What you are saying is, I'm a jerk for not doing work for others.
[...]
It never gets not weird seeing people use the word work when referring to playing video games.
Here's a tip: If you're in such a big hurry to avoid all the "work" of playing the game, just log out and go do something else, it's a lot faster than whatever method you're using.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I was accused of it in-game and was directed to this thread by them. This entire thread has been like a game of Telephone with each successive claim becoming more exaggerated than the last.
First it was a 30 second kill, then it was a 5 second kill. Now we're at instantaneous. There is nothing even close to reason in this thread.
Dude, the problem that's been brought up in this thread is not at all related to speedruns or yourself. The people who referred you to this thread are confuse or unknowleable of anything concerning speedruns and were probably mad at you because you left them behind during an alert and they wrongly assumed you were exploiting after reading this thread, something which any experienced player know ISN'T. I've seen and done fairly quick speedruns myself, they are perfectly legimate, so you can stop being so defensive, NOBODY accused you here.
What has been reported here though is people LITERALLY disappearing (not the running fast kind of disappearing, the instantly going *poof* kind) from the first room without going through the elevator and triggering the fight with Warlord within 5 sec of the alert starting. That's quite IMPOSSIBLE to achieve by any normal means. No speedrun can be THAT fast hence why something else is suspected. Speedruns aren't put into question, so please chill.
Perhaps they're using the same system to hack Champs. Not sure. Between me and you though? Its kinda pathethic, isnt it? I mean, people spent time coding a hacking software and finding out the coordinates to Warlord's boss-fight trigger just to appear there. Just to farm him. Just to drop his pieces.
Is it though? There was a time I would have thought it was purely pathetic, but now, maybe being older, I see there's also an aspect of desperation, the same kind that causes criminals to rob convenience stores or retailers. Perhaps those doing it are more to be pitied than reviled?
Pardon me for playing Devil's advocate (because I in fact agree with you quite a bit), but what if people are just doing it because they need the money? Don't be so naive people... The drop rates on some of these things have been nerfed by PWE to the point that the ONLY way to get them effectively is to pay other people to farm but any efficient means necessary. You pay them in globals, which is mostly gained by selling keys or items gotten with luck from keys. That creates one hell of an incentive to cheat. If you're aware there's such an incentive, you design with more care. The Depleted Uranium core alone can fetch as much as $25 to $50 in key-equivalent money from Zen used to purchase them.
And guess who sells the keys and limits the drop rate chance? Guess who has the ability to adjust coding and fix exploits? That's right, Cryptic/PWE. To be clear, I'm not saying that people who use exploits (gain an unfair advantage, in this case in terms of MMO wealth, by using exploits) shouldn't be blamed, but Cryptic/PWE also shares in the responsibility, particularly the do-nothing or slow reaction part about it.
Shall I list some notable past examples for those who don't remember?
Team Energy Surge exploit (not only negating all need for the energy management balance mechanic, but also was used to kill other players that were not even in a PvP setting when combined with a exploit of gas pellets).
Emote spamming when dead exploit, was used to crash zones. Took Cryptic a bit to catch on but they did account ban several people and took emotes offline entirely until it was fixed. Which I must say is what Cryptic SHOULD do from now on, they handled that one correctly.
Force Gyser not giving knock resistance properly until the 3-stacks-immunity-to-knocks code kicks in. This exploit has been known for over two years and STILL hasn't been fixed (any wonder why all FotM PvP builds use it? That's why.)
I could keep going on for quite awhile, but my point is this about human behavior:
There will always be people where if there's an easier method of getting to the wanted goal, they will take it regardless of risk, ethics, or how it affects others around them. In fact, the majority of humanity will do this, as cheating is evolutionary-hardwired into our brains as a means of ensuring optimal survival. Complex concepts like honor, compassion, and for-the-greater-good are a higher-level brain functions that are complicated and often conflict with our basic urges to always see your individual identities taken care of first. This is not good or evil, it's simply to be expected in a diverse population.
So?
So, we should be focusing this discussion on how to fix things and not where to ascertain blame. And yes, that doesn't mean I don't see fault with the people who abusing exploits, or fault with Cryptic/PWE for their lack of foresight and attention to detail. But I find this current line of discussion (particularly that raised by Voyagersix's overly defensive reaction) as excessive and non-productive.
To conclude, can we please refocus on how we might fix the alert's design, and not who to blame? I'd love to see the topic shift back to understanding what's actually going on (hyperbole exaggerations aside) and more importantly HOW Cryptic might fix the design. I think this community has enough smart & clever people to come up with a good series suggestion on that.
~edit~
My suggestion on how to fix it is to require ALL hostages to be rescued and all enemies to be defeated in the Harmon Labs alert. Simple change to mission requirements, big fix for gameplay effectiveness.
PS: You CAN run right to the last room before Harmon if you're tank-ish and fast enough to do it.
Having some elements similar to Mega Destroyer could work toward that end. Give Warlord some boss level underlings that you can fight along the way. If you don't, then they all pile on you when you get to Warlord. Give them group synergy, so that they aren't a problem when fought individually, but unsoloable when fought as a group. That provides a means to challenge strong groups, as well as means for weaker groups to succeed.
It would probably require some additional tweaks, but seems both workable and interesting. It's probably not in the budget, though. x3
Edit: Change the lock-out to lock-in, so that players cannot recover once they enter the boss fight, but they can leave the instance or wait for a rez.
Also, if you lose while fighting Warlord, he mugs you in a cutscene for (Players in Instance - Players in boss room)*100G and (Players in Instance - Players in boss room)*1000 Questionite. He also loots you inventory for all its Harmon PA device drops.
