The dodge nerf, I was wrong.

chalupaoffury

I... Did we get a defense boost? I run defense and offense primarily, and after the new patch I went back on the pts and just facerolled stuff. Kinda feels like self heals got a boost, as well. My stats dropped, but my character improved. I was nervous that I'd have to regear a few toons, it seems I was wrong.

I really wanna see the new math.

Anyone try to take an AT in and see how they fare? I've got a few 40 geared archetypes, if anyone wants to test it. I'm nervous to try to solo one of those.

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nepht

chalupaoffury wrote: »

I... Did we get a defense boost? I run defense and offense primarily, and after the new patch I went back on the pts and just facerolled stuff. Kinda feels like self heals got a boost, as well. My stats dropped, but my character improved. I was nervous that I'd have to regear a few toons, it seems I was wrong.

I really wanna see the new math.

Anyone try to take an AT in and see how they fare? I've got a few 40 geared archetypes, if anyone wants to test it. I'm nervous to try to solo one of those.

I have been hearing this too, some people are saying that their heals on PTS are UP. We might have jumped the gun on this dodge nerf without knowing all the facts.

pallihwtf

I have a toon on live that has 520 defense and 900 offense. It does alright. With these changes it will be even better?

agentnx5

Adapt.

Like I've said many times before (more than once daily in fact), I expect the price of Gambler's gems will go down and Impact prisms will go up. There are GOOD reasons I keep saying that.

I agree with those asking for a unbinding of Legion Gear, or at least a RetCon so we can adapt to these changes, all of us.


PS: Give Defiance a try on the PTS with maxed out CON. It's pretty awe inspiring. It's great change for non-dodge tank-ish archetypes like the Behemoth (which also benefits from offense a lot). Doubly nice because it's a very classic superhero theme (might tank).

pallihwtf wrote: »

I have a toon on live that has 520 defense and 900 offense. It does alright. With these changes it will be even better?

Yes, substantially so. Even though the actual numbers displayed on the character sheet will appear lower, it'll be multiplicative not additive.

twg042370

nepht wrote: »

might have jumped the gun on this dodge nerf without knowing all the facts.

On this forum? Really? Opinions are usually so sober and well-considered that this surprises me.

flamingbunnyman

agentnx5 wrote: »

pallihwtf wrote: »

I have a toon on live that has 520 defense and 900 offense. It does alright. With these changes it will be even better?

Yes, substantially so. Even though the actual numbers displayed on the character sheet will appear lower, it'll be multiplicative not additive.

I thought that was only true for Offense, not anything else?

theravenforce

chalupaoffury wrote: »

I... Did we get a defense boost? I run defense and offense primarily, and after the new patch I went back on the pts and just facerolled stuff. Kinda feels like self heals got a boost, as well. My stats dropped, but my character improved. I was nervous that I'd have to regear a few toons, it seems I was wrong.

I really wanna see the new math.

Anyone try to take an AT in and see how they fare? I've got a few 40 geared archetypes, if anyone wants to test it. I'm nervous to try to solo one of those.

No idea, but I have noticed I can hit substantially harder on the majority of my toons. I am considering re gearing to Defense in one instance. Or simply swapping a few things around so I can get a little more Defense.

I was/am very worried about my crowd controller, but then again, as long as I am not teamed with anyone and no other CCers are around me, I do perfectly fine, because I am in control.

nepht wrote: »

I have been hearing this too, some people are saying that their heals on PTS are UP. We might have jumped the gun on this dodge nerf without knowing all the facts.

My damage is really strange on the PTS in a good way, my healing... I'm actually about to test that. I am loving the ability to crit more often. :biggrin:

theravenforce

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

I thought that was only true for Offense, not anything else?

Defense hasn't been touched...yet

But I think Offensive healers may see a very nice increase. Offensive Healing will be quite rewarding I reckon.. :cool:

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spinnytop

gradii wrote: »

sorry. my offensive toons are glass on PTS, I don't see why everyone is so happy about this. bullet hell becomes nearly unplayable no matter how I gear her, and stacking defense ain't cutting it.

