If the strong INT nerf goes through, you should probably give a recon token to players with INT as a Super Stat.
Still pretty excited for onslaught though. But I like new things.
I'm pretty sure we can expect a free retcon anyway, they have always done so in the past, this will break certain builds to the point of needing a full respec and you don't want to screw your players over when you're already nerfing them. (I'm all for the nerf being how it is though) I'd expect to get a free respec token.
Onslaught Gear
The passive effects on the Primary Offense pieces are seemingly more effective than the bonuses on Justice Primary Offense gear, and the Defense/Utility/set-bonus pieces are mirrors of Justice gear. The Onslaught set will be considered an upgrade to Justice gear. I understand that gear creep is commonplace in MMOs, but I don't agree with creating a new top-tier gear set right now.
When Justice supplanted Legion as the top-end gear, people still opened lockboxes because they contained other unique prizes along with the Legion gear. Currently, Justice gear is the primary reason people run Rampages. The Questionite is a nice bonus, but there are many other ways to get Q, and the costume/aura/action-figure drops are easily acquired after a limited number of runs.
In my experience, there's currently just enough interest in Rampages to get them to pop reasonably often when there's a decent server population. If Onslaught gear replaces Justice as the new pinnacle, interest in Rampages will dwindle. I doubt Rampages, particularly Sky Command and Lemurian Invasion, will continue popping if that's the case.
Justice gear, by design, is difficult to acquire. Introducing Onslaught gear means that a player who has the old top gear, and wants the new top gear, will have to invalidate their past Justice grinding by no longer using the Justice gear. I imagine this will cause a lot of negative feelings among such players, as well as a significant cost to re-slot mods, especially on multiple characters.
A player can participate in Onslaught content beginning at an early level. This means that top-end level 40 gear acquired through end-game content (level 35+ Rampages) is now trumped by something you can start acquiring after slapping around a few Purple Gang members (then have to wait until level 40 to use).
My Recommendation
Ditch the Onslaught gear, and replace it with devices that mimic the passive effects present on the Primary Offense pieces. Make those devices unique with respect to each other, so a character can only have one Onslaught Device slotted at a time. Onslaught Devices have no level restriction, so they can be used as soon as they are acquired.
New devices could be added as the Onslaught system progresses, more easily than adding (and having players re-slot) new gear.
I run an Int-based, AoPM healer for Rampages. The only way that healer stays alive to keep people fighting is low CD, and AD cycling. So it can destroy builds. ESPECIALLY support and crowd control. I couldn't care less about PvP, but if I did, my healer would also be screwed on that front.
Then, what about the Frosticus Tanks who run LR? Now, their BCR and ADs are screwed.
Well then you might have to actually step up your game or the tanks need to step up their's, but as this update will basically make rampages obsolete it's going to be hard to worry about that. I am also a regen tank who tanked Frosticus, there is this little oft forgotten about power in this day and age called block, because I see a lot of "tanks" who don't even bother with it. I didn't need to cycle MD or Resurgence to stay alive on Frosticus I just needed to block at the right time, while trusting the support in their abilities. Same with Gravitar, any world boss and the like.
I think this illustrates how systemic and a bit too reliant people got on such short CDs that they forgot the basics to builds and that there was more than just building one way to play.
Nerfs destroy builds. CO is not my first MMO rodeo, certainly prolly won't be my last. As for why I mentioned characters that aren't even lv20; I like to plan out character growth. Granted, for some niche builds Int might still be viable. Indeed, I'll even agree - for one build like I've said, it did not affect it heavily and I am running it for my lv30, but the PTS cooldown reduction change DID affect it.
I myself come from some games where only class abilities and innates could reduce cooldowns, and those powers that had cooldowns were not constant-use things, they were "oh $%^&" buttons. Much how I view AD's and AO's. They are ways to make sure that a close fight is no longer so close. Worthy of a cooldown. Many players rely/lean on their CD's and it shows. I used to build and play conservatively; aiming at survival over "one-man wrecking crew". Recently, I tried to build a bit more self-sufficiently, and honestly; while it's okay - it reminds me of why I got bored quickly as a Prot pally in WoW outside of tanking dungeons - if you aren't asleep at the wheel, you cannot die
Onslaught Gear
The passive effects on the Primary Offense pieces are seemingly more effective than the bonuses on Justice Primary Offense gear, and the Defense/Utility/set-bonus pieces are mirrors of Justice gear. The Onslaught set will be considered an upgrade to Justice gear. I understand that gear creep is commonplace in MMOs, but I don't agree with creating a new top-tier gear set right now.
Justice gear, by design, is difficult to acquire. Introducing Onslaught gear means that a player who has the old top gear, and wants the new top gear, will have to invalidate their past Justice grinding by no longer using the Justice gear. I imagine this will cause a lot of negative feelings among such players, as well as a significant cost to re-slot mods, especially on multiple characters.
A player can participate in Onslaught content beginning at an early level. This means that top-end level 40 gear acquired through end-game content (level 35+ Rampages) is now trumped by something you can start acquiring after slapping around a few Purple Gang members (then have to wait until level 40 to use).
My Recommendation
Ditch the Onslaught gear, and replace it with devices that mimic the passive effects present on the Primary Offense pieces. Make those devices unique with respect to each other, so a character can only have one Onslaught Device slotted at a time. Onslaught Devices have no level restriction, so they can be used as soon as they are acquired.
New devices could be added as the Onslaught system progresses, more easily than adding (and having players re-slot) new gear.
This is all too true. The content in-game is fine with Justice being the top-tier. Gear-creep should not rear it's head right now. While the Prim Offense passives are cool and all, devices can mimic them, as stated. I agree with this. Also, thank you for mentioning the level you can start getting tokens for this ... honestly, since Villain tokens are not bound to character ... you can farm them on a slew of lv10s and outfit a lv40 with some work.
I think a lot of you guys need to look at the healer builds that you get the best runs from, you'll see similarities. More than a few.
