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Why do you want J-Gear fast?
spinnytop
Posts: 16,467 Arc User
Didn't really know how to word that title to really convey what I'm asking, so lemme just elaborate a bit.
Why do you care how soon you get Justice Gear?
I'm not asking "why do you want Justice Gear", though that surely would be a related question. Specifically, I'm wondering why anyone cares if their characters are fully geared up in J-Gear in four days, or two months.
In response to this thread I am expecting plenty of responses where people say I shouldn't be asking this question, or why I shouldn't be allowed to ask this question, or why I should feel bad for asking this question. Standard fare. Don't worry, I'll respond and we can have an existential argument about it
I'm also expecting some responses where people make sweeping generalizations about gamers and gamer society and all that. Again, standard fare. Will probably respond to these too.
I'm hoping for at least a few responses that contain direct answers to the question: personal reasons for wanting the gear as soon as possible. Will happily point out if the responder has made the mistake of saying only why they want the gear, rather than why they want it asap.
Pre-Responses: Since I'm expecting these specific responses, I'll respond to them ahead of time.
"I don't have a lot of time to play, that's why". Is a reason why you would want them to increase drop rates so you can have the gear sooner, but is not really the reason for why you want the gear as soon as possible.
"I want to get the grind over with so I can go back to doing what I want to do". Valid reason, but begs the question why you don't just go do what you want to do now, since you don't need J-Gear to do it.
"I don't want to be at a dis-advantage in pvp". The most easily accepted response. Builds being equal, gear can make a difference if we're talking about specific builds. Make sure to mention how pvpers got shafted yet again on gear rewards and how they proved us wrong and that the HG queues could be even more dead than they were.
"I don't want to be jealous of people who have it before me". An honest response (though I'll admit I'm being dishonest in saying that I actually expected anyone to give this as a response).
"It's the only thing I don't have, and I'm pretty much all about getting all the things". Again, a good reason for wanting to get the gear, but not for why you care how soon you get it.
"I'm impatient". A good response. Takes personal responsibility, though it's hard to use this to argue for CN making the gear take less time to get due to that personal acceptance.
"I need it for my build/I want to progress my character's power level". Again, a good reason for wanting the gear, but not for wanting it asap.
"I'm dying in five days". About as concrete a reason as you can have.
Adding this in from later in the thread since people are unclear:
Why do you care how soon you get Justice Gear?
I'm not asking "why do you want Justice Gear", though that surely would be a related question. Specifically, I'm wondering why anyone cares if their characters are fully geared up in J-Gear in four days, or two months.
In response to this thread I am expecting plenty of responses where people say I shouldn't be asking this question, or why I shouldn't be allowed to ask this question, or why I should feel bad for asking this question. Standard fare. Don't worry, I'll respond and we can have an existential argument about it
I'm also expecting some responses where people make sweeping generalizations about gamers and gamer society and all that. Again, standard fare. Will probably respond to these too.
I'm hoping for at least a few responses that contain direct answers to the question: personal reasons for wanting the gear as soon as possible. Will happily point out if the responder has made the mistake of saying only why they want the gear, rather than why they want it asap.
Pre-Responses: Since I'm expecting these specific responses, I'll respond to them ahead of time.
"I don't have a lot of time to play, that's why". Is a reason why you would want them to increase drop rates so you can have the gear sooner, but is not really the reason for why you want the gear as soon as possible.
"I want to get the grind over with so I can go back to doing what I want to do". Valid reason, but begs the question why you don't just go do what you want to do now, since you don't need J-Gear to do it.
"I don't want to be at a dis-advantage in pvp". The most easily accepted response. Builds being equal, gear can make a difference if we're talking about specific builds. Make sure to mention how pvpers got shafted yet again on gear rewards and how they proved us wrong and that the HG queues could be even more dead than they were.
"I don't want to be jealous of people who have it before me". An honest response (though I'll admit I'm being dishonest in saying that I actually expected anyone to give this as a response).
"It's the only thing I don't have, and I'm pretty much all about getting all the things". Again, a good reason for wanting to get the gear, but not for why you care how soon you get it.
