. It's like pumping gas into a tank that's already full. You're just getting overflow at that point.
Well here's a newsflash. Freeform is already too powerful. In fact, it's powerful enough that adding more power to them doesn't even really matter. It's like pumping gas into a tank that's already full. You're just getting overflow at that point.
It does matter, and here's why: The players that are Freeform and have the best gear and best builds are, a lot of the time, the people who give feedback on difficulty of content on PTS. Your tank may fill up at 5 gallons, but the heavily optimized guys fill up at 15, and they're taking all that to PTS and setting the standard of difficulty for things like Mechanon and Forum Malvanum.
It's not overflow. Those power levels have an impact, and it shows. When the developers are looking for feedback on difficulty, and they're only getting feedback from the optimized freeforms, it turns into content that should be barred from anyone that isn't "keyed for Rampages". But since the game doesn't have a clear gear and content progression, everyone who's level 40 is allowed to get into any content and some find it way too difficult and others find it adequate.
I'd honestly have no problem with gear and content progression as long as it was clear-cut. But it's not. And you can't balance content with a wacky system like we have unless you specifically gate stuff and tell people who's allowed to play it and who isn't.
And then the big problem is: Champions wants most of its content to be available to everyone. They've been pushing for this forever. It was only through a massive outcry of player feedback that Lemurian Invasion was level gated because they wanted like, anyone to be able to queue for it. The high-level players want to be able to do this only with peers, but Cryptic wants it to be all-inclusive because barring low-level players from new content doesn't bring in more money.
Sorry, kinda rambling here, but there's proof that having such a big and varied power level between characters can have an impact on the game, and it's not just overflow.
Still ignoring the fact that the Gear will be not easily obtainable since they are locked behind Villain Token! it's 15.000 Tokens for a full set for crying out loud! I wouldn't mind if they raise the prices, since currently this gear worth all the prices
Except if you already found an Exploit for quick Villain Tokens
One thing you need to Balance is the EFFORT and the REWARDS, something which CO NEVER did right with all that RNG! (see RNG-Satan in Rampages and in Quest for Justice)
God you are Hopeless, if you think that Power Creep is CO's Biggest problem, I have news for you.
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Still ignoring the fact that the Gear will be not easily obtainable since they are locked behind Villain Token! it's 15.000 Tokens for a full set for crying out loud!
Yeah...that's not particularly hard. Organized farming can get it pretty efficiently in about two character-weeks per piece, less efficiently faster.
Still ignoring the fact that the Gear will be not easily obtainable since they are locked behind Villain Token! it's 15.000 Tokens for a full set for crying out loud! I would mind if they raise the prices, since currently this gear worth all the prices
Except if you already found an Exploit for quick Villain Tokens
Not gonna lie, within...3 days after Onslaught hit LIVE I already had 5,544 Villain Tokens. I just used Medusa and killed a lot of players and some UNTIL Defenders. And yes, I did multiple runs.
Te reason is "so Joe Sixpack Gamer considers it worth playing the content to grind for."
Joe Sixpack Gamer: "Hey what secondary gear should I get?" What is your build Joe? Joe Sixpack Gamer: "I'm a tank using Force Cascade. I wanna hold aggro for my team though"
A Force Cascade tank isn't Joe Six Pack. That's a Gold Subscriber Freeform player using a great build that does both decent DPS and tanking. The real Joe Six Pack is playing a Behemoth or a Glacier. His crit chance is god awful and his ability to hold aggro is poor. He's lucky if he has heroic gear and rank 5 mods. For that player Onslaught gear is a game changer.
It's not overflow. Those power levels have an impact, and it shows. When the developers are looking for feedback on difficulty, and they're only getting feedback from the optimized freeforms, it turns into content that should be barred from anyone that isn't "keyed for Rampages". But since the game doesn't have a clear gear and content progression, everyone who's level 40 is allowed to get into any content and some find it way too difficult and others find it adequate.
And that is 100% the problem with PTS only being accessible to Gold Subscribers. The only players the Dev team is hearing from are those with optimal builds. I've played with many of you or watched some of you play. I have to admit if I'm on F&I or Gravitar and I see forumites on the team, I breathe a sigh of relief. You guys have great builds, know what you're doing, and can handle the content.
But your builds in most cases are top-notch Freeform builds with best ranked gear. You're not the guy/gal who just leveled up a Blade or a Devastator only to find out it's completely useless in many of the rampages. You're not the player who realizes that their going to have to jump through hoops to get gear and mods, because they have a resource cap.
It's obvious that OV gear was originally designed to be PRIMARY gear. That was a boon to AT/Silver players because it opened the door to earn higher level gear. Many AT's just can't contribute to the Rampages effectively enough to really want to play them. Sure some AT's can be tweaked to not suck totally in a Ramapage - but most are SOL.