I use iniquity, bubbles, compassion, and radiant sigils. I do have both ascension and unbreakable, but pretty much never use them. I might need to add another means of triggering sentinel mastery, that's about it for how my healer will be affected.
I also use Iniquity, bubbles, compassion, and radiant sigils. Ascension and ubreakable. But I'm Int primary and AoPM, to boost my stats more, reduce cost, and so that my EB reduces the counter on my self rezz when necessary.
I think a lot of you guys need to look at the healer builds that you get the best runs from, you'll see similarities. More than a few.
Eh, ya dun need heavy reliance on cds to run a good Support build. Most of the best heals and shields have no cd, as do 2/3 of the rezes (and the only ones that can be AoE), passive auras are always on as long as ur in-range, and ya can block anytime that ur not controlled. Although Conviction is a good cd, for Support its so powerful of a self-heal that you'd rarely need to be popping it every 2-3 sec to stay alive (and assuming ya can't heal urself any other way).
Stuff like sigils and Ascension can be nice, but are not really essential either. Rebirth may be up less, but it'll still have a shorter cd than recovery packs.
If there are many similarities between support builds, I bet its mostly cause this game doesn't have nearly as much variety in heals or buffs as it does w/ attacks.
I wouldn't be too concerned over the CDR nerf for healers- more important for them, imo, is getting the damn Rampage queue and UI fixed so Support characters can have everyone in the instance actually on their UI and also getting ur support auras (since those outside, which can be ~half the entire team, don't get them). If there's anything that turns me off from Support at the high-end in CO, its that.
You make a fair point here, flowcyto. Especially when it comes to the UI and Aura range.
I was able to stand there blocking Grond's damage all day. I even held it down while facing away from the screen and talking to a friend. I was still over 90% health.
I was able to stand there blocking Grond's damage all day. I even held it down while facing away from the screen and talking to a friend. I was still over 90% health.
Baseline Grond is around 1300 raw dps, and cannot realistically break anyone's block. Once he gets going, though, he does have some pretty decent spike damage.
In my experience, there's currently just enough interest in Rampages to get them to pop reasonably often when there's a decent server population. If Onslaught gear replaces Justice as the new pinnacle, interest in Rampages will dwindle. I doubt Rampages, particularly Sky Command and Lemurian Invasion, will continue popping if that's the case.
Rampages already run infrequently, and a new way to get top gear will probably kill them (except Gravitar).
How many heroes will be a few tokens away from their Justice Gear set, never getting to finish?
Bugs:
Grond can take falling damage from his superjump.
[20:01] [Combat (Self)] You lose 651116 Health Points from falling.
Damage seems to be different for a transformed AT vs a transformed FF (not sure if it's exactly that, just one toon is at 1232 and another is at 1265)
Okay, the supervillain token system is super-exploitable and also really only viable if you exploit it. Playing legit, I was able to get around fifty tokens, which means 100 days to get a single item of gear (mega-grind). On the other hand, get a buddy who's willing to spam respawn, stand on the respawn point, and I can get a thousand tokens a day.
Suggest some sort of cooldown or decaying value on killing a particular foe. Or just a cap on amount you can get per transform.
BUG: Winter Transmogrification devices will overwrite the supervillain's appearance when used before transforming.
Aw, why'd you tell em? I rather liked Teddy Bear Grond :P
But yes, it is possible to do this - and adorable.
I find it pretty amusing as well. I wouldn't mind seeing it go Live if it didn't remove the supervillain nametag above the villain's head. As it is currently, it's a way to mask which villain you are.
Balance Concern: Durable Heroes
A transformed supervillain receives Villain Tokens for defeating a player. However, many builds designed for durability can take a far higher amount of punishment than a typical player. As a reference point, several builds can routinely survive through Rampage Gravitar's 80,000+ damage yellow bubble.
To obtain a kill and gain Villain Tokens against such builds, a supervillain would need one or more of the following:
a massive sustained damage output which would one-shot most other builds (like Frosticus)
attacks that ignore certain defensive game mechanics (like Mega Destroid Terminators)
multiple active villains attacking the same player at once
1 would be unfair to anyone not running a super-durable character.
2 would mean a suspension of established game mechanics.
3 would be an unreasonable expectation without careful coordination, and would only yield a meager reward for a multi-player effort.
Under the current system, it is unwise for a supervillain to bother fighting someone difficult or impossible to defeat. If kills are the only way to generate Villain Tokens versus players, what we'll likely see is supervillains choosing to hit only squishy characters to yield a maximum profit.
My Recommendation
Use the unique mechanics of each villain as another way to gain Villain Tokens:
Grond gains a Villain Token for every X number of Fury he generates.
Gravitar gains a Villain Token for every Y number of Gravity Wells she detonates.
Medusa gains a Villain Token for every Z number of Mind Spike stuns she applies.
This would encourage villains to tangle with even an unkillable hero, and reward players for using their chosen villain as designed.
Balance Concern: Farming
If a supervillain and an accomplice hang out at a respawn point, the villain can repeatedly kill-farm the accomplice for Villain Tokens. Testing this with a friend, Grond generated 300 Villain Tokens (60 kills) in 5 minutes.
My Recommendation
When a hero is defeated by a supervillain, flag that hero to temporarily not grant any Villain Tokens on a subsequent defeat, and have the effect expire after X seconds. This would discourage supervillains from rapidly farming vulnerable heroes.
I don't think it's actually possible to programmatically prevent farming. You could, however, make it so farming doesn't gain you any special benefit: just have a fairly easy to achieve cap on villain points per transform -- as long as you transform and do at least a half-decent job, you get your points.
My Recommendation
Ditch the Onslaught gear, and replace it with devices that mimic the passive effects present on the Primary Offense pieces. Make those devices unique with respect to each other, so a character can only have one Onslaught Device slotted at a time. Onslaught Devices have no level restriction, so they can be used as soon as they are acquired.
