I think there is a pretty deep divide on the topic of villains. The calls for them kind of miss the fact that they don't end up as popular, though I have no scientific metrics (outside of an admission by one dev on one game) to back that up. I do know that the dark side tends to be noticeably less populated, and that's whether I'm on at peak times or "off" times (those aren't deeply meaningful terms when you talk about an international population, but you get the idea).
I liked having villains in City of Heroes, and I like the idea of playing a villain in DCUO, but neither game feels really villainous. Oh, sure, in DCUO, you get to beat up on cops, but I never feel like a villain, more of a minion. I'm really not sure how to improve the Archetype difference. I liked how the red side archetypes were actually darker, grittier versions of their blue side equivalents, but you already had some pretty dark stuff, like claws (back off, Biff, Cyber! ) on blue side. And, you still were either a lackey for the actual Big Bad, or just up to what would better be categorized as malicious mischief, than anything truly villainous.
If anything, given the content we've seen here, I don't want to see anything that major. Let this new crew get their feet wet, let us see what they can do, and then we can start asking for sweeping thematic changes.
As for the original topic, there are three such efforts underway, with one ready to open their Kickstarter (or whatever form it ends up taking) in a couple of months, and another with a sort of "open alpha" proof of concept (just running around in a city environment, ATM). I would check out what they are talking about; it's kind of interesting.
So the point you're trying to get across is that you hate Quentin Tarantino and Dane Cook, yes?
Lots of people do, but are afraid to say so. I think hate is a strong word, but Quentin is so overrated I get crosseyed. I do like a couple of his movies, but the ones that irk me:
Pulp Fiction: You know what murderers for hire don't do? Bark at their victims for 10 minutes before shooting. Also When working in pairs, they don't wear super snappy suits BOUND TO GET YOU NOTICED. This also pertains too robbing a coffeshop, replace suits with CRAZY SCREAMING.
Kill Bill 1: Knife fighting. The concept of a professional knifefighter is absurd. Think about it a moment. How would one train? In what venue would this skill be measured? Ack I hated that.
And again Tarantino goes loopy with the outfits. Elle Driver walks through a hospital in an overly stylizied nurse's outfit that looks like something I'd try to get an x gf to wear in private, also dons an eyepatch with a medical cross symbol en route to target. Yeah that would be a real subtle hit.
Uma Thurman boards a plane bound for Tokyo. With a sword. That she carries on the plane. Ugh.
Also, anyone of anything OTHER THAN JAPANESE DESCENT IS NOT GOING TO CONTROL THE YAKUZA. NO IF'S AND'S OR BUTT'S*.
Kill Bill 2: Woman is buried alive and with little to know room to even move her arm punches through a coffin and tunnels upwards through 6 feet of earth with terrifying speed. But she's super strong and trained, you say? Whatever, she got put in that grave w/ a blast of salt rock to the chest minutes earlier. Sigh.
Pai Mai or however that dude's name is spelled. Charicature and stupid.
I'm gonna stop, or I'll be here forever.
edit: Butts above had a notation, one last thing: the foot fetish.
Live and let live but do we need to be subjected to his personal fetish IN EVERY MOVIE HE DOES? Seriously Pam Grier was super hot back in the day and at the time Jackie Brown was released looked (imo) like a million bucks but that move could have been called " I'm Quentin, it's MY MOVIE, AND IT'S MOSTLY PAM GRIER'S FEET YOU WILL BE SEEING."
**I know your response wasn't directed at me J and you can lecture me later, but if you're a Tarantino fan I'm gonna give you a run for your money.
I know I keep beating on the drum, but one reason I love the idea of Foundry is that you can ESTABLISH cool villains for people to play, that have context and story around them.
Villain players... I'm less sure how well this works out, except as a funky pvp mode that everyone can choose sides on. (Hey, maybe a mutant registration act pvp map...
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I would probably look to incorporate some of the basic design concepts of the Hero System.
It is based on the idea that what your power is or looks like is unimportant for purpose of game mechanics compared to what it does.
This means that powers are defined as certain generic effects that are purchased. These effects can then be modified with advantages to differentiate their performance. These advantaged, or non advantaged, effects then have animations and special effects tied to them.
An example:
Power Name: Attack
Attack does X damage at melee range (10').
Advantages (AP = Advantage Point Cost, Maximum # of AP per power = 3):
Increased Damage I (1AP) Increases Damage from X to X*1.25.
Increased Damage II (1AP) Increases damage from X* 1.25 to X*1.50 (requires Increased Damage I)
Increased range I (1AP) This increases the range from melee to medium (50')
Increased range II (1 AP) This increases the range from medium to long (100', requires Increased Range I)
Area Effect (1 AP) This converts the attack from single target to cone, radius, or line. Note that the power's range is still melee unless Increased range is also taken.
Armor Piercing (1 AP) Any damage reduction possessed by the target in excess of Y is reduced by 50%.
Accurate (1 AP) Any dodge chance possessed by the target in excess of Z is reduced by 50%.
Knock Back (1-3 AP) This attack does KB based on the number of AP spent on this advantage.
and so on.
Once the character has designed his Attack mechanically he would select from a combination of animations.
Hand Blast: The character performs hand blast animations while his Attack is delivered.
Eye Blast: The character performs eye blast animations while his attack is delivered.
Brawling: The character performs might style animations while his attack is delivered.
Martial Arts: The character performs unarmed martial arts animations while his attack is delivered.
Pistols: The character performs pistol firing style animations while his Attack is delivered.
Rifle: The character performs rifle firing animations while his Attack is delivered.
Single Blade: The character performs single melee weapon animations while his attack is delivered.
and so on.
The next step would be to choose the visual effect of the attack (including colorization):
Fire
Sonics
Ice
Beam
Darkness
etc.
A character might go through this process for several Attacks in order to have his mega KB blast, his PBAOE, and so on.
I would bring back City of Heroes. That's it right there. Bring it back, and bring back the team that made it great.
Well.....let's say CoH2. Everything about the game mechanics stays the same. Same chat system. Updated graphics and coding, so that changes would be easier to implement.
Seriously, the developers must have gotten tired of the "please change bases" requests and the spaghetti string code bases were originally done in....although, there were some real beastly bases made with what we had. True creative genius.
Paragon Studios might have trouble reforming, since BABs is with Cryptic, Posi is too...umm...there are several that transitioned over to Cryptic once the closure came. Just...leave Emmert out of the deal, or perhaps limit his involvement to ideas and concepts only. The man does have good dreams and visions. Just really BAD implementation.
I PvP VERY little. Mainly because my classic themed toons with a rich story who are carefully crafted to have a fun, appropriately themed playstyle and to feel like a real hero in PvE tend to die like a biatch on their knees in PvP.
Meaning, I build theme-first, PvE effectiveness second, and then try PvP to... see my beautiful creations get pimp slapped and, um, non-consensually "made love to", by others.
IF I understand correctly, PvP is much harder to balance than PvE. If a game has even a decently balanced PvP, it should be relatively easy to keep PvE under control.
So... maybe if the game were balanced around PvP it would actually keep PvP from being such a small, reviled group. We might actually all be able to participate.
Or... I'm wrong and that's a terrible idea. What'ch'all think?
I PvP VERY little. Mainly because my classic themed toons with a rich story who are carefully crafted to have a fun, appropriately themed playstyle and to feel like a real hero in PvE tend to die like a biatch on their knees in PvP.
Meaning, I build theme-first, PvE effectiveness second, and then try PvP to... see my beautiful creations get pimp slapped and, um, non-consensually "made love to", by others.
IF I understand correctly, PvP is much harder to balance than PvE. If a game has even a decently balanced PvP, it should be relatively easy to keep PvE under control.
So... maybe if the game were balanced around PvP it would actually keep PvP from being such a small, reviled group. We might actually all be able to participate.
Or... I'm wrong and that's a terrible idea. What'ch'all think?
Well it's not a bad idea but not one spoken too often IMO.
But I dont think PVP is a small reviled group based on mechanics alone as some people that hang out there's behavior. While the ones that dont act like plum fools because they can get away with it, dont tend to say much which make it look like anything coming out of a PvPer's mouth is about having sexual relations with someone's parent or grandparent or sister or the likes, some explective, or some other nonsense while most people just either close the window or ignore but never actually address the behavior which more and more makes PVPers look like it consist of immature 11 year olds and under that are a bunch of sore losers or foul mouth braggers.
Of course people peep up and say "Oh all pvpers are not like that." But I ask, then why not address the situation when it happens instead of ignoring it? Or why not counter the amount of junk with your own words instead of staying silent about it? Remember chat is visible and cant count the ones that dont say anything or really dont participate much or only participate within their own clique and not with the outsiders. Silence might as well be acceptance of that behavior. No, not all pvpers are loud mouth foul mouth sore losers but it seems to be the accepted behavior judging by the silence of the rest.
If that behavior is rooted out, more people will do PvP. But if they have to risk being verbally abused every match and or chat banned by sore losers, then of course it will only stay a small community.
Well it's not a bad idea but not one spoken too often IMO.
....
If that behavior is rooted out, more people will do PvP. But if they have to risk being verbally abused every match and or chat banned by sore losers, then of course it will only stay a small community.
I have to agree. In my experience, I've seen too much PvP-related trolling to even consider it. I know not all of them are like this, but I don't want to go into something and hope I might run across one of the decent ones when the bad ones are up in your face.
I've seen PvPers take up RP as a means to pick fights and rub it in the faces of the loser.
I just don't get it, but then again I grew up in the age of 'co-op' gaming for Nintendo and I'm used to being on the same team with another player trying to do the same thing.
Well it's not a bad idea but not one spoken too often IMO.
But I dont think PVP is a small reviled group based on mechanics alone as some people that hang out there's behavior. While the ones that dont act like plum fools because they can get away with it, dont tend to say much which make it look like anything coming out of a PvPer's mouth is about having sexual relations with someone's parent or grandparent or sister or the likes, some explective, or some other nonsense while most people just either close the window or ignore but never actually address the behavior which more and more makes PVPers look like it consist of immature 11 year olds and under that are a bunch of sore losers or foul mouth braggers.
Of course people peep up and say "Oh all pvpers are not like that." But I ask, then why not address the situation when it happens instead of ignoring it? Or why not counter the amount of junk with your own words instead of staying silent about it? Remember chat is visible and cant count the ones that dont say anything or really dont participate much or only participate within their own clique and not with the outsiders. Silence might as well be acceptance of that behavior. No, not all pvpers are loud mouth foul mouth sore losers but it seems to be the accepted behavior judging by the silence of the rest.
If that behavior is rooted out, more people will do PvP. But if they have to risk being verbally abused every match and or chat banned by sore losers, then of course it will only stay a small community.
The issue I have with this is one of ideology - I love doing PVP when the mechanics are great (Guild Wars 1/2, MOBAs, some FPS games; This means an active and fair balance team is the biggest asset - if Warhammer Online had a solid balance team that didn't play favorites, it would have gone on the list). I love dealing with sportsmanlike invididuals, and I'm generally one myself (not always - I'm human, but I try to keep negativity to myself). I make an effort to compliment my team, and my opponent's, and engage in friendly banter (if I barely survive an encounter, I'll joke about it; If I get an epic duel with someone, I'll tell them that).
What I don't like doing, however, is forcing my opinion on other people (do note there's a difference between being blunt, and forcing my opinion; Even when giving advice/critique, I take into account the person's feelings and motivations. That sometimes doesn't come across, but when doing so I'm generally not here to make friends, I'm here to promote discussion, thought, and offer the benefits of my experience and talents). I also fully realize that people that are sore losers won't change that often. The evidence suggests that most of them can't come to terms with the fact they're doing anything wrong. It's very hard to change someone's mind about something if they can't realize there's a problem in the first place. Such people are also beneath my notice outside of a casual eyeroll as I go do something far more entertaining then wasting my time with an immature prat. You can fairly call that elitism - it is. As I stated earlier, however, elitism isn't a bad thing (at least, I'm pretty sure it was this thread anyway).
If it's unlikely to have an effect, and the individual isn't worth my time to spare the effort, I'm not going to bother. Those people don't want to change, and I don't care to bother in the attempt. Further, giving attention to such individuals just reinforces their behavior because generally that's a motivation for doing it. I don't feed their egos, and I go about my business because honestly, that grade-school jazz ain't worth my time.
What you're suggesting I do is the exact opposite of what you do with unruly children, when I have a fundamental issue with it (because it ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys, ain't my problem; If they were my own kid or someone I otherwise felt responsible for personally, you can guarantee I would be handling that matter in private. For random people I can't even begin to care about? Nah). That's not going to happen.
If they get out of line, report them for verbal harrassment, put them on ignore, and move on. Letting that stuff eat at you is what they want, and if it keeps you out of what they feel is 'their' PVP (however wrong that idea is), that's just fine for them. Screw that. Do PVP because it's fun for you, if it is, and live for those moments that are worth the time and effort. Otherwise, don't PVP. No one is forcing you to, after all.
Insert a break here to talk about some other stuff.
As far as PVP design goes, I think the best example of 'balance' came from having PVE and PVP separated in terms of how abilities work. Guild Wars 1 sometimes radically changed how certain skills worked in PVE and PVP. More then simple numbers changes, sometimes this involved entirely different mechanics. An example is one of the Ritualist Elite skills, Signet of Spirits - in PVE, it summons three spirits that all deal damage for a full minute. In PVP, it instead gave you an energy recover (the mechanic all classes used to fuel skills) for having a spirit in earshot (a standardized radius the game used). Other skills (like Empathy - in PVE it reduces damage done in addition to causing damage whenever the afflicted target attacks; in PVP, the damage reduction doesn't happen) only got minor tweaks and numbers changes.
It's worth noting that this is a lot more work (as you need a separate balance and design team in those cases), but it does help (not solve) the problem of having one core set of balance changes have to affect two entirely different game environments. This lets you have something like a long duration CC in PVE, but be able to adjust that ability in PVP so that it's either not game-breaking (while at the same time not making all CC pretty well useless), or not being an issue at all.