But no. FF players were worried it devalued their Rampage gear. So with little to no input from AT/Silvers that gear was nerfed into secondaries without stats.
Onslaught is an activity that AT's can participate in - without feeling totally useless. It doesn't matter how often you die in the AOE's. Taking down the OV is a group effort and everyone gets a reward - that's perfect. And if you're piloting an OV, you're don't need a special build. The OV is already pre-built for you.
Modable Onslaught secondaries, would be a very nice power upgrade for AT's. I don't really give a wit about the small minority of players who are already unkillable dps monsters. They don't represent the average player.
But some of you have become so used to being OP, you think everyone else is. Or your idea of the percentage of players who have achieved the same level of power is grossly inflated.
This is gonna make the problems with STR/CON/INT way worse and put single stat stacking onto an entirely new level. <_< It's like what the offense boost from justice did to vigi warden... It's +90 to what you can currently put into CON with purple secondary's using STR primary... That's insane.
+1350 hp from if you used this over 3 CON purples before you even add in the crit severity and defense then calculate the defense to offense to defense to omgfixthispleaseyou'remakingitworse.
You can do that in heroic gear too. That is more a problem with certain powers/devices and blocking well than with gear.
That's a separate issue. Once those problems get fixed then sure let's bring in an extra 66 points or other gear or whatever. However, for this coming patch, we should not be introducing this much extra power.
Because if those other problems take their sweet time getting fixed then they'll have to nerf this gear down.
They'll have to fix the problem powers/mechanics either way. Those are not suddenly becoming problems with a few added stat points, but have been problems for a long time that are made a bit more obvious with Onslaught. If the choice is not to bother with those, I agree with the people claiming any form of balance is not worth considering for the top end builds. I wouldn't like that choice and I don't think it's really needed, there are quite a few low hanging fruits. Even just changing a few overperforming advantages would already make a huge difference.
So in my opinion either the overperforming powers/mechanics get changed and the new gear is not a problem, or the balance problems are not really worth considering and the new gear is not a problem.
Still ignoring the fact that the Gear will be not easily obtainable since they are locked behind Villain Token! it's 15.000 Tokens for a full set for crying out loud!
Yeah...that's not particularly hard. Organized farming can get it pretty efficiently in about two character-weeks per piece, less efficiently faster.
I am already closing in on 10k villain tokens and its just been a little over a week now. So yea, this isn't hard. And I am basically being casual as hell. I might use an OV twice in one day. And the rest of the day I do other things.
Ah yes "power creep". We have dismissed those claims.
You have dismissed them, only because you are trying really hard to make believe that Power Creep isn't real. Yea, it's very much a demonstrable effect in game. AT versus freeform, the level 6 versus the level 40 uber content, the fresh 40 versus the well geared super 40, hell just super tanks in general in game. But do keep saying that power creep doesn't exist.
The ultimate proof that power creep is a thing; the fact that the Onslaught Villains had to be buffed up to do ridiculous damage to compete with players. Putting the ATs on test would not have changed this fact.
But as I said, do keep saying and pretending power creep isn't real.
Ah yes "power creep". We have dismissed those claims.
Just read some stuff back and nope I don't see any definitive dismissal. There is no doubt that being able to single stat even better now on your secondary super stats causes current problems with balance to become even worse.
A Force Cascade tank isn't Joe Six Pack. That's a Gold Subscriber Freeform player using a great build that does both decent DPS and tanking. The real Joe Six Pack is playing a Behemoth or a Glacier. His crit chance is god awful and his ability to hold aggro is poor. He's lucky if he has heroic gear and rank 5 mods. For that player Onslaught gear is a game changer.
But your builds in most cases are top-notch Freeform builds with best ranked gear. You're not the guy/gal who just leveled up a Blade or a Devastator only to find out it's completely useless in many of the rampages. You're not the player who realizes that their going to have to jump through hoops to get gear and mods, because they have a resource cap.
It's obvious that OV gear was originally designed to be PRIMARY gear. That was a boon to AT/Silver players because it opened the door to earn higher level gear. Many AT's just can't contribute to the Rampages effectively enough to really want to play them. Sure some AT's can be tweaked to not suck totally in a Ramapage - but most are SOL.
Modable Onslaught secondaries, would be a very nice power upgrade for AT's. I don't really give a wit about the small minority of players who are already unkillable dps monsters. They don't represent the average player.
Lol, what? I farmed up tokens for an entire justice set before I owned a single FF slot. I even used a behemoth to frosty tank and kept aggro. Hell, I took a marksman into Grav all the time and did fine. I picked up the gold cap increase with questionite to Zen. I said, as a filthy silver, that onslaught gear shouldn't be a direct upgrade to justice and it wasn't to spite poor unfortunate ATs.