Well you're just ants at a picnic. How exactly are you defending yourself on your character? Give specifics... maybe folks can help you adjust your tactics. Would be a shame if everyone else is all badass and you're the only one being gimped

roughbearmattach

This is a weird question, but some folks were discussing a couple days ago on trade channel:

Does offense somehow boost healing? Particularly, does offense boost the numbers for powers that have a heal effect (on maintain, tap, or charge--not HoT)?

If so, the change in offense calculation might be increasing some healing powers.

spinnytop

roughbearmattach wrote: »

This is a weird question, but some folks were discussing a couple days ago on trade channel:

Does offense somehow boost healing? Particularly, does offense boost the numbers for powers that have a heal effect (on maintain, tap, or charge--not HoT)?

If so, the change in offense calculation might be increasing some healing powers.

Only thing I know of for certain is the Presence specializations. Time to go take off/put on some offense gear and see what happens :O

theravenforce

roughbearmattach wrote: »

This is a weird question, but some folks were discussing a couple days ago on trade channel:

Does offense somehow boost healing? Particularly, does offense boost the numbers for powers that have a heal effect (on maintain, tap, or charge--not HoT)?

If so, the change in offense calculation might be increasing some healing powers.

You can create powerful (relatively) healing based on the Offense stat. Presence's Grandeur + Repurpose, alongside doubling up Offense from a variety of spec trees can result in a nice lump of bonus healing AND now with the offense change a nice increase to damage.

theravenforce

gradii wrote: »

sorry. my offensive toons are glass on PTS, I don't see why everyone is so happy about this. bullet hell becomes nearly unplayable no matter how I gear her, and stacking defense ain't cutting it.

How do you mean?

IIRC, Bullet Hell uses Quarry? (or was it LR?)

Bionic Bullet has seen a sharp drop in dodge chance but always had a healthy level of defense to back it up.

I've only tested against holograms in PH Battle Station (5 Man Hard, whole room) and aside from stopping to click BCR or Stim Pack (HS), it's been relatively good, I'll just have to be more careful when going into combat, that's the only thing I've noticed.

deadman20

roughbearmattach wrote: »

This is a weird question, but some folks were discussing a couple days ago on trade channel:

Does offense somehow boost healing? Particularly, does offense boost the numbers for powers that have a heal effect (on maintain, tap, or charge--not HoT)?

If so, the change in offense calculation might be increasing some healing powers.

If you hover over the Offense stat on the character sheet it'll just say "+% all Damage strength". Not a clear indication of whether or not it affects healing, but "all" is the keyword in my theory.

Healing normally just uses the opposite formula to deal a negative amount of damage, thus recovering health. Since it's still considered a type of damage (A negative type), I'd assume that healing would be affected by Offense.


Side-note; why are people still capable of dodging heals? This is more noticeable when you use a HoT effect like the Eternal Spring Specialization from the Sentinel Tree.

spinnytop

On live, even with huge changes in Offense, my healing from powers did not change. If there is something, it would be on PTS.... and it would be a huge change to gameplay mechanics that they made no mention of whatsoever, so it seems kind of unlikely to be the case.

theravenforce

deadman20 wrote: »

Side-note; why are people still capable of dodging heals? This is more noticeable when you use a HoT effect like the Eternal Spring Specialization from the Sentinel Tree.

Ha, this has been a hilarious feature for ages. Kind of annoying though.

If you want to see the full extent of this, find an LR user and spam Circle of Radiant Glory they will block like crazy.

You can also use this power and other powers to build their FoTM stacks as every time they "dodge" (playing the animation of the forearm raise) they gain a stack.

As to why exactly.. I have no answer there.. perhaps dodge is hyperactive?

I know that in some weird instances with shielding people enemies can heal you for "DODGE - 1"...


Note: Yes, this is a real heal but it comes from enemies and has a green dmg floater.

crypticbuxom

With these changes to Offense and using the Presence Tree, your healer can be a more powerful healer and can now dish in some damage on the side. Even sacrifice some healing benefit from other sources to increase their own damage.