This means that there is no real risk of losing G or Q if you fight him with the team, and even if you go ahead of the team, they don't get locked out of the fight.
Another possibility is just dumping everyone in the Boss Room when the fight starts.
PS: You CAN run right to the last room before Harmon if you're tank-ish and fast enough to do it.
I don't think anyone's debating that. The claim seems to be that people are starting the boss fight before it's possible to leave the first room.
I've never tried, so does anyone know: Can the elevator be called/used before the first room is cleared?
If yes, then that's likely all that's happening; one person pulls the mobs away from the elevator, one opens it, the speedrunners go down.
I'd recommend locking the elevator until the room was cleared, but the speedrunners could still dash off once through it.
Another possibility is just dumping everyone in the Boss Room when the fight starts.
This would be the best suggestion. Your other idea would probably need new code, but this already exists, so it would just need to be implemented.
It would also solve the rarely-occurring issue of one person being a bit slow and having the force field pop up in their face, locking them out even though they were with the team the whole way.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Why not just make 'Clear rooms before Warlord' part of the mission. There goes the exploit.
Oh yea, then the "Speedrunners" would stop playing the game.
CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
And playing by myself since Aug 2009 Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Coming from City of Heroes, where "Defeat All" missions were plentiful and enemies loved to spawn inside walls, I am loathe to suggest killing everything as a solution. Especially when I've seen the occasional wall-spawner here, enemies can be knocked into walls for the same effect, and there's ways that "Defeat All" objectives can become incompletible (see Trainstopping).
I'd rather suggest "Rescue all Hostages" if you want an objective to slow down speedrunners.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I've never tried, so does anyone know: Can the elevator be called/used before the first room is cleared?
To my knowledge: No. I have tried it too before and the button wasn't flashing until the last mob was killed. Then again I haven't been to that part yet since Warlord has came around on the rotation because of these problems. Something may have changed since the last time Warlord was up.
1. When this occurs, are all 5 teamates present in the first area? If not does one load in late, or seemingly load in but not in your proximity? Basically asking, do you see this person at all?
2. Someone mentioned seeing someone (a partial glimpse anyway) of a character during the custscene. Was this person using the temporary become (ie did the costume look like it, or something else)?
I guess what I'm asking:
If team teleport/teleport to teammate has been disabled;
Could one in theory log out near the end of a warlord run, then log back in in the same location, regardless of what progress his 4 teammates have made?
Is it possible he logs back in and the queue reads him as queued and adds him to a pug just starting out, and he then downs warlord and bails?
If that's how it works, then the person would basically never leave the Boss room. Just log out until it resets, then log in, fight, get the reward, and repeat indefinitely. In my experience with getting disconnected during alerts, that doesn't happen, though. I just come back in at the starting area, and the map has no players or mobs. Logging out and getting disconnected might not be handled in the same way, however.
I've been in the Alert three times when the "exploit" happened. One of those times I was somewhat expecting it and trying to understand what happened: the individual appeared to just fly into the elevator door as if it wasn't there. This was just after the rest of the team started clearing the first room. A few seconds later the Warlord cutscene activated.
At this point I myself began to speed run towards Warlord (after clearing the room). All of the intervening mobs appeared to be in place and activated on me as if I was the first one through. Fighting Warlord was the player who ran through the elevator and one other teammate--I imagine a Team Teleport device may have been used to bring in the 2nd player.
Once they kill Warlord, you do get credit for having completed the alert (i.e. the globals), but you don't get credit for the Warlord kill or get a chance at this drop (i.e. the good stuff).
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
First alert I dropped into was a Harmon, and sure enough we hop into the elevator heading down just to have the loading bar for the travel down interrupted by the wall being blown up, 5 seconds later Warlord is talking about a tactical retreat and the Doucher in question has already crime computerd their butt out.
I flagged the name, sent a ticket but not expecting much.
I don't mind failing the alert but at least let me try to fight warlord and fail due to a firey patch 'o' doom and not cuz' of a speeder/glitcher.
I tested the elevator. You can activate it when the elevator doors are closed:
You can push up against the elevator doors and get the "Use Elevator" UI. You DO NOT need to wait for the "Call Elevator" button to activate. If someone is doing a speed run, they quickly zip over to the elevator, push against door until they see the "Use Elevator" UI, and then zip down the corridors to the last room.
In the last room, you can click on the scientist, and then click on a suit of power armor, even if enemies are attacking you--just make sure you have a bubble up or something. No problems.
The speedrun for this alert is VERY SPEEDY. If you have teleport, especially, you can get from the first room down to the cutscene in under a minute.
I now understand why some of the speedrunners are defensive/nervous: they are worried about being reported/flagged for doing a speed run, with no cheat involved. Nyrkes situation looks just like that to me.
HOWEVER, this is not disappearing when the force wall is still up before the alert begins. I have been in a speed run, but I have not personally seen the disappearing toon bit yet.
I tested the elevator. You can activate it when the elevator doors are closed:
You can push up against the elevator doors and get the "Use Elevator" UI. You DO NOT need to wait for the "Call Elevator" button to activate. If someone is doing a speed run, they quickly zip over to the elevator, push against door until they see the "Use Elevator" UI, and then zip down the corridors to the last room.
I would imagine that this is technically an exploit - it's the use of a bug to get an unintended result; in this case, the ability to get into an area in the mission before you're supposed to have access.
The solution seems rather simple: just move the trigger back a bit so that it can't be reached until the doors open.