WRONG! Balance is not subjective, balance is quantifiable.
There are other games for 'challenge'. You know, those things you play when you're in the mood for something besides Champions?
Ah this old excuse, the one that demonstrates you rather Champions die in obscurity than actually become something great. And people say I don't have proof that this player base is the ones that are constantly destroying this game.
There are several very good posts above that show why balance-chasing is a complete waste of time.
Ah you mean conjecture and theories without one iota of fact, and many of which have also been proven wrong. It's a bold faced lie. If people believe balance chasing is a waste of time, then they are part of the problem, not the solution. Because your idea of balance means that the super villains in this game should always be one shotting people instead of the content being fair all around. I look forward to those days when you start whining because the new content is only playable by people on the super end of the spectrum with the one build.
And I am sure you will, because in order for the devs, from this point forward, to balance new content properly, it will have to have the challenge set for what will be the new super tank builds.
But some of you have become so used to being OP, you think everyone else is. Or your idea of the percentage of players who have achieved the same level of power is grossly inflated.
I hope you're using "you" in a general sense and not directing specifically at me because I've never had a super-optimized character and I give up villain tokens like I'm a piñata because I die often against onslaught villains.
I already had 5,544 Villain Tokens. I just used Medusa ... And yes, I did multiple runs.
I only do Onslaught once every other day. Since inception, I have 1800 villain tokens. I'm quite far from having three Onslaught secondaries, especially since I want to unlock the new powers first. The only reason I do it at all is because I get a free play every day. Most people will have to do some kind of farming to get their daily play, nevermind the back-to-back Villain plays you're insinuating.
I already had 5,544 Villain Tokens. I just used Medusa ... And yes, I did multiple runs.
I only do Onslaught once every other day. Since inception, I have 1800 villain tokens. I'm quite far from having three Onslaught secondaries, especially since I want to unlock the new powers first. The only reason I do it at all is because I get a free play every day. Most people will have to do some kind of farming to get their daily play, nevermind the back-to-back Villain plays you're insinuating.
You're the rare exception, not the rule.
Hahahhahahha. Uh, no she's not. I only play a villain twice a day now for the past week, and only twice if I did not finish the kill 3 onslaught targets. I have over 6k. Sorry, Voyager, you're the exception to this little party.
I had originally just planned to get the AFs and powers since I had no interest in the gear. If the gear were side grades I would have done piecemeal on a case by case. But since the gear is very obviously upgrades, well if I put a bit of extra time in, I know I can have all 3 pieces by the time this launches next Thursday, if it launches next Thursday.
I only do Onslaught once every other day. Since inception, I have 1800 villain tokens. I'm quite far from having three Onslaught secondaries, especially since I want to unlock the new powers first. The only reason I do it at all is because I get a free play every day. Most people will have to do some kind of farming to get their daily play, nevermind the back-to-back Villain plays you're insinuating.
You're at 1,800 tokens after 9 days, and you've spent a bit over an hour of play time being a villain. It's probably a total of 3 game-hours to acquire an item of gear. Your play time is comparable to running about five Alert dailies for 10,000Q. Thus, in terms of effort, this gear is equivalent to about 30,000Q per item; on an effort basis, it should be inferior to Vigilante gear. "Oh, the Effort!" is not a justification for making this gear better.
(1) You can quantify whether it meets a standard. What that standard should be is utterly subejctive. What is 'balanced' in one game is absurdly overpowered in another, and utterly underpowered in another. That there are those who disagree with your 'leet' notion of balance just seems to tear you up, doesn't it?
No, it really isn't. You are making up theories at this point and even in the MMO industry, it is quantifiable what is considered the norm for balance.
(2) The playerbase considers your desires fringe. Go listen to Zone, and see if any but your noisy circle has a single positive thing to say about these latest changes. Look at FM dead and LI loathed because of vanity nerfs to vehicle damage. Dodge enrfs, Kitchen Sink, etc.
Never a good turn or reception. Ever.
This game's playerbase is primarily furpers, buildmonkeys,and comic geeks wanting to play power fantasy. If they wanted the sort of other-game nonsense you keep pushing, they'd be playing those games.
Deal with it.
Oh I do listen to zone, yea they are noisy, but guess what, they aren't quitting either. Really, your evidence is lacking. That's all gamers do is complain.
(3) My gods, you've just gone round the twist. I consider one-shots to be a "banned from working in the industry ever again" level offense. You can't properly address my points so you concoct a delusional strawman to tilt at, and you just proved it with that. You want people to play the content, they need to be motivated. "rewards different but equal to what they've had for years" does not cut it.