I really think that if you're going to include an option for PVP in any game, you need to take the time to do it right. The same can be said fo any feature you attempt to design, really, but so many games just implement PVP badly.
(Note: For an open skill customization system as frequently comes up, you're better off fully segregating PVE/PVP by having a separate 'build' for characters entering PVP that has different constraints for PVP. This again allows you to balance things specifically for the PVP section without having to try and make sure those changes aren't major nerfs to something that works fine in PVE without a problem. They're different beasts and need different considerations.)
I've thought on this tons, mostly because if I made an MMO it would be superhero-ish, though it probably wouldn't be strictly superheroes. It would probably be a bit more classic video game-ish Sci-Fi, so I suppose it'd probably end up being a bit on the anime side, reminiscent of games like Mega Man X. It also wouldn't be a typical MMO, but the genre really needs to get out of typical MMOs anyway, soooo...
With that said, if I did any kind of MMO with high customization there would be loads of tights options both because I know people love superheroes and because they make an excellent base to pile stuff onto.
For all intents and purposes I'd probably base it off of my own setting where most of my characters come from. Which is superheroic in nature when you really get down to it. It has almost all the staples in there somewhere, you've got mutants (aura users), technology users (there's even several high tech vigilante types in the actual story, as well as dangerous paramilitary types, both good and bad), magic users (there's a number of ancient forces anyone with even a weak aura can manipulate with enough practice). There's a huge amount of basic stuff I've come up with to draw lore from, enough so that content wouldn't be a problem as long as it could be afforded.
Setting:
Futuristic, likely 300 to 500 hundred years in the future. Space travel has been around for a while, but it's still cutting edge because it's too complicated for most people to understand and moving way too fast for most to keep up with. Deep space travel engineering is mostly the domain of people who in any setting would be considered super intelligent, though the products of it are used by just about everyone.
Civilizations of just about all species are colonizing other planets and much of the conflict comes from that early on, but later you start to fight ancient forces that vary from stuff that is borderline eldritch power to getting involved in a war between immortals that has been going on since before any of the current races even existed.
Some of the bad guy or bad-ish factions:
CELESTIAL: Paramilitary that is literally the core human civilization's government. They aren't outright fascist, but only because they know being such would very quickly cause uprisings of very dangerous people. As it stands, they've already pissed enough people off to fragment human civilization, and even if they do control a majority of it it's only about 40% of the whole. They seek control and limit all aura users within their borders as well as any and all technology, and barring that destroy them and it. Well, that and force anything and everything under their rule, obviously.
Psycho Gear Gang: Cyberpunks, and not the tree hugging type that try to avoid excess violence either. They're one of the largest Cyberpunk gangs and not much really can or needs to be said about them other than that they're extremely violent and live to cause as much terror, damage and chaos as possible. Those who remember the Freakshow already have an idea, though their tech is more cutting edge, even if still a bit juryrigged.
MORI: Getting into the more high risk level factions, the Mass Offensive Robotic Infantry. What CELESTIAL code named them the first time they ran into them, as they don't really have a name anyone knows of. When First Earth was destroyed, most thought the mad robots that took over the planet in the Human's absence were a byproduct of the robots who chose to stay behind and contain the chaos long enough for the planet to be evacuated. Truth is, they're something much more ancient that somehow got pulled to the planet, and not only are they still as haywire as they were before, but recently they've gained sentience...
Ty'Rian: These things are older than our universe and they seek to claim it as their own. When the last universe met its demise some of its inhabitants managed to survive it. Their story is one guaranteed to clash with ours, because the entity that created our universe also destroyed the last, and the Ty'Rian are none too happy about this. To make matters worse, during the first Ty'Rian war they were cast into a chaotic, self destructive mirror universe, which was expected to destroy them but instead only served to warp them into life sucking creatures far more powerful than they were to begin with.
Sons of Cyril/Ty'Rian Avatars: Early on, Cyril is one of the bad guys, and later on when he's on your side the Ty'Rian's own champions step up to the plate. This is all big news stuff, any time you're fighting these guys it's going to be plot critical and far more difficult than most other stuff you fight. Furthermore, the Avatars themselves are easily at least on par with a player character and aren't guaranteed to come alone. (Read: If you team up, they team up. There's no gang banging these guys.)
Character Creator:
Basically, the Champions creator with more sliders. It's really hard to fundamentally improve on something as good as this. Key difference would be that you'd have more sliders for individual things, with some costume part categories actually having sliders specifically for them, and most costume pieces would be extremely modular and broken up into smaller parts. Meaning that whether you're trying to come up with the perfect set of tights, power armor helmet or animal head, you do it by mixing and matching smaller parts. In turn, this means that any previous costume pack you buy can be mixed with current ones on a sub-body part basis, making the possible combination of pieces any given pack makes possible simply immeasurable. Also, to hell with clipping, if possible my game would have clipping detection in that cuts off anything that clips through another piece. This can be turned off too, so if clipping is what you want...
Powers:
You'd actually make powers from the ground up. You'd pick a base animation and FX, choose what kind of power it's supposed to be and start slapping attributes onto it. You have base attributes, which subtract from another area when you add them (I. E. gain power, lose speed) and "free points" which you can stick anywhere. There's two types of free points, ones which you gain from "leveling" (my game would be leveless, even if there is a power curve that both players and enemies exist on) and ones which you actually get from completing missions.
You can also chain animations together and create combo powers, and with the right attributes have those powers combo into other powers. More on that in combat. ...And before you ask, yes you can make a karate chop fires a projectile that heals allies. Does it make sense? That's up for you to decide.
You get to pick a plethora of travel/utility power type abilities that do different things including travel, combat mobility, mission utility and more, and missions are actually designed around them. Enhanced Stealth, the ability to pass through walls, wall/ceiling walking/running, combat dodges, etc, can all be used during gameplay to complete objectives, often even granting different outcomes to success. The best part, is these all come in their own system, so you don't have to waste power points on them.
Travel power speed actually ranks up on its own, but there's a set of points specific to travel powers that you can use to improve what they actually do. I. E. giving your general purpose travel the ability to pass through enemies, or improving the activation speed of your combat dodges and lunges.
Also, there's a transformations/alt build system that adds even more horizontal progression. Basically, you can transform (maybe you put on armor, maybe you become some kind of monster, maybe you reveal your true form, whatever) into a completely separate set of stats and powers, and these transformations unlock when you complete your first build. You can unlock more both through further "leveling" and completing certain missions, though there would be a cap on the max number you can get.
When you get a new build, it starts as your old build and you basically swap powers out as you go along for different ones. This is mostly to help out with the problem that content is going to be expecting you to have a full build by the time you're on your second build, you might still end up with something lopsided but at least it'll be semi functional until you get it fully outfitted. You can also just choose not to use it until it's done, of course.
Stats and Gear:
I'm actually not entirely solid on the stats and gear system. Mostly because a lot of what you'd find in a typical stats and gear system actually comes from the powers system. What is most likely to be the case is the stats system handles what you do well in general and it's in two layers: Base and extended. Base stats are a part of your character and static unless you respec, extended comes in the form of gear and can not only alter what you do well in terms of stats but even alter what your powers do, giving you the ability to enhance yourself differently temporarily for the mission at hand.
I never liked in games when you spec one way and suddenly you hit a rock that you can't pass because it expects you to be completely different, so I'd try to have alternate ways to complete any given mission, and even some missions specifically designed for certain types of mechanics. But assuming that your traditional method of going Solid Snake and sneaking around all the enemies wasn't working out for some reason, you could, for example, temporarily trade your enhanced stealth out for different utility powers via the gear system.
Combat:
Combat is beat-em-up-ish, but depending on the mission you'd find puzzle fights, and stealth is usually an option. Charge attacks do exist, but they're more like Megaman charge attacks where you can move while charging and getting hit with some kind of crowd control doesn't knock you out of the charge. Positioning is important, as attacks take up actual space, and you can dodge just about everything. Most enemies have some AI patterns, and bosses especially do, having entire routines they do. Bosses can and will combo you, and some can actually juggle entire groups of player characters, so blocking and dodging is a rather good idea.
Attacks have different attributes on them that can add stagger (if you play fighting games, this is hitstun, which if long enough lets you combo) juggle (keeps an opponent in the air better if they're launched) various types of stun and more. Where stats and statistic-ish powers do come in here is determining how vulnerable you are to a lot of these effects, and how well they work on your enemies. I. E. not all enemies are going to be able to put you in hitstun, but occasionally you are going to run into stuff that, depending on what your hitstun resistance is, will put you in a Streets of Rage style mob combo.
Before anyone asks, there's infinite protection. Any sort of juggle, hitstun combo or crowd control breaks if you repeat the same move too many times, and crowd control has an entire set of rules that work off a resource specifically for it. I don't feel like getting into all the specifics for it, but you have a resilience bar with several differently colored lines that determine how vulnerable you are to the three different groups of crowd control. Everyone starts at equilibrium, though you can raise what your equilibrium is and possibly even lower it with build choices.
The game has various resource meters you'd find in any game, but NONE of them function in any way like a mana system. Screw that, you're boring and tedious Mana/Energy, go die in a fire. Instead, you have stuff like a rage meter, special meter, desperation meter, etc, and you can choose which you have, what they effect and even what they do.
Just about every mission can at least be partially completed via stealth. Enemies have non-bullpie line of sight and hearing and if you're swift and quiet you can not only get the drop on them but sneak around them. Some enemies are more tricky though and may require specific build choices, because you have enemies that can sense auras, people with sensor technology and more. So some enemies you can just walk right by if you're careful, but others you'll need a stealth build to get past. You actually get mission completion bonuses the more enemies you go undetected by, as well, so it's a completely viable option.
Story and Allegiance:
As was noted earlier, I've got quite a bit of material I could weave a rich story out of, that covers just about every genre one could be interested in. At least as rich as City of Heroes was, if not more, which I mostly note because of how much people are like "I wish Champions Online had CoX story!" The base concept is even wide enough that new factions could be created to fill whatever niche people are asking for.
What's more interesting here is that your actions in various plots decides who's on your side, who's hostile to you and who's "meh." Some groups are inherently on your side, some are hostile to you and others really don't dislike you but wouldn't necessarily jump in to help you. You can actually piss off a group in whatever you chose for your starting area, and have people there hostile to you, though usually in the process you've pleased someone else with those actions. Open a window when you close a door so to speak. You can go full on villain if you want, and there's even cities dedicated to those types, not unlike Rogue Isles.
Given this, it can actually be useful to cover your tracks or be sneaky, and it might even be reason to have an alternate identity system specifically to allow the player to work for certain groups or carry out missions against others to an extent without causing bad blood.
Probably the most important part of this is the game is somewhat campaign based. There's three tiers of progression and at the end of the third tier there's the Endgame tier. What you do in each tier changes what you get in the next, though really only the first one or two tiers have that many branching options. Endgame is the only part with repeatable content, and in each tier you actually can't do all of the content. Meaning if you want to experience all the game has, you HAVE to roll alts. Content packages would actually come in a tiered fashion, and leveling would be very, very swift (like spamming Smashes on double XP swift), encouraging people to alt. That said, you CAN "reality hop" which is basically to join the team of someone who's followed a different path than you, and you basically gain their "reputation."
If it isn't painfully obvious, the game would actually have a campaign editor. This would more or less be the game's UGC, and good stuff that doesn't mangle the lore horribly may actually be added to the official game if the player(s) who made it are OK with this. The campaign editor would probably just be a version of what the internal team uses to develop, so that the team isn't wasting time supporting two separate development kits. In fact, if possible, I'd like players to be in on stuff as much as we can support, possibly even allowing them to submit costume pieces, music, sound effects and anything else. This is hard though, because while there are A LOT of talented people out there with nothing better to do with their time, submissions still have to be reviewed, but if it could be done it would.
The game probably wouldn't have a nemesis system at launch at least... But it if did, it might work through the campaign editor in some way. Basically, you'd be able to add some custom missions and set the type of link point to the main story they have, and besides that your nemesis would occasionally invade your missions in spots designed to let them, Megaman X boss-of-the-week style. There would be a number of premade personalities to select from, but you can edit their dialog text to make it character specific if you want.
If it isn't obvious, I've thought about this and tried very hard to come up with a "quality by customization" approach. Game design theory and philosophy is a fascination of mine because as a work of fiction the sky is your budget and with a good enough budget you can do anything, but your real difficulty is making something that people will accept.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The issue I have with this is one of ideology - I love doing PVP when the mechanics are great (Guild Wars 1/2, MOBAs, some FPS games; This means an active and fair balance team is the biggest asset - if Warhammer Online had a solid balance team that didn't play favorites, it would have gone on the list). I love dealing with sportsmanlike invididuals, and I'm generally one myself (not always - I'm human, but I try to keep negativity to myself). I make an effort to compliment my team, and my opponent's, and engage in friendly banter (if I barely survive an encounter, I'll joke about it; If I get an epic duel with someone, I'll tell them that).
What I don't like doing, however, is forcing my opinion on other people (do note there's a difference between being blunt, and forcing my opinion; Even when giving advice/critique, I take into account the person's feelings and motivations. That sometimes doesn't come across, but when doing so I'm generally not here to make friends, I'm here to promote discussion, thought, and offer the benefits of my experience and talents). I also fully realize that people that are sore losers won't change that often. The evidence suggests that most of them can't come to terms with the fact they're doing anything wrong. It's very hard to change someone's mind about something if they can't realize there's a problem in the first place. Such people are also beneath my notice outside of a casual eyeroll as I go do something far more entertaining then wasting my time with an immature prat. You can fairly call that elitism - it is. As I stated earlier, however, elitism isn't a bad thing (at least, I'm pretty sure it was this thread anyway).
If it's unlikely to have an effect, and the individual isn't worth my time to spare the effort, I'm not going to bother. Those people don't want to change, and I don't care to bother in the attempt. Further, giving attention to such individuals just reinforces their behavior because generally that's a motivation for doing it. I don't feed their egos, and I go about my business because honestly, that grade-school jazz ain't worth my time.