New devices could be added as the Onslaught system progresses, more easily than adding (and having players re-slot) new gear.
That is a great idea, we'll have powercreep one way or the other, but at least like this the current content will not be invalidated.
In my experience, there's currently just enough interest in Rampages to get them to pop reasonably often when there's a decent server population. If Onslaught gear replaces Justice as the new pinnacle, interest in Rampages will dwindle. I doubt Rampages, particularly Sky Command and Lemurian Invasion, will continue popping if that's the case.
Rampages already run infrequently, and a new way to get top gear will probably kill them (except Gravitar).
How many heroes will be a few tokens away from their Justice Gear set, never getting to finish?
Yeah, that's too bad. Chasing the whale, but that's gaming right?
I don't like Sigs, but I'll leave this here anyway. At least I'm not to trying to hypnotise you with moving things!
- Intelligence: Cooldown Reduction granted by Intelligence has been drastically reduced.
- Cooldown Reduction Rating: Cooldown Reduction granted by Cooldown Reduction rating has been drastically reduced.
Hi, I'd like to discuss this. You might know me from such threads as "I have a lifetime sub and I run archetypes anyway just to see how the other half lives" and "I'm a serious math nerd for this game". THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA. Freeforms might be OP, in fact I'm guilty of that myself and I put out a build that abused every single drop of cooldown redux. Nerf int a bit? Sure. Nerfing CD redux gear is going to SUCK for archetypes.
So, Taco, you ask. Why does this matter? Well, put simply? This game has to scale for the archetypes and they only come with one or 2 active rotation powers. For the most part they tend to suck, and CDR is the only thing that makes a few of them survivable. This will not nerf the OP freeforms (trust me, we already have a plan) but it *will* mess up archetypes. Not to mention new telepathy, and gadgeteering. I wrote a very favorable review of the inventor, but I prefaced it with "this is very hard to play", and given the slower cooldown for the on next hit toggles? You're not breaking the powergaming theorycrafters here, we've been doing this forever. It's hurting the new players.
Respectfully, this is the vehicle nerf 2.0. This nerf won't hurt the people abusing math, it'll hurt people playing the basics. My fiancee is one of those effected, she doesn't run freeforms. She rocks a gold account and is using ATs because they're easier to play. I can build for her, so it doesn't hurt. I can't build for every new player that gets screwed by this. It's plasma 2.0, only most of the people using CDR don't realize they're using something so strong.
Please balance this further before you push it live. I'm 100% willing to test on PTS with archetypes. I'm sure a few of us would jump in there. And I'm gonna voice the unpopular opinion: Soft cap the freeforms on cooldown redux a bit stronger. Leave the AT alone.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Another thing about the CDR changes I think that should be addressed are the specs that proc on sleep. Those were designed with the high CDR in mind that came with the same patch, but even with good CDR sleep has a CD of about 12 seconds on PTS so those specs are suddenly a lot weaker for people who are using sleep (or other powers that proc those with a significant CD).
If the CDR is kept like it's now on PTS I think those specs should have a longer duration to match.
I don't post much, but this time I felt the need to do so.
- Intelligence: Cooldown Reduction granted by Intelligence has been drastically reduced.
- Cooldown Reduction Rating: Cooldown Reduction granted by Cooldown Reduction rating has been drastically reduced.
Checked this on PTS, my toon went from 45 sec cooldown on Unbreakable to 72 sec... This is huge. My advice to the devs: careful with the nerfs. Incompetent nerfing of vehicle weapons and mods completely destroyed vehicle gameplay (Plasma Beam bait&switch comes to mind), and I imagine you don't want that to happen to lvl 40 gameplay as well.
As to the other stuff, I didn't even have the heart to check it out. Overall, very dissatisfied this new dev team is going the random nerf route. There's just so much stuff to fix before you should even begin to contemplate more nerfs...
Anyway, hope you have a change of heart about this.
Bugs (ON PTS)
-Untill defender north east of Champions (7975 199 164) spawns on a street lamp
-New Saviour/Defender gloves have same description (Same Power?)
-Changing Builds takes you out of villan mode, deletes device
(Yes its so you can't "escape/hide", but now someone is going to press that button and loose their turn)
Comments
- I'm for "inclusive play" for all, but placing the adjent and target direclty by Kodiac is asking for complaints from people not knowing to not attack. Nearly every other adjent and most targets are out of the on the edges of the map.
- Next best location (WCOC) seems to be covered, will see if i can find another Westside spawn point with no enemies
- I'm fairly sure I suck at playing the villains, but when using my transform device I seemed to have 0 defence when attacking a point (unless I 1-shot most of the defence), yet multiple people attacking the boss seemed appropriate? (Until defender is too strong? I did it wrong?)
- And yes the villain powers seem wonky, low damage sometimes then 8k+ others both to my hero, and targets.
- Leading to all the villan token acquisition problems people pointed out. (Do we even know the rotation for this event to propose a fix?)
Alright, Im so confused right now, cuz all I here, see is crying from everyone (mostly), and zone chat keeps ranting on, how the world is going to end, so childish in my eyes, so I want some clearfaction, on what excaly is going on.
What is this CDR Nerf excaly, and how will it "hurt" powers and such, cuz people are ranting down, how they are going to kill melee players, or tanks, and quite frankly I can't see how it will, I have't been on the PTS, so..I won't kown, but really?. Please can someone explain?, cuz the more I see people cry, the more I get confused, and then I start to worry.
Or is people, just upset that their "Super OP, God like builds" will be ruined?
Edit: Alright, so I've tested almost toon's build in the PTS, where the CDR Nerf, is and I honestly can not see the damage, my Melee builds are still super and how I want them, my ranged builds are still fine, and hell even my min healer is still great. (Tho she needs a rework *sighs* for the 5th time)
The only thing I have noticed is that some AO/ADs have somewhat of a longer cooldown, by the builds I've seen by 1min, by a singel min!, sure its a pain in the butt, to see some combos cooled, down like Ego Surge, or some AD, like "Untouchable", but really, its not like the sky is falling, sure it damages, some part, but you learn and adapt to the powers, they changed.