However, that wouldn't stop anyone from speedrunning; they could still run ahead once past the door. It would add a minute or two to the run at most, and would still screw the non-speeders out of their chance at rewards.
I still think that the optimal solution is to add a teleport to the boss room during the cutscene.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I've noticed that a side effect of speed running is that it creates the perception that it's the "correct" way to play the alert. Then, people that have no hope of pulling it off, try to do so anyway, and you end up with a strung out team with most members repeatedly face planting. I've actually seen more botched speed runs than successful ones. The alert doesn't necessarily end up failing, but it takes much longer than if it had been done with teamwork.
The more I think about it, the more I like the teleport team to Boss solution. It seems like it would cause less friction between players than forcing the team to fight trash mobs.
Making the Depleted Uranium Core a PVP/Acclaim reward, in addition to being an alert drop, might also help some.
I wouldn't mind the Tp. At least I would have the chance to earn my 'W' versus the 60 second stance of shame for those that don't know about the crim 'putah that is :P
I wonder if it would be possible to make it so that the fight with Warlord is unable to start until all 5 players are in the final room with the suits.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I tested the elevator. You can activate it when the elevator doors are closed:
edited to save space check the last page :P .
Bear I think you have figured it out and factor in teleport to team ( that would make some people DISAPPEAR before peoples eyes ) . The fight below might cause the lag for people elsewhere in the alert thats the lag spikes explained. Also people that say it starts and ends right at the start, consider if a player takes 20 seconds longer than others to load it would look like that. It all makes sense now. Its not a hack or an exploit BUT it still breaks the TOS.
People are purposely locking other people out of the Warlord fight thats a **** move and breaks TOS. Its against TOS to obstruct other players from playing the game proper.
Thats why the speedrunners are defensive they know they have been naughty.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I wonder if it would be possible to make it so that the fight with Warlord is unable to start until all 5 players are in the final room with the suits.
I think they could, but it would be an auto-fail if anyone disconnected, or if a griefer decided to Teleport to Ren Cen as soon as the alert started.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I wonder if it would be possible to make it so that the fight with Warlord is unable to start until all 5 players are in the final room with the suits.
The existing script may be checking to see if every player in the room has a suit, not every player in the instance. Then again, changing that would allow somebody to grief the alert by never leaving the spawn point.
I like the rescue hostages idea. Make sure the trigger is a "press Z" activation with an interruptable timer on the NPC, not just a "kill spawn group" to avoid the aforementioned stuck-in-wall problem. That way, players have to deal with mobs in general, but the occasional wall-stuck mob can be tanked long enough to allow somebody else to free the hostage. (This would probably be easier if we didn't have to deal with the horrible specter of ARGENT Grenade Spam.)
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
All those players are confused. There is no agenda. It doesn't matter what players feel or believe. Only the facts have relevance here, not circumstantial evidence and not heresay. And since only Cryptic has access to the facts (the logs), this thread is just a witch hunt.
What's more likely here is that people are upset over their low-level characters not being carried through the Harmon Labs alert and are looking to lash out at someone.
Its not about any of that.
As someone who has experienced this, I'm not going to debate if its a hack or legit but for gods sake, if you're going to do it at least have the decency to let the other members of the alert know its happening so, you know, they don't lose out on the loot at the end.
I've noticed that a side effect of speed running is that it creates the perception that it's the "correct" way to play the alert. Then, people that have no hope of pulling it off, try to do so anyway, and you end up with a strung out team with most members repeatedly face planting. I've actually seen more botched speed runs than successful ones. The alert doesn't necessarily end up failing, but it takes much longer than if it had been done with teamwork.
The more I think about it, the more I like the teleport team to Boss solution. It seems like it would cause less friction between players than forcing the team to fight trash mobs.
Making the Depleted Uranium Core a PVP/Acclaim reward, in addition to being an alert drop, might also help some.
Yes, let's remove large parts of the content we have. All right, everyone together, let's all raise our fists and yell "YAY!"
...why am I the only one doing it?
EDIT - unless you mean automatically teleporting everyone to the boss when anyone starts it. Good idea in so far as making sure no one misses out, but still doesn't solve the whole speedrun "skip everything" issue.. then again, if that's an issue in warlord, then it's a pretty widespread issue in the game at large.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I wonder if it would be possible to make it so that the fight with Warlord is unable to start until all 5 players are in the final room with the suits.
Certainly possible, and it would be very desirable. It would prevent the runners to start the fight and letting the others behind a barrier, no rewards at end. It would prevent supposedly hackers to attack Warlord (and who knows? Maybe he's helpless without the start of a cutscene, it would explain why it's so fast to finish the alert for some people.
Get rid of this ******n barrier would also be an improvement. This is the only one custom alert with that kind of apparatus, and really annoying. Perhaps limitating its rise when all characters in the instance have gone once in the final room. It would enable slowers guys to catch the fight, with luck, before its end.
The existing script may be checking to see if every player in the room has a suit, not every player in the instance. Then again, changing that would allow somebody to grief the alert by never leaving the spawn point.
I like the rescue hostages idea. Make sure the trigger is a "press Z" activation with an interruptable timer on the NPC, not just a "kill spawn group" to avoid the aforementioned stuck-in-wall problem. That way, players have to deal with mobs in general, but the occasional wall-stuck mob can be tanked long enough to allow somebody else to free the hostage. (This would probably be easier if we didn't have to deal with the horrible specter of ARGENT Grenade Spam.)