What you're suggesting I do is the exact opposite of what you do with unruly children, when I have a fundamental issue with it (because it ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys, ain't my problem; If they were my own kid or someone I otherwise felt responsible for personally, you can guarantee I would be handling that matter in private. For random people I can't even begin to care about? Nah). That's not going to happen.
If they get out of line, report them for verbal harrassment, put them on ignore, and move on. Letting that stuff eat at you is what they want, and if it keeps you out of what they feel is 'their' PVP (however wrong that idea is), that's just fine for them. Screw that. Do PVP because it's fun for you, if it is, and live for those moments that are worth the time and effort. Otherwise, don't PVP. No one is forcing you to, after all.
Insert a break here to talk about some other stuff.
As far as PVP design goes, I think the best example of 'balance' came from having PVE and PVP separated in terms of how abilities work. Guild Wars 1 sometimes radically changed how certain skills worked in PVE and PVP. More then simple numbers changes, sometimes this involved entirely different mechanics. An example is one of the Ritualist Elite skills, Signet of Spirits - in PVE, it summons three spirits that all deal damage for a full minute. In PVP, it instead gave you an energy recover (the mechanic all classes used to fuel skills) for having a spirit in earshot (a standardized radius the game used). Other skills (like Empathy - in PVE it reduces damage done in addition to causing damage whenever the afflicted target attacks; in PVP, the damage reduction doesn't happen) only got minor tweaks and numbers changes.
It's worth noting that this is a lot more work (as you need a separate balance and design team in those cases), but it does help (not solve) the problem of having one core set of balance changes have to affect two entirely different game environments. This lets you have something like a long duration CC in PVE, but be able to adjust that ability in PVP so that it's either not game-breaking (while at the same time not making all CC pretty well useless), or not being an issue at all.
I really think that if you're going to include an option for PVP in any game, you need to take the time to do it right. The same can be said fo any feature you attempt to design, really, but so many games just implement PVP badly.
(Note: For an open skill customization system as frequently comes up, you're better off fully segregating PVE/PVP by having a separate 'build' for characters entering PVP that has different constraints for PVP. This again allows you to balance things specifically for the PVP section without having to try and make sure those changes aren't major nerfs to something that works fine in PVE without a problem. They're different beasts and need different considerations.)
Ah yes, you see. I'm not saying give attention to to "children" I'm saying just let people know that all PvPers are not "children" instead of retreating to the "elite internal group of friends". Because if you keep it all within the elit group of friends that no one know even exist, then the only one visible doing all the talking is the ones that cauing the trouble. People cant judge someting they cant see. If all they see is foolishness, then there is nothign else to go by if there isnt the opposite.
Even if it's simply as saying "good game" to ya opponent in public chat instead of some back room away from everything.
I'm saying people are quick to peep up when someone see that PvP is ran by the "children" but yet, as you stated, they are there in their own group staying to themselves among others like them only talking to others like them and not really interacting with anyone outside that group. Basically invisible.
But what is visible is the "children" behavior and since the other side, the "elite" is invisible because they basically separate themseves and chat away from it, all a person will see is the "children's" nonsense. If you see a bunch a nonsense PvP stuff happening in the channel instead of cutting it off and basically let it ruin the rep of PvP even further. Have a match fight soemone even a friend in public and say "good game" or something and people will see that and that shows that not everyone is PvP trouble makers. AKA, like when dealign with children sometimes, set the example, show them how it's supposed to and or can be done. You dont have to say two words to them. But as with children doing nothing is about the same thing as agreeing.
But on the flip side, it's funny how people dont hesistate to chastice someone that they view as they dont agree with (not talking about you but in general) or think is trolling but seem afraid to speak up and all of a sudden dont want to "force their view" on someone when it's bad behavior that is detrimental to the health of a certain aspect of the game. But wont hesitate to get on someone case about a misplaced comma or period, or costume choice.
Ah yes, you see. I'm not saying give attention to to "children" I'm saying just let people know that all PvPers are not "children" instead of retreating to the "elite internal group of friends". Because if you keep it all within the elit group of friends that no one know even exist, then the only one visible doing all the talking is the ones that cauing the trouble. People cant judge someting they cant see. If all they see is foolishness, then there is nothign else to go by if there isnt the opposite.
Even if it's simply as saying "good game" to ya opponent in public chat instead of some back room away from everything.
I'm saying people are quick to peep up when someone see that PvP is ran by the "children" but yet, as you stated, they are there in their own group staying to themselves among others like them only talking to others like them and not really interacting with anyone outside that group. Basically invisible.
But what is visible is the "children" behavior and since the other side, the "elite" is invisible because they basically separate themseves and chat away from it, all a person will see is the "children's" nonsense. If you see a bunch a nonsense PvP stuff happening in the channel instead of cutting it off and basically let it ruin the rep of PvP even further. Have a match fight soemone even a friend in public and say "good game" or something and people will see that and that shows that not everyone is PvP trouble makers. AKA, like when dealign with children sometimes, set the example, show them how it's supposed to and or can be done. You dont have to say two words to them. But as with children doing nothing is about the same thing as agreeing.
You can't expect a community to police itself - it can happen, but it's not something you should count on happening. What's the more likely scenario is encouraging people to actively report the problem individuals and applying appropriate measures (time bans and for people that are habitual offenders, possibly account bans if they can't learn what the problem was). You're putting a lot of the 'problem' with the perception of the PVP community on the PVP players, themselves, when it's not a majority of that population that is the problem.
It's a bunch of loud, obnoxious, vocal derpensteins. If you're really jazzed by what they say, you need to report'em and let the moderators handle them (provided that the moderators can do something about it; Some of the stuff people take as offensive is hysterically minor junk, and yet they treat it like someone committed murder).
Solid moderation is a necessity. However, at the same time, it's reactionary and doesn't
always fix the problem. It's worth noting also that some people just aren't cut out for PVP, and that's not a bad thing. If you try it and don't like it (regardless of any verbal harrassment that goes on - you should be reporting that based on severity; Your mileage may vary, and probably will), then cleaning up the community likely isn't going to change that fact. You balance and clean up the community for the dedicated or even semi-casual PVP crowd to make those players happy, not so that Mr. Fluffy Carebear* can enjoy it. That's just bad policy.
(*DISCLAIMER: I don't think anyone is as bad as what I consider a Mr. Fluffy Carebear in this thread, at all. I mean the kind of person that faints at even the slightest suggestion of negativity, or gets upset because OH NO! They said bad things on after-hours TV! The horror. What's sad is I've actually had to deal with that kind of person before and it's hard to be sympathetic for someone that lets so much stuff bother them...)
,...when it's not a majority of that population that is the problem.
It's a bunch of loud, obnoxious, vocal derpensteins.
Here, is the point I'm making. I know this you know this but from a visble stand point, it sure as hell dont look like this is the case. Why? Because this minority speaks, speaks often, and usually loud, and I'm talking about the little jabs. No no, I seen quite often stuff that either is or should be clearly against the rules like insulting people for either their actual or assumed sexual orientation, various insulting words, words that probably and is known to be insulting to majority of people, to a specific race and things of that nature. If the mods cant do anything about that, then what is the point of them and what is the point of putting it in the rules as against the rules?
And of course what insults one person may not insult everyone. That is the nature of things. some people probably dont care if they called the n word over and over and over or called gay, or accuse their family members of being such. To others it may be insulting. Apparently it's is reasonable to be insulted given that in the conduct rules, that type of behavior is apparently supposed to be not allowed. COuld they grow thicker skin? Of course. Then again that could be said about anything and everything which would nullify the point of 90% of the rules. Got a bug that is annoying ya? Grow thicker skin and deal with it. Someone called your family a bunch of lazy black criminals? Grow thicker skin deal with it. Someone harass you day and night because they think you are homosexual and continiously say you will burn in hell and that you should be murdered? (Yes I seen someone say this many times to another person. Apparently no one give a crap as every so often since Feb. He's at it again.) But grow thicker skin get over it. Someone telling you slit your wrist and kill yourself and hope your entire family do the same? Gorw thicker skin get over it?
If a person is not allowed to be insulted by anything and it's up the receiver and it's their fault they fell insulted, then what is the point of any rules dealing with code of conduct in game? People to one person or another everything is small and petty but to that person it may be a big deal. DOnt know they life story, hell they might have just went through someone a family member killing themselves recently and may not think someone else suggesting they should slit their wrist is very funny. Of course the other person dont know. They never bother to ask. They just assume it's the other person's duty to grow thicker skin. But when they are insulted, they feel they have a right to be insulted and the rule they want to tell everyone one, grow thicker skin, no longer applies to them.
Of coruse a line must be drawn and standard set, but isnt that what the rules are for? Apparently either the mods are swamped or dont care, but if all a person see is rude obnoxious behavior, then it looks like that is what PVPers are like. If the other ones remain silent they cant be counted even though majority of the folks may not be loud rude obnoxious, but where are they. People dont see too many good games, or people not being obnoxious even though supposedly majority of the people that do PVP isnt like that but yet majority of the visible convo is obxnoisious and rude to down right insulting. Only time we seem to hear about the ones that isnt fitting the ill definition of PVPer is on the forum when they say "Well majority of us dont do that." Oh really? if that the case why is majority of pvp chatter rude nonsense? Is it a rule that in order to speak in chat ya have to rude and if ya not you have to be silent or only talk among friends? If there are as many non-rude peopel that actually pvp as they say there are then the rude obnoxious comments should be very far and few in between relatively. They should be drowned out by the majority of the sportsmanship speech that goes on there by "majority" of the people. Not the other way around.
Humans are generally coded to not think about things that go well, but dwell on things that go poorly to better learn from those situations (you don't need to learn anything from a success, generally, though there are still things you can if you choose to do so). There's also perception bias - your mind filters out things that aren't a problem.
I have ~700-800 games (and about maybe 86% of that in direct hours) in MOBAs - a game where the only action is working with other people, and the grand majority of those times I've been playing against other people as well. This nets to a lot of PVP time (and in just one game-type, at that). Out of that entire experience, I've dealt with maybe ~30 people (and with two teams of three to five people, this means I've logged hours with a few thousand total strangers even if we discount people I play with regularly) that ruined the play experience for me. I reported all of them, and fully explained what they did to ruin that game for me. The majority of those were on my own team if we're keeping score (and I have cross-team chat enabled, so I see both my team and /all chat).
Of those thirty incidents, none of them were near as bad as I have seen on the forums, or for one game in particular (League of Legends) the player judgement system (Tribunal - where you get to review some of the worst cases in the game and help the Player Behavior department decide if that player should be punished; Overwhelmingly, of ~200 cases I've reviewed, I've punished 95% of them. I stopped reviewing cases because of how shocking some of the behavior was). However, of those thirty incidents, I remember all of them far more clearly then the games that went well, and I couldn't even tell you how the other people performed in those games (despite there generally being 9 other people in it).
The majority of the gaming community for MOBAs isn't bad - however, when you're looking at a large scale community (in MOBAs, some of these games have player bases in the millions), factoring in perceptive biases and the human mind's capacity for remembering and holding onto negativity longer, you'd almost think the entire game community for them was the worst pool of scum and villainy in existance (and believe me, it has it's dark spots - some of the worst dark spots I've seen outside of FPS games). It's not. The grand sweeping majority of the community is at best 'neutral' - they have good and bad days, but you're unlikely to remember those people.
As to code of conduct - rules are in place to set a standard of behavior. If those standards aren't met, you are both allowed and encouraged to report those individuals. The problem is when the moderation is over-taxed, lacking, or non-existant. What do you want the playerbase to do in that situation, when they have no real ability to force that person to stop? I can spend all day arguing with someone over why they're being an idiot, and tell them they need to stop, but if the main reason they're doing it is because they either want attention or are actively trying to make people mad, aren't I just encouraging and reinforcing that behavior without solving the problem? That solves absolutely nothing, and I refuse to expend effort on something that is unlikely to produce results, specifically for people that can't be bothered to do it their damn selves.
Don't blame a community for bad moderation, and for your feelings on it. We're all people, mate, and nobody likes being generalized.
Humans are generally coded to not think about things that go well, but dwell on things that go poorly to better learn from those situations (you don't need to learn anything from a success, generally, though there are still things you can if you choose to do so). There's also perception bias - your mind filters out things that aren't a problem.
I have ~700-800 games (and about maybe 86% of that in direct hours) in MOBAs - a game where the only action is working with other people, and the grand majority of those times I've been playing against other people as well. This nets to a lot of PVP time (and in just one game-type, at that). Out of that entire experience, I've dealt with maybe ~30 people (and with two teams of three to five people, this means I've logged hours with a few thousand total strangers even if we discount people I play with regularly) that ruined the play experience for me. I reported all of them, and fully explained what they did to ruin that game for me. The majority of those were on my own team if we're keeping score (and I have cross-team chat enabled, so I see both my team and /all chat).
Of those thirty incidents, none of them were near as bad as I have seen on the forums, or for one game in particular (League of Legends) the player judgement system (Tribunal - where you get to review some of the worst cases in the game and help the Player Behavior department decide if that player should be punished; Overwhelmingly, of ~200 cases I've reviewed, I've punished 95% of them. I stopped reviewing cases because of how shocking some of the behavior was). However, of those thirty incidents, I remember all of them far more clearly then the games that went well, and I couldn't even tell you how the other people performed in those games (despite there generally being 9 other people in it).
The majority of the gaming community for MOBAs isn't bad - however, when you're looking at a large scale community (in MOBAs, some of these games have player bases in the millions), factoring in perceptive biases and the human mind's capacity for remembering and holding onto negativity longer, you'd almost think the entire game community for them was the worst pool of scum and villainy in existance (and believe me, it has it's dark spots - some of the worst dark spots I've seen outside of FPS games). It's not. The grand sweeping majority of the community is at best 'neutral' - they have good and bad days, but you're unlikely to remember those people.
