I'm not taking anything personal in particular (I never let anything bother me if I can help it - if it does bother me, I just don't post and go do something more worth my time). I'm just noticing a bad trend that I really don't think provides anything constructive or necessary to the discussion, at all, and doing my best to throw up a roadblock so we can detour around that jazz and go back to talking about stuff like well-mannered adults (however far we are from that mark - I have no illusions that 'well-mannered' and 'adult' are not words people would use to describe me at all. And if they are, screw you guys, I don't like slander. :P).
I also don't mind you having your opinion - that's fine, as long as it's an informed opinion (I am of the firm belief that you are not, infact, entitled to your opinion - you are, instead, entitled to your informed opinion. Ignorance is entitled to no one). We don't have to agree on the subject to get along (and infact, it appears we don't; That's fine, I took that into heavy consideration in my previous critiques to try and be respectful to those desires).
I am, however, finding the way you are expressing that opinion to be rude, unnecessarily aggressive, and insulting. That, I am not cool with. I'm all for talking about things you don't like, but if you can't do it in a mature fashion then maybe you need to take a moment to chill out until you can. You're doing yourselves no favors, and more importantly, wasting everyone's time.
I'm not taking anything personal in particular (I never let anything bother me if I can help it - if it does bother me, I just don't post and go do something more worth my time). I'm just noticing a bad trend that I really don't think provides anything constructive or necessary to the discussion, at all, and doing my best to throw up a roadblock so we can detour around that jazz and go back to talking about stuff like well-mannered adults (however far we are from that mark - I have no illusions that 'well-mannered' and 'adult' are not words people would use to describe me at all. And if they are, screw you guys, I don't like slander. :P).
And you're correct- I want this back on track. Some primo editing is required, and we were doing well when we had things discussed to the point where there was a reason 'why' things were limited in scope, not to mention the idea ealier about the tailoring and customizing of powers that Biff brought up- which would actually be pretty awesome.
I also don't mind you having your opinion - that's fine, as long as it's an informed opinion (I am of the firm belief that you are not, infact, entitled to your opinion - you are, instead, entitled to your informed opinion. Ignorance is entitled to no one). We don't have to agree on the subject to get along (and infact, it appears we don't; That's fine, I took that into heavy consideration in my previous critiques to try and be respectful to those desires).
Most of what you're saying, I -do- agree with. Hence the request for feedback (did look into game mechanics, especially when it was about animal heads and such, because I was going to do something about multiple limbs), and it got somewhere.
However, as far as informed opinions goes- I don't need detailed information on kimchee to have the opinion that it stinks and I dislike it. You -are- allowed to have an opinion based on what you like based on something as simple as initial impressions and face value, if that's how you choose to live.
I am, however, finding the way you are expressing that opinion to be rude, unnecessarily aggressive, and insulting. That, I am not cool with. I'm all for talking about things you don't like, but if you can't do it in a mature fashion then maybe you need to take a moment to chill out until you can. You're doing yourselves no favors, and more importantly, wasting everyone's time.
Actually, I could very well be. I'll admit fault when I say I tend to lash out when someone makes a comparison to a dislike of fandom to Nazism, and actually spending part of my childhood with someone who's been in a concentration camp really, really opened my eyes- and that's not something I take lightly. I still very legitimately believe it's beyond disrespectful to label someone a 'Nazi' because they don't like what you like, or even hate what you don't like- it's not only disrespectful, but self-absorbed and disturbing to make such a comparison.
Compared to that, I believe, calling someone a 'pervert' for liking something and not wanting certain elements of a subculture in your game is mild. There are things I like that I am certain plenty of people hate, and are quite vocal about it. I just notice a trend between a couple of these interests- there are a select few that are treated like they are more than what they are, and the general reaction to them is the same as if it were legitimate hate speech.
May be mild in comparison, but it's still insulting, as you're generalizing a whole lot of people and putting them all in the same boat.
I've taken the time to clean up a bunch of this thread when it went off the rails. Let's get it back on track, and if anyone's going to discuss the pros and cons of different themes within games, let's do so in a civil manner. I don't want to have to start forwarding names to Turtle.
However, as far as informed opinions goes- I don't need detailed information on kimchee to have the opinion that it stinks and I dislike it. You -are- allowed to have an opinion based on what you like based on something as simple as initial impressions and face value, if that's how you choose to live.
That's not really what I'm suggesting at all. For example, I don't like kimchee either. However, I tend to express my dislike in more respectful fashions. Mostly, because I stop and think about why I don't like it. It's generally overspiced and it's overall presentation isn't something I'm fond of. Because I have an informed opinion of the matter, I'm better able to communicate that displeasure effectively and without being rude about it. That's the key point I'm trying to make here, overall. To sum it up simply - work on how you're saying things, you're coming off aggressive and that's causing people to respond in kind.
Actually, I could very well be. I'll admit fault when I say I tend to lash out when someone makes a comparison to a dislike of fandom to Nazism, and actually spending part of my childhood with someone who's been in a concentration camp really, really opened my eyes- and that's not something I take lightly. I still very legitimately believe it's beyond disrespectful to label someone a 'Nazi' because they don't like what you like, or even hate what you don't like- it's not only disrespectful, but self-absorbed and disturbing to make such a comparison.
Compared to that, I believe, calling someone a 'pervert' for liking something and not wanting certain elements of a subculture in your game is mild. There are things I like that I am certain plenty of people hate, and are quite vocal about it. I just notice a trend between a couple of these interests- there are a select few that are treated like they are more than what they are, and the general reaction to them is the same as if it were legitimate hate speech.
Think about what you're doing for a minute. You're flipping the proverbial table at someone for doing exactly what you're doing. Stow that hypocritical junk and actually think about what you're doing and how it's perceived.
I'm not saying you should be okay with someone making a gross exaggeration (they did, we both know it, let's stop bringing up the obvious). I am, however, saying it's stupid to do the exact same thing and treat it like it's okay. It's not, at least not anywhere that's not an elementary school playground. Just because someone else is being a prat doesn't give you a free pass to do the exact same thing, and avoid being called out on it.
May be mild in comparison, but it's still insulting, as you're generalizing a whole lot of people and putting them all in the same boat.
I've taken the time to clean up a bunch of this thread when it went off the rails. Let's get it back on track, and if anyone's going to discuss the pros and cons of different themes within games, let's do so in a civil manner. I don't want to have to start forwarding names to Turtle.
Then you might want to hit the last couple of posts? Didn't know you were working on it.
Also, I'll politely say this- even though I like the guy, the fact that this post:
Is that one of those military things?
You don't know something you throw your hands in the air and give up?
Doesn't get the same look-over and consideration as the other generalized statements is cause for concern, considering that it's roughly the same thing- and could come off as insulting as well (it did at first, and then I was like "wait, that's Nextnametaken, that's how he trolls- I mean rolls and I like that guy."). However, I'm not offended- especially since he did drop some decent reading, I was able to roll with the joke and work with it.
As I was saying- and actually, Biff, you brought up a really good point.
I would probably think it'd work way better to scratch the specific Genome idea. I like the idea of, in a nutshell, having a list of powers and simply tailoring your own cosmetic effects.
As far as the not-wanted themes go, I made the point earlier about animal-type heads being absolute heaps of disappointment in CO. With an animal head, you'd nearly need an entirely new set of head and face accessories to make it balanced across the board- and I do dislike the idea of having certain things like costumes not work for certain groups- but I am also aware of the fact that for nearly each and every type of animal head, you'd have to create its own specific part for the individual.
Not to mention, I'd like to have some degree of facial customization and such- and you'd be looking at an entirely new set of sliders and... yeah. CO's animal heads are the perfect example- there's nothing you can do with it, just take it as it is. I'd rather not have something at all, than to have a botched version of it, but that's just me.
I would simply take everything good about Champions (character creator, freeform system) and work on a better, more active combat system (let's make every attack a no-target "AoE", Assault Rifle being a 100 ft line that you can fire at any given time, for example, but targeting will still work, melee attacks have an AoE effectiveness to them at all times, including formerly Single Target combos), whilst adding in the ability to actually AVOID attacks via dodging and movement. The days of the Homing Boulder should end.
That's all. Any sort of hero should be welcomed, be it comic inspired, anime, furry (note to staff: more better bestial heads and cuter ones too, grinning wolves are getting old, just nose-paint as a facial makeup will do), with all of the caveats and problems that come with it. Speaking of which, I redacted this line because ... well, LOOK! You know it's bad because he's actually CONCERNED!
Speaking of which, I highly suggest checking out [THAT SITE] it's hilarious.
I have to ask you not to post that, maybe give it an edit. Some people will look through that and realize how sweet and accepting I am in comparison. It's... not kind.
Me? I think it's hilarious. But I don't mention it here for a reason.
I've kind of felt that about you since your first posts in this thread.
That's fine. I make an effort to be blunt and direct, and not everyone takes that very well. I also generally don't feel the need to pull punches or sugar-coat when I critique someone with the intent of helping.
Do you have anything more topic-relevant, though? Because that's not really adding anything to the discussion or relates a whole lot to the OP, either, and we've been kind of trying to stay focused here (or that's what I keep throwing words at supporting, at any rate).