Not sure I understand this. I always thought that you just had to talk to the lead scientist to get the laser to blow the wall. I typically run either a very durable tank toon or a high DPS toon, niether EVER have used a suit. In fact, I've only used a suit once on a lower level toon; and that was after months of playing the alert when I finally discovered there were suits - as I didn't ever see anyone using any in the early days.
So I guess my question is, is a power suit required right now, and if so, by how many?
Not sure I understand this. I always thought that you just had to talk to the lead scientist to get the laser to blow the wall. I typically run either a very durable tank toon or a high DPS toon, niether EVER have used a suit. In fact, I've only used a suit once on a lower level toon; and that was after months of playing the alert when I finally discovered there were suits - as I didn't ever see anyone using any in the early days.
So I guess my question is, is a power suit required right now, and if so, by how many?
I believe you have to grab one, but not necessarily equip it.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
No, not really. The power suits were really just an intro to the new AT/power armor re-ups at the time. For some I could see it being a help, but for others - especially the FF's - it ends up being a hassle. All those new powers to learn on the fly in a fight that was a pain in the **** to begin with when dealing with the perma-gank fire patches.
Put it this way, taking that power suit on my summoner would be a dopey move cuz' then I loose all 17+ pets to toss at Warly.
I believe you have to grab one, but not necessarily equip it.
Not sure that's the case, only because I never grabbed one, and never saw any repercussions. I've always superjumped on ahead to start wailing on Warlord, wondering why people were so slow. Now I know it's because they had to change clothes first
I believe you have to grab one, but not necessarily equip it.
It is necessary to equip it to trigger the cutscene. I can confirm this from last rotation everyone would pile up at the wall waiting for it to blow up so I went ahead and activated the power armor THEN the cutscene appeared finally.
So yeah one person in the party needs to at least activate their power armor device, but of course can deactivated it after the cutscene.
Ooooh, now I see why the speedrunners are so defensive! If you can go through the elevator without actually 'calling it up' than, yeah, it's exploitive. It's using the bad design of the elevator to skip ahead, something which is clearly not the intent... The solution is pushing the 'Use' trigger further back. Sure, it would add a few minutes to speedruns but, wow, suck it up.
As for people getting screwed out of the Warlord fight, yeah... Speedruns are fair game (when not using the aforementioned exploit), but I totally agree that the *super fast* speedruns really are a d**k move to do. I like running alerts as speedily as possible but I always clear the mobs on the direct path to the last room and wait for the rest of the group before engaging Warlord. It's a team-based game guys, if you want to do *super fast* speedruns than get other teammates that agree to do the same, otherwise you're wasting everybody else's time. Not everyone joining the alert is a lvl 6 looking to get carried and it's presumptious to think that everybody there is a undeserving of the reward.
Solutions to stop *super fast* speedruns:
- Fixing the elevator and possibly adding the obligation to clear the room (or a fixed number of mobs to avoid mobs stuck in the walls from messing up the alert) before being able to use it.
- In the second part of the alert, have hostages needing to be freed (or any other obligatory objective) before being able to open the way to Warlord.
Solutions for people who wish to speedrun:
- Add the option to join alerts without needing 4 other queued person (not unlike Monster Island).This would allow you to go in an alert by yourself or with just your one or 2 other friends to speedrun to your heart's content and not piss off a bunch of people who want to do it normally.
- Fixing the elevator and possibly adding the obligation to clear the room (or a fixed number of mobs to avoid mobs stuck in the walls from messing up the alert) before being able to use it.
- In the second part of the alert, have hostages needing to be freed (or any other obligatory objective) before being able to open the way to Warlord.
This is how I was hoping for Warlord to be like:
Objectives:
First room: Clear 25 mobs to bring elevator back online.
Take Elevator down.
Free 5 scientists being held hostage. First hostage in the U shape room as soon as you entered from the elevator. Next two would be in opposite corners of the large room. Last 2 hostage would be along the hallways.
Free Harmon in the Power Armor Room.
Receive Power Armor from Harmon (Only one player needs to do this)
Activate Armor and Blow away wall (Only one player needs to do this)
Defeat Warlord.
EDIT: Also to add, The Power Armor room that Harmon is in is locked until you complete all previous steps first.
Speed runs aren't fair game when you disallow other players who want to play it legit from even getting a chance at the fight and loot. The people who go in and fight without waiting for the rest of the team to show up, those are griefers. I'd report them.
Speed runs aren't fair game when you disallow other players who want to play it legit from even getting a chance at the fight and loot. The people who go in and fight without waiting for the rest of the team to show up, those are griefers. I'd report them.
But who would you blame in your report?
A group notifies people that they are doing a speedrun in TeamUp chat and that they will wait for others before engaging the boss. But, someone not in their group rushes into Warlord instead, starting the fight.
Unless you're there at Warlord's room to witness it, there is no way for you to know who went in first.
A group notifies people that they are doing a speedrun in TeamUp chat and that they will wait for others before engaging the boss. But, someone not in their group rushes into Warlord instead, starting the fight.
Unless you're there at Warlord's room to witness it, there is no way for you to know who went in first.
OH! OH! OH! o/ I know this one.
Well jumping down the lift shaft like an idiot ona suger rush before the lift has come is still an exploit so I'd say report all the speedrunners in the alert.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
(h) Impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the game or in Interactive Areas on the Site or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS) "spamming" or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or PWE employees;
(i) Engage in, encourage, or promote any illegal activity, or any activity that violates these Terms or the Rules of Conduct;
(j) Engage in any actions that defraud or attempt to defraud, scam or cheat others out of any items that have been earned through authorized game play;
Purposely locking out players out of the Warlord Fight is against ToS. Even making an argument for this type of speedrun is against TOS :P
I look forward to your counter argument U_U
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Just kidding. The ToS doesn't say that. But it doesn't say she DOESN'T either...