Deal with it.
Uh, actually I did properly address your point. You are completely ignoring it and in fact back peddling so much you can't properly address it. You make up facts and conjectures and have so far in this entire thread demonstrating you don't know what you are talking about. Your evidence is not even backed up by facts, it's hyperbole at best.
So in short, the only one going "round the twist" in this debate has been you trying to make up facts, stating your personal theory as gospel, in contradiction to the evidence, and ignoring the plain evidence right in front of you.
This is getting rather out of hand (as if it wasn't before) but to be honest I think the numbers surely show that there is a big issue here, being able to now single stat even higher (which is one of the big things that causes problems) is almost certainly not a good thing.
I question what it is you are even arguing for bluegrassbeast, you aren't really mentioning the change just spewing a lot of junk about being powerful being what everyone wants and nerfs are going to kill the game...
None of us are asking for nerfs we are just saying that adding to the power creep specifically by allowing single stating to get even worse and totally wiping out the usage of vigilante is really not a good thing, you don't really seem to have much of a case against that.
And a fool's pursuit in PvE content. No one makes people build masterfully, or even adequately.
"BUT MAH CHALLENGE!" is the only excuse for not simply taking the approach of setting difficulty to the level that the least-competent build or AT can scrape by. Then if that's not 'tough enough' -the 'challenge gamers' can gimp themselves down or...
There are other games for 'challenge'. You know, those things you play when you're in the mood for something besides Champions?
There are several very good posts above that show why balance-chasing is a complete waste of time.
I'm pretty sure balance is the opposite of being subjective.
I do not understand this logic of, "Regular players don't have great gear like some FF/Gold/Elitist players! Onslaught will give regular players good gear - forget what it does to fully geared players with optimized builds!" If these players don't have good gear, mods, or focus on optimizing their build, what makes you think they'll gain onslaught gear anymore than they did other gear like vigil or justice or R7 mods? The players who will get it first and most often are the ones who already try to get powerful gear and better builds.
Not that I think your average player does not care about their build performance or good gear - there is a reason there is a forum dedicated to builds and powers, and why every MMO has discussions of certain builds and new players asking for help in chat for advice on what specs and advantages to take.
The problem boils down to this: Regular players can get onslaught gear to help their builds, but they can do that many ways besides onslaught if they care to. The downside is ANY PLAYER - silver/gold/min-max/theme build - are going to have the potential to be so overpowered beyond what they already are, they will reach beyond Superman levels of power - and we all know how boring Superman is.
I totally support Lyn's idea of changing the price of onslaught gear too a combination of 3000 Villain tokens and 3000 Guardian tokens (give or take some tokens). This is such a good idea - SUCH a good idea - I'm surprised I did not think of it myself
It would definitely give people a reason to fight against villains more since they'll need those guardian tokens to get their gear, and in turn villains will get more kills and tokens with more players engaging them.
I agree with this; it's already getting very hard to finish the guardian daily, because people don't care about the guardian tokens as it is. That makes getting villains tokens far slower(can't finish the playing both sides mission).
This gives people a reason to play against the villains.
Suggestion repost (so @ladygadfly sees it for sure!): Please change the price of onslaught gear to a combination of 3000 Villain tokens and 3000 Guardian tokens (give or take some tokens). It would definitely give people a reason to fight against villains and participate in content more often. Currently, there is little incentive to play as a hero, especially for subscribers who can play as a villain once a day already.
They just nerfed CDR for helping create OP heroes. If secondaries capable of slotting R9s go live how long will it be before they are nerfed as well? The Devs do nerf over performing aspects of the game. Better to have something moderate that doesn't get nerfed than something OP that will get nerfed (and create even more hard feelings than just starting out moderate).
I'm arguing for the gear to go through exactly as it is, and for the nerf-whiners to be ignored.
Why? It's not on Live yet. Once it is and they nerf it, which they will likely have to regardless of what anyone on the forums says, then things will suck.
You killing the game with your unwanted nerf-whining.
Yes, let's just ignore all the many many people who left the game over the years because it got too easy. Let's cling to the few whiners who cry every time anyone wants to make healthy balance adjustments, or become outright insulting to anyone who even mentions it. That sounds like a great player population that any dev wants to have: a chorus of infants that starts screaming at the top of their lungs anytime their character's invincibility and guaranteed wins are threatened.
Looking at these conversations you're in, where you look like a lone camper being assaulted by a pack of wolves from all angles... looking at the conversations in zone where one or two people whine incessantly until everyone puts them on ignore... looking at all the stories of people who think this game is a joke because there's no challenge in it... I get the feeling it's your camp that's the fringe group.