So all in all, I see no harm in this, my builds are fine, and Im sure others are too, they just can't get a grip, simple put, its like in Warframe, as soon they nerf, a power, they really like, everything turns into a storm.
So, I don't see the big deal?, all I have readed from the fine gent, @EvilTaco is that they hurt AT, please forgive me if I sound like a Elitist, whats the huge deal in poor little ATs getting damaged?
Only a couple of PvPers have posted here, and they both like the changes.
lol clam down there, Grill, your going to trip over yourself, but lets be real, please explain to me, why your upset about this hole ideal?, are your builds to God-like OP?
But back onto Pruin's Comment
Well, that's really weird, almost everyone I came across, came upset about the hole ideal, I guess Zone chat is always, full of winners, but there is a few on here, still the same, unless they edited their posts.
Where have you seen the few, that posted, or only a few that have bacily cried over?, Unsure, because this is really confusing, I have seen my share of "Haters gonna hate", around, that say "oh how they will leave", but how come its not come around you end?, or is it my fault that always see that first then normal comments?, cuz that's a nasty habit, as soon I see someone cry about something silly, like this, its awkward, even more so when they scream to the heavens "Oh God never do this, its going to kill the game oh no". Not picking on anyone here, but I kown a few pep, who have a habit of trying to make the game "Good", yet call on "sky is falling", when something bad happens.
Well, that's really weird, almost everyone I came across, came upset about the hole ideal, I guess Zone chat is always, full of winners, but there is a few on here, still the same, unless they edited their posts.
Where have you seen the few, that posted, or only a few that have bacily cried over?, Unsure, because this is really confusing, I have seen my share of "Haters gonna hate", around, that say "oh how they will leave", but how come its not come around you end?
It seems most people aren't fans of the changes on the PTS to cooldown reduction, and that doesn't surprise me. Both in this thread and in zone chat in-game, I see more people against the changes than for it. My original comment was directed at someone who claimed PvPers were the ones who were the most upset about it, yet I find the opposite to be true. Not trying to start a war or anything about that between the different groups of people, just saying what I've observed.
Played Grond for a bit. Here are my thoughts:
[*] Not sure I like the fact that the gear is better than Justice gear. Doesn't seen fair. Maybe make the set bonus lower so it's more of a trade-off between having a higher bonus (Justice Gear) or a Primary Offense with a passive.
I'm actually personally fine with this. It gives folks options other than the rampages for getting that level of gear. I suspect as the devs focus more and more on content we'll see more and more options for getting higher level gear than just the rampages.
Well, that's really weird, almost everyone I came across, came upset about the hole ideal, I guess Zone chat is always, full of winners, but there is a few on here, still the same, unless they edited their posts.
Where have you seen the few, that posted, or only a few that have bacily cried over?, Unsure, because this is really confusing, I have seen my share of "Haters gonna hate", around, that say "oh how they will leave", but how come its not come around you end?
It seems most people aren't fans of the changes on the PTS to cooldown reduction, and that doesn't surprise me. Both in this thread and in zone chat in-game, I see more people against the changes than for it. My original comment was directed at someone who claimed PvPers were the ones who were the most upset about it, yet I find the opposite to be true. Not trying to start a war or anything about that between the different groups of people, just saying what I've observed.
Ahh I see, yeah that makes alot of sense, good point you brought, like I said in my other comment, I put all my toons on the PTS, to test out this "Nerf", and I can not honestly see anything wrong with it, or well no offense to anyone really, but I don't understand why everyone is pretty much "Butt-Hurt" over it. Its nothing, its only a 1min cooldown, that's all I gathered from my builds I got.
People I seen in Zone mostly, in some in this topic, is how it ruins DPS players or Tanking, or Melee toons, this one person was crying so hard in Zone he said something over the lines of: Melee Builds/Players are DEAD!, now sure, the reaction of everyone is: Oh Shi_, but when I checked to look if my builds where killed by this, and nope, it has not, Really all this has done to most builds, or I guess mine, as Im not the one crying over the Nerf, is that its punched a small hole in the build, I have to wait for more CDR, but then aigen, its stopping alot of players, and I will admit myself for getting to used to face-tanking everything, and then getting ballzy, when you think you can take care of something, yet the CDR is there to say: Nope, think smart, not OP DPS COD you way in.
So, Im really unsure, but yeah, its not big srupise, haters will hate. I'm no the "5-man level, MLG-Pro" type of player, who wants to just DPS everything, Sure I like it, gets the job done, and such, but this cooldown is nothing. While Im not depressed enough to sit into the hole AO/AD, to see whats bad or whats good, I just learn and adapt.
So, as alot of people here seem to be still upset, what is your taken on this?, I mean I can see your more wise then I am, but I just can't see nothing wrong with this Nerf, Unless I am blind and Im missing some key factor, that's not game-breaking enough to make the "God-Builders" mad.
And well, on that I have to agree with Gradil (your name is so hard so spell, even tho its right in-front of me Dx) , but don't hold your breath, that won;t happen, as you kown that PW, is like, but you never kown, they chuold turn around and try it. But as for the danger, unsure where or what it whuold be, besides the "Slivers ATs" in-what, no one really cares about, I don't think.
Another thing about the CDR changes I think that should be addressed are the specs that proc on sleep. Those were designed with the high CDR in mind that came with the same patch, but even with good CDR sleep has a CD of about 12 seconds on PTS so those specs are suddenly a lot weaker for people who are using sleep (or other powers that proc those with a significant CD).
If the CDR is kept like it's now on PTS I think those specs should have a longer duration to match.