But who would you blame in your report?
The person who triggered the Warlord fight. The people who were waiting for the team did nothing wrong. The person who triggered Warlord will be the only one in the room. It will be easy to identify them.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
A group notifies people that they are doing a speedrun in TeamUp chat and that they will wait for others before engaging the boss. But, someone not in their group rushes into Warlord instead, starting the fight.
Unless you're there at Warlord's room to witness it, there is no way for you to know who went in first.
I don't have to know. The GM going over the report can check who of the five players I was teamed with at the time killed Warlord before the others could even get there. And I can tell them which of the four other players to rule out because they were fighting alongside me.
And this whole "I shouldn't have to hold people's hands through the alert" stuff, trying to make yourself the victim, doesn't work. I can handle myself in a Warlord fight just fine, but my character isn't built to bypass mobs and put up a heavy defense to survive 40 mobs on my tail. Does that mean I shouldn't get a chance at the rewards if you're on my team?
If you're going to do speed runs, do it in a full, pre-made team. Other people that aren't prepared for it shouldn't be punished. You're wasting their time.
Just kidding. The ToS doesn't say that. But it doesn't say she DOESN'T either...
The person who triggered the Warlord fight. The people who were waiting for the team did nothing wrong. The person who triggered Warlord will be the only one in the room. It will be easy to identify them.
I got accused of smelling like cupcakes by husband today , I am starting to wonder why I smell like baked confectionery >_>
Must be all the muffins I eat.
But yeah Bunneh is 100% right LOL we all missed the obvious XD
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
No one has done a 30 second speedrun. No one has magically appeared in Warlord's room. No one has killed Warlord in 5 seconds. There is no exploit. Do you know how to run through enemies... without dying? Come on. You're just embarassing yourself and undermining your own credibility. The logs will reveal nothing of the sort.
you're still not doing the entire alert in seconds......seconds.....NOT MINUTES.....SECONDS.
Film your speedruns, unless your speedruns take 30-40 seconds this thread is not about you.
you're still not doing the entire alert in seconds......seconds.....NOT MINUTES.....SECONDS.
Film your speedruns, unless your speedruns take 30-40 seconds this thread is not about you.
The thing is the forum figured out how they do it. Theres something hooky about the lift. It was just about then speedrunners started to pop up an go move along nothing to see here :P
Funneh that.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
the speedrun I got pugged into did take less than a minute and they cleared the entire first room.
once my server eventually let me in, I turned up in an all out battle in the first room. they then used the elevator and ran thru the rest. 3x 2GM plus MA tank(at least I assumed form the combat log he was tanking) and Warlord was dead fast. I got stuck on the collection of mobs blokcing the doorway, Three stooges style , I should have got a picture
Pharysene, Mean green etc(your fault for having such a longname), Duran and Battle bot punchy were in the group I got pugged with.
One of them hung around to wait for me to get the reward. Thanks Pharysene.
So no, the four I got pugged with weren't using an exploit,they were just very efficient.
I don't have to know. The GM going over the report can check who of the five players I was teamed with at the time killed Warlord before the others could even get there. And I can tell them which of the four other players to rule out because they were fighting alongside me.
And this whole "I shouldn't have to hold people's hands through the alert" stuff, trying to make yourself the victim, doesn't work. I can handle myself in a Warlord fight just fine, but my character isn't built to bypass mobs and put up a heavy defense to survive 40 mobs on my tail. Does that mean I shouldn't get a chance at the rewards if you're on my team?
If you're going to do speed runs, do it in a full, pre-made team. Other people that aren't prepared for it shouldn't be punished. You're wasting their time.
No. Even if you are locked out of the fight, Even if you are way back in the large center room after using the elevator, when Warlord dies, the drop be it an until token or if you're lucky a costume piece/DUC ALWAYS appears wherever your character was when warlord died. The money reward will again ALWAYS be waiting in the same place in the center of warlord's room. You do not miss out on a single reward unless you up and leave the alert before Warlord is defeated. Being locked out does not bar you from the rewards in this alert and it never has.
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It never gets not weird seeing people use the word work when referring to playing video games.
Here's a tip: If you're in such a big hurry to avoid all the "work" of playing the game, just log out and go do something else, it's a lot faster than whatever method you're using.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Dude, the problem that's been brought up in this thread is not at all related to speedruns or yourself. The people who referred you to this thread are confuse or unknowleable of anything concerning speedruns and were probably mad at you because you left them behind during an alert and they wrongly assumed you were exploiting after reading this thread, something which any experienced player know ISN'T. I've seen and done fairly quick speedruns myself, they are perfectly legimate, so you can stop being so defensive, NOBODY accused you here.
What has been reported here though is people LITERALLY disappearing (not the running fast kind of disappearing, the instantly going *poof* kind) from the first room without going through the elevator and triggering the fight with Warlord within 5 sec of the alert starting. That's quite IMPOSSIBLE to achieve by any normal means. No speedrun can be THAT fast hence why something else is suspected. Speedruns aren't put into question, so please chill.
Why so defensive?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Is it though? There was a time I would have thought it was purely pathetic, but now, maybe being older, I see there's also an aspect of desperation, the same kind that causes criminals to rob convenience stores or retailers. Perhaps those doing it are more to be pitied than reviled?