So since it's come up a bit, I think it's important to point out a topic I brought up earlier but didn't really put a lot of details into mentioning - cohesion of theme.
This is a really big, important thing that if you're designing something, you should dedicate time to thinking about. The biggest part of that is understanding what the theme is, and how you want to define it. If we assume our overarching theme is 'Comic Books', we quickly come to the idea that if we research this it starts to feel like there's not a lot of cohesion at all depending on how wide or narrow our band is. There's a good reason for that, though.
Most of the research we can do here runs into some various obvious problems - for one, comic books in general span a very long period of time, with human culture changing and mutating around them. There's also multiple different companies that try to have their own style and thematics, that further break things down. If we're going to maintain cohesion (and thus have it look and feel less slapdash and random), it's probably wise to narrow our band down. This helps establish a target to aim at, and thus makes it easier for designers (art, environment, content) to make things that support our overall goal with the theme itself.
Other things you need to think about here - your target audience. When defining your theme, you need to be aware of what kind of audience you're wanting to reach with that theme. This is where market research and the like really comes in handy, as most of the time that can tell you what people in your target audience like. Then you can decide how to appease those people within your theme, or get an idea of why you wouldn't want to do that. Your goal should be to reach as wide an audience as possible, while maintaining as cohesive a theme as possible.
CO is a good example of a game that's probably tried to diversify a bit too much, and as a result has a very clear and distinct lack of theme cohesion. There's some attempt at making it fit a certain accepted visual style, but it still creates situations and things that look wildly out of place. If we're willing to break away from comics, we can also find things that generally have a more tighter band on theme - Guild Wars 1, for example, did a very good job of maintaining a visually distinct and cohesive theme. There was a lot of cultural barriers, but on top of narratively justifying them (different isolated continents do tend to have vastly different styles of architecture and the like), they still managed to make everything look like one, cohesive world.
Superhero games are probably the hardest settings to maintain cohesiveness, because so few people knuckle down as hard on just how far away from the 'core' theme it's acceptable to go with things like costumes, powers, and the like. City-Of did an admirable job, but they ultimately fell short (especially towards the tail end) in maintaining a strictly cohesive theme (also of note - they had a technical and story design 'bible' that they stuck to throughout the game's lifetime, which is a very good plan). DCUO makes an attempt at it visually, and while they do make some significant strides there the overall cohesion breaks down a bit (nevermind that a lot of it is enforced by just not giving too many options in the first place). CO probably has the biggest problem with it, but even that isn't a huge problem in and of itself (though it's a semi-common complaint against the game).
Repeating previous sentiments - look at what, how, and why other people have done things when designing. Use that to help you shape your ideas, but beware of survivorship bias - don't just look at what they do well, look at what they don't. Don't just look at 'successful' games, either. Look at all the ones that don't do as well (or outright fail), and find out why. Then try to avoid falling into the exact same pitfalls.
Repeating previous sentiments - look at what, how, and why other people have done things when designing. Use that to help you shape your ideas, but beware of survivorship bias - don't just look at what they do well, look at what they don't. Don't just look at 'successful' games, either. Look at all the ones that don't do as well (or outright fail), and find out why. Then try to avoid falling into the exact same pitfalls.
Design is serious business, treat it that way.
This is actually pretty crucial in what I've seen. I've been reading up and looking for stats on how certain MMORPG's are faring right now, and trying to find a correlation. Granted, I'm not too far into it... but I'm looking to see if what a company did has some affect on the game's success or failure.
Being said, the thing I don't want to do is what seems like occurs too often: "WoW is successful, so it should be fantasy!"
I also think that 'gap' in the genres needs to be filled, and originally? I wanted science fiction.
For a lot of people, this game is a genre-less grab-bag of powers and costumes.
To those of us that like Western comic books, it kinda degrades the experience when you're fighting alongside characters you don't normally see in the genre.
For instance, I don't go to anime RPGs and be like "This is BS, I'm not gonna play this because there's not enough Indiana Jones characters here." Or try to make Pokemon in a Hello Kitty game. Or try to make Perry Mason in an all-girl anime fighting game. Or make Western super hero characters in Robotech. Or make giant sweaty machinegun men in Furry games.
Some things just don't fit in lots of genres, and for every bit that the Champions team adds to the game that isn't normally found in the genre they're playing in, the less it becomes of that genre, and you end up with a game that has no theme other than "anything goes."
Well, not to be a rain on peoples parades but......
honestly if champions was degraded to only having one world, and one lump sum of tight wearing, or cowboys, or robots.....yeah you'd have about 50 people online right now tops....maybe 60....
The thing about the super hero games that have come out and been successful thus far, not including marvel universe because well.....it hasn't aged enough to determine.
The formula for keeping people interest, no matter if its champs, DC online, or city of heroes is, "We're not forcing you into being the hero we want you to be."
I mean if you wanted to be the hero the franchise wanted you to be you'd be playing a different game and genre all together.
If you want to live in a world full of old western stereotypes, or chinese warlords, there are games specifically devoted to that, because those ideas have a huge following.
With super heroes though, the super hero idea and franchise by itself has a HUGE following, but along with that following comes an even bigger SPLIT.
People that are into the spawn universe may not be into the wolverine/spiderman universe. People that are into the Japanese archtypical heroes/universes may not be into the steam punk old west type universes.
Game worlds....if I could separate them into their core followings.
China-Journey to the west, the three kingdoms, its been retold, resold, redone a million times, and it works because, people love kung fu. And asian wars.
Urban Warfare- You got a city, you got guns, you got targets, doesn't matter what it is you have shooting a thing, or what the city looks like or what kind of guns you're using....guns...guns....thats all that needs to be said....guns.
Medieval- The legend of Rohan, the battle of the humans vs the monsters blah blah castles sword and armor and shiz. Self explanatory you have played these games, huge following is huge.
Robo Tech- Anything with electrodes in it, microchips, giant robots, space ships, floating things blah blah, you know what I'm talking about this sells itself, self explanitory. Huge following.
Zombies/post apocolyptica- People love these worlds, survival combat, vampires, all that wierd **** you see on sci fi crap B movies goes here, huge following.
Now, with super heroes- The problem with super hero games being of a single form, is the same reason anime games have to fall back on a famous title rather than a form, and even then, you won't ever see dragon ball Z online come to the states because even though it has a big following, its not gonna get every anime geek to cross over. Anime games, and super hero esque games have 2 choices, you either fall back and create a world based around the most successful comic/story out there, or you let your players emmerse themselves in a player driven world full of their own ideas.
Because anime and super heroes can easily fall into zombie, robo, midieval, urban warfare, and china, plus a bunch of other top genres, all of their game audiences from an advertisement level have to be either specialized or you just say miff it, and keep a small following and let the other titles that focus fully on zombie robo castles stay ahead of your numbers.
The anime world and games out there have yet to make a solid unified anime game style experience that lets you eat at a buffet instead of a small **** backyard restaurant.
Champions is different, and has the potential to be even bigger than what it already is.
Both super heroes and Anime whatevers won't be successful unless they give that player choice. And I know marvels game is out there, and even though its a huge franchise and name....yeah star wars was a big name too, look how far that **** went.
By giving Anime fans and super hero fans a piece of paper basically and saying, hey, be what you want, and interact in a world that features places where your super heroes and anime thingys have been. You create a net that can pull in any fan of any super hero genre, and any fan of any anime genre. Thus creating a full following of people that "are into super heroes" or people that "Are into anime".
Until you can unify those anime and super hero heads which are split into like 50 different categories by themselves under one roof, you wont see as big as a following as you get from the standard midieval china modern warfare zombie games.
And I know this was probably a ***** to read. My apologies.
honestly if champions was degraded to only having one world, and one lump sum of tight wearing, or cowboys, or robots.....yeah you'd have about 50 people online right now tops....maybe 60....
If Champions went full-on Western comic books theme ranging from the golden age to the modern age, you'd have hundreds of thousands of people on right now.
I can make up numbers too, doesn't make them right.
Honestly, if I found another game that had Champions' character creator (both costume and character-building) and it stuck strictly to an actual comic book superhero theme, I'd jump ship from here in a second.
If some new director of development got it in his head that the next zone was going to be superneomegatokyo and introduced mechs and new anime-inspired powersets, I'd jump ship from here in a second. That's just not my bag, and not what I was expecting when I bought the game.
You don't know that there's not people out there who dislike this game because it has no creative direction. You don't know who left the game or won't even try it for whatever reason. You can't say "Champions without anime would be a disaster," unless you have the ability to look into an alternate future where this game has a solid, thematic foundation.
If Champions went full-on Western comic books theme ranging from the golden age to the modern age, you'd have hundreds of thousands of people on right now.
I honestly thought that was pretty much what we had at launch, and for a while after.
I honestly thought that was pretty much what we had at launch, and for a while after.
Game launched with lots of mech looking pieces. Too much medieval stuff. Too much armor and junk. Demonic stuff, spikes, wings, all sorts of stuff that aren't the "mainstream" parts of normal heroes. And we had anime hairstyles from the get-go.
At least that's how I remember it, the game catering to lots of genres right off the bat.