I think it may also be worthwhile adjusting down the base cds of Mental Leech and Shadow of Doubt. Even though ranking does lower their cds (only getting about a 1-1.5 sec diff at R3), the gap widens as normal ranks are taken off. Stacking the DoTs helps for debuffs, and for Mind Break's rupturing mechanic.
-
As far as the ATs go: even though its becoming outdated content, I'm not sure how any tank ATs are meant to take all of Frosticus' ice prisons w/ just one AD now- the principle of it seems a bit too unfair w/ the nerf. It may be time to look at the fixed cd on healing packs, as those imo disproportionately affect ATs and newer players (vs. vets using FFs).
Balance Concern: Durable Heroes
A transformed supervillain receives Villain Tokens for defeating a player. However, many builds designed for durability can take a far higher amount of punishment than a typical player. As a reference point, several builds can routinely survive through Rampage Gravitar's 80,000+ damage yellow bubble.
To obtain a kill and gain Villain Tokens against such builds, a supervillain would need one or more of the following:
a massive sustained damage output which would one-shot most other builds (like Frosticus)
attacks that ignore certain defensive game mechanics (like Mega Destroid Terminators)
multiple active villains attacking the same player at once
1 would be unfair to anyone not running a super-durable character.
2 would mean a suspension of established game mechanics.
3 would be an unreasonable expectation without careful coordination, and would only yield a meager reward for a multi-player effort.
Under the current system, it is unwise for a supervillain to bother fighting someone difficult or impossible to defeat. If kills are the only way to generate Villain Tokens versus players, what we'll likely see is supervillains choosing to hit only squishy characters to yield a maximum profit.
My Recommendation
Use the unique mechanics of each villain as another way to gain Villain Tokens:
Grond gains a Villain Token for every X number of Fury he generates.
Gravitar gains a Villain Token for every Y number of Gravity Wells she detonates.
Medusa gains a Villain Token for every Z number of Mind Spike stuns she applies.
This would encourage villains to tangle with even an unkillable hero, and reward players for using their chosen villain as designed.
Balance Concern: Farming
If a supervillain and an accomplice hang out at a respawn point, the villain can repeatedly kill-farm the accomplice for Villain Tokens. Testing this with a friend, Grond generated 300 Villain Tokens (60 kills) in 5 minutes.
My Recommendation
When a hero is defeated by a supervillain, flag that hero to temporarily not grant any Villain Tokens on a subsequent defeat, and have the effect expire after X seconds. This would discourage supervillains from rapidly farming vulnerable heroes.
"Iv climbed a mountain to gear over 30 character with justice gear with blood, sweat and nothing but hard efffort, and now you people want to defend a way which gets you better gear within minutes of exploiting /killme against Onslaught become devices? You people defend the sickest most disgusting things that could ever happen in this game just to suit your own benefit without counting the cost and time and effort other people have made.
All you people want is your cheats or instant-win 'gimme the best loot NOW for FREE' rubbish, defending exploits on the forum at EVERY CORNER. Thats exactly what will break the foundations of this entire game into a broken ruin and kill it.
I love how some of the most obvious broken things, nobody is mentioning, everybodies keeping their lips zipped because all they see, is a really easy way to exploit free Justice-Level gear, and of course...you dont want to stop that. Nooo screw balance and positive changes you just want your free loot now, thats all you care about."
Interesting CONTENT is an exploit now.
That stretches the definition of exploit to a new level I never knew possible.
Rampages won't be the only high level content for all of eternity. The game will evolve with more high level content as time goes on. And equivalent or better gear will be tagged to that content.
If that content tends to be more popular than rampages, than so be it.
EDIT: I should also say that if Justice Gear is the only thing keeping rampages in general popular (I doubt that) then maybe its time to review that content in general.
Darquara, i think you dont understand just what /killme can do, in Onslaught.
And thats only 1 of many ways to break this whole thing apart. Pantagruel knows what itll do veeery well. I imagine a pre-organised team doing this can easily gain someone 50,000 villain tokens in 10 minutes.
Putting GEAR into this whole thing....isnt going to work...period, theres so much they cannot possibly fix.
DITCH THE GEAR, get rid of it. People will then have temptation to just have fun with Onslaught instead of exploit the hell out of it and move on.
The problem with having two options to get the same thing, is that it is almost impossible to make both viable. Most people will just use the easier option and since onslaught is the newer option that will likely be the easier one. With the low population in CO that mean rampages will be used much less, and that will create a vicious cycle of people not queueing because they never start anyway. If CO would get lots of new content having new content be a replacement for older stuff would be ok, but this just makes rampages useless.
So all in all I think it's a bad choice to make them compete for the same gearslots. Make onslaught items either secondary gear or devices would give both onslaught gear and justice gear it's own place. Another option would be to only add offense onslaugh gear and make that work as a set with defense and utility justice gear.
Darquara, i think you dont understand just what /killme can do, in Onslaught.
And thats only 1 of many ways to break this whole thing apart. Pantagruel knows what itll do veeery well. I imagine a pre-organised team doing this can easily gain someone 50,000 villain tokens in 10 minutes.
Putting GEAR into this whole thing....isnt going to work...period, theres so much they cannot possibly fix.
If there are exploits POINT THEM OUT. That's the point of PTS and this thread.
The exploits should indeed be fixed.
I would say make the ONSLAUGHT gear equivalent, not just remove it.
The problem with having two options to get the same thing, is that it is almost impossible to make both viable. Most people will just use the easier option and since onslaught is the newer option that will likely be the easier one. With the low population in CO that mean rampages will be used much less, and that will create a vicious cycle of people not queueing because they never start anyway. If CO would get lots of new content having new content be a replacement for older stuff would be ok, but this just makes rampages useless.
So all in all I think it's a bad choice to make them compete for the same gearslots. Make onslaught items either secondary gear or devices would give both onslaught gear and justice gear it's own place. Another option would be to only add offense onslaugh gear and make that work as a set with defense and utility justice gear.
Sure but then what happens the next time they want to add another level of high level content?