As to code of conduct - rules are in place to set a standard of behavior. If those standards aren't met, you are both allowed and encouraged to report those individuals. The problem is when the moderation is over-taxed, lacking, or non-existant. What do you want the playerbase to do in that situation, when they have no real ability to force that person to stop? I can spend all day arguing with someone over why they're being an idiot, and tell them they need to stop, but if the main reason they're doing it is because they either want attention or are actively trying to make people mad, aren't I just encouraging and reinforcing that behavior without solving the problem? That solves absolutely nothing, and I refuse to expend effort on something that is unlikely to produce results, specifically for people that can't be bothered to do it their damn selves.
Don't blame a community for bad moderation, and for your feelings on it. We're all people, mate, and nobody likes being generalized.
Yeah. People do what they can get away with, right or wrong.
And it seems here either that the moderation is over-taxed, lacking, or non-existant and not much for people can do but either join them in the socially accepted behavior, or stay quiet about it not bring it up and let them have PvP and continue to watch the numbers there dwindle but same token should ask why pvp isnt being changed or pvp isnt getting this or focus isnt put on that aspect of the game due to low population created by people's behavior or say that is not majority of the people when people of the supposed "minority" have no qualms about acting like ruining other's experience while those that dont, say nothing or show themselves the positive side.
And it's like this. A robbery happens, you call the police. They never show. The robber returns and do it again, again police is called no one shows. They do it once more, again police never comes. Eventually a person usually will stop depending on the police to help them and either take matter into their own hands, which usually end up in a death whether it's the robber themself, the person trying to protect their property or someone caught in the cross fire. Of coruse they could just grow thicker skin and ignore it or move everytime they get robbed regardless of how long they been there and how much of their lives are tied to the area or the lack of funds or ability to move, buy into it's their fault for being robbed and not the person doing the robbing and let the robber continue to rob them or others. Or some might figure since robbing people is no longer paid attention to by the police, they might start robbing people themselves and so on. Which still remain, if someone can rob people without fear of anything happening to them of fear of enforcement of the law against robbing, then the point of that law written and existing is moot.
The way it seems it seems that type of behavior of insulting people for their skin tone, percieved sexual orientation, and telling them they all should stop mooching off the governement and commit suicide is accepted here contrary to the written rule, which it seems the rule do not apply and thus is moot and thus that behavior is not against the enforced rules and thus is a perfectly fine thing to do without fear of anything happening and it's not the person saying these things fault for saying these things as it's the fault of the target for being the target and being offended and even if they do finally report, there is nothign to fear as nothing will happen and they probably tell them it's their fault for not ignoring it in the first place. Thus there shouldnt be any fuss about it at all because it's allowed and the only breaking the rules is the person that didnt use the ignore button. I'll keep that in mind next time I pvp.
I think we're talking over each other's heads here (ignoring your awful analogy) - I'm speaking about PVP in general, and PVP communities in general, with added anecdotes about my experiences as a PVP player (in games where the PVP is actually supported). You seem to be specifically talking about PVP here, which is unsupported (no matter how much they talk it up) by and large in favor of supporting PVE (which makes it an example of exactly the kind of thing I recommend avoiding when designing a game that has PVP in it, even if it's not the primary facet of the game). Naturally, this kind of communication failure (on both our parts, mind - I'll admit my fault in contributing to the miscommunication) results in a lot of mixed signals and crossed wires. :U
As to your analogy, it's weak. I'll give you a better one - the situation you are presenting is that you're, say, at a sports club and participating in what you thought was a friendly game (it was supposed to be, anyway). Someone (on your team or the opposition) gives you Hell over your performance. You should be going to the club manager (after disengaging from the situation - you do not benefit at this juncture from doing anything) and asking them to do something about it (have a talk with the problem person, or whatever). When the problem persists, you just give up, and yell at completely uninvolved people (other then that they frequent the same club) for not doing anything about it when they may not have even met the guy before. Which is the position I'm at - why is it suddenly my problem that you have issue with how some random person I neither know nor care about is giving you beef? Unless I'm actively involved (like being a participant in the match in question), I have no investment in it. I can, have, and will again tell people off if I'm there to do something about it and have investment in the situation, but I'm also not going to specifically go out of my way to do so. It doesn't really solve anything - sure, I could beat the dude up for you, but not only am I fighting your battle, now I'm in trouble for a violent offense on behalf of some random person.
What is and is not acceptable doesn't tend to vary, the entire problem is how the reaction to it plays out. You can let that guy get to you and ruin your enjoyment, or you can ignore that dude after taking the appropriate action. After that, what more do you expect from people? Again, I emphasize that there is nothing I can do to get this to stop outside of reporting the person myself - while that does flag them for it again, if I'm doing so without having witnessed the affair in question and just on your word, that leads to abuse cases.
You're not at fault for being targetted - that's asinine. You are, however, at fault for expecting me to do something about it when it's not my job, and I have no authority to do so, and when I haven't even seen the situation in question. You are also at fault for generalizing the entire PVP community, holistically, for the actions and attitudes of a select few. I imagine you wouldn't like having the same done to you, and I have no idea why you would do the same to others and somehow treat that as if it's okay. The hypocrisy is yours.
To emphasize: The appropriate reaction is to report and ignore offenders. Responding to them only worsens the problem, though it is acceptable to ask them to lay off if you think you can do so in a way that doesn't get you in trouble as well. After that, there's not a lot you or I can do for it. If this truly is hard for you to rationalize, I may have to recommend avoiding PVP or situations likewise where there are sportmanship concerns.
I think we're talking over each other's heads here (ignoring your awful analogy) - I'm speaking about PVP in general, and PVP communities in general, with added anecdotes about my experiences as a PVP player (in games where the PVP is actually supported). You seem to be specifically talking about PVP here, which is unsupported (no matter how much they talk it up) by and large in favor of supporting PVE (which makes it an example of exactly the kind of thing I recommend avoiding when designing a game that has PVP in it, even if it's not the primary facet of the game). Naturally, this kind of communication failure (on both our parts, mind - I'll admit my fault in contributing to the miscommunication) results in a lot of mixed signals and crossed wires. :U
As to your analogy, it's weak. I'll give you a better one - the situation you are presenting is that you're, say, at a sports club and participating in what you thought was a friendly game (it was supposed to be, anyway). Someone (on your team or the opposition) gives you Hell over your performance. You should be going to the club manager (after disengaging from the situation - you do not benefit at this juncture from doing anything) and asking them to do something about it (have a talk with the problem person, or whatever). When the problem persists, you just give up, and yell at completely uninvolved people (other then that they frequent the same club) for not doing anything about it when they may not have even met the guy before. Which is the position I'm at - why is it suddenly my problem that you have issue with how some random person I neither know nor care about is giving you beef? Unless I'm actively involved (like being a participant in the match in question), I have no investment in it. I can, have, and will again tell people off if I'm there to do something about it and have investment in the situation, but I'm also not going to specifically go out of my way to do so. It doesn't really solve anything - sure, I could beat the dude up for you, but not only am I fighting your battle, now I'm in trouble for a violent offense on behalf of some random person.
What is and is not acceptable doesn't tend to vary, the entire problem is how the reaction to it plays out. You can let that guy get to you and ruin your enjoyment, or you can ignore that dude after taking the appropriate action. After that, what more do you expect from people? Again, I emphasize that there is nothing I can do to get this to stop outside of reporting the person myself - while that does flag them for it again, if I'm doing so without having witnessed the affair in question and just on your word, that leads to abuse cases.
You're not at fault for being targetted - that's asinine. You are, however, at fault for expecting me to do something about it when it's not my job, and I have no authority to do so, and when I haven't even seen the situation in question. You are also at fault for generalizing the entire PVP community, holistically, for the actions and attitudes of a select few. I imagine you wouldn't like having the same done to you, and I have no idea why you would do the same to others and somehow treat that as if it's okay. The hypocrisy is yours.
To emphasize: The appropriate reaction is to report and ignore offenders. Responding to them only worsens the problem, though it is acceptable to ask them to lay off if you think you can do so in a way that doesn't get you in trouble as well. After that, there's not a lot you or I can do for it. If this truly is hard for you to rationalize, I may have to recommend avoiding PVP or situations likewise where there are sportmanship concerns.
Actually your analogy is off a bit there.
And again, I'm not saying a person should respond directly to that person at all. Again, I say, they dont even have to say a single word to that person nor am I talking confronting the offending party.
I'm talking about...it's like say you have a group of people that belong to a group. The ones that seem to respresent the group keeps saying that the group stands for hating on blacks and homesexuals and all of them should die a horrible death. Now it's possible that everyone part of that group dont believe in that nor even want anythign to do with that type of thing but yet they stay with thegroup but dont give out words on their own, to the contrary.
As I said, think about three time already, People are quick to pipe up and say not all are like that but yet, on their own, again NOT CONFRONTING THE OFFENDING PARTY, show it to be the contrary.
On any given day in PVP you can see in chat, two people go at it and it turns into either a racial insult, sexuality insult or doing scrazy stuff sexually to people parents. Yet, what is wrong with the so called "majority" in chat just doing the opposite? "Good fight." "Hey, you almost had me. We'll fight again." etc? Instead of saying they are part of the group but inreality they are not being alone outside of chat and only fighting among their friends. Then that is not the group I'm talking about nor are they part of the group I'm talking about. I mean, if people can be rude andnasty in public chat why not combat it, again NOT COMBAT THE PERSON, with the way it should be done. If they are truely the majority as they say then the rude stuff would be far in between and watered down in concentration. And people will see this and see that majority of the folk are decent instead of the way it's now, the "majority" silent and among themselves and not speaking or showing how they act, and letting the loud relative few look like they are the majority.
But if that is not feasible in itself and the "majority" is not in fact the actual majority, the mods dont give a crap about that type behavior of racism, sexism, and saying that certain groups should all die or as one put it,all n(word) should hang from a tree and that will fix the economy because then they wont be able to reproduce, live a lazy lifestyle doing drugs, on welfare and using government money to commit crimes", then why not erase it from the written rules and just let it fly? What's the point of even saying it's against the rules if no one the mdoerators (NOT PARTICULARLY THE PLAYERS) can or willing to do anything about it, if the players dont care about it even if they dont believe it's true, and those that do it and say that stuff have no fear of repricussions (again from the moderators) even though it's supposedly written?
I'm talking about...it's like say you have a group of people that belong to a group. The ones that seem to respresent the group keeps saying that the group stands for hating on blacks and homesexuals and all of them should die a horrible death. Now it's possible that everyone part of that group dont believe in that nor even want anythign to do with that type of thing but yet they stay with thegroup but dont give out words on their own, to the contrary.
Your problem here is thinking that the PVP community is somehow some magically tight, cohesive group - it isn't. It's no different then the PVE community, and is just as fractured, splintered, and made up of cliques and associations. It has it's loners and it's drifters, the same as PVE. Because outside of a different mentality and mindset, there is no difference. And some of those people? Are in both groups and communities.
I take issue with a lot of people's thoughts and opinions on the PVE side of things, and I have just as much problem with people on the PVP side of things, in most games I play. Maybe it's because I like both gameplay aspects it gives me some unique perspective, but I really doubt that.
You're demonizing people for the actions of people they may not even know or associate with. Your attempts to justify it are unsatisfactory. I am completely, and utterly, failing to understand your viewpoint here. Help me figure out why it's okay to hate on PVP for this, but it's totally acceptable for me to have to deal with it in PVE (and it has happened before - I've dealt with the same idiotic drivel from the PVE side of the equation that I have from the PVP side of it), without making it sound like blatant hypocrisy.
As I said, think about three time already, People are quick to pipe up and say not all are like that but yet, on their own, again NOT CONFRONTING THE OFFENDING PARTY, show it to be the contrary.
I'll say it again - why is it my job to police an entire community? I don't generally go out of my way to hunt down someone that says something horrible to complete strangers in PVE, why is this the only reaction in a PVP community? Why should I fight your battles for you in one community and not the other?
On any given day in PVP you can see in chat, two people go at it and it turns into either a racial insult, sexuality insult or doing scrazy stuff sexually to people parents. Yet, what is wrong with the so called "majority" in chat just doing the opposite? "Good fight." "Hey, you almost had me. We'll fight again." etc? Instead of saying they are part of the group but inreality they are not being alone outside of chat and only fighting among their friends. Then that is not the group I'm talking about nor are they part of the group I'm talking about. I mean, if people can be rude andnasty in public chat why not combat it, again NOT COMBAT THE PERSON, with the way it should be done. If they are truely the majority as they say then the rude stuff would be far in between and watered down in concentration. And people will see this and see that majority of the folk are decent instead of the way it's now, the "majority" silent and among themselves and not speaking or showing how they act, and letting the loud relative few look like they are the majority.
I see the same exact junk in PVE as well, and in forums and communities across the internet and in real life. What makes PVP so special that you feel it's fine to ignore problems that plague any community, while decrying the same faults to PVPers? Why isn't the same logic and rationalization for dealing with it in A not acceptable or logical in B?
I don't find it acceptable anywhere I find it, but I treat it the same whether I run into it in PVE, or PVP. I apply the same steps to dealing with that problem, and I don't try and treat them somehow like they're magically different - they aren't. Explain to me why they are.
Your problem here is thinking that the PVP community is somehow some magically tight, cohesive group - it isn't. It's no different then the PVE community, and is just as fractured, splintered, and made up of cliques and associations. It has it's loners and it's drifters, the same as PVE. Because outside of a different mentality and mindset, there is no difference. And some of those people? Are in both groups and communities.
I take issue with a lot of people's thoughts and opinions on the PVE side of things, and I have just as much problem with people on the PVP side of things, in most games I play. Maybe it's because I like both gameplay aspects it gives me some unique perspective, but I really doubt that.