When was the last time someone quit this game because it was "too hard"? ...when was the last time someone was actually willing to admit that?
I'll just throw this out there but it honestly seems like it's just become you causing a ruckus taking to personal attacks on people. So you are all for it to stay as it is... Okay sure. Your reason seems to be because you like being able to feel stronger and keep getting stronger? Okay sure. But I think CO is the kind of game where to feel stronger and keep feeling stronger you just have to keep getting better at building and have a stronger and stronger build, I believe that was always the idea.
If the game is in the state it is in that is hard to really do, and making these changes to the gear will only make this worse. The numbers really do not bode well for what you really want, all it is going to mean is more of a need of nerfs to things specifically to how CON has no DR and nothing that works off it has any DR either on specs or things like ego surge...
Just like with justice gear which broke vigi warden that bit more this will break other already broken things slightly more making balance even worse than it already is. I honestly can't see you ever listening to that but I do wonder what you hope to achieve by calling everyone else delusional and being very close to troll level in some of your arguments.
Make the mods that slot into secondaries scale significantly less like 2/3 effectiveness. So 62 would grant about 40 points. Or just make the stats increase all your SS by 15 each.
Otherwise player's Constitution is going to get absolutely insane thus making content harder to balance from the gap between newer players and players that have put time into the game. If content is built around low end HP, high Con will trivialize it. If content is built around high HP, newer players will instantly die. You're making it harder to develop content in the future by being lazy and not fixing the innate stats on this gear.
Make the mods that slot into secondaries scale significantly less like 2/3 effectiveness. So 62 would grant about 40 points. Or just make the stats increase all your SS by 15 each.
Otherwise player's Constitution is going to get absolutely insane thus making content harder to balance from the gap between newer players and players that have put time into the game. If content is built around low end HP, high Con will trivialize it. If content is built around high HP, newer players will instantly die. You're making it harder to develop content in the future by being lazy and not fixing the innate stats on this gear.
It isn't high CON it will be high STR or even EGO.
I totally support Lyn's idea of changing the price of onslaught gear too a combination of 3000 Villain tokens and 3000 Guardian tokens (give or take some tokens). This is such a good idea - SUCH a good idea - I'm surprised I did not think of it myself
It would definitely give people a reason to fight against villains more since they'll need those guardian tokens to get their gear, and in turn villains will get more kills and tokens with more players engaging them.
I agree with this; it's already getting very hard to finish the guardian daily, because people don't care about the guardian tokens as it is. That makes getting villains tokens far slower(can't finish the playing both sides mission).
This gives people a reason to play against the villains.
There are a lot of reasons people have stopped playing the hero side. The cost is one of the reasons I'm ignoring this content. spawn camping/griefing is the other reason. 3,000 of both tokens wouldn't really help in regards of cost. Unless they change how tokens are acquired.
Maybe these things could house utility mods instead. I would like to add depleted uranium core or a perception mod in my 2ndary gear without taking up space in my primary gear.
Future updates could feature more utility mods with role-centric effects or even utility mods that add or interact with certain damage types. This could provide a desirable "side-grade" reward.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Maybe these things could house utility mods instead. I would like to add depleted uranium core or a perception mod in my 2ndary gear without taking up space in my primary gear.
Future updates could feature more utility mods with role-centric effects or even utility mods that add or interact with certain damage types.
This could provide a desirable "side-grade" reward.
I suggest a side grade that makes the gear worthwhile to all players and gives folks a reason to keep playing the Onslaught content months from now. As it is none of the gear I find all that interesting. (And have thus stopped playing onslaught content.) A mod slot should stay, but limit the level of what can be put in there.
I'd even suggest putting Heroics or Vigilante gear in the OStore as an option.
Anything that keeps folks playing/grinding the O content for months to come.
Maybe the daily for Guardian tokens should require more than just 50 tokens to complete. I mean, that is just one villain to take down. Meanwhile the Villain daily has you get 50 tokens plus 3 Onslaught Targets. Can't say it's exactly even.
Maybe the daily for Guardian tokens should require more than just 50 tokens to complete. I mean, that is just one villain to take down. Meanwhile the Villain daily has you get 50 tokens plus 3 Onslaught Targets. Can't say it's exactly even.
its harder
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Admittedly, this is a sample size of one, but out of all the days I've played Onslaught stuff, I've only ever not gotten my 50 Guardian Tokens on days that I forgot about it.
Maybe these things could house utility mods instead. I would like to add depleted uranium core or a perception mod in my 2ndary gear without taking up space in my primary gear.
Future updates could feature more utility mods with role-centric effects or even utility mods that add or interact with certain damage types. This could provide a desirable "side-grade" reward.
