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Archetype's diminishing returns specifics?
williamkony
Posts: 582 Arc User
From what I understand, Archetype's have reduced effect on SOME kind of diminishing returns. Or, they did at one point. Is this still the case? If so, what exactly is affected? The boost from Superstats? Specific stat additions (ranged damage for Ego, critical rate for Dexterity, etc.)? Boosts from Forms such as Concentration and Compassion? I can't seem to find any specifics, aside from that it seems to be a more pronounced effect on damage characters than tanks or healers.
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Post edited by williamkony on
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This did not seem to affect crit chance, cost/cooldown reduction, or resists but might have effected healing boosts from PRE & Superstats in support role. Ayonachan had most of the details but seems to have disappeared from the forums.
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- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Ouch, I guess Offense being multiplicative only made the problem worse.
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- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Yes, it does give better DPS, especially for tanks and supports.
On the other hand, it makes ATs into real aggro magnets in teams and most of ATs aren't really prepared to handle aggro. Especially not paper-thin DPS ones.
Just use Con mods
And yet I do it on every single one of my freeforms.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I know dat feeling..
at least you get to easily live through most content, though, unlike most dps ATs.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
For an idea, a "good" EncDPS for a L30 grab alert is ... 1K or so.
Most of the time this "benefit" is getting you killed unless you spend time blocking, or not attacking, or exchanging your gear bonuses for more defense/CON/health, every way actually nullifies this benefit.
So it's a very strange engineering. I suppose they wanted to balance things with ATs having less power slots, or builds randomly slapped together and whatnot, but it's just weird.
The whole system would be much less counterintuitive if ATs were built exactly like FFs but with fixed power progression.
Of course there's also a possibility that it is a real bug, but nobody knows how to fix it.
Passive Damage bonuses diminish at different rates between Freeforms and Archetypes.
I know that Freeforms&Archetypes start to diminish at ~96% Total Passive damage bonuses but they do not differ until around 128%
Now an extremely old comparison:
Now go out and be the best archetype glass-cannon you can be! Who cares if your survivability is limited along with your Super Stat choices you deal 12k(two 6k non-crit) damage with one specific fully-charged power!
Dear (Deity of choice) the quote font is extremely annoying on this forum..
And now back to my coffin to rest these brittle bones..
Some Archetypes require Zen to unlock.
You can get FreeForm slots without spending any money (I did it four times now).
Who are the paying people and who are the non-paying people?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The God of Champions Game Mechanics Knowledge strikes again. Thanks, Ayona. X)
Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
I am no god/goddess I am just an entity whose corporeal shell has been lost from the waking world...A simple undead and unkillable creature who just wishes for a stir-less slumber...My accomplishments and feats are exaggerated due to how infrequent that I arise from my coffin...In my eyes I was never a hero...I was just simply someone writing maps for unexplored continents and using trial and error in hopes of making sense of our world. A true pioneer who shared their rough findings in the hopes that someone more qualified would come along and correct my wrongs and dot my i's. Like the blind leading the blind I held my hand out and made the best of what I could when I could.
I have stopped being a champion a while ago when I reached the abyss. The impossible became my home and promised grounds...I died in the abyss but it could not bring itself to let the world know of it...So here I am...merely wishing for my name to disappear...What little I leave behind is merely for decoration...something that keeps my grave company as I sleep in my deathbed...
Except no one will dig a grave for me..I just have to do it myself I suppose..but without a corporeal shell it will prove most difficult...Though to many I have done the impossible before...just once more seems like a feasible request..Now where shall my mark reside so that it succumbs to the tests of time and is eventually forgotten.
It is what I truly want believe it or not.
In fact, in the example Ayonachan posted, the DR was lighter at the 552% total passive dmg (<- wow) point than at the the 128% one:
1428 / 1678 = 0.851 (R1)
4286 / 4822.6 = 0.888 (R1)
6172 / 6940.6 = 0.889 (R3)
89% of non-DR > 85%
(Edit: could be due to data imprecision/rounding, though- which I ran into myself when collecting- but still, no real change after 425% added? geezus)
Although my data w/ the FF's version of the DR is pretty clean and follows what I expected the decay to be like for dmg DR, trying similar tests on the soldier is giving me weird results, and going upto 350% total additive I'm not noticing a real extra decline at all. May have to look at a diff AT, but I wouldn't be able to get very high total passive dmg, so I dunno
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Lvl 40 Hybrid FF, no stars, no offense gear slotted, 0 Offense. Ref is FC's charged dmg on the tooltip. Only boosts from SS's, Ego's additive, passive (KM), toggle (Conc), and certain powers known (and I've confirmed) to be additive (CoEW, Retaliation, AOs) were used and counted (excluded Ego Surge cause its effects on old Concentration stacks replaced by new stacks during the Ego buff were giving me a headache to sort out and didn't prove essential to higher-end data):
+/- a couple % have to be given cause of the imprecision in all the various tooltip numbers in game (values >9.9 only display as integers.. just low precision all around). Also had to approximate charged FC's true base to be ~1188-9, in a land where players can somehow have 0 Ego (same mythical land could also have tooltips values that give 2-4 units of decimal precision- if only it were true..).