Pardon me for playing Devil's advocate (because I in fact agree with you quite a bit), but what if people are just doing it because they need the money? Don't be so naive people... The drop rates on some of these things have been nerfed by PWE to the point that the ONLY way to get them effectively is to pay other people to farm but any efficient means necessary. You pay them in globals, which is mostly gained by selling keys or items gotten with luck from keys. That creates one hell of an incentive to cheat. If you're aware there's such an incentive, you design with more care. The Depleted Uranium core alone can fetch as much as $25 to $50 in key-equivalent money from Zen used to purchase them.
And guess who sells the keys and limits the drop rate chance? Guess who has the ability to adjust coding and fix exploits? That's right, Cryptic/PWE. To be clear, I'm not saying that people who use exploits (gain an unfair advantage, in this case in terms of MMO wealth, by using exploits) shouldn't be blamed, but Cryptic/PWE also shares in the responsibility, particularly the do-nothing or slow reaction part about it.
Shall I list some notable past examples for those who don't remember?
Team Energy Surge exploit (not only negating all need for the energy management balance mechanic, but also was used to kill other players that were not even in a PvP setting when combined with a exploit of gas pellets).
Emote spamming when dead exploit, was used to crash zones. Took Cryptic a bit to catch on but they did account ban several people and took emotes offline entirely until it was fixed. Which I must say is what Cryptic SHOULD do from now on, they handled that one correctly.
Force Gyser not giving knock resistance properly until the 3-stacks-immunity-to-knocks code kicks in. This exploit has been known for over two years and STILL hasn't been fixed (any wonder why all FotM PvP builds use it? That's why.)
I could keep going on for quite awhile, but my point is this about human behavior:
There will always be people where if there's an easier method of getting to the wanted goal, they will take it regardless of risk, ethics, or how it affects others around them. In fact, the majority of humanity will do this, as cheating is evolutionary-hardwired into our brains as a means of ensuring optimal survival. Complex concepts like honor, compassion, and for-the-greater-good are a higher-level brain functions that are complicated and often conflict with our basic urges to always see your individual identities taken care of first. This is not good or evil, it's simply to be expected in a diverse population.
So?
So, we should be focusing this discussion on how to fix things and not where to ascertain blame. And yes, that doesn't mean I don't see fault with the people who abusing exploits, or fault with Cryptic/PWE for their lack of foresight and attention to detail. But I find this current line of discussion (particularly that raised by Voyagersix's overly defensive reaction) as excessive and non-productive.
To conclude, can we please refocus on how we might fix the alert's design, and not who to blame? I'd love to see the topic shift back to understanding what's actually going on (hyperbole exaggerations aside) and more importantly HOW Cryptic might fix the design. I think this community has enough smart & clever people to come up with a good series suggestion on that.
~edit~
My suggestion on how to fix it is to require ALL hostages to be rescued and all enemies to be defeated in the Harmon Labs alert. Simple change to mission requirements, big fix for gameplay effectiveness.
PS: You CAN run right to the last room before Harmon if you're tank-ish and fast enough to do it.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
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Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
It would probably require some additional tweaks, but seems both workable and interesting. It's probably not in the budget, though. x3
Edit: Change the lock-out to lock-in, so that players cannot recover once they enter the boss fight, but they can leave the instance or wait for a rez.
Also, if you lose while fighting Warlord, he mugs you in a cutscene for (Players in Instance - Players in boss room)*100G and (Players in Instance - Players in boss room)*1000 Questionite. He also loots you inventory for all its Harmon PA device drops.
This means that there is no real risk of losing G or Q if you fight him with the team, and even if you go ahead of the team, they don't get locked out of the fight.
Another possibility is just dumping everyone in the Boss Room when the fight starts.
I don't think anyone's debating that. The claim seems to be that people are starting the boss fight before it's possible to leave the first room.
I've never tried, so does anyone know: Can the elevator be called/used before the first room is cleared?
If yes, then that's likely all that's happening; one person pulls the mobs away from the elevator, one opens it, the speedrunners go down.
I'd recommend locking the elevator until the room was cleared, but the speedrunners could still dash off once through it.
This would be the best suggestion. Your other idea would probably need new code, but this already exists, so it would just need to be implemented.
It would also solve the rarely-occurring issue of one person being a bit slow and having the force field pop up in their face, locking them out even though they were with the team the whole way.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Oh yea, then the "Speedrunners" would stop playing the game.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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I'd rather suggest "Rescue all Hostages" if you want an objective to slow down speedrunners.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
To my knowledge: No. I have tried it too before and the button wasn't flashing until the last mob was killed. Then again I haven't been to that part yet since Warlord has came around on the rotation because of these problems. Something may have changed since the last time Warlord was up.
Handle: @drgmstr
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1. When this occurs, are all 5 teamates present in the first area? If not does one load in late, or seemingly load in but not in your proximity? Basically asking, do you see this person at all?
2. Someone mentioned seeing someone (a partial glimpse anyway) of a character during the custscene. Was this person using the temporary become (ie did the costume look like it, or something else)?
I guess what I'm asking:
If team teleport/teleport to teammate has been disabled;
Could one in theory log out near the end of a warlord run, then log back in in the same location, regardless of what progress his 4 teammates have made?
Is it possible he logs back in and the queue reads him as queued and adds him to a pug just starting out, and he then downs warlord and bails?
At this point I myself began to speed run towards Warlord (after clearing the room). All of the intervening mobs appeared to be in place and activated on me as if I was the first one through. Fighting Warlord was the player who ran through the elevator and one other teammate--I imagine a Team Teleport device may have been used to bring in the 2nd player.
Once they kill Warlord, you do get credit for having completed the alert (i.e. the globals), but you don't get credit for the Warlord kill or get a chance at this drop (i.e. the good stuff).