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flamingbunnyman

gradii wrote: »

who'd take it now?

Me.

/10char

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flamingbunnyman

Why? I don't take an offensive passive to tank, I take it to boost my offense. As long as I kill the other dude before I die, I'm winning.

Also, Quarry IS tons of heals. So I've got that covered already.

theravenforce

gradii wrote: »

she uses Quarry and has a decent amount of defense. (~200)

and becomes total glass. unplayable for me. which is why I'm switching her to LR, quarry is no longer a viable passive after the sledgehammer they hit it with. they even nerfed the ego and int it gives you. who'd take it now?

I'm in a similar situation with Bionic Bullet, build wise, I have Quarry and 50-57% Defense BUT I am not seeing this "total glass" situation.

Perhaps you may need to re-work the build?

I know that on LIVE I have an obscene amount of dodge (71.8%) and it goes down to around 38% on PTS.

I've been able to take on the entire room of 5 man hard without any dying, it's not as "god-mode" as it used to be but it is still works fine for me.

spinnytop

gradii wrote: »

she uses Quarry and has a decent amount of defense. (~200)

and becomes total glass. unplayable for me. which is why I'm switching her to LR, quarry is no longer a viable passive after the sledgehammer they hit it with. they even nerfed the ego and int it gives you. who'd take it now?

Someone who wants an offensive passive that buffs physical damage, synergizes well with Intelligence, and gives some dodge.

Someone who wants a passive that turns them into a tank probably wouldn't take it (similar to how someone who wants a passive that turns them into a tank wouldn't take Fiery Form), but then again why would someone be taking an offensive passive to get high amounts of survival? If not being a glass cannon is what's important to you, then it would be bizarre that you would be taking an offensive passive...

atompenguin

gradii wrote: »

quarry is no longer a viable passive after the sledgehammer they hit it with. they even nerfed the ego and int it gives you. who'd take it now?

Completely untrue.

Also, I'm probably not only going to keep it on the characters I do have it on, but I'll probably take it again sometime in the future.

crypticbuxom

I'll take Quarry so hard now! Oh no! I my stats aren't hitting over the diminished returns as much! 15 points in Ego and Int really isn't anything these days. Like a smiley face sticker on my A+ paper.

biffsmackwell

atompenguin wrote: »

Completely untrue.

Also, I'm probably not only going to keep it on the characters I do have it on, but I'll probably take it again sometime in the future.

The problem here is that Gradii's definition of "viable" seems to lie in the area of being unkillable, able to go one-on-one with cosmics and solo lairs. All things that are not intended in the game.

People have come to rely on being offensive and defensive all at once, because that was easily attained with stacking dodge. It's Cryptic's fault for making the changes that caused this and not fixing it in a timely manner, but the players have come to rely on this as a crutch. Claiming that they can't play the game regularly anymore because dodge is being fixed is a dead giveaway that it was their crutch.

Personally, these changes don't affect me at all. Wanna know my secret? I'm still building characters the way I did when I started playing the game. "This stat makes sense, I'll take that. This guy would have this move, I'll take that." I never latched onto any trends or relied on anything as a crutch (with one exception, back in the day - magician's dust :P).

Even with the "Day one nerfs" that so many people cried over, I still just built my characters in a way that made sense for them. And the game was much harder back then. Black Mist? That dude was a doozy. There used to be a mission where you have to take out a villain on top of that building in Westside where all the escaped convicts are that you had to take out, and boy that guy was a pain. The Gadroon leader guy in Millennium City always gave me trouble, too. It was a great feeling taking these guys out because they provided me a challenge with my whatever-building ways.