You're demonizing people for the actions of people they may not even know or associate with. Your attempts to justify it are unsatisfactory. I am completely, and utterly, failing to understand your viewpoint here. Help me figure out why it's okay to hate on PVP for this, but it's totally acceptable for me to have to deal with it in PVE (and it has happened before - I've dealt with the same idiotic drivel from the PVE side of the equation that I have from the PVP side of it), without making it sound like blatant hypocrisy.
Yeah it shouldnt be aloud pve side either.
I'll say it again - why is it my job to police an entire community? I don't generally go out of my way to hunt down someone that says something horrible to complete strangers in PVE, why is this the only reaction in a PVP community? Why should I fight your battles for you in one community and not the other?
I see the same exact junk in PVE as well, and in forums and communities across the internet and in real life. What makes PVP so special that you feel it's fine to ignore problems that plague any community, while decrying the same faults to PVPers? Why isn't the same logic and rationalization for dealing with it in A not acceptable or logical in B?
I don't find it acceptable anywhere I find it, but I treat it the same whether I run into it in PVE, or PVP. I apply the same steps to dealing with that problem, and I don't try and treat them somehow like they're magically different - they aren't. Explain to me why they are.
What I'm getting at is why is it ok for anyone as it seems to be the case?
You definately misinterperated what I said. I didnt said it was the other people job to police up other people.Its' the moderators job, which they dont seem too keen on doing and let it go and allow it. I said that more than a few times at this point but seems to be overlooked and end up translated into meaning I'm syaing the people should confront every last one of them in a show of mob justice. No, I dont think I can make it any clearer. NO it's not the player's job to confront the people. That should be the moderators job. But what they can do especially in pvp, if and since they are the majority, show what the majority act like because as it seems the "minority" is calling the shots and making most of the comments on the chat channels which make it look like the majority of the people that speak there are in the habit of insulting people's mother, race, sex, life.
And it's not specifically pve side but since PVP was the subject at hand of the matter at the time that is what I noticed in PVP. I noticed that behavior in PVE either and it's not right, but at this point if no one gives a crap about that type of behavior and it's seems to be accepted what would have been the point in introducing PVE into the discussion if it's already allowed in an even smaller group than PVE? I just assumed since it seemed that that behavior is ok and allowed in PVP then it's probably the same way for PVE. You can take my statements, replace PVP with PVE and most of it would be the same. It's not PVP or PVE but the players. Some do both and carry the behavior of tha sort in PVE just as much as they do in PVP. Hell, some of them dont PVE and still say stuff I mentioned.
But either way, what I gather it's ok to be racist, sexist, and insult anything that moves. PVP and PVE it seems.
What I'm getting at is why is it ok for anyone as it seems to be the case?
It isn't, and that's been my entire point - I've stated numerous times that the appropriate logic and rationale is the same for PVE and PVP, you keep making statements to the contrary. I've stated numerous times that it's the moderator's job to handle it, and you continuely and actively questioned that.
Here's an example:
As I said, think about three time already, People are quick to pipe up and say not all are like that but yet, on their own, again NOT CONFRONTING THE OFFENDING PARTY, show it to be the contrary.
Why is it my job to confront the offending party here? If it's not what you're trying to say, then phrase it better. Why am I being 'contrary' in stating that your opinion of an entire community is faulty because you're singling out the biggest offenders in it like it's somehow okay and justifies your feelings?
But either way, what I gather it's ok to be racist, sexist, and insult anything that moves. PVP and PVE it seems.
Welp, this conversation is over. If that's honestly what you're taking away from what I'm saying, then you're just as guilty of not reading as I apparently am. There is a clear failure of communication, and I don't care to waste further time and effort attempting to fix that. There's clearly no point in further discussion if such hyperbole is viewed as an acceptable response.
It isn't, and that's been my entire point - I've stated numerous times that the appropriate logic and rationale is the same for PVE and PVP, you keep making statements to the contrary. I've stated numerous times that it's the moderator's job to handle it, and you continuely and actively questioned that.
Am i"m not questioning. You're making an argument on something we agree on. We are saying the same thing. It's the moderator's job.
Why is it my job to confront the offending party here? If it's not what you're trying to say, then phrase it better. Why am I being 'contrary' in stating that your opinion of an entire community is faulty because you're singling out the biggest offenders in it like it's somehow okay and justifies your feelings?
In the bolded part, right there in the middle I said, again NOT CONFRONTING THE OFFENDING PARTY, meaning, I'm not saying it's your or anyone else job besides the moderator's. And I have not even touched on the portion about my feelings much yet and only what I actually have seen. Are you suggesting that behavior dont exist, even after you said it does in PVE and PVP alike? I doubt it, but then it looks like ya saying I shouldnt have any feelings about it at all and again it's on me for seeing it as a bad thing when people talk like that.
Welp, this conversation is over. If that's honestly what you're taking away from what I'm saying, then you're just as guilty of not reading as I apparently am. There is a clear failure of communication, and I don't care to waste further time and effort attempting to fix that. There's clearly no point in further discussion if such hyperbole is viewed as an acceptable response.
And that fine. The minds seem to be made up. You seem intent on misreading my statements and saying the things that I already been saying but saying I'm not, and it's abig deal if someone find a problem with that type of behavior as if everyone is supposed to be ok with it and not say anythign about it and wonder why it's not being addressed by the moderators. And this proves the problem. When someone do say these things exist, it's the problem of the person bringing it up for bringing it up and being bothered by it and not the person that says racist things or sexist things or the other stuff, pve or pvp. I'll keep it in mind. Hey, if it's accepted it and no one have problem with it then, then ok. I guess this is a subject that probably wont be brought up again, my bad, for being "Offended by talks of black peopel should hang, and all homosexuals should be castrated." My error. And that is not hyperbole. That is actual statements I have personally seen in PVP and in PVE.
But no wonder they do it, even people like you who seem to say they dont believe in it, cover for those people. No wonder they do it and probably will continue to do it.
No matter, I guess it's my problem, and looks like I have no choice next time but take matters into my own hand, but even if they get offended, it's their fault.
Well nice talking to ya. If I see ya in game, I probably just accepted the social norm of speaking to people by then. Dont take it personal. It's how people supposed to speak around here apparently to each other and no one supposed to point it out and we all supposed to just pretend it dont exist. But hey, I guess they since they havent came out with a new Ethnic Cleansing game in a while, those players had to go somewhere.
And, both of your analogies are worse than a long-tailed Qularr in a room full of rocking chairs!
I dunno, maybe it's just personal experience. I don't see PVP any different then sports - you have two teams of people playing against each other of various sizes, with various agreed upon goals.
Sometimes it's like basketball, sometimes it's like hockey, and sometimes it's just boxing (two men enter, both men leave with brain damage!).
PVP communities, therefore, are more reminisicent of private, amateur-league sports clubs. Only anyone can enter and get into a game with anyone else for the most part. There is functionally no different IMO as far as mindset goes outside of the lack of personal and physical interaction (as the internet provides anonymity and distance barriers, and you never actually touch anyone).
Also Qularr don't have tails, and they'd just destroy the puny rocking chairs. Your analogy is not much better! I am, at this moment, writing my congressman to complain about this very matter.
Replying only to the basic question in the topic title...
Story by Bioware (liberate them from EA, somehow...)
Game by Arenanet.
Visual customization somewhere like CO.
Steal the Archetype system from CoX, but make you pick two (one major, one minor), and then give you two fixed powers (selectable from a list) that contribute to the two roles you've chosen. Then pick a resource method (buildable power bar, slowly draining energy bar, combo attacks, cooldowns).
In addition to the role powers, pick two basic attacks and a self-heal. Basic attacks are usable freely, and will contribute to whatever resource generation method you choose. Then pick an offensive or defensive buff (kind of like Active Offenses/Defenses here) or a big attack/heal (kind of like how T4s should have been here) that's usable as a supermove when a bar is filled. Also pick either a dodge, block or parry (kind of like the blocks here).
Then you get six active power slots (like heals, attacks, Crowd Control, party buffs, debuffs, whatever) and four utility power slots (self buffs, kits, interaction powers, etc). You fill those slots with your choice of...eh, around 20 powers you pick (so you can't have all the powers you've chosen slotted at once). You can change your slotted powers at any time out of combat.
"Ideally", any combination of five characters can clear anything in the game. They just have to do it differently.
How would I do a Superhero MMORPG? Really super-easily, actually. I would take CO, fix the bugs, take out grab-bags/lock-boxes, make Alerts for only level 40s, and routinely add powers & costume pieces.
I'd just bring back CoH. Not like it shut down for any reason, NCsoft just has a crippling fear of money.
NCsoft has a crippling fear of money? Quite the contrary. Ever heard of the Guild Wars franchise, that humongous cash cow? CoH just wasn't giving profits according to their expectations so they pulled the plug without having the basic respect or acknowledgement for the loyal players who have supported the product, especially those who have been from the beginning.
If Wildstar Online doesn't do well according to NCsoft's expectations, don't be surprised if it gets its plug pulled at a moment's notice too.
NCsoft has a crippling fear of money? Quite the contrary. Ever heard of the Guild Wars franchise, that humongous cash cow? CoH just wasn't giving profits according to their expectations so they pulled the plug without having the basic respect or acknowledgement for the loyal players who have supported the product, especially those who have been from the beginning.
If Wildstar Online doesn't do well according to NCsoft's expectations, don't be surprised if it gets its plug pulled at a moment's notice too.
basically.
Expectations probably had a role in it. The profits sound like a lot to one but may be pennies to another's expectation and not worth it.
Some people will wait at the cashier no matter how long it takes for 2 pennies in change. Others, two pennies are not worth the time opf waiting, even if it means losing two pennies, money by definition that would add to the amount of money already in their pocket.
Comments
I liked having villains in City of Heroes, and I like the idea of playing a villain in DCUO, but neither game feels really villainous. Oh, sure, in DCUO, you get to beat up on cops, but I never feel like a villain, more of a minion. I'm really not sure how to improve the Archetype difference. I liked how the red side archetypes were actually darker, grittier versions of their blue side equivalents, but you already had some pretty dark stuff, like claws (back off, Biff, Cyber!
If anything, given the content we've seen here, I don't want to see anything that major. Let this new crew get their feet wet, let us see what they can do, and then we can start asking for sweeping thematic changes.
As for the original topic, there are three such efforts underway, with one ready to open their Kickstarter (or whatever form it ends up taking) in a couple of months, and another with a sort of "open alpha" proof of concept (just running around in a city environment, ATM). I would check out what they are talking about; it's kind of interesting.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Lots of people do, but are afraid to say so. I think hate is a strong word, but Quentin is so overrated I get crosseyed. I do like a couple of his movies, but the ones that irk me:
Pulp Fiction: You know what murderers for hire don't do? Bark at their victims for 10 minutes before shooting. Also When working in pairs, they don't wear super snappy suits BOUND TO GET YOU NOTICED. This also pertains too robbing a coffeshop, replace suits with CRAZY SCREAMING.
Kill Bill 1: Knife fighting. The concept of a professional knifefighter is absurd. Think about it a moment. How would one train? In what venue would this skill be measured? Ack I hated that.
And again Tarantino goes loopy with the outfits. Elle Driver walks through a hospital in an overly stylizied nurse's outfit that looks like something I'd try to get an x gf to wear in private, also dons an eyepatch with a medical cross symbol en route to target. Yeah that would be a real subtle hit.
Uma Thurman boards a plane bound for Tokyo. With a sword. That she carries on the plane. Ugh.
Also, anyone of anything OTHER THAN JAPANESE DESCENT IS NOT GOING TO CONTROL THE YAKUZA. NO IF'S AND'S OR BUTT'S*.
Kill Bill 2: Woman is buried alive and with little to know room to even move her arm punches through a coffin and tunnels upwards through 6 feet of earth with terrifying speed. But she's super strong and trained, you say? Whatever, she got put in that grave w/ a blast of salt rock to the chest minutes earlier. Sigh.
Pai Mai or however that dude's name is spelled. Charicature and stupid.
I'm gonna stop, or I'll be here forever.
edit: Butts above had a notation, one last thing: the foot fetish.
Live and let live but do we need to be subjected to his personal fetish IN EVERY MOVIE HE DOES? Seriously Pam Grier was super hot back in the day and at the time Jackie Brown was released looked (imo) like a million bucks but that move could have been called " I'm Quentin, it's MY MOVIE, AND IT'S MOSTLY PAM GRIER'S FEET YOU WILL BE SEEING."
**I know your response wasn't directed at me J and you can lecture me later, but if you're a Tarantino fan I'm gonna give you a run for your money.
Villain players... I'm less sure how well this works out, except as a funky pvp mode that everyone can choose sides on. (Hey, maybe a mutant registration act pvp map...
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
It is based on the idea that what your power is or looks like is unimportant for purpose of game mechanics compared to what it does.
This means that powers are defined as certain generic effects that are purchased. These effects can then be modified with advantages to differentiate their performance. These advantaged, or non advantaged, effects then have animations and special effects tied to them.
An example:
Power Name: Attack
Attack does X damage at melee range (10').
Advantages (AP = Advantage Point Cost, Maximum # of AP per power = 3):
Increased Damage I (1AP) Increases Damage from X to X*1.25.
Increased Damage II (1AP) Increases damage from X* 1.25 to X*1.50 (requires Increased Damage I)
Increased range I (1AP) This increases the range from melee to medium (50')
Increased range II (1 AP) This increases the range from medium to long (100', requires Increased Range I)
Area Effect (1 AP) This converts the attack from single target to cone, radius, or line. Note that the power's range is still melee unless Increased range is also taken.
Armor Piercing (1 AP) Any damage reduction possessed by the target in excess of Y is reduced by 50%.
Accurate (1 AP) Any dodge chance possessed by the target in excess of Z is reduced by 50%.
Knock Back (1-3 AP) This attack does KB based on the number of AP spent on this advantage.
and so on.
Once the character has designed his Attack mechanically he would select from a combination of animations.
Hand Blast: The character performs hand blast animations while his Attack is delivered.
Eye Blast: The character performs eye blast animations while his attack is delivered.