Personally, I'd have the power system work via selecting a power type, and then picking forms of enamation and attacks associated with that power.
I do not see any way to avoid the crazy seemingly mishmashed characters that make no sense except that their powers happen to be the most optimal for PvP.
Otherwise, most of the other changes I would make would be aesthetic or setting related, such as ensuring that every building is accessible in city zones, even if that means there's a grocery store social hub somewhere in the city.
I would definitely try for more variety in mission settings. We've all griped about the sheer amount of sewers, caves, and warehouses in this game, but it doesn't bother us much beyond the initial annoyance.
Nightclubs, hotel rooms, and so much more could be used. The only issue is a high chance of creating an instance and objects that could only be used in that instance, increasing the memory the game takes up for little benefit beyond variety.
But that is a big benefit.
I also would probably make it so that players learn to read the quest text more. But to be honest, I would probably try to scrap the age old quest system we know for something a bit more dynamic.
Lastly, I would try to implement a system where heroic characters can fight against villainious characters, both in PvE and PvP, via the effects of generated quests and fighting instances, the effect of which is displayed by NPCs and difficulty of the relevant areas.
For example, if the heroes are winning, then the villains of the city have to retreat to more secluded areas or even have to hide in inaccessible instances the heroes cannot access. But if the villains are winning, the city becomes more oppressive and dark, with citizens attacking heroes verbally for making things terrible by turning it into a turf war.
If it gets bad enough, the heroes end up becoming a hidden pocket resistance under an iron fist.
Also to this, I would add that there would be minimal instances or shards if possible. One problem Champions has in my opinion is that beyond social areas and respawn points, the city can feel a bit empty, and you do feel a bit alone if you're playing on your own, unless you're lucky enough to spot someone else doing stuff near you. So, by dumping everyone into one world, or by locking characters to certain shards, then the world will feel more full, perhaps.
Personally, I'd have the power system work via selecting a power type, and then picking forms of enamation and attacks associated with that power.
I do not see any way to avoid the crazy seemingly mishmashed characters that make no sense except that their powers happen to be the most optimal for PvP.
I like it, I like it a lot. Rather than have the mishmashed powers that lack theme (which is actually, for some reason what bugs me the most)- It'd be a lot more... simple to have those powers as [Rate/Damage Type/Range/Target]. Easily one man's 'Two-gun Mojo' could be the next guy's 'Throw knives everywhere' attack or something. Change some things around and you're basically giving the player a developer's tool. This could go for each and every power.
A streamlined genome system could still be used- but more so to help someone create an archetype without having to get too far into the guts of the system.
Otherwise, most of the other changes I would make would be aesthetic or setting related, such as ensuring that every building is accessible in city zones, even if that means there's a grocery store social hub somewhere in the city.
I would definitely try for more variety in mission settings. We've all griped about the sheer amount of sewers, caves, and warehouses in this game, but it doesn't bother us much beyond the initial annoyance.
Nightclubs, hotel rooms, and so much more could be used. The only issue is a high chance of creating an instance and objects that could only be used in that instance, increasing the memory the game takes up for little benefit beyond variety.
But that is a big benefit.
I like this, and I'd love to see bigger worlds. It's these little things that make the difference, and on the first 'whoa!' impression, you get hooked.
I also would probably make it so that players learn to read the quest text more. But to be honest, I would probably try to scrap the age old quest system we know for something a bit more dynamic.
That's why I want a story system- I like the idea of having a personal story, something that brings me into it- not the same-old fight 'n fetch that you'd give any random schmuck that walked up.
For example, if the heroes are winning, then the villains of the city have to retreat to more secluded areas or even have to hide in inaccessible instances the heroes cannot access. But if the villains are winning, the city becomes more oppressive and dark, with citizens attacking heroes verbally for making things terrible by turning it into a turf war.
If it gets bad enough, the heroes end up becoming a hidden pocket resistance under an iron fist.
Also to this, I would add that there would be minimal instances or shards if possible. One problem Champions has in my opinion is that beyond social areas and respawn points, the city can feel a bit empty, and you do feel a bit alone if you're playing on your own, unless you're lucky enough to spot someone else doing stuff near you. So, by dumping everyone into one world, or by locking characters to certain shards, then the world will feel more full, perhaps.
Both of these are fantastic ideas, especially the dynamic world. I'd never thought of that. Anything to make it more of a living world would be much more awesome.
CO doesn't feel really comic book because it's graphic stylisation. It's a big turn off. I were showing this game to few people and graphics were always the problem.
It was either compared to the Ultimate Spiderman game or superhero movies (or even actual comic books and stylised cartoons like Batman Beyond) and always dismissed - no mather favorite age of comic books, CO often fails in this department.
One of the first requirements for superhero mmo would be to actually LOOK like a comic book inspired game.
If Champions went full-on Western comic books theme ranging from the golden age to the modern age, you'd have hundreds of thousands of people on right now.
I can make up numbers too, doesn't make them right.
Honestly, if I found another game that had Champions' character creator (both costume and character-building) and it stuck strictly to an actual comic book superhero theme, I'd jump ship from here in a second.
If some new director of development got it in his head that the next zone was going to be superneomegatokyo and introduced mechs and new anime-inspired powersets, I'd jump ship from here in a second. That's just not my bag, and not what I was expecting when I bought the game.
You don't know that there's not people out there who dislike this game because it has no creative direction. You don't know who left the game or won't even try it for whatever reason. You can't say "Champions without anime would be a disaster," unless you have the ability to look into an alternate future where this game has a solid, thematic foundation.
Not making up numbers here, and the reason we don't have the same population here as we did from launch is a completely different reason than thematics.
Theres a reason why artists like Todd Mcfarlane and other non traditional super/hero/antihero/comic creators sell as much as they do, because people get tired of the same hello kitty happy go lucky tight spandex cape thing thats been repeated for the past 40 to 50 years. The following was small back then, and is still small now. Don't believe me? Check a Barnes and noble for a spandex comic section. Then compare the amount of content they have there to the amount of Vampire/post apocalyptic/zombie horror themed stuff that isn't even a comic. (Does it mean readers in general are more dark and edgy loving than before, should we be afraid? Probably.)
There are only so many heroes who have pulled off that direction and made it last for years long enough to still stay relavent to 12 year olds. The rest....well....Iron man had one one of the biggest grossing films this year, while super man....be honest people went to go see that because Pacific Rim and Will Smiths movies weren't out yet.
And if you wanna go on about tights, just look at wolverines reaction when they showed him that ridiculous blue and yellow suit. Pretty sure he'd pick jeans and a T-shirt any day. So if Stan Lee has enough brass to think its corny and he's one of the biggest proliferators of the genre, I'm pretty sure its corny. Its like wearing Bell bottoms and 6 inch fish bowl platform shoes in 2013....how practical is that.....really. One of the heroes from the incredibles died from hanging himself on his cape.....safety hazard.
Its just not practical for that to be the go to standard. Its cool that its there, its cool that it exists, but, not offering the other options out there for creating a hero just limits you to falling back on your IP or title or franchise being the biggest pull you have.
Its the reason why Star Trek, our own developers game has such a huge following, its the reason Marvel had the opening numbers it did, (even though theres spider man fans out there who wont even give it a chance because wtf is the point of playing a game with spider man if you can't shot web off of buildings and swing around the sky and generally be spider man....).
DC online is doing the same thing, but they realized early that in order to push that game they'd have to offer something other than "be batman" If I wanted to be batman I'd play the PC game completely devoted to "being batman". By offering the choices they have that are, (pretty much a rip off in similarity to the options in champs and city of heroes.) By offering those choices they're able to pull in people who don't just like golden age heroes. Thus making it an mmo, instead of a game that people play to look like that other guy with the cape, but wear pink instead of blue and red.
I know its rediculous from a true comic die hard genre stand point, but realistically.....walk out to the middle of millinium city and try to count the amount of golden age heroes.....now count the amount of GI Joe looking, Robotic, Alien Cat Girl mofos. Don't take my word for it. Speaks for itself.
Now if you were to take away the option to be that GI joe looking cobra command/dinosaur/aliens vs predator/catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime/Droid looking characters, and say, ok you can only look like "this". This game would have died last year if not sooner.
Like I said people didn't leave after opening because they only wanted to be golden age, because that option was available. People left because of the same reasons we ***** on the forums to this day. Content. Balance. PVP. And money.
DC online is doing the same thing, but they realized early that in order to push that game they'd have to offer something other than "be batman" If I wanted to be batman I'd play the PC game completely devoted to "being batman". By offering the choices they have that are, (pretty much a rip off in similarity to the options in champs and city of heroes.) By offering those choices they're able to pull in people who don't just like golden age heroes. Thus making it an mmo, instead of a game that people play to look like that other guy with the cape, but wear pink instead of blue and red.
QFT. By being flexible they have allowed more potentially paying customers. In the end, more customers means more money for development.
Not making up numbers here, and the reason we don't have the same population here as we did from launch is a completely different reason than thematics.