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Here's an initial fit dump.
boost = 0.605 / (0.115 + (0.47 + sumdmg)^(-1.857))
In this case, used the first set of data, expressed as 1+percentage. For example, the first few rows look like:
sumdmg boost
1.014000 1.014300
1.020000 1.021000
1.029000 1.029500
1.037000 1.038700
1.046000 1.048000
1.060000 1.062300
1.074000 1.077400
Here's what I mean by the fit not being perfect (residual errors); however it captures all data within the range above within 1 percentage point.
For comparison, here's a good residual plot from my int+cost reduction data:
I'll work on something else before coming back to this one.
Careful delineating it. It may not be a full curve, but a 1:1 ratio upto 96-105% (my guess is that the starting point for the DR/decay is at 100% passive dmg total, but that's just cause its a nice, convenient number for them to use as the starting point).
That table above assumes charged FC's base to be 1188 dmg. Due to data imprecision it could also be 1189; here's the table if it was 1189, in case its a better looking fit:
Edit: annd it could also go as low as 1887.296 (= 1204.5 / 1.449%); same Table if 1887.3 base (though it seems improbable):
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
eh, I wouldn't commit to that sort of extra work unless the initial data just isn't working in any reasonable way at first. Even then, can always just try to get more/diff data.
Guess we'll see.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Plus, meeda's right. Dropping the caps increases survivability for an AT. Nothing draws threat like a dps AT.
RIP Caine
I'd actually prefer it if they lessened the DR a bit on freeforms. It's silly-easy to hit soft caps now without even trying. I've been running parses for a bit now, and funny story: My archer is top dps. Like, not occasionally or from time to time. Every. Single. Run. I've been looking at the ATs and it's been that as a rule. If there's an AT, it's at the top of the dps pile. Sometimes (and frequently) to the tune of one AT doing 45% of the dps for the entire alert. And the Marksman isn't even in the top 3 for dps. I'd actually wager it's not even in the top 6, it's more based around control. Also, I'm not running with slouches, a few well known builders popped up during all of that.
Know that you pay money to be that much weaker than my totally free AT. 300 bucks, in fact, because you're a lifer. This doesn't bother you even a little? Honest truth, only one player topped the Marksman dps the whole time I was running. Foxiandfriends edged me out by 100 dps in one run. This was out of 4 levels of alerts without any xp boost items.
RIP Caine
Doesn't bother me, personally. <.< Because damage isn't everything. No Archetype can do what my Freeform does, even if my Freeform can't match up for damage. And Gold still gets plenty of benefits beyond Freeform, which apply to any Archetype characters made, too. S'no, I don't mind. X)
Cupid@Tool-box, stunningly radiant stag ready to play matchmaker between villain and arrow!
Vixon@Tool-box, frighteningly eager to summon despair for his adversaries!
Jebin Zedalu@Tool-box, elementalist weaponmaster. ...One of these things is not like the others!
Yeah, it's less vexing if you play hybrid types and the like.
I'm not talking gold vs silver, I'm talking Archetype vs Freeform. There's a pretty big difference, I'm not saying gold isn't worth it. More that across the board archetypes throw higher damage and that's a bit silly. A specialty archetype costs what, 10ish bucks? A freeform costs 50 bucks. If you bought a freeform to try to do dps, it's a bit unfair.
RIP Caine
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Interesting, it actually reflects how I gathered some of the data- the early points are closest to a proper random dist cause I was just increasing Ego's additive bonus by talents and adding nothing else. Some of the more ordered ones like the middle parts are due to fixing all other additive sources but only increasing Concentration stacks (cause one ya get high enough bonus, that's the easiest way to get more data points in the PH).
I wouldn't expect the residuals to be distributed well, partly due to the innate imprecision the game gives you for the various sources of data, but also since I couldn't really randomize the sources for the total additive bonus for the higher data sets (highest SS setup I can get puts a hard cap on the Ego ranged bonus, SS bonuses, 1x Conc bonus, and passive bonus I could get- from there had add things like the AOs and Retaliation, and stack Conc to go even higher).
Thanks for trying to delineate it, though. The initial fitted curve looks solid enough for general use.
Yup. Ultimately all ATs should be good for the role they are designated (if Hybrid, then that means decent at >1 one, but not a 'master of all'; support all get rezes and sufficient means of helping allies, everyone has some emergency heal or defensive cd beyond the block power, dps ATs get better threat management, no class goes w/o a fitting EU, etc). ATs being good at their role (ie. the Soldier_Blade topping the dps chart sometimes) is not necc a bad thing at all - FF's main benefit is versatility and customization- to a much, much more vast extent.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
+1. The fact that we have to mention "they need an energy unlock" explains perfectly what's wrong with the AT system as it stands.