"I'm impatient". A good response. Takes personal responsibility, though it's hard to use this to argue for CN making the gear take less time to get due to that personal acceptance.
"I need it for my build/I want to progress my character's power level". Again, a good reason for wanting the gear, but not for wanting it asap.
"I'm dying in five days". About as concrete a reason as you can have.
Adding this in from later in the thread since people are unclear:
SpinnyTop wrote:Since somebody asked, we can go ahead and define "fast" as: Having at least one, if not more than one character fully outfitted in Justice Gear after the first cycle to the extent that the player will feel a certain "completeness" regarding the amount of gear they have acquired. It is clear that there are many people who greatly want to be "done with" the Rampage system by the first cycle, and those are the people specifically that I am aiming this question at.
Post edited by spinnytop on
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I don't know if it matters, but that response is essentially a restatement of both, "I'm impatient," and "I just like getting all the new things available."
Me, I am very happy that the game reintroduced something cool and top-end that you cannot simply get with a weekend of grinding, spending a lot of G, or getting a lot of Zen.
Remember the Crafted Travel Powers? You could occasionally buy one from another player or in the AH, but they were so rare. Generally, you had to tough out a really, really long grind to get them.
I like when games have some things for which there are no shortcuts. I feel a greater sense of accomplishment when I actually get them.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
It's not that I absolutely want it fast...however, the only way to obtain it is through four Rampages. So I simply want to be done with the grind...and go back to having "fun". (my version of fun)
If I could play the game regularly, and get the tokens throughout running any content...then I couldn't care how long it took to get the gear...because I would be ok with knowing that I'm always working towards it.
Sure, I could simply stop the grind right now and go back to having "fun" (my version of fun) but being more powerful falls in line with my characters progression. So being as powerful as the game mechanically allows...makes my version of fun...even more fun.
If that makes any sense.
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Exactly!! No one does care, what can you do about it? What are you going to do about it? Stop playing? oh no most do not even support CO, most are free to play.
What value is in the item if everyone has it? Why do you deserve it?
It is RNG (random number generator)(really not guaranteed).....
This game is a refelction of general society right now, a bunch of socialists who do not want to pay for anything but get everything, poor me life is not fair.
So tired of hearing people in zone complain about gold/ff players, well news for you if we did not support the game, there would be no game for socialist err i mean f2p....
You want the strongest hero possible, but you can only attain that through content you don't actually like. Hence, you would rather get it done as quickly as possible.
That is a little different than any of the arguments you put out, Spinnytop. Related to what you said, but still significantly different.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
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You're missing my point. I didn't offer my question as an answer to Spinny's question. I'm legitimately wondering why someone would care about why other people want things as quickly as possible.
Additionally, the list of responses paints a very clear picture of what he considers to be the only acceptable answers anyway: Impatience, you're about to die or you want an edge in pvp. Any other answer got hand-waived as "oh you really want this instead".
2.) Games are often about goals, even when the goals are dumb.
3.) There's a lot of players interested in running the Rampages now, which makes putting good teams together easier. This will likely taper off.
4.) Once you have J-Gear, acquiring more J-Gear will theoretically be a little easier.
5.) There's probably a touch of OCD-like desire to "perfect" one's characters (see #2).
That said, it's all relative. I care about J-Gear right now relative to my other gaming goals. However gaming goals are pretty insignificant in the bigger picture (i.e. compared to non-gaming goals).
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I'm okay grinding towards something, and I'm okay only being able to get 1 set per rotation.
Really, it all boils down to the RNG for me, and many others (based on what I've seen here and in game). Give us an insane grind, fine, but don't subject us to luck along with it. That's where most of the complaints about J-gear acquirability are coming in.
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And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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And, personally, even though I don't want/have a need for Justice Gear, if obtaining it were the first new thing I had to do in months, I wouldn't rush through it. :P
If you play tons of alts (32 here), that a price you pay.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Yeah, like I said, I'm basically fine with that. Altaholics have a tough time making characters as strong as someone who only has a few (or one). As you said, that's the price.