Fast forward to today, I'm still building characters the same, but the challenge level is so low now. The only time I'm challenged is when my entire team drops from Grab the Money and Run and I decide to try to beat it. The game is easy. The only thing these dodge nerfs are doing is making characters less godlike, but they're still godlike when working under their intended purposes.

gfnotaku1

Hey Biff, remember how hard Diamondback used to be? I'm pretty sure most of the new guys didn't know you could continue the mission (and are supposed to do it this way) by getting facerolled by him and respawning. Nowadays people usually kick his **** and walk RIGHT into the VIPER building.

jonsills

gfnotaku1 wrote: »

Hey Biff, remember how hard Diamondback used to be? I'm pretty sure most of the new guys didn't know you could continue the mission (and are supposed to do it this way) by getting facerolled by him and respawning. Nowadays people usually kick his **** and walk RIGHT into the VIPER building.

I never tried that. The mission says you're supposed to be captured, so I always made sure to lose that fight. (With Honey Badger, I had to literally stand there and try not to heal too much...)

I'll have to just go ahead and kick Diamondback's diamond backside next time, immersion-breaking as that may be.

finalslaps

agentnx5 wrote: »

Adapt.

Like I've said many times before (more than once daily in fact), I expect the price of Gambler's gems will go down and Impact prisms will go up. There are GOOD reasons I keep saying that.

I agree with those asking for a unbinding of Legion Gear, or at least a RetCon so we can adapt to these changes, all of us.


PS: Give Defiance a try on the PTS with maxed out CON. It's pretty awe inspiring. It's great change for non-dodge tank-ish archetypes like the Behemoth (which also benefits from offense a lot). Doubly nice because it's a very classic superhero theme (might tank).





Yes, substantially so. Even though the actual numbers displayed on the character sheet will appear lower, it'll be multiplicative not additive.

What are you talking about, Behemoth is weaker now that they can't get dodge and avoidance. Defense is unchanged. And seriously I doubt you ever played a Behemoth from start to finish. Defense isn't a stat Behemoth is reliant on they need to crit to get that 2% health back.

So in short Behemoth has no dodge/avoidance plus they crit less now so they can't get 2% health back via Specialization, one of the few ways they could regain health without being freeform.

fudgemonsta

finalslaps wrote: »

What are you talking about, Behemoth is weaker now that they can't get dodge and avoidance. Defense is unchanged. And seriously I doubt you ever played a Behemoth from start to finish. Defense isn't a stat Behemoth is reliant on they need to crit to get that 2% health back.

So in short Behemoth has no dodge/avoidance plus they crit less now so they can't get 2% health back via Specialization, one of the few ways they could regain health without being freeform.

Wait, Behemoth's had a 30%+ chance to crit?

Because, really, that's the only way the crit chance would go down bro. I'm looking right now and a single piece of crit strike gives at least 10%.

Better for those below the cap, but a bit harder when you reach the cap. So, wouldn't they crit more?

finalslaps

My Behemoth has a 36% chance to crit. Many people think Behemoth is really bad on the healing side but they can manage pretty well if you choose the right specializations. And I would take Dex/Crit over something like Str/Rec (if I had less than 30% crit chance that is) just to get the 2% health per crit going on. Plus critting more means you will still be up to par in dealing damage even if you don't have as much Str as the typical Behemoth.

I didn't bother taking the Armored Specialization (20% defense value increase from items).

kallethen

Crit chance (as well as Severity and Avoidance) aren't getting changed too much, from what I saw on the PTS. Yes, you'll have less chance, but if I remember right, I was only losing about 1/10th of my Critical Chance on Live.

It's Dodge that is facing a major adjustment. And I am of the same mindset as biff above. Except I can't really claim to be as much an old timer, I've been around for at least a year less than him...

Still. We didn't have lots of Dodge/Avoid before the On Alert patch. Yet the game was still very playable and enjoyable.

biffsmackwell

gfnotaku1 wrote: »

Hey Biff, remember how hard Diamondback used to be? I'm pretty sure most of the new guys didn't know you could continue the mission (and are supposed to do it this way) by getting facerolled by him and respawning. Nowadays people usually kick his **** and walk RIGHT into the VIPER building.