Brawling: The character performs might style animations while his attack is delivered.
Martial Arts: The character performs unarmed martial arts animations while his attack is delivered.
Pistols: The character performs pistol firing style animations while his Attack is delivered.
Rifle: The character performs rifle firing animations while his Attack is delivered.
Single Blade: The character performs single melee weapon animations while his attack is delivered.
and so on.
The next step would be to choose the visual effect of the attack (including colorization):
Fire
Sonics
Ice
Beam
Darkness
etc.
A character might go through this process for several Attacks in order to have his mega KB blast, his PBAOE, and so on.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Well.....let's say CoH2. Everything about the game mechanics stays the same. Same chat system. Updated graphics and coding, so that changes would be easier to implement.
Seriously, the developers must have gotten tired of the "please change bases" requests and the spaghetti string code bases were originally done in....although, there were some real beastly bases made with what we had. True creative genius.
Paragon Studios might have trouble reforming, since BABs is with Cryptic, Posi is too...umm...there are several that transitioned over to Cryptic once the closure came. Just...leave Emmert out of the deal, or perhaps limit his involvement to ideas and concepts only. The man does have good dreams and visions. Just really BAD implementation.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Maybe it should be balanced around PvP.
WAIT! Before you flame, hear me out.
I PvP VERY little. Mainly because my classic themed toons with a rich story who are carefully crafted to have a fun, appropriately themed playstyle and to feel like a real hero in PvE tend to die like a biatch on their knees in PvP.
Meaning, I build theme-first, PvE effectiveness second, and then try PvP to... see my beautiful creations get pimp slapped and, um, non-consensually "made love to", by others.
IF I understand correctly, PvP is much harder to balance than PvE. If a game has even a decently balanced PvP, it should be relatively easy to keep PvE under control.
So... maybe if the game were balanced around PvP it would actually keep PvP from being such a small, reviled group. We might actually all be able to participate.
Or... I'm wrong and that's a terrible idea. What'ch'all think?
Well it's not a bad idea but not one spoken too often IMO.
But I dont think PVP is a small reviled group based on mechanics alone as some people that hang out there's behavior. While the ones that dont act like plum fools because they can get away with it, dont tend to say much which make it look like anything coming out of a PvPer's mouth is about having sexual relations with someone's parent or grandparent or sister or the likes, some explective, or some other nonsense while most people just either close the window or ignore but never actually address the behavior which more and more makes PVPers look like it consist of immature 11 year olds and under that are a bunch of sore losers or foul mouth braggers.
Of course people peep up and say "Oh all pvpers are not like that." But I ask, then why not address the situation when it happens instead of ignoring it? Or why not counter the amount of junk with your own words instead of staying silent about it? Remember chat is visible and cant count the ones that dont say anything or really dont participate much or only participate within their own clique and not with the outsiders. Silence might as well be acceptance of that behavior. No, not all pvpers are loud mouth foul mouth sore losers but it seems to be the accepted behavior judging by the silence of the rest.
If that behavior is rooted out, more people will do PvP. But if they have to risk being verbally abused every match and or chat banned by sore losers, then of course it will only stay a small community.
I have to agree. In my experience, I've seen too much PvP-related trolling to even consider it. I know not all of them are like this, but I don't want to go into something and hope I might run across one of the decent ones when the bad ones are up in your face.
I've seen PvPers take up RP as a means to pick fights and rub it in the faces of the loser.
I just don't get it, but then again I grew up in the age of 'co-op' gaming for Nintendo and I'm used to being on the same team with another player trying to do the same thing.
The issue I have with this is one of ideology - I love doing PVP when the mechanics are great (Guild Wars 1/2, MOBAs, some FPS games; This means an active and fair balance team is the biggest asset - if Warhammer Online had a solid balance team that didn't play favorites, it would have gone on the list). I love dealing with sportsmanlike invididuals, and I'm generally one myself (not always - I'm human, but I try to keep negativity to myself). I make an effort to compliment my team, and my opponent's, and engage in friendly banter (if I barely survive an encounter, I'll joke about it; If I get an epic duel with someone, I'll tell them that).
What I don't like doing, however, is forcing my opinion on other people (do note there's a difference between being blunt, and forcing my opinion; Even when giving advice/critique, I take into account the person's feelings and motivations. That sometimes doesn't come across, but when doing so I'm generally not here to make friends, I'm here to promote discussion, thought, and offer the benefits of my experience and talents). I also fully realize that people that are sore losers won't change that often. The evidence suggests that most of them can't come to terms with the fact they're doing anything wrong. It's very hard to change someone's mind about something if they can't realize there's a problem in the first place. Such people are also beneath my notice outside of a casual eyeroll as I go do something far more entertaining then wasting my time with an immature prat. You can fairly call that elitism - it is. As I stated earlier, however, elitism isn't a bad thing (at least, I'm pretty sure it was this thread anyway).
If it's unlikely to have an effect, and the individual isn't worth my time to spare the effort, I'm not going to bother. Those people don't want to change, and I don't care to bother in the attempt. Further, giving attention to such individuals just reinforces their behavior because generally that's a motivation for doing it. I don't feed their egos, and I go about my business because honestly, that grade-school jazz ain't worth my time.
What you're suggesting I do is the exact opposite of what you do with unruly children, when I have a fundamental issue with it (because it ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys, ain't my problem; If they were my own kid or someone I otherwise felt responsible for personally, you can guarantee I would be handling that matter in private. For random people I can't even begin to care about? Nah). That's not going to happen.
If they get out of line, report them for verbal harrassment, put them on ignore, and move on. Letting that stuff eat at you is what they want, and if it keeps you out of what they feel is 'their' PVP (however wrong that idea is), that's just fine for them. Screw that. Do PVP because it's fun for you, if it is, and live for those moments that are worth the time and effort. Otherwise, don't PVP. No one is forcing you to, after all.
Insert a break here to talk about some other stuff.
As far as PVP design goes, I think the best example of 'balance' came from having PVE and PVP separated in terms of how abilities work. Guild Wars 1 sometimes radically changed how certain skills worked in PVE and PVP. More then simple numbers changes, sometimes this involved entirely different mechanics. An example is one of the Ritualist Elite skills, Signet of Spirits - in PVE, it summons three spirits that all deal damage for a full minute. In PVP, it instead gave you an energy recover (the mechanic all classes used to fuel skills) for having a spirit in earshot (a standardized radius the game used). Other skills (like Empathy - in PVE it reduces damage done in addition to causing damage whenever the afflicted target attacks; in PVP, the damage reduction doesn't happen) only got minor tweaks and numbers changes.
It's worth noting that this is a lot more work (as you need a separate balance and design team in those cases), but it does help (not solve) the problem of having one core set of balance changes have to affect two entirely different game environments. This lets you have something like a long duration CC in PVE, but be able to adjust that ability in PVP so that it's either not game-breaking (while at the same time not making all CC pretty well useless), or not being an issue at all.
I really think that if you're going to include an option for PVP in any game, you need to take the time to do it right. The same can be said fo any feature you attempt to design, really, but so many games just implement PVP badly.
(Note: For an open skill customization system as frequently comes up, you're better off fully segregating PVE/PVP by having a separate 'build' for characters entering PVP that has different constraints for PVP. This again allows you to balance things specifically for the PVP section without having to try and make sure those changes aren't major nerfs to something that works fine in PVE without a problem. They're different beasts and need different considerations.)
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
With that said, if I did any kind of MMO with high customization there would be loads of tights options both because I know people love superheroes and because they make an excellent base to pile stuff onto.
For all intents and purposes I'd probably base it off of my own setting where most of my characters come from. Which is superheroic in nature when you really get down to it. It has almost all the staples in there somewhere, you've got mutants (aura users), technology users (there's even several high tech vigilante types in the actual story, as well as dangerous paramilitary types, both good and bad), magic users (there's a number of ancient forces anyone with even a weak aura can manipulate with enough practice). There's a huge amount of basic stuff I've come up with to draw lore from, enough so that content wouldn't be a problem as long as it could be afforded.
Setting:
Futuristic, likely 300 to 500 hundred years in the future. Space travel has been around for a while, but it's still cutting edge because it's too complicated for most people to understand and moving way too fast for most to keep up with. Deep space travel engineering is mostly the domain of people who in any setting would be considered super intelligent, though the products of it are used by just about everyone.
Civilizations of just about all species are colonizing other planets and much of the conflict comes from that early on, but later you start to fight ancient forces that vary from stuff that is borderline eldritch power to getting involved in a war between immortals that has been going on since before any of the current races even existed.
Some of the bad guy or bad-ish factions:
CELESTIAL: Paramilitary that is literally the core human civilization's government. They aren't outright fascist, but only because they know being such would very quickly cause uprisings of very dangerous people. As it stands, they've already pissed enough people off to fragment human civilization, and even if they do control a majority of it it's only about 40% of the whole. They seek control and limit all aura users within their borders as well as any and all technology, and barring that destroy them and it. Well, that and force anything and everything under their rule, obviously.
Psycho Gear Gang: Cyberpunks, and not the tree hugging type that try to avoid excess violence either. They're one of the largest Cyberpunk gangs and not much really can or needs to be said about them other than that they're extremely violent and live to cause as much terror, damage and chaos as possible. Those who remember the Freakshow already have an idea, though their tech is more cutting edge, even if still a bit juryrigged.
MORI: Getting into the more high risk level factions, the Mass Offensive Robotic Infantry. What CELESTIAL code named them the first time they ran into them, as they don't really have a name anyone knows of. When First Earth was destroyed, most thought the mad robots that took over the planet in the Human's absence were a byproduct of the robots who chose to stay behind and contain the chaos long enough for the planet to be evacuated. Truth is, they're something much more ancient that somehow got pulled to the planet, and not only are they still as haywire as they were before, but recently they've gained sentience...
Ty'Rian: These things are older than our universe and they seek to claim it as their own. When the last universe met its demise some of its inhabitants managed to survive it. Their story is one guaranteed to clash with ours, because the entity that created our universe also destroyed the last, and the Ty'Rian are none too happy about this. To make matters worse, during the first Ty'Rian war they were cast into a chaotic, self destructive mirror universe, which was expected to destroy them but instead only served to warp them into life sucking creatures far more powerful than they were to begin with.
Sons of Cyril/Ty'Rian Avatars: Early on, Cyril is one of the bad guys, and later on when he's on your side the Ty'Rian's own champions step up to the plate. This is all big news stuff, any time you're fighting these guys it's going to be plot critical and far more difficult than most other stuff you fight. Furthermore, the Avatars themselves are easily at least on par with a player character and aren't guaranteed to come alone. (Read: If you team up, they team up. There's no gang banging these guys.)
Character Creator:
Basically, the Champions creator with more sliders. It's really hard to fundamentally improve on something as good as this. Key difference would be that you'd have more sliders for individual things, with some costume part categories actually having sliders specifically for them, and most costume pieces would be extremely modular and broken up into smaller parts. Meaning that whether you're trying to come up with the perfect set of tights, power armor helmet or animal head, you do it by mixing and matching smaller parts. In turn, this means that any previous costume pack you buy can be mixed with current ones on a sub-body part basis, making the possible combination of pieces any given pack makes possible simply immeasurable. Also, to hell with clipping, if possible my game would have clipping detection in that cuts off anything that clips through another piece. This can be turned off too, so if clipping is what you want...
Powers:
You'd actually make powers from the ground up. You'd pick a base animation and FX, choose what kind of power it's supposed to be and start slapping attributes onto it. You have base attributes, which subtract from another area when you add them (I. E. gain power, lose speed) and "free points" which you can stick anywhere. There's two types of free points, ones which you gain from "leveling" (my game would be leveless, even if there is a power curve that both players and enemies exist on) and ones which you actually get from completing missions.
You can also chain animations together and create combo powers, and with the right attributes have those powers combo into other powers. More on that in combat. ...And before you ask, yes you can make a karate chop fires a projectile that heals allies. Does it make sense? That's up for you to decide.
You get to pick a plethora of travel/utility power type abilities that do different things including travel, combat mobility, mission utility and more, and missions are actually designed around them. Enhanced Stealth, the ability to pass through walls, wall/ceiling walking/running, combat dodges, etc, can all be used during gameplay to complete objectives, often even granting different outcomes to success. The best part, is these all come in their own system, so you don't have to waste power points on them.
Travel power speed actually ranks up on its own, but there's a set of points specific to travel powers that you can use to improve what they actually do. I. E. giving your general purpose travel the ability to pass through enemies, or improving the activation speed of your combat dodges and lunges.
Also, there's a transformations/alt build system that adds even more horizontal progression. Basically, you can transform (maybe you put on armor, maybe you become some kind of monster, maybe you reveal your true form, whatever) into a completely separate set of stats and powers, and these transformations unlock when you complete your first build. You can unlock more both through further "leveling" and completing certain missions, though there would be a cap on the max number you can get.
When you get a new build, it starts as your old build and you basically swap powers out as you go along for different ones. This is mostly to help out with the problem that content is going to be expecting you to have a full build by the time you're on your second build, you might still end up with something lopsided but at least it'll be semi functional until you get it fully outfitted. You can also just choose not to use it until it's done, of course.
Stats and Gear:
I'm actually not entirely solid on the stats and gear system. Mostly because a lot of what you'd find in a typical stats and gear system actually comes from the powers system. What is most likely to be the case is the stats system handles what you do well in general and it's in two layers: Base and extended. Base stats are a part of your character and static unless you respec, extended comes in the form of gear and can not only alter what you do well in terms of stats but even alter what your powers do, giving you the ability to enhance yourself differently temporarily for the mission at hand.
I never liked in games when you spec one way and suddenly you hit a rock that you can't pass because it expects you to be completely different, so I'd try to have alternate ways to complete any given mission, and even some missions specifically designed for certain types of mechanics. But assuming that your traditional method of going Solid Snake and sneaking around all the enemies wasn't working out for some reason, you could, for example, temporarily trade your enhanced stealth out for different utility powers via the gear system.