2. most likely result if I ever get a peice- freebie giveaway.
3. I'm having fun being able to do the rampages. (ok on a ranged dps acting as spare healer.) When is the squid monster on?
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As long as we're dependent on Cryptic's capricious b**** of a random number generator, the Justice grind is going to pass well beyond "reasonable".
The current token drop rate gives rampages a slim chance of "success" even when you defeat the bad guys. I'd feel much better if they multiplied the token requirements by 10, then dropped between 1 and 10 tokens after every victory. That way, even if the RNG gives me a run of 1-token wins, as it often does with 200 Q-boxes, I've still made progress instead of wasting my time.
I think that's the big difference between Justice grinding and CTP grinding. CTP components were a grueling time sink, but it was constant forward progress, slow as it was. You never walked away from your time empty-handed as you can in rampages.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
That said, here is the reason I would if I was currently interested in gearing up characters again (after accumulating millions of acclaim to gear characters up, and farming APs, etc...only to have such gear rendered obsolete, my give a damn about gearing up in CO is at an all time low):
My interest, and enjoyment, in a game of this sort usually involves having a single (or small group of) main character at max level with max power level (or gear) while enjoying the combat mechanics of the game.
If I know that the character does not have the top tier of gear then the act of playing the character is less enjoyable for me. So getting that top tier gear as quickly as possible means increasing potential fun. If I am going to play for a year, getting the best gear in the first few days means enjoying that coming year more than if I do not get the gear until nearly the end of the year.
For me the act of leveling up is generally enjoyable, but the most enjoyment comes after I feel the character is "complete."
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Thats some wall of text you've contracted Agentitist . ( sorry Agent :< )
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I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Yes, the rest of you getting Justice Gear, will be that powerful. Imagine the Greatness. Of course when I get it, it's a different story...but that's another topic for another time.
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SCR gear has been good enough so far and you can get it in a timely manner.
A higher token requirement along with a much higher droprate would be enough of an illusion of progress to make me consider working towards Justice gear instead of just having lucked into enough tokens (around the heat death of the universe) when I poke at the rampages a few times per cycle.
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So in order to feel as powerful as Caliga, I'd have to intimately hug him?
C'mere, big boy
It must be painful knowing you have to grind for this gear just like the peasants do.
Just because people don't like the abysmal drop rate of tokens does not mean they want gear ASAP. Things are not so black and white.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
The bliss of everlasting geargasm?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I well actually enjoy the teamplay combat, and I understand the grindy, farming nature of MMOs. Otherwise I agree with both of these quotes highly. The grind is annoying, but it's do-able. I mean, I did farm Crafted Travel Powers before, up to rank 3 too.
But does it have to be random luck?
And if it does have to be random luck, why does it have to have odds that are so ridiculously low?
It's not even fun with odds being THAT low, when I'll need a whooping 24 TOKENS just to make ONE set of gear for just ONE of my level 40's. That's not fun. That's some BS.
And for what? What purpose? I mean don't they WANT to sell keys for the 10 Drifter Salvage needed per piece of gear?
My luck is terrible enough as it is. That's why I sell keys, not use them. If I were to open the boxes, my bad luck almost guarantees I'll never get a Jackpot. So I don't bother.
As Rampages are the de-facto only method of getting the tokens needed to craft the gear, it makes sense. But I don't want to be stuck doing rampages everytime I log in, watching the same cutscene over and over and watching everyone else on the team get tokens while I repeatedly get nothing. I don't even mind the Bind to Account aspect, really. It's ONLY the RANDOM CHANCE and LOW ODDS parts that really are really aggravatingly un-fun.
And that is the best part of it. It's definitely bringing teams together (and healers and tanks are for perhaps the first time ever, genuinely wanted and asked for on teams. It's a great time to be a tank or healer, and I don't mean role, I mean character builds.)
PS: A "tank" means you have to be able to pull and hold aggro/threat too, not just survive hits. With Freeform there's a wonderful diverse selection of ways to go about this, but Crippling Challenge is 9 out of 10 times necessary. Just keep that in mind if you're new to tanking.