One of the reasons people don't find the secondaries appealing right now is the lack of PS or SS stats, your idea doesn't really address this. They should be appealing to as many players as possible. Most of the utility mods aren't interesting enough, (at least not to me), to give up primary stats.
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Because if those other problems take their sweet time getting fixed then they'll have to nerf this gear down.
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There is a pretty basic rule of design: You don't implement new code or design that overwrites the output of existing code and designs to get your desired result - you fix your original design. If you are focusing on accounting for all the permutations of builds, then I can see why you think the game is broken and cannot be fixed. What should instead happen is what devs are doing and did when they implemented a CDR nerf - make stats perform in a range that can be scaled up to a certain threshold.
That isn't really the issue here though. The issue people have is that Onslaught gear scales performance up to level that surpasses any available content. This is already a problem with existing gear. So the request is either 1) They bring its performance in line with existing gear at the very least or 2) Make content that is appropriate to the performance people get out of the gear.
I guarantee that if they said, "Well actually there will be all this new content that will be much harder than anything in the game right now" people would welcome onslaught gear as being an improvement over existing gear. But barring that, and from what we know now, it doesn't make sense for it to increase performance of players anymore than what they are at. But because it also makes no sense to have gear identical to existing gear, that is why everyone wants a sidegrade. Because newer does not always have to be better - in fact that is a bad idea. New items for players to acquire should only be introduced if they give ways to new gameplay or more customization. Sometimes that IS better armor: You need to be stronger for this new content for example. But think about if that was the philosophy in other games? Here is a new Gun for Call of Duty - and it does more damage than all other guns. Here is a new car for Forza - and it is faster and handles better than all other cars. Here is a new character for Street Fighter and they are stronger than all the other fighters. But, if they had a reason, say they introduced new cars in forza because they were opening new tracks for them - then improved items are fine because they open up new avenues of gameplay.
Onslaught gear is a good idea because it introduces new gameplay approaches for players - for example, be a durable tank and don't worry about damage as much because you can get a gear that will boost your threat. But it is performing too highly in the PTS at the moment making it better than what everyone has but for no reason.
What is your build Joe?
Joe Sixpack Gamer: "I'm a tank using Force Cascade. I wanna hold aggro for my team though"
You should get the onslaught gear for cost discount and the defense gear for threat gen, Joe
Joe Sixpack Gamer: "I also have high crit severity but my crit chance isn't that high"
Well vigilante critical belt will increase your crit chance, Joe
Joe Sixpack Gamer: "Thank you. I'm going to go work on my sixpack by fighting some super villains."
^This is much more ideal than answering:
GET ALL ONSLAUGHT. IT IS THE BEST.
Joe Sixpack Gamer: "How about vigilante gear? Is that stuff any good?"
NO WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT GEAR ANYMORE. I ONLY PUT IT ON ALTS I DON'T PLAY LULZ
But that wasn't good enough for some people. So the onslaught gear got nerfed into oblivion.
Of course that created a problem. For the average player Onslaught gear wasn't really worth the effort to grind for.
So the devs decided to (based on player suggestion) to make the secondary gear modable. Now apparently that's too much for some.
Yes, if you're on your overpowered freeform with rank 7 mods and justice gear, the new gear is OP. But let's face it, those type of players are ALL READY OVERPOWERED. That's the sort of player who solos Vikorin on elite and stands toe-to-toe with OV's while taking a nap at the keyboard.
For those players, having more power, doesn't really matter. Because all the content in the game is already too easy for them.
Then we have everyone else. Either people who don't care to have optimized freeforms, or silver AT players. In their hands, this new gear helps them greatly.
But by all means, lets nerf the gear because of a minority of players. Instead, of allowing the majority players to have access to better gear.
The other option (which will never happen) is for the devs to take a cold hard look at freeforms - and realize things have gone too far. In fact, they've gone far enough that introducing new levels of gear doesn't really make a tangible difference. Those builds are so OP they've reached the point of no return.
The problem isn't the gear. The problem is Freeform being an "all benefits" no penalties system. Which leads to non-freeform players being punished, because of fears of Freeform becoming too powerful.
Well here's a newsflash. Freeform is already too powerful. In fact, it's powerful enough that adding more power to them doesn't even really matter. It's like pumping gas into a tank that's already full. You're just getting overflow at that point.
It does matter, and here's why: The players that are Freeform and have the best gear and best builds are, a lot of the time, the people who give feedback on difficulty of content on PTS. Your tank may fill up at 5 gallons, but the heavily optimized guys fill up at 15, and they're taking all that to PTS and setting the standard of difficulty for things like Mechanon and Forum Malvanum.