Theres a reason why artists like Todd Mcfarlane and other non traditional super/hero/antihero/comic creators sell as much as they do, because people get tired of the same hello kitty happy go lucky tight spandex cape thing thats been repeated for the past 40 to 50 years. The following was small back then, and is still small now. Don't believe me? Check a Barnes and noble for a spandex comic section. Then compare the amount of content they have there to the amount of Vampire/post apocalyptic/zombie horror themed stuff that isn't even a comic. (Does it mean readers in general are more dark and edgy loving than before, should we be afraid? Probably.)
There are only so many heroes who have pulled off that direction and made it last for years long enough to still stay relavent to 12 year olds. The rest....well....Iron man had one one of the biggest grossing films this year, while super man....be honest people went to go see that because Pacific Rim and Will Smiths movies weren't out yet.
And if you wanna go on about tights, just look at wolverines reaction when they showed him that ridiculous blue and yellow suit. Pretty sure he'd pick jeans and a T-shirt any day. So if Stan Lee has enough brass to think its corny and he's one of the biggest proliferators of the genre, I'm pretty sure its corny. Its like wearing Bell bottoms and 6 inch fish bowl platform shoes in 2013....how practical is that.....really. One of the heroes from the incredibles died from hanging himself on his cape.....safety hazard.
Its just not practical for that to be the go to standard. Its cool that its there, its cool that it exists, but, not offering the other options out there for creating a hero just limits you to falling back on your IP or title or franchise being the biggest pull you have.
Its the reason why Star Trek, our own developers game has such a huge following, its the reason Marvel had the opening numbers it did, (even though theres spider man fans out there who wont even give it a chance because wtf is the point of playing a game with spider man if you can't shot web off of buildings and swing around the sky and generally be spider man....).
DC online is doing the same thing, but they realized early that in order to push that game they'd have to offer something other than "be batman" If I wanted to be batman I'd play the PC game completely devoted to "being batman". By offering the choices they have that are, (pretty much a rip off in similarity to the options in champs and city of heroes.) By offering those choices they're able to pull in people who don't just like golden age heroes. Thus making it an mmo, instead of a game that people play to look like that other guy with the cape, but wear pink instead of blue and red.
I know its rediculous from a true comic die hard genre stand point, but realistically.....walk out to the middle of millinium city and try to count the amount of golden age heroes.....now count the amount of GI Joe looking, Robotic, Alien Cat Girl mofos. Don't take my word for it. Speaks for itself.
Now if you were to take away the option to be that GI joe looking cobra command/dinosaur/aliens vs predator/catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime/Droid looking characters, and say, ok you can only look like "this". This game would have died last year if not sooner.
Like I said people didn't leave after opening because they only wanted to be golden age, because that option was available. People left because of the same reasons we ***** on the forums to this day. Content. Balance. PVP. And money.
Awesome. Usually more wordy. Not this time. Awesome.
Not making up numbers here, and the reason we don't have the same population here as we did from launch is a completely different reason than thematics.
Theres a reason why artists like Todd Mcfarlane and other non traditional super/hero/antihero/comic creators sell as much as they do, because people get tired of the same hello kitty happy go lucky tight spandex cape thing thats been repeated for the past 40 to 50 years. The following was small back then, and is still small now. Don't believe me? Check a Barnes and noble for a spandex comic section. Then compare the amount of content they have there to the amount of Vampire/post apocalyptic/zombie horror themed stuff that isn't even a comic. (Does it mean readers in general are more dark and edgy loving than before, should we be afraid? Probably.)
To be fair, McFarlane's not a great example. He ended up being a one-trick pony, and his best work was a series of 'action figures' that didn't do anything except sit on a shelf in one pose. Not to mention, he simply recycled artwork and just drew a different costume on characters to pass it off.
His designs weren't bad- you could put Spawn and several of his other characters alongside Marvel or DC characters and they'd fit just fine. Spawn was originally designed as a traditional cosmic-power superhero, McFarlane just changed his origin. And then absolutely wrecked the story later.
There are only so many heroes who have pulled off that direction and made it last for years long enough to still stay relavent to 12 year olds. The rest....well....Iron man had one one of the biggest grossing films this year, while super man....be honest people went to go see that because Pacific Rim and Will Smiths movies weren't out yet.
And if you wanna go on about tights, just look at wolverines reaction when they showed him that ridiculous blue and yellow suit. Pretty sure he'd pick jeans and a T-shirt any day. So if Stan Lee has enough brass to think its corny and he's one of the biggest proliferators of the genre, I'm pretty sure its corny. Its like wearing Bell bottoms and 6 inch fish bowl platform shoes in 2013....how practical is that.....really. One of the heroes from the incredibles died from hanging himself on his cape.....safety hazard.
I think the idea is that the best 'theme' would be modern day heroic age. A lot of heroes still have a traditional look, just updated. After all, Superman's costume hasn't changed much. Batman's has become more detailed over the years. They still look awesome in the same comic book, because there's a similar style.
Its just not practical for that to be the go to standard. Its cool that its there, its cool that it exists, but, not offering the other options out there for creating a hero just limits you to falling back on your IP or title or franchise being the biggest pull you have.
In truth, Champions has to deliver on this because it's tauted to advertised as 'be the hero you want to be'. If it were restricted in some way- perhaps by its lore, then there would be less random insanity that doesn't merge with what most people see as comics. That's where it sort of shoots itself in the foot. You may have to forgive this mini-rant on Champions' lore.
I read the primer, and it isn't poorly written. It's just not to my liking. Judging from what you say here, you probably wouldn't like it. I find it to be a little too campy while it's pretending to be serious. There's some pretty neat ideas in it, but over all I'm not a fan.
Now, the problem CO has? It took that campy stuff and ran wild with it. However, instead of pretending to be serious- it tries to pretend it's funny. Which makes it come off as sad. I almost feel embarrassed for whoever wrote this in and the guy who approved it. It takes the worst camp and builds on it while disregarding [Mechanon] or butchering [Multifaria] the interesting parts.
So, in a nutshell it gives you ultimate freedom to create whatever you want. But it's a moot point, really. It's like getting the coolest action figure... but as a playset you have to use your sister's Fisher-Price My First Dollhouse and pretend it's a badass base or something.
Reason for that rant? If you have a better setting, you can limit down the tastes that you would try to appeal to. Why? If you made a fantasy MMORPG set in the Game of Thrones universe, you wouldn't have people demanding to be Orcs, Samurai, Demons, etc. You could focus on making the best possible stuff for Game of Thrones type characters.
I know its rediculous from a true comic die hard genre stand point, but realistically.....walk out to the middle of millinium city and try to count the amount of golden age heroes.....now count the amount of GI Joe looking, Robotic, Alien Cat Girl mofos. Don't take my word for it. Speaks for itself.
Now if you were to take away the option to be that GI joe looking cobra command/dinosaur/aliens vs predator/catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime/Droid looking characters, and say, ok you can only look like "this". This game would have died last year if not sooner.
Maybe. Or, we'd have more focus on what people wanted that were interested in a super hero game. I'll be the first to say it: I don't have the slightest idea why we need 3 fantasy armor sets, 2 variations of demonic armor/parts, and a few others. Yes, there may be some characters in modern age comic books that use these things- but I kind of think it was not the best idea for a mass number of people expecting a super hero game. I'm not certain the demand was for stuff you can get in a fantasy MMORPG.
I guess what I'm saying again is like, if you made a game set in the GI Joe universe, I could see people asking for civilian clothes costume packs. I can see them asking for ninja costume packs. I could even see them asking for historical military uniforms. But if you came in there asking for Dark Demon Armor Spike Killsuit, you'd probably be blown off considering how it doesn't fit- and you were never given the impression that you could be something like that from the start.
There are plenty of ways to restrict a superhero setting to a more normal, modern-era theme to keep down the demand for random cosmetics that only appeal to a small number of people.
"Now, the problem CO has? It took that campy stuff and ran wild with it. However, instead of pretending to be serious- it tries to pretend it's funny. Which makes it come off as sad. I almost feel embarrassed for whoever wrote this in and the guy who approved it. It takes the worst camp and builds on it while disregarding [Mechanon] or butchering [Multifaria] the interesting parts"
Point of order:
In a general sense you're right. CO has a reputation for being too "campy". However, most content post launch has been more serious than camp. I think sometimes people get defensive and say "hey the game is just quirky and the writers were having fun!" without realizing what in hades they are talking about.
I love nemcon. Well in theory.
When people hear that Shadow Destroyers speech "alpha-omega blah blah derp" in Nemcon is the speech Skeletor gives in "HeMan:Master of The universe (spelling?)"" it goes like this-
"Nuhh uh! They'd get sued!"
"Liar you made that up because you hate the game! Also Can Ihaz globals for a retcon?"
"I've seen that movie, that didn't happen!"
(After shown proof)-" "All bad guys talk in these terms! It's a commentary on the Mobius strip that exemplifies good and evil and........"
Champions Online isn't as goofy as everyone says it is. Yes it has super cringeworthy nonsense like Foxbat and the Sapphire concert. But to a certain degree it's us who overplay the goofiness when trying to get rid of it.
Not making up numbers here, and the reason we don't have the same population here as we did from launch is a completely different reason than thematics.