PPS: A "healer" doesn't necessarily have to heal directly. The could heal passively or even just be applying Protection Field bubbles constantly. With Compassion scaling off PRE or REC there's a lot of diverse options available for Freeforms on this too.
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Well, as long as they know the difference, then the people who don't want it ASAP wouldn't have much of a reason to be posting in this thread would they? :]
I do want to reiterate that the question is "Why do you want it fast?". Some folks have responded to the question "Why do you want it at all?", which is fine, it's just not the question I was really asking (I already know several reasons why someone would want the gear).
The question also isn't whether the gear should drop via RNG or not. Personally I'd prefer non-RNG drops (even though that's generally less fair to players who have less time to play), but that's been discussed plenty of other places.
Since somebody asked, we can go ahead and define "fast" as: Having at least one, if not more than one character fully outfitted in Justice Gear after the first cycle to the extent that the player will feel a certain "completeness" regarding the amount of gear they have acquired. It is clear that there are many people who greatly want to be "done with" the Rampage system by the first cycle, and those are the people specifically that I am aiming this question at.
The rest of you who don't care how fast you get the gear and are just glad to have something new to do, this thread wasn't really aimed at you.... but feel free to post in it anyway :]
Also somebody asked why anyone would care about this. I enjoy asking people about their thoughts and opinions... it's not some grande quest I'm on, but not everything we find of interest has to be super important right? :]
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Hahaha... wow random chance is now considered earning?
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Very much like a costume piece on a boss or a device from a specific open mission. Yes, earning.
I'd like to have it faster than depending on random drops that may be awesome or complete crap.
Same reason why I don't even bother with the questionite secondary gear, or getting any mod above lvl 5
I already sleep walk through PvE content, why would I want to devote time to squeeze more effectiveness against content i can do on Elite and the only difference for me is that i need to 2 shot enemies instead of one shot them?
And all my builds are concept builds with a lot of subpar choices for flavour.
I mean, sure if you want to dedicate the time and effort on one character, get all this gear, the questionite secondaries and lvl 9 mods...
some of us do not have the time to do that on all our 16 characters and also have time to roleplay, which is kind of the whole point for me.
Sure, doign missions here and there, specially to get G so i can spend it on costuming, is ok. And honestly heroic silver merit gear and rank 5 mods are more than enough for me.
Id you got a small number of tokens just by doing the rampages without depending on RNG, then at least you would always be advancing towards the goal, but as someone pointed out, the current system means a lot of runs earning nothing at all, which really helps to foster the mentality of "Why even bother?"
Umm, if you think the justice gear isn't any better.. in my tank role the justice gear will be giving me around a 16% damage increase multiplicative and a 305 resistance boost and an 8% base damage increase. I think that's the very definition of better.
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16% from offense but it is only actually giving you about 130 offense up from legions which is as a guess is only giving about 3-4% more. FYI if you are reading the base damage amount, that amount is based off offense too. The crit gloves will be giving crit severity and less crit chance that legions, crit sev is bugged so it will only give half of what it say it is giving you if from gear or dex primary. Also it has massive DR on it so don't even think about using these gloves with dex mastery anyway. The speed type utility gives less cooldown reduction that legions which is currently one of the most OP stats. The two best parts of the new gear is the defense breastplate which gives more defense that legions defense while also giving health and then the 2 set bonus which gives more in every super stat which generally makes you better all around particularly if you use a stat that doesn't suffer DR such as CON and stats that are not going about 200-300 with it.
The gear is better, but not THAT much better.
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"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Actually with my build the increase from offense alone is 10% not including the bonus damage from super stats, and this is in tank role. The extra 6% comes from my increased crit severity at my crit rate. Since offense and crit severity are multiplicative that is a 16% increase to damage alone. 30% resistance is because of my set up where the offense and defense play off each other. And the 8% boost is because of the strength increase adding more to my enrage stat. So no, it's not just a minor increase.
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Severity is not multiplicative with the bonus from offense.