Combat:
Combat is beat-em-up-ish, but depending on the mission you'd find puzzle fights, and stealth is usually an option. Charge attacks do exist, but they're more like Megaman charge attacks where you can move while charging and getting hit with some kind of crowd control doesn't knock you out of the charge. Positioning is important, as attacks take up actual space, and you can dodge just about everything. Most enemies have some AI patterns, and bosses especially do, having entire routines they do. Bosses can and will combo you, and some can actually juggle entire groups of player characters, so blocking and dodging is a rather good idea.
Attacks have different attributes on them that can add stagger (if you play fighting games, this is hitstun, which if long enough lets you combo) juggle (keeps an opponent in the air better if they're launched) various types of stun and more. Where stats and statistic-ish powers do come in here is determining how vulnerable you are to a lot of these effects, and how well they work on your enemies. I. E. not all enemies are going to be able to put you in hitstun, but occasionally you are going to run into stuff that, depending on what your hitstun resistance is, will put you in a Streets of Rage style mob combo.
Before anyone asks, there's infinite protection. Any sort of juggle, hitstun combo or crowd control breaks if you repeat the same move too many times, and crowd control has an entire set of rules that work off a resource specifically for it. I don't feel like getting into all the specifics for it, but you have a resilience bar with several differently colored lines that determine how vulnerable you are to the three different groups of crowd control. Everyone starts at equilibrium, though you can raise what your equilibrium is and possibly even lower it with build choices.
The game has various resource meters you'd find in any game, but NONE of them function in any way like a mana system. Screw that, you're boring and tedious Mana/Energy, go die in a fire. Instead, you have stuff like a rage meter, special meter, desperation meter, etc, and you can choose which you have, what they effect and even what they do.
Just about every mission can at least be partially completed via stealth. Enemies have non-bullpie line of sight and hearing and if you're swift and quiet you can not only get the drop on them but sneak around them. Some enemies are more tricky though and may require specific build choices, because you have enemies that can sense auras, people with sensor technology and more. So some enemies you can just walk right by if you're careful, but others you'll need a stealth build to get past. You actually get mission completion bonuses the more enemies you go undetected by, as well, so it's a completely viable option.
Story and Allegiance:
As was noted earlier, I've got quite a bit of material I could weave a rich story out of, that covers just about every genre one could be interested in. At least as rich as City of Heroes was, if not more, which I mostly note because of how much people are like "I wish Champions Online had CoX story!" The base concept is even wide enough that new factions could be created to fill whatever niche people are asking for.
What's more interesting here is that your actions in various plots decides who's on your side, who's hostile to you and who's "meh." Some groups are inherently on your side, some are hostile to you and others really don't dislike you but wouldn't necessarily jump in to help you. You can actually piss off a group in whatever you chose for your starting area, and have people there hostile to you, though usually in the process you've pleased someone else with those actions. Open a window when you close a door so to speak. You can go full on villain if you want, and there's even cities dedicated to those types, not unlike Rogue Isles.
Given this, it can actually be useful to cover your tracks or be sneaky, and it might even be reason to have an alternate identity system specifically to allow the player to work for certain groups or carry out missions against others to an extent without causing bad blood.
Probably the most important part of this is the game is somewhat campaign based. There's three tiers of progression and at the end of the third tier there's the Endgame tier. What you do in each tier changes what you get in the next, though really only the first one or two tiers have that many branching options. Endgame is the only part with repeatable content, and in each tier you actually can't do all of the content. Meaning if you want to experience all the game has, you HAVE to roll alts. Content packages would actually come in a tiered fashion, and leveling would be very, very swift (like spamming Smashes on double XP swift), encouraging people to alt. That said, you CAN "reality hop" which is basically to join the team of someone who's followed a different path than you, and you basically gain their "reputation."
If it isn't painfully obvious, the game would actually have a campaign editor. This would more or less be the game's UGC, and good stuff that doesn't mangle the lore horribly may actually be added to the official game if the player(s) who made it are OK with this. The campaign editor would probably just be a version of what the internal team uses to develop, so that the team isn't wasting time supporting two separate development kits. In fact, if possible, I'd like players to be in on stuff as much as we can support, possibly even allowing them to submit costume pieces, music, sound effects and anything else. This is hard though, because while there are A LOT of talented people out there with nothing better to do with their time, submissions still have to be reviewed, but if it could be done it would.
The game probably wouldn't have a nemesis system at launch at least... But it if did, it might work through the campaign editor in some way. Basically, you'd be able to add some custom missions and set the type of link point to the main story they have, and besides that your nemesis would occasionally invade your missions in spots designed to let them, Megaman X boss-of-the-week style. There would be a number of premade personalities to select from, but you can edit their dialog text to make it character specific if you want.
If it isn't obvious, I've thought about this and tried very hard to come up with a "quality by customization" approach. Game design theory and philosophy is a fascination of mine because as a work of fiction the sky is your budget and with a good enough budget you can do anything, but your real difficulty is making something that people will accept.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Ah yes, you see. I'm not saying give attention to to "children" I'm saying just let people know that all PvPers are not "children" instead of retreating to the "elite internal group of friends". Because if you keep it all within the elit group of friends that no one know even exist, then the only one visible doing all the talking is the ones that cauing the trouble. People cant judge someting they cant see. If all they see is foolishness, then there is nothign else to go by if there isnt the opposite.
Even if it's simply as saying "good game" to ya opponent in public chat instead of some back room away from everything.
I'm saying people are quick to peep up when someone see that PvP is ran by the "children" but yet, as you stated, they are there in their own group staying to themselves among others like them only talking to others like them and not really interacting with anyone outside that group. Basically invisible.
But what is visible is the "children" behavior and since the other side, the "elite" is invisible because they basically separate themseves and chat away from it, all a person will see is the "children's" nonsense. If you see a bunch a nonsense PvP stuff happening in the channel instead of cutting it off and basically let it ruin the rep of PvP even further. Have a match fight soemone even a friend in public and say "good game" or something and people will see that and that shows that not everyone is PvP trouble makers. AKA, like when dealign with children sometimes, set the example, show them how it's supposed to and or can be done. You dont have to say two words to them. But as with children doing nothing is about the same thing as agreeing.
But on the flip side, it's funny how people dont hesistate to chastice someone that they view as they dont agree with (not talking about you but in general) or think is trolling but seem afraid to speak up and all of a sudden dont want to "force their view" on someone when it's bad behavior that is detrimental to the health of a certain aspect of the game. But wont hesitate to get on someone case about a misplaced comma or period, or costume choice.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
You can't expect a community to police itself - it can happen, but it's not something you should count on happening. What's the more likely scenario is encouraging people to actively report the problem individuals and applying appropriate measures (time bans and for people that are habitual offenders, possibly account bans if they can't learn what the problem was). You're putting a lot of the 'problem' with the perception of the PVP community on the PVP players, themselves, when it's not a majority of that population that is the problem.
It's a bunch of loud, obnoxious, vocal derpensteins. If you're really jazzed by what they say, you need to report'em and let the moderators handle them (provided that the moderators can do something about it; Some of the stuff people take as offensive is hysterically minor junk, and yet they treat it like someone committed murder).
Solid moderation is a necessity. However, at the same time, it's reactionary and doesn't
always fix the problem. It's worth noting also that some people just aren't cut out for PVP, and that's not a bad thing. If you try it and don't like it (regardless of any verbal harrassment that goes on - you should be reporting that based on severity; Your mileage may vary, and probably will), then cleaning up the community likely isn't going to change that fact. You balance and clean up the community for the dedicated or even semi-casual PVP crowd to make those players happy, not so that Mr. Fluffy Carebear* can enjoy it. That's just bad policy.
(*DISCLAIMER: I don't think anyone is as bad as what I consider a Mr. Fluffy Carebear in this thread, at all. I mean the kind of person that faints at even the slightest suggestion of negativity, or gets upset because OH NO! They said bad things on after-hours TV! The horror. What's sad is I've actually had to deal with that kind of person before and it's hard to be sympathetic for someone that lets so much stuff bother them...)
You knew what was going to happen the second you saw my name in the thread! I regret nothing!
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Here, is the point I'm making. I know this you know this but from a visble stand point, it sure as hell dont look like this is the case. Why? Because this minority speaks, speaks often, and usually loud, and I'm talking about the little jabs. No no, I seen quite often stuff that either is or should be clearly against the rules like insulting people for either their actual or assumed sexual orientation, various insulting words, words that probably and is known to be insulting to majority of people, to a specific race and things of that nature. If the mods cant do anything about that, then what is the point of them and what is the point of putting it in the rules as against the rules?
And of course what insults one person may not insult everyone. That is the nature of things. some people probably dont care if they called the n word over and over and over or called gay, or accuse their family members of being such. To others it may be insulting. Apparently it's is reasonable to be insulted given that in the conduct rules, that type of behavior is apparently supposed to be not allowed. COuld they grow thicker skin? Of course. Then again that could be said about anything and everything which would nullify the point of 90% of the rules. Got a bug that is annoying ya? Grow thicker skin and deal with it. Someone called your family a bunch of lazy black criminals? Grow thicker skin deal with it. Someone harass you day and night because they think you are homosexual and continiously say you will burn in hell and that you should be murdered? (Yes I seen someone say this many times to another person. Apparently no one give a crap as every so often since Feb. He's at it again.) But grow thicker skin get over it. Someone telling you slit your wrist and kill yourself and hope your entire family do the same? Gorw thicker skin get over it?
If a person is not allowed to be insulted by anything and it's up the receiver and it's their fault they fell insulted, then what is the point of any rules dealing with code of conduct in game? People to one person or another everything is small and petty but to that person it may be a big deal. DOnt know they life story, hell they might have just went through someone a family member killing themselves recently and may not think someone else suggesting they should slit their wrist is very funny. Of course the other person dont know. They never bother to ask. They just assume it's the other person's duty to grow thicker skin. But when they are insulted, they feel they have a right to be insulted and the rule they want to tell everyone one, grow thicker skin, no longer applies to them.
Of coruse a line must be drawn and standard set, but isnt that what the rules are for? Apparently either the mods are swamped or dont care, but if all a person see is rude obnoxious behavior, then it looks like that is what PVPers are like. If the other ones remain silent they cant be counted even though majority of the folks may not be loud rude obnoxious, but where are they. People dont see too many good games, or people not being obnoxious even though supposedly majority of the people that do PVP isnt like that but yet majority of the visible convo is obxnoisious and rude to down right insulting. Only time we seem to hear about the ones that isnt fitting the ill definition of PVPer is on the forum when they say "Well majority of us dont do that." Oh really? if that the case why is majority of pvp chatter rude nonsense? Is it a rule that in order to speak in chat ya have to rude and if ya not you have to be silent or only talk among friends? If there are as many non-rude peopel that actually pvp as they say there are then the rude obnoxious comments should be very far and few in between relatively. They should be drowned out by the majority of the sportsmanship speech that goes on there by "majority" of the people. Not the other way around.
I have ~700-800 games (and about maybe 86% of that in direct hours) in MOBAs - a game where the only action is working with other people, and the grand majority of those times I've been playing against other people as well. This nets to a lot of PVP time (and in just one game-type, at that). Out of that entire experience, I've dealt with maybe ~30 people (and with two teams of three to five people, this means I've logged hours with a few thousand total strangers even if we discount people I play with regularly) that ruined the play experience for me. I reported all of them, and fully explained what they did to ruin that game for me. The majority of those were on my own team if we're keeping score (and I have cross-team chat enabled, so I see both my team and /all chat).
Of those thirty incidents, none of them were near as bad as I have seen on the forums, or for one game in particular (League of Legends) the player judgement system (Tribunal - where you get to review some of the worst cases in the game and help the Player Behavior department decide if that player should be punished; Overwhelmingly, of ~200 cases I've reviewed, I've punished 95% of them. I stopped reviewing cases because of how shocking some of the behavior was). However, of those thirty incidents, I remember all of them far more clearly then the games that went well, and I couldn't even tell you how the other people performed in those games (despite there generally being 9 other people in it).
The majority of the gaming community for MOBAs isn't bad - however, when you're looking at a large scale community (in MOBAs, some of these games have player bases in the millions), factoring in perceptive biases and the human mind's capacity for remembering and holding onto negativity longer, you'd almost think the entire game community for them was the worst pool of scum and villainy in existance (and believe me, it has it's dark spots - some of the worst dark spots I've seen outside of FPS games). It's not. The grand sweeping majority of the community is at best 'neutral' - they have good and bad days, but you're unlikely to remember those people.
As to code of conduct - rules are in place to set a standard of behavior. If those standards aren't met, you are both allowed and encouraged to report those individuals. The problem is when the moderation is over-taxed, lacking, or non-existant. What do you want the playerbase to do in that situation, when they have no real ability to force that person to stop? I can spend all day arguing with someone over why they're being an idiot, and tell them they need to stop, but if the main reason they're doing it is because they either want attention or are actively trying to make people mad, aren't I just encouraging and reinforcing that behavior without solving the problem? That solves absolutely nothing, and I refuse to expend effort on something that is unlikely to produce results, specifically for people that can't be bothered to do it their damn selves.
Don't blame a community for bad moderation, and for your feelings on it. We're all people, mate, and nobody likes being generalized.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Yeah. People do what they can get away with, right or wrong.
And it seems here either that the moderation is over-taxed, lacking, or non-existant and not much for people can do but either join them in the socially accepted behavior, or stay quiet about it not bring it up and let them have PvP and continue to watch the numbers there dwindle but same token should ask why pvp isnt being changed or pvp isnt getting this or focus isnt put on that aspect of the game due to low population created by people's behavior or say that is not majority of the people when people of the supposed "minority" have no qualms about acting like ruining other's experience while those that dont, say nothing or show themselves the positive side.