No, you literally made up numbers to support your idea about theme:
honestly if champions was degraded to only having one world, and one lump sum of tight wearing, or cowboys, or robots.....yeah you'd have about 50 people online right now tops....maybe 60....
Theres a reason why artists like Todd Mcfarlane and other non traditional super/hero/antihero/comic creators sell as much as they do, because people get tired of the same hello kitty happy go lucky tight spandex cape thing thats been repeated for the past 40 to 50 years. The following was small back then, and is still small now. Don't believe me? Check a Barnes and noble for a spandex comic section. Then compare the amount of content they have there to the amount of Vampire/post apocalyptic/zombie horror themed stuff that isn't even a comic. (Does it mean readers in general are more dark and edgy loving than before, should we be afraid? Probably.)
So you're saying that Champions, a game based on Western comic books, should incorporate anything that's popular in literature? Sparkly vampire stories and anything zombie, yay, I'm out.
I'd like a citation for the superhero genre "following" being "small" 40-50 years ago. And what are we comparing to? It's quite a nebulous statement.
There are only so many heroes who have pulled off that direction and made it last for years long enough to still stay relavent to 12 year olds. The rest....well....Iron man had one one of the biggest grossing films this year, while super man....be honest people went to go see that because Pacific Rim and Will Smiths movies weren't out yet.
Ah, so now classic-style heroes are only for 12 year olds. Pardon me for being such a child. Insults: The best way to gain footing in a discussion.
And what's your excuse for Avengers? That movie made more money than any other movie (or whatever) because people were bored and the right movies weren't out yet Or was it little kids forcing their parents to go watch the movie?
And if you wanna go on about tights, just look at wolverines reaction when they showed him that ridiculous blue and yellow suit. Pretty sure he'd pick jeans and a T-shirt any day. So if Stan Lee has enough brass to think its corny and he's one of the biggest proliferators of the genre, I'm pretty sure its corny.
Wolverine's reaction to anything is gonna be some tired-**** "I'm too good for this crap," because he's a terrible character and a terrible example.
Its like wearing Bell bottoms and 6 inch fish bowl platform shoes in 2013....how practical is that.....really. One of the heroes from the incredibles died from hanging himself on his cape.....safety hazard.
So you're saying superheroes that wear tights are not popular nowadays. Okay. Do you happen to read any comic books at all that you don't have to start at the back cover and end up in the front, by chance? Honest question, here.
Its just not practical for that to be the go to standard. Its cool that its there, its cool that it exists, but, not offering the other options out there for creating a hero just limits you to falling back on your IP or title or franchise being the biggest pull you have.
Limits you? It's not a limit, it's preventing you from becoming a genreless-whatever. Do you go out and say that zombie movies/books/whatever are limiting themselves by not having things like Rainbow Brite in them? I mean, it's sure to pull in a larger audience, right? My Little Pony is huge right now, let's get them together with zombies and bacon and make a game out of that, why not? Why just limit yourself to zombies? What about zombie romances? Need those. Vampire/Zombie crossbreeding for all those tweens out there. Gotta have that so you don't just have your established IP to fall back on, right? Forget respecting the IP, let's just sell out.
DC online is doing the same thing, but they realized early that in order to push that game they'd have to offer something other than "be batman" If I wanted to be batman I'd play the PC game completely devoted to "being batman". By offering the choices they have that are, (pretty much a rip off in similarity to the options in champs and city of heroes.) By offering those choices they're able to pull in people who don't just like golden age heroes. Thus making it an mmo, instead of a game that people play to look like that other guy with the cape, but wear pink instead of blue and red.
I never said anything about "just golden age heroes," did I? I'm not even a fan of the golden age, not sure why you'd zero in on that.
I know its rediculous from a true comic die hard genre stand point, but realistically.....walk out to the middle of millinium city and try to count the amount of golden age heroes.....now count the amount of GI Joe looking, Robotic, Alien Cat Girl mofos. Don't take my word for it. Speaks for itself.
Exactly. The game looks like a hodge-podge of genres that don't belong together, and it's enough to turn some people off of the game. You know, all those comic-book die-hards that can't stand anime? Those exist, you know. How do you know that by adding anything and everything to the "genre" of this game, you're not losing customers? For all we know it's an even trade-off, and the only thing that's harmed in the process is the integrity of the IP itself.
Now if you were to take away the option to be that GI joe looking cobra command/dinosaur/aliens vs predator/catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime/Droid looking characters, and say, ok you can only look like "this". This game would have died last year if not sooner.
Prove it.
Like I said people didn't leave after opening because they only wanted to be golden age, because that option was available. People left because of the same reasons we ***** on the forums to this day. Content. Balance. PVP. And money.
So being able to be a catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime didn't exactly save the game, but you seem to think that these genres being in the game is so crucial for its survival.
Interesting. So to sum up, this game would be dead if you didn't offer up a bunch of different genres, because comic books are dead, but the game is dead anyways because of other factors not directly related to genre.
I don't think you've convinced me that if this game was solely based on Western comic books, it'd be much worse off.
Champions Online isn't as goofy as everyone says it is. Yes it has super cringeworthy nonsense like Foxbat and the Sapphire concert. But to a certain degree it's us who overplay the goofiness when trying to get rid of it.
Not campy? This game is full of badly written, forced humor supported by completely missed graphic stylisation. You can't play CO ignoring stupid things like for example - VIPER attitude test. Unless you're completely not paying attention to things like flavor text and quests.
There is simply too much of it.
NPC chat is another example. Fortunately it can be turned off.
Worse, those aren't even needed. This game isn't that scary to be in any serious need for comic reliefs everywhere.
Fortunately in RP I can use CU and completely ignore as much Cryptic fallacy as I can.
DCUO isn't campy.
CoX was not campy.
CO is campfest done by people who simply don't care about the genre. Doesn't matter how many things like Nemcon or Whiteout one can add to this game. Everything old needs to be also changed.
Comic reliefs are good from time to time but CO has reversed proportions - few things in it are even remotely serious.
Of course it's impossible.
This is why CO simply needs a good successor. Another game. With more options than DCUO.
There was one bit of humor in CO well done. Old item descriptions. those are now removed, because again - nobody cared enough to copypaste it.
Which sums CO state perfectly - nobody in Cryptic cares.
Ah, so now classic-style heroes are only for 12 year olds. Pardon me for being such a child. Insults: The best way to gain footing in a discussion.
Obviously, Biff, you're very passionate about this, and I'm likely going to regret sticking my head into this, but I think you guys might actually agree on more than you think, if you'll take a step back.
Taking the quote above as an example, you may be misunderstanding what he was trying to illustrate. 12 is about how old I was when I got into comics, and moth of my sons were roughly that age, as well. (My younger son is 11, and his tastes are just now evolving from Ponies to XMen.) What I read in his statement was an analogy for "the next generation," but that may be colored by my own experiences with comics.
Also, to the follow-on poster who said that CoH was not campy, but CO was, because it was created by people who care nothing about comics, that's a gross distortion. Champions Online went through documented development changes, originally being conceived as Marvel Universe Online, but, more importantly, many of the original development team are the same ones who made City of Heroes. What I see is more a misguided, though honest, attempt at not repeating themselves, at least thematically.
I think the idea is that the best 'theme' would be modern day heroic age. A lot of heroes still have a traditional look, just updated. After all, Superman's costume hasn't changed much. Batman's has become more detailed over the years. They still look awesome in the same comic book, because there's a similar style.
Well-said, the entire post.
Personally, if I were to make a game based on comic books, it would embrace all of the comic book "ages," even the ones I don't particularly love. But it would at least stay in a defined genre.
"Now, the problem CO has? It took that campy stuff and ran wild with it. However, instead of pretending to be serious- it tries to pretend it's funny.
...
Champions Online isn't as goofy as everyone says it is. Yes it has super cringeworthy nonsense like Foxbat and the Sapphire concert. But to a certain degree it's us who overplay the goofiness when trying to get rid of it.
I'm a guy who has a deep respect for comedy and not letting things take themselves too seriously, but if I hear one more PSI pun...
CO is campfest done by people who simply don't care about the genre. Doesn't matter how many things like Nemcon or Whiteout one can add to this game.
My impression of the game was that it was done by a bunch of people who were just into creating/designing/writing MMOs in general, not comic book MMOs in particular. Many aspects of the game feel like they looked at other games, regardless of genre, and said "Ooh, let's put that in, too!" It could have worked, but they stapled it on instead of kneading it in.
Obviously, Biff, you're very passionate about this, and I'm likely going to regret sticking my head into this, but I think you guys might actually agree on more than you think, if you'll take a step back.
Taking the quote above as an example, you may be misunderstanding what he was trying to illustrate. 12 is about how old I was when I got into comics, and moth of my sons were roughly that age, as well. (My younger son is 11, and his tastes are just now evolving from Ponies to XMen.) What I read in his statement was an analogy for "the next generation," but that may be colored by my own experiences with comics.
Also, to the follow-on poster who said that CoH was not campy, but CO was, because it was created by people who care nothing about comics, that's a gross distortion. Champions Online went through documented development changes, originally being conceived as Marvel Universe Online, but, more importantly, many of the original development team are the same ones who made City of Heroes. What I see is more a misguided, though honest, attempt at not repeating themselves, at least thematically.