The first part: Yeah. Hell, even with a slightly higher soft cap, it makes up for the lack of diversity. The second part? *sometimes* is the word I'm latching on to here. Not the... Right now it's almost comical. Lowest tier damage in most cases is the custom "be the hero you want to be" characters, frankenbuilds and special cases aside. The mid range is the "be the hero we made for you" heroes. Top tier is "be the vehicle you spent money to be". There's something off about that formula.
RIP Caine
I've spent more than $300 on this game and I use those filthy "free" ATs. I fail to draw the conclusion that someone using a free AT is not spending money. Despite the damage boost, ATs are still inferior to FFs. If the blade, marksmen, soldier were premium ATs, I would still choose buying FF over buying them any day because none of the ATs will ever be worth buying over a FF.
You can do more damage, Mr. Soldier? That's cute. I can tank and passively heal the entire group while doing pretty high dps with this FF.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
That's been covered too. ATs also need a bit of a buff, especially in the survivability department. And it *really* doesn't help that they throw so much more dps that they're threat magnets without a really good tank or basically using light attacks the entire time. You admit to using ATs, you can't tell me you don't find yourself having to hold back in order to keep your threat down. That's counter-intuitive to say the least, and definitely a quality of life issue. Especially since the biggest threat monsters in the game, non tank wise, are the very classes that are designed with no way to defend against it.
Check the sig. I'm about 4 grand into this game, I still use ATs. The 300 I mentioned is for LTS alone. You're kinda missing where I said freeforms need a buff and not the other way around. And just because you did spend the money, doesn't mean you have to in order to get so much more damage. about 1/3rd of my 40s are ATs, I'm not mindlessly hating on them. Hell, read after the squall, when I was talking about it's insane fragility. I got a few "well, just tone down your damage" responses. I'm thinking if I let the tank build threat for a bit? I shouldn't have to.
It depends on what you mean by "inferior". If your idea of superior is just throwing a crazy high amount of dps, an AT has a serious leg up on you. That's my point, plain and simple. That's what needs to be fixed. If we're gonna call versatility as a bonus, there should also be the freedom to throw absurd dps. Soft caps as they are do not work to the freeform's favor in this area, and they limit the versatility that's supposed to be the benefit to having a FF.
I'm not saying nerf the AT, I'm more saying level the playing field a tad. ATs would appreciate a bit more survivability, and I know I'd rather enjoy not having to gear my entire freeform to one single attack in order to throw similar dps to an AT.
RIP Caine
Thete might be a bug with the Blade AT to exceed that - something about stacking 5 bleeds in 1 second. But otherwise that should be top dps.
Is that before or after the recent crit/dodge changes? That seems rather ... high even though I know just how crazy those above powers are when combined.
It's actually not too affected by crit/dodge if you think about it:
Pri Dex - Expose Weakness is a debuff, not affected. Severity was affected by lower crit chance but there's still lots of flat bonuses.
Fire Snake - is a debuff, not affected
Preemptive Strikes - affects base damage, not affected
Ego Surge - Gives flat crit%, not affected
Imbue - Flat crit% again
Mental Storm - never critted in the first place
And unlike Cold Snap or Avenger Mastery, they don't really depend on effects that proc on crit.
Then throw in the damage increase from the Offense revamp and Justice Gear.
Game's ability balance is all types of wtf. Most ATs can't really take advantage of this; FFs easily can if they want to.
(mental storm's base dmg is slightly affected by the lower listed crit%, but its a very minor factor overall)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Lol! I most certainly can. I take CS / CC on the main attacks of every AT I can. Yes, even my blade and marksmen use CS. I do my best to steal and hold aggro while staying alive. Hold back? Wait for the tank? The answer most of the time is going to be "nope".
I saw what you said about the squall. It just made me wonder if I could turn it into dps that can tank. But I'm not about to waste money on buying an AT. I don't think FFs need a buff and I don't care if ATs get "fixed" or not. They are gimpy on purpose.
I guess I should just say I don't give a crap if a freeloader uses a free dps AT to kill himself. I also don't care if people play this game and never spend a dime. What other people do with their money is none of my business. As far as I'm concerned, having a new person feel awesome with a free AT because he did a crap-ton of damage is a great way to keep him/her around. Although, what would probably happen is they'd be irritated about dying so much.
The only thing ATs have going for them is higher damage (but not always). Otherwise? They are mostly built poorly. Redundant powers, odd stat choices, needing certain powers to even work for their role, other things I probably didn't think of. I would rather the devs not mess with ATs since despite their limitations, they're still good enough as is to play and enjoy the game with.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009