It's not overflow. Those power levels have an impact, and it shows. When the developers are looking for feedback on difficulty, and they're only getting feedback from the optimized freeforms, it turns into content that should be barred from anyone that isn't "keyed for Rampages". But since the game doesn't have a clear gear and content progression, everyone who's level 40 is allowed to get into any content and some find it way too difficult and others find it adequate.
I'd honestly have no problem with gear and content progression as long as it was clear-cut. But it's not. And you can't balance content with a wacky system like we have unless you specifically gate stuff and tell people who's allowed to play it and who isn't.
And then the big problem is: Champions wants most of its content to be available to everyone. They've been pushing for this forever. It was only through a massive outcry of player feedback that Lemurian Invasion was level gated because they wanted like, anyone to be able to queue for it. The high-level players want to be able to do this only with peers, but Cryptic wants it to be all-inclusive because barring low-level players from new content doesn't bring in more money.
Sorry, kinda rambling here, but there's proof that having such a big and varied power level between characters can have an impact on the game, and it's not just overflow.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Except if you already found an Exploit for quick Villain Tokens
One thing you need to Balance is the EFFORT and the REWARDS, something which CO NEVER did right with all that RNG! (see RNG-Satan in Rampages and in Quest for Justice)
God you are Hopeless, if you think that Power Creep is CO's Biggest problem, I have news for you.
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But your builds in most cases are top-notch Freeform builds with best ranked gear. You're not the guy/gal who just leveled up a Blade or a Devastator only to find out it's completely useless in many of the rampages. You're not the player who realizes that their going to have to jump through hoops to get gear and mods, because they have a resource cap.
It's obvious that OV gear was originally designed to be PRIMARY gear. That was a boon to AT/Silver players because it opened the door to earn higher level gear. Many AT's just can't contribute to the Rampages effectively enough to really want to play them. Sure some AT's can be tweaked to not suck totally in a Ramapage - but most are SOL.
But no. FF players were worried it devalued their Rampage gear. So with little to no input from AT/Silvers that gear was nerfed into secondaries without stats.
Onslaught is an activity that AT's can participate in - without feeling totally useless. It doesn't matter how often you die in the AOE's. Taking down the OV is a group effort and everyone gets a reward - that's perfect. And if you're piloting an OV, you're don't need a special build. The OV is already pre-built for you.
Modable Onslaught secondaries, would be a very nice power upgrade for AT's. I don't really give a wit about the small minority of players who are already unkillable dps monsters. They don't represent the average player.
But some of you have become so used to being OP, you think everyone else is. Or your idea of the percentage of players who have achieved the same level of power is grossly inflated.
+1350 hp from if you used this over 3 CON purples before you even add in the crit severity and defense then calculate the defense to offense to defense to omgfixthispleaseyou'remakingitworse.
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So in my opinion either the overperforming powers/mechanics get changed and the new gear is not a problem, or the balance problems are not really worth considering and the new gear is not a problem.
I am already closing in on 10k villain tokens and its just been a little over a week now. So yea, this isn't hard. And I am basically being casual as hell. I might use an OV twice in one day. And the rest of the day I do other things.
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You have dismissed them, only because you are trying really hard to make believe that Power Creep isn't real. Yea, it's very much a demonstrable effect in game. AT versus freeform, the level 6 versus the level 40 uber content, the fresh 40 versus the well geared super 40, hell just super tanks in general in game. But do keep saying that power creep doesn't exist.
The ultimate proof that power creep is a thing; the fact that the Onslaught Villains had to be buffed up to do ridiculous damage to compete with players. Putting the ATs on test would not have changed this fact.
But as I said, do keep saying and pretending power creep isn't real.
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[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
WRONG! Balance is not subjective, balance is quantifiable.
Ah this old excuse, the one that demonstrates you rather Champions die in obscurity than actually become something great. And people say I don't have proof that this player base is the ones that are constantly destroying this game.
Ah you mean conjecture and theories without one iota of fact, and many of which have also been proven wrong. It's a bold faced lie. If people believe balance chasing is a waste of time, then they are part of the problem, not the solution. Because your idea of balance means that the super villains in this game should always be one shotting people instead of the content being fair all around. I look forward to those days when you start whining because the new content is only playable by people on the super end of the spectrum with the one build.
And I am sure you will, because in order for the devs, from this point forward, to balance new content properly, it will have to have the challenge set for what will be the new super tank builds.
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I only do Onslaught once every other day. Since inception, I have 1800 villain tokens. I'm quite far from having three Onslaught secondaries, especially since I want to unlock the new powers first. The only reason I do it at all is because I get a free play every day. Most people will have to do some kind of farming to get their daily play, nevermind the back-to-back Villain plays you're insinuating.
You're the rare exception, not the rule.