I'm not quite sure I agree with you on this, based on his remarks:
people get tired of the same hello kitty happy go lucky tight spandex cape thing thats been repeated for the past 40 to 50 years
super man....be honest people went to go see that because Pacific Rim and Will Smiths movies weren't out yet
And if you wanna go on about tights
Its like wearing Bell bottoms and 6 inch fish bowl platform shoes in 2013....how practical is that.....really
Now if you were to take away the option to be that GI joe looking cobra command/dinosaur/aliens vs predator/catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime/Droid looking characters, and say, ok you can only look like "this". This game would have died last year if not sooner.
Not exactly holding the genre to a high regard, here.
Not campy? This game is full of badly written, forced humor supported by completely missed graphic stylisation. You can't play CO ignoring stupid things like for example - VIPER attitude test. Unless you're completely not paying attention to things like flavor text and quests.
There is simply too much of it.
NPC chat is another example. Fortunately it can be turned off.
Worse, those aren't even needed. This game isn't that scary to be in any serious need for comic reliefs everywhere.
Fortunately in RP I can use CU and completely ignore as much Cryptic fallacy as I can.
DCUO isn't campy.
CoX was not campy.
CO is campfest done by people who simply don't care about the genre. Doesn't matter how many things like Nemcon or Whiteout one can add to this game. Everything old needs to be also changed.
Comic reliefs are good from time to time but CO has reversed proportions - few things in it are even remotely serious.
Of course it's impossible.
This is why CO simply needs a good successor. Another game. With more options than DCUO.
There was one bit of humor in CO well done. Old item descriptions. those are now removed, because again - nobody cared enough to copypaste it.
Which sums CO state perfectly - nobody in Cryptic cares.
I agree with most of this, I guess I was a little vague. The point I was trying to get across was that for the most part (Foxbat and Sapphire concert being the exceptions) was that while the writing in many areas is campy, it's also derivative toot he point of taking some things from other mediums that don't have much to do with the ip and parodying it, if not directly (albeit rarely) quoting verbatim from lore outside the ip.
I hate Foxbat. The Gadroon are an embarrassment. The Sapphire concert is bar none the worst in game "event" I have ever had the distinct displeasure of experiencing. Cryptic dev team is so lazy we have orcs and a ben grimm knockoff legitimized and in game. I could go on, but really what I wasaying was this:
There is camp. And there is bad writing.
The camp is an oft used excuse to call this game lame over more websites than I wanna count, and I don't think it's fair given the majority of story content released after launch day. Some of it is fairly gritty. The bad writing I think is a more recent (again imo) development due mostly due to the lack of resources.
We went from Aftershock too:
"There are Lemurians, and they might haz Bleak harbinger, and maybe might invade while Until is Untiling in Lemuria looking for stuff." As if people would go "oh a bleak harbinger" and picture a specific enemty type rather than a broader statement of things to come.
"Fight on the moon! Aliens wanted to watch you fly tanks through rings in the sky AND NOW FIGHT!!!!!!"
Yes it's bad. Very bad. But lack of effort doesn't mean intentionally bad writing.
CO has had some good writing.
Just wanted to point that out, otherwise I agree with the majority of your sentiment.
** I deliberately avoided discussing Foxbat in detail because for me he does not exist in this gameworld for me. Or any other medium. Maybe in the ip it works, but for the life of me the way it was probably presented during rd/implementation I can't believe it made the cut.
I'm repeating myself, but I think much of this is rationalization after the fact.
I think even the most serious comic book types would play this game if it was alive. Because, heck, what else are you going to play?
This game has always been a bit goofy and incoherent. Some of us like that. Some people don't.
I like it.
What annoys me more is games of the suepr hero nature that try Tooooo hard to be serious, so serious and ironically to me they come off as one a game that is not comfortable just being it self, and two usually looks like desperate writing and forced seriousness which kills it. And three not a very relaxing game to play. Because as I see it, most hero storylines are already not very serious to begin with, especially the golden age ones. I mean how serious am I expected to take a dude with an unreal large chin, that wear underwear on the outside and wear a cape and wear an outift tighter than yoga pants? And usually use cheesy dialogue and or very cheesy lame catchphrases? Not exactly something I would take serious in mood compared to the nature of games like Doom or even Call of Duty (knowing that people actually do that stuff for real and the resulting carnage I seen personally from it in RL.).
I agree that most comic book types will play this game. One the artwork alone is comic book like, although comic books even western style comic books, are styled in various manners and use different art styles. I think western style should be plural because there isnt exactly one style, even within the same hero storyline. Through out the ages, even the style of the old stand by Superman comics changed style throughout the years and then there are various styles for the various spin off comics of Sueprman.
And I just went through an old collection of comics I had laying around all made by western companies. Some are styled like Frank Miller black white and red style. Some are straight cartoony, some are styled more traditional stereotypical, some a bit mroe edgy and some go for realism. Even the hero characters, while many of the most popular ones have similar styles sometimes called Golden Age, hero comics have various styles and costume looks. Some fall into the "fashion sin" black/red. Some wear bright colors. Some are armored. Some use large weapons, some are demi-gods, some are dead, some are normal humans, some are technical geniuses, soem are military ex-militrary or affiliated with military, some are demon styled, some are old, some are young, some take place ian dark gritty environment, some take place in a bright go lucky, Leave it to Beaver world, some dont even take place on earth, some use fire ,some use ice, some use chains, soem use hammers, some use oversized swords, some us magic while wearing Catholic girl outfit, some are pirate styled, even a few in the collection that had areligious slant, and some that were anti-religion, some maim, some kill, some simply arrest, possess others, and few were dressed as old samurai lving in a NYC styled city to bring evil doers to justice.
On thing I like about this game is freedom to create a character, and soem may not follow the rules that the creators of Batman Superman Xmen and the big dogs laid down for themselves. If that was the point then there is no point in haveing customization if the only rules in hero creation have to strictly follow what DC/Marvel says a hero is supposed to look liek and wear, then we might as well just go play games where they already have premade characters for us like Marvel. That way it ensures that the "Western style" rules that DC/Marvel created is strictly adhered to.
So if I remember correctly.. the lead writer of CO also worked on Venture Brothers.. if that is any indication of how Camp can be both mature and funny. You have to assume they saw the campiness and liked it.
I know I wish the Hero Games had more camp in them. I honestly think it'd help quell the PvP rage people feel for one another.
On thing I like about this game is freedom to create a character, and soem may not follow the rules that the creators of Batman Superman Xmen and the big dogs laid down for themselves. If that was the point then there is no point in haveing customization if the only rules in hero creation have to strictly follow what DC/Marvel says a hero is supposed to look liek and wear, then we might as well just go play games where they already have premade characters for us like Marvel. That way it ensures that the "Western style" rules that DC/Marvel created is strictly adhered to.
There are millions of ways you can create a Western comic style hero, from any of the eras, from 1930 to 2013. Saying that restricting character creation to a Western style you might as well go play a Marvel/DC game is as shortsighted as saying "Why have more than one anime if you already have DragonBall Z?" Anime characters are all the same, right? Big eyes, small mouth, wacky hair, powerful beyond human comprehension.
The point is that Cryptic blended a lot of genres into the game, that in my personal opinion, didn't need to be. As a result the game has a very weak theme.
You like this game because you can make whatever character you want. I liked this game because it was supposed to be a superhero game.
Too much to quote, but it's entirely possible to do this:
A superhero setting that doesn't come off like a parody saturday morning cartoon, and a superhero setting that isn't so serious it's like playing Watchmen Online. This is what comics are doing this very day.
That is kind of exactly what CoX did, and I have heard nothing but great things about the writing. To be fair, if I could: I would honestly love to see Champions' character creator and freeform system transplanted into a newer version of CoX.
Sadly, Champions Online's awful writing gets what I call the 'Tarantino Justification' from too many people. It's the justification people use that in a nutshell says 'if it's bad on purpose, it's not bad'. No, it's still bad most of the time. It has no appeal to anyone who isn't in on the joke (Sort of like Tarantino's Grindhouse movie) so to anyone else- it looks dumb. It's like Dane Cook's bad comedy that revolves around him making references from the 80's, but once you take away that the guy just comes off like a kid with ADHD trying desperately to be accepted.
The point is that Cryptic blended a lot of genres into the game, that in my personal opinion, didn't need to be. As a result the game has a very weak theme.
It was mentioned earlier about the lack of player cohesion. Compared to CoX, CO's playerbase is nowhere near as close. Most of this is because as I've seen, it looks like 'Anime Gigglefest Ninja-time Go!' Online, or 'Satan's Little Helper' Online, or 'Fetish Fighter' Online.
This creates more division- especially when there's the above extreme... and a plethora of players who play actual superheroes, and somehow look glaringly down their nose at anything that isn't a Silver Age Superhero. Even characters that you can totally imagine in a comic get snubbed by these players, because they've been shoved into a corner and surrounded by things that don't fit the setting and told they HAVE to accept it. In what these players thought was going to be their world.
Truth be told, you come in like me, you see both sides and you're disgusted.
You like this game because you can make whatever character you want. I liked this game because it was supposed to be a superhero game.