Heh, I was gonna mention him. I hated having to lose to him, so I would always try my best to get him down to like 5% health and then let him kill me. I never actually knew you could walk right in... d'oh!

I really do wish we had that kind of challenge level again. I rarely ever have to pay attention to any fights nowadays.

fudgemonsta

Wait, you can walk into the building on that mission?

Usually I'd have to strip gear and passive to have him kill me within a reasonable timespan...

gfnotaku1

Yep. Kick DB's **** and when he gets sucked into the sand (...they really need to fix that. Unless it's a feature. Still love seeing Omicron VIPERs and DB flailing as they sink into the ground) then walk right to the door and boom, you're in. Still in the Cell though IIRC.. either that or the hallway the cell is located in.

agentnx5

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

I thought that was only true for Offense, not anything else?

Two things. One is two of the PRE specializations, the other is something called Aggressive Stance.

I'll let you figure out the rest on your own from there. Not going to spoil the fun. Also, Finalslaps, I'm not crazy -- also note that I was talking both freeforms and behemoths. For obvious reasons the freeform taking Defiance is potentially (if designed/built appropriately) much stronger, I'll not argue that. I think you missed my point.

finalslaps

Didn't miss any point.

First you said to "adapt."
(Telling us that the situation can be compensated)

Then you mention the value of impact gems are going to increase and gambler gems are going to be less valuable.
(Either mentioning there's a need to adapt on the dodge/avoidance change OR the crit changes).

Then you talk about trying out Defiance with CON. (At this point I know you're talking about the dodge/avoidance nerf and how it's not going to change a thing since we're talking about defenses). Then you mention how great Defiance and CON stacking is. Well guess what that was always around and it's only one layer of the Behemoth's defense. Without dodge/avoidance Behemoth are going to take a big hit. Freeforms are going to have to CONFORM not ADAPT to one or two cookie cutter builds to just deal with PvE content.

So no I did not miss your point. You seem to have a hard time interpreting your own sentence however or are you just trying to avert yourself from what you just said using that run on sentence as something else?

kemmicals

Honestly? I'm not worried. I was just testing out my main on the PTS and I was shocking by the amount of damage I was puting out compared to my wimpy numbers on Live. My (sort of) low dodge wasn't really hampering me much at all, either.

I know I won't be hit too hard by this change, but I still think at least some people should get a retcon token in the very least. This change isn't worrying me, but that'll at least be a little bit of a comfort to those who were.

nepht

To be honest, doesnt matter what the facts are. A player on these forums has turned round and said hold up guys I might be barking up the wrong tree.

We all should take note of this.

fudgemonsta

nepht wrote: »

To be honest, doesnt matter what the facts are. A player on these forums has turned round and said hold up guys I might be barking up the wrong tree.

We all should take note of this.

Notes taken. Can we burn the witch now? =D

flamingbunnyman

fudgemonsta wrote: »

Notes taken. Can we burn the witch now? =D

But how do you know she's a witch?

fudgemonsta

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

But how do you know she's a witch?

...Hacks of course.

aetam1

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

But how do you know she's a witch?

Simple, witches burn, like wood. Wood floats in water, so does a duck. Therefore if she weights the same as a duck, she is a witch.

kenpojujitsu3

flamingbunnyman wrote: »

Me.

/10char

And me.

biffsmackwell wrote: »

The problem here is that [several people's] definition of "viable" seems to lie in the area of being unkillable, able to go one-on-one with cosmics and solo lairs. All things that are not intended in the game.

People have come to rely on being offensive and defensive all at once, because that was easily attained with stacking dodge. It's Cryptic's fault for making the changes that caused this and not fixing it in a timely manner, but the players have come to rely on this as a crutch. Claiming that they can't play the game regularly anymore because dodge is being fixed is a dead giveaway that it was their crutch.

Personally, these changes don't affect me at all. Wanna know my secret? I'm still building characters the way I did when I started playing the game. "This stat makes sense, I'll take that. This guy would have this move, I'll take that." I never latched onto any trends or relied on anything as a crutch (with one exception, back in the day - magician's dust :P).