I think we're only putting off the inevitable here.
And again, if gear is the only thing keeping Rampages viable then that content needs to be reviewed as to what of it can be tweaked so that they are fun without the Gear requirement. (And sure that won't be a fast review).
But your idea to turn them into secondary gear with their own bonuses is a good idea. To me that's some sort of equivalence.
Turning them into devices or removing them isn't one.
Comments
I'm pretty sure we can expect a free retcon anyway, they have always done so in the past, this will break certain builds to the point of needing a full respec and you don't want to screw your players over when you're already nerfing them. (I'm all for the nerf being how it is though) I'd expect to get a free respec token.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
The passive effects on the Primary Offense pieces are seemingly more effective than the bonuses on Justice Primary Offense gear, and the Defense/Utility/set-bonus pieces are mirrors of Justice gear. The Onslaught set will be considered an upgrade to Justice gear. I understand that gear creep is commonplace in MMOs, but I don't agree with creating a new top-tier gear set right now.
When Justice supplanted Legion as the top-end gear, people still opened lockboxes because they contained other unique prizes along with the Legion gear. Currently, Justice gear is the primary reason people run Rampages. The Questionite is a nice bonus, but there are many other ways to get Q, and the costume/aura/action-figure drops are easily acquired after a limited number of runs.
In my experience, there's currently just enough interest in Rampages to get them to pop reasonably often when there's a decent server population. If Onslaught gear replaces Justice as the new pinnacle, interest in Rampages will dwindle. I doubt Rampages, particularly Sky Command and Lemurian Invasion, will continue popping if that's the case.
Justice gear, by design, is difficult to acquire. Introducing Onslaught gear means that a player who has the old top gear, and wants the new top gear, will have to invalidate their past Justice grinding by no longer using the Justice gear. I imagine this will cause a lot of negative feelings among such players, as well as a significant cost to re-slot mods, especially on multiple characters.
A player can participate in Onslaught content beginning at an early level. This means that top-end level 40 gear acquired through end-game content (level 35+ Rampages) is now trumped by something you can start acquiring after slapping around a few Purple Gang members (then have to wait until level 40 to use).
My Recommendation
Ditch the Onslaught gear, and replace it with devices that mimic the passive effects present on the Primary Offense pieces. Make those devices unique with respect to each other, so a character can only have one Onslaught Device slotted at a time. Onslaught Devices have no level restriction, so they can be used as soon as they are acquired.
New devices could be added as the Onslaught system progresses, more easily than adding (and having players re-slot) new gear.
+1
Nerfs destroy builds. CO is not my first MMO rodeo, certainly prolly won't be my last. As for why I mentioned characters that aren't even lv20; I like to plan out character growth. Granted, for some niche builds Int might still be viable. Indeed, I'll even agree - for one build like I've said, it did not affect it heavily and I am running it for my lv30, but the PTS cooldown reduction change DID affect it.
I myself come from some games where only class abilities and innates could reduce cooldowns, and those powers that had cooldowns were not constant-use things, they were "oh $%^&" buttons. Much how I view AD's and AO's. They are ways to make sure that a close fight is no longer so close. Worthy of a cooldown. Many players rely/lean on their CD's and it shows. I used to build and play conservatively; aiming at survival over "one-man wrecking crew". Recently, I tried to build a bit more self-sufficiently, and honestly; while it's okay - it reminds me of why I got bored quickly as a Prot pally in WoW outside of tanking dungeons - if you aren't asleep at the wheel, you cannot die
This is all too true. The content in-game is fine with Justice being the top-tier. Gear-creep should not rear it's head right now. While the Prim Offense passives are cool and all, devices can mimic them, as stated. I agree with this. Also, thank you for mentioning the level you can start getting tokens for this ... honestly, since Villain tokens are not bound to character ... you can farm them on a slew of lv10s and outfit a lv40 with some work.
I also use Iniquity, bubbles, compassion, and radiant sigils. Ascension and ubreakable. But I'm Int primary and AoPM, to boost my stats more, reduce cost, and so that my EB reduces the counter on my self rezz when necessary.
You make a fair point here, flowcyto. Especially when it comes to the UI and Aura range.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Rampages already run infrequently, and a new way to get top gear will probably kill them (except Gravitar).
How many heroes will be a few tokens away from their Justice Gear set, never getting to finish?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Grond can take falling damage from his superjump.
[20:01] [Combat (Self)] You lose 651116 Health Points from falling.
Damage seems to be different for a transformed AT vs a transformed FF (not sure if it's exactly that, just one toon is at 1232 and another is at 1265)
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Suggest some sort of cooldown or decaying value on killing a particular foe. Or just a cap on amount you can get per transform.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Aw, why'd you tell em? I rather liked Teddy Bear Grond :P
But yes, it is possible to do this - and adorable.
I find it pretty amusing as well. I wouldn't mind seeing it go Live if it didn't remove the supervillain nametag above the villain's head. As it is currently, it's a way to mask which villain you are.
A transformed supervillain receives Villain Tokens for defeating a player. However, many builds designed for durability can take a far higher amount of punishment than a typical player. As a reference point, several builds can routinely survive through Rampage Gravitar's 80,000+ damage yellow bubble.
To obtain a kill and gain Villain Tokens against such builds, a supervillain would need one or more of the following:
1 would be unfair to anyone not running a super-durable character.
2 would mean a suspension of established game mechanics.
3 would be an unreasonable expectation without careful coordination, and would only yield a meager reward for a multi-player effort.
Under the current system, it is unwise for a supervillain to bother fighting someone difficult or impossible to defeat. If kills are the only way to generate Villain Tokens versus players, what we'll likely see is supervillains choosing to hit only squishy characters to yield a maximum profit.
My Recommendation
Use the unique mechanics of each villain as another way to gain Villain Tokens:
- Grond gains a Villain Token for every X number of Fury he generates.
- Gravitar gains a Villain Token for every Y number of Gravity Wells she detonates.