And this is the point. Super hero characters to have a lot of room to be diverse and different. But when I see Yoshikosha Kakawashi The samurai foxgirl in a schoolgirl outfit and Lord Evilbutt McMurderfart the Unholy and Generally Impolite fifty feet tall in full plate metal with blades and spikes and flames everywhere, I can't help but look at the setting and then at Cryptic and say 'Why?'
So yeah, it's 'cool' that you can make whatever you want. But when you log into a superhero game and the only 'Superhero' you meet is a jerk that eyerolls you and talks down to you because you're playing a cyborg in red and black and not wearing tights like a 'real' hero...
It really doesn't feel like a superhero game. More like a fashion contest for the deranged. And it takes a lot to make you want to stay.
So the point you're trying to get across is that you hate Quentin Tarantino and Dane Cook, yes?
The word 'hate' is a strong word. I dislike when people claim that the former is a genius because he straight up steals themes and even entire movies [City on Fire] and tries to pawn them off as being some kind of masterpiece after he's dragged out everything that made them bad on purpose. The latter more because he's obnoxious and unfunny once you realize he's just making these reference so your clap your hands and laugh like a loon because you remember Optimus Prime.
Biff- do me a favor and take a look at the first post on the 8th page of this thread.
Of note, another thing that bugs me is how games like DC Universe- despite the limitations they've placed on certain things (No body sliders, very few actual customizable/changeable parts, and no costumes worth buying without grinding Raids or doing PvP), the game looks like it's full of super heroes. There are some very dark mystical and hi-tech costume pieces, and very few high-fantasy elements and no anime/manga themes. Not to mention the trailer cinematic shows all the heroes in pretty awesome variants of their costumes.
Even watching the trailers for the games DCUO and Injustice: Gods Among Us makes me question why Champions Online keeps missing the mark. You can have superheroes that look both traditional and those that look like badasses alongside one another- and even merge them.
A superhero setting that doesn't come off like a parody saturday morning cartoon, and a superhero setting that isn't so serious it's like playing Watchmen Online. This is what comics are doing this very day.
That is kind of exactly what CoX did, and I have heard nothing but great things about the writing. To be fair, if I could: I would honestly love to see Champions' character creator and freeform system transplanted into a newer version of CoX.
Though I could get with this, though I don't really remember any time at all where City showed it had a sense of humor. Not saying it didn't, I just don't remember it. I think superhero games could use some humor, but not to the effect of them damn PSI puns!
It was mentioned earlier about the lack of player cohesion. Compared to CoX, CO's playerbase is nowhere near as close. Most of this is because as I've seen, it looks like 'Anime Gigglefest Ninja-time Go!' Online, or 'Satan's Little Helper' Online, or 'Fetish Fighter' Online.
One point for and one against. When I played City, there were plenty of monster people and anyone that had been around for more than a year had wings (exaggeration but whatever).
However, when City did shut down, I did start seeing a lot more classic looking heroes around Millennium City. I always take screenshots of nice tights costumes that I happen to see out in the wild, and needless to say, screenshots were few and far between before. Nowadays I take them more frequently, which is a pleasant surprise.
This creates more division- especially when there's the above extreme... and a plethora of players who play actual superheroes, and somehow look glaringly down their nose at anything that isn't a Silver Age Superhero. Even characters that you can totally imagine in a comic get snubbed by these players, because they've been shoved into a corner and surrounded by things that don't fit the setting and told they HAVE to accept it. In what these players thought was going to be their world.
Truth be told, you come in like me, you see both sides and you're disgusted.
If there's a silver-age-elitist group in Champions, I honestly haven't met them. (Seriously, where do I sign up? ) Hell, pretty much every costume contest I've ever been to, the tights guys don't win. Anyway, while I greatly prefer classic costumes, I've never gone down someone's throat to tell them their costume sucks or shouldn't be in the game. While there is a personal comfort level that lots of players are outside of, I'm not gonna tell them how to play or make a costume.
And this is the point. Super hero characters to have a lot of room to be diverse and different. But when I see Yoshikosha Kakawashi The samurai foxgirl in a schoolgirl outfit and Lord Evilbutt McMurderfart the Unholy and Generally Impolite fifty feet tall in full plate metal with blades and spikes and flames everywhere, I can't help but look at the setting and then at Cryptic and say 'Why?'
So yeah, it's 'cool' that you can make whatever you want. But when you log into a superhero game and the only 'Superhero' you meet is a jerk that eyerolls you and talks down to you because you're playing a cyborg in red and black and not wearing tights like a 'real' hero...
It really doesn't feel like a superhero game. More like a fashion contest for the deranged. And it takes a lot to make you want to stay.
Though I could get with this, though I don't really remember any time at all where City showed it had a sense of humor. Not saying it didn't, I just don't remember it. I think superhero games could use some humor, but not to the effect of them damn PSI puns!
One point for and one against. When I played City, there were plenty of monster people and anyone that had been around for more than a year had wings (exaggeration but whatever).
However, when City did shut down, I did start seeing a lot more classic looking heroes around Millennium City. I always take screenshots of nice tights costumes that I happen to see out in the wild, and needless to say, screenshots were few and far between before. Nowadays I take them more frequently, which is a pleasant surprise.
Right, and when you logged in to CoX you knew you were playing a superhero game. People embraced the idea of comic book superheroes because the game had a setting that made you respect it. Not a series of armpit noises and themes that almost seem to mock the superhero theme more than praise it.
If there's a silver-age-elitist group in Champions, I honestly haven't met them. (Seriously, where do I sign up? ) Hell, pretty much every costume contest I've ever been to, the tights guys don't win. Anyway, while I greatly prefer classic costumes, I've never gone down someone's throat to tell them their costume sucks or shouldn't be in the game. While there is a personal comfort level that lots of players are outside of, I'm not gonna tell them how to play or make a costume.
But really, get some tights. :biggrin:
Nah, the exoskeleton is cooler. I'll eventually replace Cyborg on the Justice Leage, because blue is for nerds.
Personally... eh. It's a wash to me. There are some things that were more developed in CoH, but also more overwrought and ham-handed. There are some things that are silly in CO, but also more coherent and thematic.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Too much to quote, but it's entirely possible to do this:
A superhero setting that doesn't come off like a parody saturday morning cartoon, and a superhero setting that isn't so serious it's like playing Watchmen Online. This is what comics are doing this very day.
That is kind of exactly what CoX did, and I have heard nothing but great things about the writing. To be fair, if I could: I would honestly love to see Champions' character creator and freeform system transplanted into a newer version of CoX.
Sadly, Champions Online's awful writing gets what I call the 'Tarantino Justification' from too many people. It's the justification people use that in a nutshell says 'if it's bad on purpose, it's not bad'. No, it's still bad most of the time. It has no appeal to anyone who isn't in on the joke (Sort of like Tarantino's Grindhouse movie) so to anyone else- it looks dumb. It's like Dane Cook's bad comedy that revolves around him making references from the 80's, but once you take away that the guy just comes off like a kid with ADHD trying desperately to be accepted.
It was mentioned earlier about the lack of player cohesion. Compared to CoX, CO's playerbase is nowhere near as close. Most of this is because as I've seen, it looks like 'Anime Gigglefest Ninja-time Go!' Online, or 'Satan's Little Helper' Online, or 'Fetish Fighter' Online.
This creates more division- especially when there's the above extreme... and a plethora of players who play actual superheroes, and somehow look glaringly down their nose at anything that isn't a Silver Age Superhero. Even characters that you can totally imagine in a comic get snubbed by these players, because they've been shoved into a corner and surrounded by things that don't fit the setting and told they HAVE to accept it. In what these players thought was going to be their world.
Truth be told, you come in like me, you see both sides and you're disgusted.
And this is the point. Super hero characters to have a lot of room to be diverse and different. But when I see Yoshikosha Kakawashi The samurai foxgirl in a schoolgirl outfit and Lord Evilbutt McMurderfart the Unholy and Generally Impolite fifty feet tall in full plate metal with blades and spikes and flames everywhere, I can't help but look at the setting and then at Cryptic and say 'Why?'
So yeah, it's 'cool' that you can make whatever you want. But when you log into a superhero game and the only 'Superhero' you meet is a jerk that eyerolls you and talks down to you because you're playing a cyborg in red and black and not wearing tights like a 'real' hero...
It really doesn't feel like a superhero game. More like a fashion contest for the deranged. And it takes a lot to make you want to stay.
I know one thing that could solve all of this, including the mcbutts and the catgirlmarais.
One word, that CO doesn't have and I think is the only real reason theres no true cohesion.
Villains
Villains, thats it. Villains have existed in comic book and manga lore (manga is the japanese word for comic, anime being the animated form of the comic...there really is no difference east vs west except in how we draw faces and costumes. The stories are just as ridiculous on both sides.)
Villains have no rule set, they have no standard except, "go after the good guys".
Villains can do anything, say anything, wear anything, and be featured in any setting doing the above.
Once you allow the player to be the villain all of the rules change, and usully in favor of the villain. By giving the hero a reason to exist and adding general mayhem to a world like champions which pretty much falls under saturday morning cartoon campy.