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
First alert I dropped into was a Harmon, and sure enough we hop into the elevator heading down just to have the loading bar for the travel down interrupted by the wall being blown up, 5 seconds later Warlord is talking about a tactical retreat and the Doucher in question has already crime computerd their butt out.
I flagged the name, sent a ticket but not expecting much.
I don't mind failing the alert but at least let me try to fight warlord and fail due to a firey patch 'o' doom and not cuz' of a speeder/glitcher.
v.v' lame.
You can push up against the elevator doors and get the "Use Elevator" UI. You DO NOT need to wait for the "Call Elevator" button to activate. If someone is doing a speed run, they quickly zip over to the elevator, push against door until they see the "Use Elevator" UI, and then zip down the corridors to the last room.
In the last room, you can click on the scientist, and then click on a suit of power armor, even if enemies are attacking you--just make sure you have a bubble up or something. No problems.
The speedrun for this alert is VERY SPEEDY. If you have teleport, especially, you can get from the first room down to the cutscene in under a minute.
I now understand why some of the speedrunners are defensive/nervous: they are worried about being reported/flagged for doing a speed run, with no cheat involved. Nyrkes situation looks just like that to me.
HOWEVER, this is not disappearing when the force wall is still up before the alert begins. I have been in a speed run, but I have not personally seen the disappearing toon bit yet.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I would imagine that this is technically an exploit - it's the use of a bug to get an unintended result; in this case, the ability to get into an area in the mission before you're supposed to have access.
The solution seems rather simple: just move the trigger back a bit so that it can't be reached until the doors open.
However, that wouldn't stop anyone from speedrunning; they could still run ahead once past the door. It would add a minute or two to the run at most, and would still screw the non-speeders out of their chance at rewards.
I still think that the optimal solution is to add a teleport to the boss room during the cutscene.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
The more I think about it, the more I like the teleport team to Boss solution. It seems like it would cause less friction between players than forcing the team to fight trash mobs.
Making the Depleted Uranium Core a PVP/Acclaim reward, in addition to being an alert drop, might also help some.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Bear I think you have figured it out and factor in teleport to team ( that would make some people DISAPPEAR before peoples eyes ) . The fight below might cause the lag for people elsewhere in the alert thats the lag spikes explained. Also people that say it starts and ends right at the start, consider if a player takes 20 seconds longer than others to load it would look like that. It all makes sense now. Its not a hack or an exploit BUT it still breaks the TOS.
People are purposely locking other people out of the Warlord fight thats a **** move and breaks TOS. Its against TOS to obstruct other players from playing the game proper.
Thats why the speedrunners are defensive they know they have been naughty.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I think they could, but it would be an auto-fail if anyone disconnected, or if a griefer decided to Teleport to Ren Cen as soon as the alert started.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
The existing script may be checking to see if every player in the room has a suit, not every player in the instance. Then again, changing that would allow somebody to grief the alert by never leaving the spawn point.
I like the rescue hostages idea. Make sure the trigger is a "press Z" activation with an interruptable timer on the NPC, not just a "kill spawn group" to avoid the aforementioned stuck-in-wall problem. That way, players have to deal with mobs in general, but the occasional wall-stuck mob can be tanked long enough to allow somebody else to free the hostage. (This would probably be easier if we didn't have to deal with the horrible specter of ARGENT Grenade Spam.)
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Its not about any of that.
As someone who has experienced this, I'm not going to debate if its a hack or legit but for gods sake, if you're going to do it at least have the decency to let the other members of the alert know its happening so, you know, they don't lose out on the loot at the end.
Its just rude and bad form.
Yes, let's remove large parts of the content we have. All right, everyone together, let's all raise our fists and yell "YAY!"
...why am I the only one doing it?
EDIT - unless you mean automatically teleporting everyone to the boss when anyone starts it. Good idea in so far as making sure no one misses out, but still doesn't solve the whole speedrun "skip everything" issue.. then again, if that's an issue in warlord, then it's a pretty widespread issue in the game at large.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Certainly possible, and it would be very desirable. It would prevent the runners to start the fight and letting the others behind a barrier, no rewards at end. It would prevent supposedly hackers to attack Warlord (and who knows? Maybe he's helpless without the start of a cutscene, it would explain why it's so fast to finish the alert for some people.
Get rid of this ******n barrier would also be an improvement. This is the only one custom alert with that kind of apparatus, and really annoying. Perhaps limitating its rise when all characters in the instance have gone once in the final room. It would enable slowers guys to catch the fight, with luck, before its end.
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@Moustic in game.
Gold since 2009. Lifetime since May 2012.
I play with freeforms AND archetypes.
Not sure I understand this. I always thought that you just had to talk to the lead scientist to get the laser to blow the wall. I typically run either a very durable tank toon or a high DPS toon, niether EVER have used a suit. In fact, I've only used a suit once on a lower level toon; and that was after months of playing the alert when I finally discovered there were suits - as I didn't ever see anyone using any in the early days.
So I guess my question is, is a power suit required right now, and if so, by how many?
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Put it this way, taking that power suit on my summoner would be a dopey move cuz' then I loose all 17+ pets to toss at Warly.
Not sure that's the case, only because I never grabbed one, and never saw any repercussions. I've always superjumped on ahead to start wailing on Warlord, wondering why people were so slow. Now I know it's because they had to change clothes first
It is necessary to equip it to trigger the cutscene. I can confirm this from last rotation everyone would pile up at the wall waiting for it to blow up so I went ahead and activated the power armor THEN the cutscene appeared finally.