Hahahhahahha. Uh, no she's not. I only play a villain twice a day now for the past week, and only twice if I did not finish the kill 3 onslaught targets. I have over 6k. Sorry, Voyager, you're the exception to this little party.
I had originally just planned to get the AFs and powers since I had no interest in the gear. If the gear were side grades I would have done piecemeal on a case by case. But since the gear is very obviously upgrades, well if I put a bit of extra time in, I know I can have all 3 pieces by the time this launches next Thursday, if it launches next Thursday.
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No, it really isn't. You are making up theories at this point and even in the MMO industry, it is quantifiable what is considered the norm for balance.
Oh I do listen to zone, yea they are noisy, but guess what, they aren't quitting either. Really, your evidence is lacking. That's all gamers do is complain.
Uh, actually I did properly address your point. You are completely ignoring it and in fact back peddling so much you can't properly address it. You make up facts and conjectures and have so far in this entire thread demonstrating you don't know what you are talking about. Your evidence is not even backed up by facts, it's hyperbole at best.
So in short, the only one going "round the twist" in this debate has been you trying to make up facts, stating your personal theory as gospel, in contradiction to the evidence, and ignoring the plain evidence right in front of you.
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I question what it is you are even arguing for bluegrassbeast, you aren't really mentioning the change just spewing a lot of junk about being powerful being what everyone wants and nerfs are going to kill the game...
None of us are asking for nerfs we are just saying that adding to the power creep specifically by allowing single stating to get even worse and totally wiping out the usage of vigilante is really not a good thing, you don't really seem to have much of a case against that.
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I do not understand this logic of, "Regular players don't have great gear like some FF/Gold/Elitist players! Onslaught will give regular players good gear - forget what it does to fully geared players with optimized builds!" If these players don't have good gear, mods, or focus on optimizing their build, what makes you think they'll gain onslaught gear anymore than they did other gear like vigil or justice or R7 mods? The players who will get it first and most often are the ones who already try to get powerful gear and better builds.
Not that I think your average player does not care about their build performance or good gear - there is a reason there is a forum dedicated to builds and powers, and why every MMO has discussions of certain builds and new players asking for help in chat for advice on what specs and advantages to take.
The problem boils down to this: Regular players can get onslaught gear to help their builds, but they can do that many ways besides onslaught if they care to. The downside is ANY PLAYER - silver/gold/min-max/theme build - are going to have the potential to be so overpowered beyond what they already are, they will reach beyond Superman levels of power - and we all know how boring Superman is.
I agree with this; it's already getting very hard to finish the guardian daily, because people don't care about the guardian tokens as it is. That makes getting villains tokens far slower(can't finish the playing both sides mission).
This gives people a reason to play against the villains.
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Looking at these conversations you're in, where you look like a lone camper being assaulted by a pack of wolves from all angles... looking at the conversations in zone where one or two people whine incessantly until everyone puts them on ignore... looking at all the stories of people who think this game is a joke because there's no challenge in it... I get the feeling it's your camp that's the fringe group.
When was the last time someone quit this game because it was "too hard"? ...when was the last time someone was actually willing to admit that?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
If the game is in the state it is in that is hard to really do, and making these changes to the gear will only make this worse. The numbers really do not bode well for what you really want, all it is going to mean is more of a need of nerfs to things specifically to how CON has no DR and nothing that works off it has any DR either on specs or things like ego surge...
Just like with justice gear which broke vigi warden that bit more this will break other already broken things slightly more making balance even worse than it already is. I honestly can't see you ever listening to that but I do wonder what you hope to achieve by calling everyone else delusional and being very close to troll level in some of your arguments.
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Otherwise player's Constitution is going to get absolutely insane thus making content harder to balance from the gap between newer players and players that have put time into the game. If content is built around low end HP, high Con will trivialize it. If content is built around high HP, newer players will instantly die. You're making it harder to develop content in the future by being lazy and not fixing the innate stats on this gear.
It isn't high CON it will be high STR or even EGO.
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I agree with this; it's already getting very hard to finish the guardian daily, because people don't care about the guardian tokens as it is. That makes getting villains tokens far slower(can't finish the playing both sides mission).
This gives people a reason to play against the villains.
There are a lot of reasons people have stopped playing the hero side. The cost is one of the reasons I'm ignoring this content. spawn camping/griefing is the other reason. 3,000 of both tokens wouldn't really help in regards of cost. Unless they change how tokens are acquired.
Future updates could feature more utility mods with role-centric effects or even utility mods that add or interact with certain damage types.
This could provide a desirable "side-grade" reward.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
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I'd even suggest putting Heroics or Vigilante gear in the OStore as an option.
Anything that keeps folks playing/grinding the O content for months to come.
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