It works something like this:
(critchance*damage*basedamagebonus*rolebonus*(passive+forms+otherstuff1)*(offense+critseverity+otherstuff2))+((1-critchance)*damage*basedamagebonus*rolebonus*(passive+forms+otherstuff1)*(offense+otherstuff2))
I don't think you understand what the term "bandwagon" actually refers to.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
I never said it was, but it is multiplicative with base damage
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I don't get how you are managing to get 10% more from legions to justice in offense. The new gear has no offense anywhere other than on the full set bonus which isn't enough to get 10%. Also your crit rate will fall slightly using the gear.
Generally the new set bonus type thing just makes the more broken specs even more stupid in comparison to other specs. If you use vindicator the set bonus for 3 is so much better but if you don't it's actually better to use the 2 set with 1 legions.
Also of course it's a big step up from heroic's, legions is a big step up from heroics just because of the extra slot now getting a set bonus to give 25 in every super stat it's a massive jump up.
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Because my offense and defense play off each other thus when one goes up so does the other. That's how.
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If you get say 100 offense from somewhere. Vindicator will then give 20% to defense in other words 20 defense which will give 100% (20) to offense meaning it's now at 120. 20% of the 20 is 4 so basically you'll end up with 25 more offense in the end.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
In my case, I estimate Justice gear to give my main character a net 7.8% increase in non-AO DPS, based on an aggregation of Crit Chance increase, Offense increase, and other additive bonus increases - higher Superstats giving more innate bonuses and greater effects to Passive and Form. Sniper Rifle non-crit damage on the Cosmic test dummies increased by 8.58%
Defensively, based on an aggregation of HP increase and Defense increase, and adjusted for average Dodge/Avoidance, I estimate a 15.6% increase in survivability as well.
Justice gear isn't a complete improvement though. My Crit Severity actually decreased by 2% (moving from Legion's Piercing rather than most players using Precision), my avoidance by 11.2% and my AO/AD cooldown is 1 second slower.
The losses actually have an impact. I use Primary Int and Telekinetic Assault, so while most builds experience a Crit Severity gain due to superstats, I got a loss. This is made worse by TK Assault's innate Crit Chance bonus - the impact of a Crit Severity loss is bigger than what most builds with Pri. Int would see. It's offset by higher base damage and Crit Chance, but it also means could be much higher. Especially considering I measured this with an offensive passive.
My case is probably an outlier, and overall the net effect is an improvement. The main takeaway is that Justice gear is good, but it's not going to benefit all builds equally. I'd say Primary Ego, Str, Rec are going to be the biggest winners because they can use the innate Severity rating and have specs that benefit greatly from having higher superstats.
If you told me a Primary Rec Dragon's Claw build gains 16%, I'd find that completely believable, but even with that, it would still most likely parse lower than an equivalent build using another primary stat.
Please explain it to me. I am not very smart. Thanks.
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[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
My offense is going up significantly more than 125 points, and that's because of the build I use. My live Offense is 432 and my live Defense is 366, on test with an identical build using justice gear my Offense goes up to 753 and my Defense goes up to 480. That's a difference of 321 points in offense and 114 points in defense. My build accommodates this because I've set it up to, again, have offense and defense play off each other.
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But... :biggrin:
If you start with with something like 10% from offense, 100% severity and 30% crit chance.
Then you lets ignore all the forms and other bonuses for now.
Also, there aren't that many other bonuses you'd use that are additive with offense (stuff like the adv on dragon wrath, massacre or masterfull dodge, or the mods you get from Hi pan, or mental discipline), so lets ignore those too.
So in a simplified form we end up with. (I forgot to put in a few 1+ here and there)
(critchance*(1+offense+critseverity))+((1-critchance)*(1+offense))
Which is:
0.30*(1+0.1+1)+(1-0.3)*(1+0.1)=1.4
Now to up the number with 10% offense and lets do something like 20% severity (since a fifth of 30 is 6).
That gets you
0.30*(1+0.2+1.2)+(1-0.3)*(1+0.2)=1.56
So that is 1.56/1.4=1.114, so a 11.4% increase in damage.