So yeah one person in the party needs to at least activate their power armor device, but of course can deactivated it after the cutscene.
Handle: @drgmstr
"Embrace your dreams"
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As for people getting screwed out of the Warlord fight, yeah... Speedruns are fair game (when not using the aforementioned exploit), but I totally agree that the *super fast* speedruns really are a d**k move to do. I like running alerts as speedily as possible but I always clear the mobs on the direct path to the last room and wait for the rest of the group before engaging Warlord. It's a team-based game guys, if you want to do *super fast* speedruns than get other teammates that agree to do the same, otherwise you're wasting everybody else's time. Not everyone joining the alert is a lvl 6 looking to get carried and it's presumptious to think that everybody there is a undeserving of the reward.
Solutions to stop *super fast* speedruns:
- Fixing the elevator and possibly adding the obligation to clear the room (or a fixed number of mobs to avoid mobs stuck in the walls from messing up the alert) before being able to use it.
- In the second part of the alert, have hostages needing to be freed (or any other obligatory objective) before being able to open the way to Warlord.
Solutions for people who wish to speedrun:
- Add the option to join alerts without needing 4 other queued person (not unlike Monster Island).This would allow you to go in an alert by yourself or with just your one or 2 other friends to speedrun to your heart's content and not piss off a bunch of people who want to do it normally.
This is how I was hoping for Warlord to be like:
Objectives:
First room: Clear 25 mobs to bring elevator back online.
Take Elevator down.
Free 5 scientists being held hostage. First hostage in the U shape room as soon as you entered from the elevator. Next two would be in opposite corners of the large room. Last 2 hostage would be along the hallways.
Free Harmon in the Power Armor Room.
Receive Power Armor from Harmon (Only one player needs to do this)
Activate Armor and Blow away wall (Only one player needs to do this)
Defeat Warlord.
EDIT: Also to add, The Power Armor room that Harmon is in is locked until you complete all previous steps first.
Handle: @drgmstr
"Embrace your dreams"
Come Check Out My PRIMUS Database Page!
Speed runs aren't fair game when you disallow other players who want to play it legit from even getting a chance at the fight and loot. The people who go in and fight without waiting for the rest of the team to show up, those are griefers. I'd report them.
But who would you blame in your report?
A group notifies people that they are doing a speedrun in TeamUp chat and that they will wait for others before engaging the boss. But, someone not in their group rushes into Warlord instead, starting the fight.
Unless you're there at Warlord's room to witness it, there is no way for you to know who went in first.
OH! OH! OH! o/ I know this one.
Well jumping down the lift shaft like an idiot ona suger rush before the lift has come is still an exploit so I'd say report all the speedrunners in the alert.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
*sniffles*
Speedrunners are ppl too!
...kinda'
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
From the ToS. http://www.perfectworld.com/about/terms
You Cannot.
(h) Impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the game or in Interactive Areas on the Site or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS) "spamming" or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or PWE employees;
(i) Engage in, encourage, or promote any illegal activity, or any activity that violates these Terms or the Rules of Conduct;
(j) Engage in any actions that defraud or attempt to defraud, scam or cheat others out of any items that have been earned through authorized game play;
Purposely locking out players out of the Warlord Fight is against ToS. Even making an argument for this type of speedrun is against TOS :P
I look forward to your counter argument U_U
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
From the ToS:
"Nepht smells funny."
Just kidding. The ToS doesn't say that. But it doesn't say she DOESN'T either...
The person who triggered the Warlord fight. The people who were waiting for the team did nothing wrong. The person who triggered Warlord will be the only one in the room. It will be easy to identify them.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I don't have to know. The GM going over the report can check who of the five players I was teamed with at the time killed Warlord before the others could even get there. And I can tell them which of the four other players to rule out because they were fighting alongside me.
And this whole "I shouldn't have to hold people's hands through the alert" stuff, trying to make yourself the victim, doesn't work. I can handle myself in a Warlord fight just fine, but my character isn't built to bypass mobs and put up a heavy defense to survive 40 mobs on my tail. Does that mean I shouldn't get a chance at the rewards if you're on my team?
If you're going to do speed runs, do it in a full, pre-made team. Other people that aren't prepared for it shouldn't be punished. You're wasting their time.
I got accused of smelling like cupcakes by husband today , I am starting to wonder why I smell like baked confectionery >_>
Must be all the muffins I eat.
But yeah Bunneh is 100% right LOL we all missed the obvious XD
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
(Since he is a pastry chef, he does occasionally smell that way.)
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
you're still not doing the entire alert in seconds......seconds.....NOT MINUTES.....SECONDS.
Film your speedruns, unless your speedruns take 30-40 seconds this thread is not about you.
*licks you*
Hmmmm, muffins!!! :cool:
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
The thing is the forum figured out how they do it. Theres something hooky about the lift. It was just about then speedrunners started to pop up an go move along nothing to see here :P
Funneh that.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
once my server eventually let me in, I turned up in an all out battle in the first room. they then used the elevator and ran thru the rest. 3x 2GM plus MA tank(at least I assumed form the combat log he was tanking) and Warlord was dead fast. I got stuck on the collection of mobs blokcing the doorway, Three stooges style , I should have got a picture
Pharysene, Mean green etc(your fault for having such a longname), Duran and Battle bot punchy were in the group I got pugged with.
One of them hung around to wait for me to get the reward. Thanks Pharysene.
So no, the four I got pugged with weren't using an exploit,they were just very efficient.
So I can tell you who it isn't but not who it is.
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Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Ooh, baby. I heard he got a pipe . . .
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.