- Medusa gains a Villain Token for every Z number of Mind Spike stuns she applies.
This would encourage villains to tangle with even an unkillable hero, and reward players for using their chosen villain as designed.Balance Concern: Farming
If a supervillain and an accomplice hang out at a respawn point, the villain can repeatedly kill-farm the accomplice for Villain Tokens. Testing this with a friend, Grond generated 300 Villain Tokens (60 kills) in 5 minutes.
My Recommendation
When a hero is defeated by a supervillain, flag that hero to temporarily not grant any Villain Tokens on a subsequent defeat, and have the effect expire after X seconds. This would discourage supervillains from rapidly farming vulnerable heroes.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
That is a great idea, we'll have powercreep one way or the other, but at least like this the current content will not be invalidated.
Yeah, that's too bad. Chasing the whale, but that's gaming right?
- Cooldown Reduction Rating: Cooldown Reduction granted by Cooldown Reduction rating has been drastically reduced.
Hi, I'd like to discuss this. You might know me from such threads as "I have a lifetime sub and I run archetypes anyway just to see how the other half lives" and "I'm a serious math nerd for this game". THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA. Freeforms might be OP, in fact I'm guilty of that myself and I put out a build that abused every single drop of cooldown redux. Nerf int a bit? Sure. Nerfing CD redux gear is going to SUCK for archetypes.
So, Taco, you ask. Why does this matter? Well, put simply? This game has to scale for the archetypes and they only come with one or 2 active rotation powers. For the most part they tend to suck, and CDR is the only thing that makes a few of them survivable. This will not nerf the OP freeforms (trust me, we already have a plan) but it *will* mess up archetypes. Not to mention new telepathy, and gadgeteering. I wrote a very favorable review of the inventor, but I prefaced it with "this is very hard to play", and given the slower cooldown for the on next hit toggles? You're not breaking the powergaming theorycrafters here, we've been doing this forever. It's hurting the new players.
Respectfully, this is the vehicle nerf 2.0. This nerf won't hurt the people abusing math, it'll hurt people playing the basics. My fiancee is one of those effected, she doesn't run freeforms. She rocks a gold account and is using ATs because they're easier to play. I can build for her, so it doesn't hurt. I can't build for every new player that gets screwed by this. It's plasma 2.0, only most of the people using CDR don't realize they're using something so strong.
Please balance this further before you push it live. I'm 100% willing to test on PTS with archetypes. I'm sure a few of us would jump in there. And I'm gonna voice the unpopular opinion: Soft cap the freeforms on cooldown redux a bit stronger. Leave the AT alone.
RIP Caine
If the CDR is kept like it's now on PTS I think those specs should have a longer duration to match.
- Intelligence: Cooldown Reduction granted by Intelligence has been drastically reduced.
- Cooldown Reduction Rating: Cooldown Reduction granted by Cooldown Reduction rating has been drastically reduced.
Checked this on PTS, my toon went from 45 sec cooldown on Unbreakable to 72 sec... This is huge. My advice to the devs: careful with the nerfs. Incompetent nerfing of vehicle weapons and mods completely destroyed vehicle gameplay (Plasma Beam bait&switch comes to mind), and I imagine you don't want that to happen to lvl 40 gameplay as well.
As to the other stuff, I didn't even have the heart to check it out. Overall, very dissatisfied this new dev team is going the random nerf route. There's just so much stuff to fix before you should even begin to contemplate more nerfs...
Anyway, hope you have a change of heart about this.
Every single PvPer I've talked to likes these changes, so I don't know where you're hearing that.
-Untill defender north east of Champions (7975 199 164) spawns on a street lamp
-New Saviour/Defender gloves have same description (Same Power?)
-Changing Builds takes you out of villan mode, deletes device
(Yes its so you can't "escape/hide", but now someone is going to press that button and loose their turn)
Comments
- I'm for "inclusive play" for all, but placing the adjent and target direclty by Kodiac is asking for complaints from people not knowing to not attack. Nearly every other adjent and most targets are out of the on the edges of the map.
- Next best location (WCOC) seems to be covered, will see if i can find another Westside spawn point with no enemies
- I'm fairly sure I suck at playing the villains, but when using my transform device I seemed to have 0 defence when attacking a point (unless I 1-shot most of the defence), yet multiple people attacking the boss seemed appropriate? (Until defender is too strong? I did it wrong?)
- And yes the villain powers seem wonky, low damage sometimes then 8k+ others both to my hero, and targets.
- Leading to all the villan token acquisition problems people pointed out. (Do we even know the rotation for this event to propose a fix?)
What is this CDR Nerf excaly, and how will it "hurt" powers and such, cuz people are ranting down, how they are going to kill melee players, or tanks, and quite frankly I can't see how it will, I have't been on the PTS, so..I won't kown, but really?. Please can someone explain?, cuz the more I see people cry, the more I get confused, and then I start to worry.
Or is people, just upset that their "Super OP, God like builds" will be ruined?
Edit: Alright, so I've tested almost toon's build in the PTS, where the CDR Nerf, is and I honestly can not see the damage, my Melee builds are still super and how I want them, my ranged builds are still fine, and hell even my min healer is still great. (Tho she needs a rework *sighs* for the 5th time)
The only thing I have noticed is that some AO/ADs have somewhat of a longer cooldown, by the builds I've seen by 1min, by a singel min!, sure its a pain in the butt, to see some combos cooled, down like Ego Surge, or some AD, like "Untouchable", but really, its not like the sky is falling, sure it damages, some part, but you learn and adapt to the powers, they changed.
So all in all, I see no harm in this, my builds are fine, and Im sure others are too, they just can't get a grip, simple put, its like in Warframe, as soon they nerf, a power, they really like, everything turns into a storm.
So, I don't see the big deal?, all I have readed from the fine gent, @EvilTaco is that they hurt AT, please forgive me if I sound like a Elitist, whats the huge deal in poor little ATs getting damaged?