And it's like this. A robbery happens, you call the police. They never show. The robber returns and do it again, again police is called no one shows. They do it once more, again police never comes. Eventually a person usually will stop depending on the police to help them and either take matter into their own hands, which usually end up in a death whether it's the robber themself, the person trying to protect their property or someone caught in the cross fire. Of coruse they could just grow thicker skin and ignore it or move everytime they get robbed regardless of how long they been there and how much of their lives are tied to the area or the lack of funds or ability to move, buy into it's their fault for being robbed and not the person doing the robbing and let the robber continue to rob them or others. Or some might figure since robbing people is no longer paid attention to by the police, they might start robbing people themselves and so on. Which still remain, if someone can rob people without fear of anything happening to them of fear of enforcement of the law against robbing, then the point of that law written and existing is moot.
The way it seems it seems that type of behavior of insulting people for their skin tone, percieved sexual orientation, and telling them they all should stop mooching off the governement and commit suicide is accepted here contrary to the written rule, which it seems the rule do not apply and thus is moot and thus that behavior is not against the enforced rules and thus is a perfectly fine thing to do without fear of anything happening and it's not the person saying these things fault for saying these things as it's the fault of the target for being the target and being offended and even if they do finally report, there is nothign to fear as nothing will happen and they probably tell them it's their fault for not ignoring it in the first place. Thus there shouldnt be any fuss about it at all because it's allowed and the only breaking the rules is the person that didnt use the ignore button. I'll keep that in mind next time I pvp.
As to your analogy, it's weak. I'll give you a better one - the situation you are presenting is that you're, say, at a sports club and participating in what you thought was a friendly game (it was supposed to be, anyway). Someone (on your team or the opposition) gives you Hell over your performance. You should be going to the club manager (after disengaging from the situation - you do not benefit at this juncture from doing anything) and asking them to do something about it (have a talk with the problem person, or whatever). When the problem persists, you just give up, and yell at completely uninvolved people (other then that they frequent the same club) for not doing anything about it when they may not have even met the guy before. Which is the position I'm at - why is it suddenly my problem that you have issue with how some random person I neither know nor care about is giving you beef? Unless I'm actively involved (like being a participant in the match in question), I have no investment in it. I can, have, and will again tell people off if I'm there to do something about it and have investment in the situation, but I'm also not going to specifically go out of my way to do so. It doesn't really solve anything - sure, I could beat the dude up for you, but not only am I fighting your battle, now I'm in trouble for a violent offense on behalf of some random person.
What is and is not acceptable doesn't tend to vary, the entire problem is how the reaction to it plays out. You can let that guy get to you and ruin your enjoyment, or you can ignore that dude after taking the appropriate action. After that, what more do you expect from people? Again, I emphasize that there is nothing I can do to get this to stop outside of reporting the person myself - while that does flag them for it again, if I'm doing so without having witnessed the affair in question and just on your word, that leads to abuse cases.
You're not at fault for being targetted - that's asinine. You are, however, at fault for expecting me to do something about it when it's not my job, and I have no authority to do so, and when I haven't even seen the situation in question. You are also at fault for generalizing the entire PVP community, holistically, for the actions and attitudes of a select few. I imagine you wouldn't like having the same done to you, and I have no idea why you would do the same to others and somehow treat that as if it's okay. The hypocrisy is yours.
To emphasize: The appropriate reaction is to report and ignore offenders. Responding to them only worsens the problem, though it is acceptable to ask them to lay off if you think you can do so in a way that doesn't get you in trouble as well. After that, there's not a lot you or I can do for it. If this truly is hard for you to rationalize, I may have to recommend avoiding PVP or situations likewise where there are sportmanship concerns.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Actually your analogy is off a bit there.
And again, I'm not saying a person should respond directly to that person at all. Again, I say, they dont even have to say a single word to that person nor am I talking confronting the offending party.
I'm talking about...it's like say you have a group of people that belong to a group. The ones that seem to respresent the group keeps saying that the group stands for hating on blacks and homesexuals and all of them should die a horrible death. Now it's possible that everyone part of that group dont believe in that nor even want anythign to do with that type of thing but yet they stay with thegroup but dont give out words on their own, to the contrary.
As I said, think about three time already, People are quick to pipe up and say not all are like that but yet, on their own, again NOT CONFRONTING THE OFFENDING PARTY, show it to be the contrary.
On any given day in PVP you can see in chat, two people go at it and it turns into either a racial insult, sexuality insult or doing scrazy stuff sexually to people parents. Yet, what is wrong with the so called "majority" in chat just doing the opposite? "Good fight." "Hey, you almost had me. We'll fight again." etc? Instead of saying they are part of the group but inreality they are not being alone outside of chat and only fighting among their friends. Then that is not the group I'm talking about nor are they part of the group I'm talking about. I mean, if people can be rude andnasty in public chat why not combat it, again NOT COMBAT THE PERSON, with the way it should be done. If they are truely the majority as they say then the rude stuff would be far in between and watered down in concentration. And people will see this and see that majority of the folk are decent instead of the way it's now, the "majority" silent and among themselves and not speaking or showing how they act, and letting the loud relative few look like they are the majority.
But if that is not feasible in itself and the "majority" is not in fact the actual majority, the mods dont give a crap about that type behavior of racism, sexism, and saying that certain groups should all die or as one put it,all n(word) should hang from a tree and that will fix the economy because then they wont be able to reproduce, live a lazy lifestyle doing drugs, on welfare and using government money to commit crimes", then why not erase it from the written rules and just let it fly? What's the point of even saying it's against the rules if no one the mdoerators (NOT PARTICULARLY THE PLAYERS) can or willing to do anything about it, if the players dont care about it even if they dont believe it's true, and those that do it and say that stuff have no fear of repricussions (again from the moderators) even though it's supposedly written?
Your problem here is thinking that the PVP community is somehow some magically tight, cohesive group - it isn't. It's no different then the PVE community, and is just as fractured, splintered, and made up of cliques and associations. It has it's loners and it's drifters, the same as PVE. Because outside of a different mentality and mindset, there is no difference. And some of those people? Are in both groups and communities.
I take issue with a lot of people's thoughts and opinions on the PVE side of things, and I have just as much problem with people on the PVP side of things, in most games I play. Maybe it's because I like both gameplay aspects it gives me some unique perspective, but I really doubt that.
You're demonizing people for the actions of people they may not even know or associate with. Your attempts to justify it are unsatisfactory. I am completely, and utterly, failing to understand your viewpoint here. Help me figure out why it's okay to hate on PVP for this, but it's totally acceptable for me to have to deal with it in PVE (and it has happened before - I've dealt with the same idiotic drivel from the PVE side of the equation that I have from the PVP side of it), without making it sound like blatant hypocrisy.
I'll say it again - why is it my job to police an entire community? I don't generally go out of my way to hunt down someone that says something horrible to complete strangers in PVE, why is this the only reaction in a PVP community? Why should I fight your battles for you in one community and not the other?
I see the same exact junk in PVE as well, and in forums and communities across the internet and in real life. What makes PVP so special that you feel it's fine to ignore problems that plague any community, while decrying the same faults to PVPers? Why isn't the same logic and rationalization for dealing with it in A not acceptable or logical in B?
I don't find it acceptable anywhere I find it, but I treat it the same whether I run into it in PVE, or PVP. I apply the same steps to dealing with that problem, and I don't try and treat them somehow like they're magically different - they aren't. Explain to me why they are.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
What I'm getting at is why is it ok for anyone as it seems to be the case?
You definately misinterperated what I said. I didnt said it was the other people job to police up other people.Its' the moderators job, which they dont seem too keen on doing and let it go and allow it. I said that more than a few times at this point but seems to be overlooked and end up translated into meaning I'm syaing the people should confront every last one of them in a show of mob justice. No, I dont think I can make it any clearer. NO it's not the player's job to confront the people. That should be the moderators job. But what they can do especially in pvp, if and since they are the majority, show what the majority act like because as it seems the "minority" is calling the shots and making most of the comments on the chat channels which make it look like the majority of the people that speak there are in the habit of insulting people's mother, race, sex, life.
And it's not specifically pve side but since PVP was the subject at hand of the matter at the time that is what I noticed in PVP. I noticed that behavior in PVE either and it's not right, but at this point if no one gives a crap about that type of behavior and it's seems to be accepted what would have been the point in introducing PVE into the discussion if it's already allowed in an even smaller group than PVE? I just assumed since it seemed that that behavior is ok and allowed in PVP then it's probably the same way for PVE. You can take my statements, replace PVP with PVE and most of it would be the same. It's not PVP or PVE but the players. Some do both and carry the behavior of tha sort in PVE just as much as they do in PVP. Hell, some of them dont PVE and still say stuff I mentioned.
But either way, what I gather it's ok to be racist, sexist, and insult anything that moves. PVP and PVE it seems.
It isn't, and that's been my entire point - I've stated numerous times that the appropriate logic and rationale is the same for PVE and PVP, you keep making statements to the contrary. I've stated numerous times that it's the moderator's job to handle it, and you continuely and actively questioned that.
Here's an example:
Why is it my job to confront the offending party here? If it's not what you're trying to say, then phrase it better. Why am I being 'contrary' in stating that your opinion of an entire community is faulty because you're singling out the biggest offenders in it like it's somehow okay and justifies your feelings?
Welp, this conversation is over. If that's honestly what you're taking away from what I'm saying, then you're just as guilty of not reading as I apparently am. There is a clear failure of communication, and I don't care to waste further time and effort attempting to fix that. There's clearly no point in further discussion if such hyperbole is viewed as an acceptable response.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Am i"m not questioning. You're making an argument on something we agree on. We are saying the same thing. It's the moderator's job.
In the bolded part, right there in the middle I said, again NOT CONFRONTING THE OFFENDING PARTY, meaning, I'm not saying it's your or anyone else job besides the moderator's. And I have not even touched on the portion about my feelings much yet and only what I actually have seen. Are you suggesting that behavior dont exist, even after you said it does in PVE and PVP alike? I doubt it, but then it looks like ya saying I shouldnt have any feelings about it at all and again it's on me for seeing it as a bad thing when people talk like that.
And that fine. The minds seem to be made up. You seem intent on misreading my statements and saying the things that I already been saying but saying I'm not, and it's abig deal if someone find a problem with that type of behavior as if everyone is supposed to be ok with it and not say anythign about it and wonder why it's not being addressed by the moderators. And this proves the problem. When someone do say these things exist, it's the problem of the person bringing it up for bringing it up and being bothered by it and not the person that says racist things or sexist things or the other stuff, pve or pvp. I'll keep it in mind. Hey, if it's accepted it and no one have problem with it then, then ok. I guess this is a subject that probably wont be brought up again, my bad, for being "Offended by talks of black peopel should hang, and all homosexuals should be castrated." My error. And that is not hyperbole. That is actual statements I have personally seen in PVP and in PVE.
But no wonder they do it, even people like you who seem to say they dont believe in it, cover for those people. No wonder they do it and probably will continue to do it.
No matter, I guess it's my problem, and looks like I have no choice next time but take matters into my own hand, but even if they get offended, it's their fault.
Well nice talking to ya. If I see ya in game, I probably just accepted the social norm of speaking to people by then. Dont take it personal. It's how people supposed to speak around here apparently to each other and no one supposed to point it out and we all supposed to just pretend it dont exist. But hey, I guess they since they havent came out with a new Ethnic Cleansing game in a while, those players had to go somewhere.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
ok just had a visual. That would be funny as hell to see.
I dunno, maybe it's just personal experience. I don't see PVP any different then sports - you have two teams of people playing against each other of various sizes, with various agreed upon goals.
Sometimes it's like basketball, sometimes it's like hockey, and sometimes it's just boxing (two men enter, both men leave with brain damage!).
PVP communities, therefore, are more reminisicent of private, amateur-league sports clubs. Only anyone can enter and get into a game with anyone else for the most part. There is functionally no different IMO as far as mindset goes outside of the lack of personal and physical interaction (as the internet provides anonymity and distance barriers, and you never actually touch anyone).
Also Qularr don't have tails, and they'd just destroy the puny rocking chairs. Your analogy is not much better! I am, at this moment, writing my congressman to complain about this very matter.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Story by Bioware (liberate them from EA, somehow...)
Game by Arenanet.
Visual customization somewhere like CO.
Steal the Archetype system from CoX, but make you pick two (one major, one minor), and then give you two fixed powers (selectable from a list) that contribute to the two roles you've chosen. Then pick a resource method (buildable power bar, slowly draining energy bar, combo attacks, cooldowns).
In addition to the role powers, pick two basic attacks and a self-heal. Basic attacks are usable freely, and will contribute to whatever resource generation method you choose. Then pick an offensive or defensive buff (kind of like Active Offenses/Defenses here) or a big attack/heal (kind of like how T4s should have been here) that's usable as a supermove when a bar is filled. Also pick either a dodge, block or parry (kind of like the blocks here).
Then you get six active power slots (like heals, attacks, Crowd Control, party buffs, debuffs, whatever) and four utility power slots (self buffs, kits, interaction powers, etc). You fill those slots with your choice of...eh, around 20 powers you pick (so you can't have all the powers you've chosen slotted at once). You can change your slotted powers at any time out of combat.
"Ideally", any combination of five characters can clear anything in the game. They just have to do it differently.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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That there sounds like a great game.
NCsoft has a crippling fear of money? Quite the contrary. Ever heard of the Guild Wars franchise, that humongous cash cow? CoH just wasn't giving profits according to their expectations so they pulled the plug without having the basic respect or acknowledgement for the loyal players who have supported the product, especially those who have been from the beginning.
If Wildstar Online doesn't do well according to NCsoft's expectations, don't be surprised if it gets its plug pulled at a moment's notice too.
basically.
Expectations probably had a role in it. The profits sound like a lot to one but may be pennies to another's expectation and not worth it.
Some people will wait at the cashier no matter how long it takes for 2 pennies in change. Others, two pennies are not worth the time opf waiting, even if it means losing two pennies, money by definition that would add to the amount of money already in their pocket.
It's a book by Austin Grossman, author of Soon I Will be Invincible.
It's got a game designed in it that has the deep storytelling game experience that you all think this game lacks.