Even with the "Day one nerfs" that so many people cried over, I still just built my characters in a way that made sense for them. And the game was much harder back then. Black Mist? That dude was a doozy. There used to be a mission where you have to take out a villain on top of that building in Westside where all the escaped convicts are that you had to take out, and boy that guy was a pain. The Gadroon leader guy in Millennium City always gave me trouble, too. It was a great feeling taking these guys out because they provided me a challenge with my whatever-building ways.

Fast forward to today, I'm still building characters the same, but the challenge level is so low now. The only time I'm challenged is when my entire team drops from Grab the Money and Run and I decide to try to beat it. The game is easy. The only thing these dodge nerfs are doing is making characters less godlike, but they're still godlike when working under their intended purposes.

beldin

biffsmackwell wrote: »

Even with the "Day one nerfs" that so many people cried over, I still just built my characters in a way that made sense for them. And the game was much harder back then. Black Mist? That dude was a doozy. There used to be a mission where you have to take out a villain on top of that building in Westside where all the escaped convicts are that you had to take out, and boy that guy was a pain.

The Black Mist of today is called Kevin Poe :biggrin:

And the guy on the building was "The brains behind the breakout", and i pretty much prefered that old version vs. the overlong VB-Style Crypt we have to do now instead.

But of course, having a flight travel-power made that much easier as if you had to fight your way up using the stairs, like i had to do on my first character

sparhawk

aetam1 wrote: »

Simple, witches burn, like wood. Wood floats in water, so does a duck. Therefore if she weights the same as a duck, she is a witch.

I see someone else got the reference. :biggrin:

thatcursedwolf

kallethen wrote: »

Crit chance (as well as Severity and Avoidance) aren't getting changed too much, from what I saw on the PTS. Yes, you'll have less chance, but if I remember right, I was only losing about 1/10th of my Critical Chance on Live.

It's Dodge that is facing a major adjustment. And I am of the same mindset as biff above. Except I can't really claim to be as much an old timer, I've been around for at least a year less than him...

Still. We didn't have lots of Dodge/Avoid before the On Alert patch. Yet the game was still very playable and enjoyable.

The only character of mine I'm even slightly concerned about with the dodge/avoid change is my Disciple AT. For being brawler role mine is very sturdy with siphoning strikes and ~30% dodge and ~60% avoidance (SCR primaries with R5 and under mods and Armadillo secondaries).

From one side it sounds like that dodge and avoidance would be floored and from the other side it sounds like only those well into DR will take a big hit. The PTS forum probably does have a thread that answers this but all the AT related threads I've read tend towards discussing making freeform available to silvers, LR, or assuming legion gear with R9 mods and 70%+ numbers.

If someone would post a basic break down of the effect on middle-of-the-road gear it'd be much appreciated.

(Disclosure: One of the main reasons I really like the Disciple AT is that I have to choose between high aoe damage with Ego Blade Frenzy and hope I can kill faster than I get killed or use Ego Blade with Siphoning Strikes and whittle one target down while hoping to out heal the incoming damage from the all the other mobs. Much more interesting than popping a godmode in my opinion.)

sparhawk wrote: »

I see someone else got the reference. :biggrin:

'e got better.

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biffsmackwell

gradii wrote: »

Viable means you don't die repeatedly, and do what your build is intended to do well. not unkillable but definitely not what happens to half my characters on pts.

What content are you doing? What level? What passives?

Recently, the only content I die repeatedly on is Grabs in a team full of lowbies (including myself). Aside from that, leveling 1 to 21, in full-on Brawler/Unstoppable, with a dodge and avoidance rating that's nothing to write home about (10%/20%), I'm doing just fine. I've died a total of 8 times so far. Those eight deaths were probably in that one Grab I did.

Had I taken a defensive passive and gone to Hybrid role, I'm sure I'd be surviving just fine.

I'll update on endgame stuff when I get there. But so far, going full offense with no dodge is easy peasy lemon squeezy.