In before the: Gold Master Race Scum!
P.S Can;t wait for that new power
You clearly have't been near zone chat, nor read the comments here *points at Gradii,*
Only a couple of PvPers have posted here, and they both like the changes.
lol clam down there, Grill, your going to trip over yourself, but lets be real, please explain to me, why your upset about this hole ideal?, are your builds to God-like OP?
But back onto Pruin's Comment
Well, that's really weird, almost everyone I came across, came upset about the hole ideal, I guess Zone chat is always, full of winners, but there is a few on here, still the same, unless they edited their posts.
Where have you seen the few, that posted, or only a few that have bacily cried over?, Unsure, because this is really confusing, I have seen my share of "Haters gonna hate", around, that say "oh how they will leave", but how come its not come around you end?, or is it my fault that always see that first then normal comments?, cuz that's a nasty habit, as soon I see someone cry about something silly, like this, its awkward, even more so when they scream to the heavens "Oh God never do this, its going to kill the game oh no". Not picking on anyone here, but I kown a few pep, who have a habit of trying to make the game "Good", yet call on "sky is falling", when something bad happens.
Just weirdly weird on my end
It seems most people aren't fans of the changes on the PTS to cooldown reduction, and that doesn't surprise me. Both in this thread and in zone chat in-game, I see more people against the changes than for it. My original comment was directed at someone who claimed PvPers were the ones who were the most upset about it, yet I find the opposite to be true. Not trying to start a war or anything about that between the different groups of people, just saying what I've observed.
I'm actually personally fine with this. It gives folks options other than the rampages for getting that level of gear. I suspect as the devs focus more and more on content we'll see more and more options for getting higher level gear than just the rampages.
I'm okay with options in an mmo.
-1.
I'd prefer if they have to do anything to make Justice and Onslaught gear equivalent.
Not simply remove Onslaught gear.
More options in an mmo are always better.
Ahh I see, yeah that makes alot of sense, good point you brought, like I said in my other comment, I put all my toons on the PTS, to test out this "Nerf", and I can not honestly see anything wrong with it, or well no offense to anyone really, but I don't understand why everyone is pretty much "Butt-Hurt" over it. Its nothing, its only a 1min cooldown, that's all I gathered from my builds I got.
People I seen in Zone mostly, in some in this topic, is how it ruins DPS players or Tanking, or Melee toons, this one person was crying so hard in Zone he said something over the lines of: Melee Builds/Players are DEAD!, now sure, the reaction of everyone is: Oh Shi_, but when I checked to look if my builds where killed by this, and nope, it has not, Really all this has done to most builds, or I guess mine, as Im not the one crying over the Nerf, is that its punched a small hole in the build, I have to wait for more CDR, but then aigen, its stopping alot of players, and I will admit myself for getting to used to face-tanking everything, and then getting ballzy, when you think you can take care of something, yet the CDR is there to say: Nope, think smart, not OP DPS COD you way in.
So, Im really unsure, but yeah, its not big srupise, haters will hate. I'm no the "5-man level, MLG-Pro" type of player, who wants to just DPS everything, Sure I like it, gets the job done, and such, but this cooldown is nothing. While Im not depressed enough to sit into the hole AO/AD, to see whats bad or whats good, I just learn and adapt.
So, as alot of people here seem to be still upset, what is your taken on this?, I mean I can see your more wise then I am, but I just can't see nothing wrong with this Nerf, Unless I am blind and Im missing some key factor, that's not game-breaking enough to make the "God-Builders" mad.
And well, on that I have to agree with Gradil (your name is so hard so spell, even tho its right in-front of me Dx) , but don't hold your breath, that won;t happen, as you kown that PW, is like, but you never kown, they chuold turn around and try it. But as for the danger, unsure where or what it whuold be, besides the "Slivers ATs" in-what, no one really cares about, I don't think.
-
As far as the ATs go: even though its becoming outdated content, I'm not sure how any tank ATs are meant to take all of Frosticus' ice prisons w/ just one AD now- the principle of it seems a bit too unfair w/ the nerf. It may be time to look at the fixed cd on healing packs, as those imo disproportionately affect ATs and newer players (vs. vets using FFs).
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I like.
Interesting CONTENT is an exploit now.
That stretches the definition of exploit to a new level I never knew possible.
Rampages won't be the only high level content for all of eternity. The game will evolve with more high level content as time goes on. And equivalent or better gear will be tagged to that content.
If that content tends to be more popular than rampages, than so be it.
EDIT: I should also say that if Justice Gear is the only thing keeping rampages in general popular (I doubt that) then maybe its time to review that content in general.
And thats only 1 of many ways to break this whole thing apart. Pantagruel knows what itll do veeery well. I imagine a pre-organised team doing this can easily gain someone 50,000 villain tokens in 10 minutes.
Putting GEAR into this whole thing....isnt going to work...period, theres so much they cannot possibly fix.
DITCH THE GEAR, get rid of it. People will then have temptation to just have fun with Onslaught instead of exploit the hell out of it and move on.
So all in all I think it's a bad choice to make them compete for the same gearslots. Make onslaught items either secondary gear or devices would give both onslaught gear and justice gear it's own place. Another option would be to only add offense onslaugh gear and make that work as a set with defense and utility justice gear.
If there are exploits POINT THEM OUT. That's the point of PTS and this thread.
The exploits should indeed be fixed.
I would say make the ONSLAUGHT gear equivalent, not just remove it.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Smackwell
Sure but then what happens the next time they want to add another level of high level content?
I think we're only putting off the inevitable here.
And again, if gear is the only thing keeping Rampages viable then that content needs to be reviewed as to what of it can be tweaked so that they are fun without the Gear requirement. (And sure that won't be a fast review).
But your idea to turn them into secondary gear with their own bonuses is a good idea. To me that's some sort of equivalence.
Turning them into devices or removing them isn't one.