It worked for CoX, and I loved being a villain. I think it would help set purpose to those genres that show up in Champs that make you go wtf. Because in champs....we're all forced to be good guys, and that kinda sucks.
And this is a perfect way to make Slashy McMurderfart blend in. Guy logs in, sees the setting- Boom. He can do all that and feel like her belongs there.
Guys who play more serious hero characters feel more awesome when Slashy McMurderfart is tearing up the block.
EDIT:
Also, hear me out: When I was plotting up what I thought would make an awesome Science Fiction game, there was no 'good' or 'evil', more based on what faction you believed in.
Comments
I also don't mind you having your opinion - that's fine, as long as it's an informed opinion (I am of the firm belief that you are not, infact, entitled to your opinion - you are, instead, entitled to your informed opinion. Ignorance is entitled to no one). We don't have to agree on the subject to get along (and infact, it appears we don't; That's fine, I took that into heavy consideration in my previous critiques to try and be respectful to those desires).
I am, however, finding the way you are expressing that opinion to be rude, unnecessarily aggressive, and insulting. That, I am not cool with. I'm all for talking about things you don't like, but if you can't do it in a mature fashion then maybe you need to take a moment to chill out until you can. You're doing yourselves no favors, and more importantly, wasting everyone's time.
Ease up a bit, man.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
And you're correct- I want this back on track. Some primo editing is required, and we were doing well when we had things discussed to the point where there was a reason 'why' things were limited in scope, not to mention the idea ealier about the tailoring and customizing of powers that Biff brought up- which would actually be pretty awesome.
Most of what you're saying, I -do- agree with. Hence the request for feedback (did look into game mechanics, especially when it was about animal heads and such, because I was going to do something about multiple limbs), and it got somewhere.
However, as far as informed opinions goes- I don't need detailed information on kimchee to have the opinion that it stinks and I dislike it. You -are- allowed to have an opinion based on what you like based on something as simple as initial impressions and face value, if that's how you choose to live.
Actually, I could very well be. I'll admit fault when I say I tend to lash out when someone makes a comparison to a dislike of fandom to Nazism, and actually spending part of my childhood with someone who's been in a concentration camp really, really opened my eyes- and that's not something I take lightly. I still very legitimately believe it's beyond disrespectful to label someone a 'Nazi' because they don't like what you like, or even hate what you don't like- it's not only disrespectful, but self-absorbed and disturbing to make such a comparison.
Compared to that, I believe, calling someone a 'pervert' for liking something and not wanting certain elements of a subculture in your game is mild. There are things I like that I am certain plenty of people hate, and are quite vocal about it. I just notice a trend between a couple of these interests- there are a select few that are treated like they are more than what they are, and the general reaction to them is the same as if it were legitimate hate speech.
I've taken the time to clean up a bunch of this thread when it went off the rails. Let's get it back on track, and if anyone's going to discuss the pros and cons of different themes within games, let's do so in a civil manner. I don't want to have to start forwarding names to Turtle.
That's not really what I'm suggesting at all. For example, I don't like kimchee either. However, I tend to express my dislike in more respectful fashions. Mostly, because I stop and think about why I don't like it. It's generally overspiced and it's overall presentation isn't something I'm fond of. Because I have an informed opinion of the matter, I'm better able to communicate that displeasure effectively and without being rude about it. That's the key point I'm trying to make here, overall. To sum it up simply - work on how you're saying things, you're coming off aggressive and that's causing people to respond in kind.
Think about what you're doing for a minute. You're flipping the proverbial table at someone for doing exactly what you're doing. Stow that hypocritical junk and actually think about what you're doing and how it's perceived.
I'm not saying you should be okay with someone making a gross exaggeration (they did, we both know it, let's stop bringing up the obvious). I am, however, saying it's stupid to do the exact same thing and treat it like it's okay. It's not, at least not anywhere that's not an elementary school playground. Just because someone else is being a prat doesn't give you a free pass to do the exact same thing, and avoid being called out on it.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Then you might want to hit the last couple of posts? Didn't know you were working on it.
Also, I'll politely say this- even though I like the guy, the fact that this post:
Doesn't get the same look-over and consideration as the other generalized statements is cause for concern, considering that it's roughly the same thing- and could come off as insulting as well (it did at first, and then I was like "wait, that's Nextnametaken, that's how he trolls- I mean rolls and I like that guy."). However, I'm not offended- especially since he did drop some decent reading, I was able to roll with the joke and work with it.
As I was saying- and actually, Biff, you brought up a really good point.
I would probably think it'd work way better to scratch the specific Genome idea. I like the idea of, in a nutshell, having a list of powers and simply tailoring your own cosmetic effects.
As far as the not-wanted themes go, I made the point earlier about animal-type heads being absolute heaps of disappointment in CO. With an animal head, you'd nearly need an entirely new set of head and face accessories to make it balanced across the board- and I do dislike the idea of having certain things like costumes not work for certain groups- but I am also aware of the fact that for nearly each and every type of animal head, you'd have to create its own specific part for the individual.
Not to mention, I'd like to have some degree of facial customization and such- and you'd be looking at an entirely new set of sliders and... yeah. CO's animal heads are the perfect example- there's nothing you can do with it, just take it as it is. I'd rather not have something at all, than to have a botched version of it, but that's just me.
That's all.
I have to ask you not to post that, maybe give it an edit. Some people will look through that and realize how sweet and accepting I am in comparison. It's... not kind.
Me? I think it's hilarious. But I don't mention it here for a reason.
I've kind of felt that about you since your first posts in this thread.
That's fine. I make an effort to be blunt and direct, and not everyone takes that very well. I also generally don't feel the need to pull punches or sugar-coat when I critique someone with the intent of helping.
Do you have anything more topic-relevant, though? Because that's not really adding anything to the discussion or relates a whole lot to the OP, either, and we've been kind of trying to stay focused here (or that's what I keep throwing words at supporting, at any rate).
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
There's a difference between being direct with feedback and being rude. Let's criticize the ideas, not the people. Thanks!
This is a really big, important thing that if you're designing something, you should dedicate time to thinking about. The biggest part of that is understanding what the theme is, and how you want to define it. If we assume our overarching theme is 'Comic Books', we quickly come to the idea that if we research this it starts to feel like there's not a lot of cohesion at all depending on how wide or narrow our band is. There's a good reason for that, though.
Most of the research we can do here runs into some various obvious problems - for one, comic books in general span a very long period of time, with human culture changing and mutating around them. There's also multiple different companies that try to have their own style and thematics, that further break things down. If we're going to maintain cohesion (and thus have it look and feel less slapdash and random), it's probably wise to narrow our band down. This helps establish a target to aim at, and thus makes it easier for designers (art, environment, content) to make things that support our overall goal with the theme itself.
Other things you need to think about here - your target audience. When defining your theme, you need to be aware of what kind of audience you're wanting to reach with that theme. This is where market research and the like really comes in handy, as most of the time that can tell you what people in your target audience like. Then you can decide how to appease those people within your theme, or get an idea of why you wouldn't want to do that. Your goal should be to reach as wide an audience as possible, while maintaining as cohesive a theme as possible.
CO is a good example of a game that's probably tried to diversify a bit too much, and as a result has a very clear and distinct lack of theme cohesion. There's some attempt at making it fit a certain accepted visual style, but it still creates situations and things that look wildly out of place. If we're willing to break away from comics, we can also find things that generally have a more tighter band on theme - Guild Wars 1, for example, did a very good job of maintaining a visually distinct and cohesive theme. There was a lot of cultural barriers, but on top of narratively justifying them (different isolated continents do tend to have vastly different styles of architecture and the like), they still managed to make everything look like one, cohesive world.
Superhero games are probably the hardest settings to maintain cohesiveness, because so few people knuckle down as hard on just how far away from the 'core' theme it's acceptable to go with things like costumes, powers, and the like. City-Of did an admirable job, but they ultimately fell short (especially towards the tail end) in maintaining a strictly cohesive theme (also of note - they had a technical and story design 'bible' that they stuck to throughout the game's lifetime, which is a very good plan). DCUO makes an attempt at it visually, and while they do make some significant strides there the overall cohesion breaks down a bit (nevermind that a lot of it is enforced by just not giving too many options in the first place). CO probably has the biggest problem with it, but even that isn't a huge problem in and of itself (though it's a semi-common complaint against the game).
Repeating previous sentiments - look at what, how, and why other people have done things when designing. Use that to help you shape your ideas, but beware of survivorship bias - don't just look at what they do well, look at what they don't. Don't just look at 'successful' games, either. Look at all the ones that don't do as well (or outright fail), and find out why. Then try to avoid falling into the exact same pitfalls.
Design is serious business, treat it that way.
[SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
This is actually pretty crucial in what I've seen. I've been reading up and looking for stats on how certain MMORPG's are faring right now, and trying to find a correlation. Granted, I'm not too far into it... but I'm looking to see if what a company did has some affect on the game's success or failure.
Being said, the thing I don't want to do is what seems like occurs too often: "WoW is successful, so it should be fantasy!"
I also think that 'gap' in the genres needs to be filled, and originally? I wanted science fiction.
Well, not to be a rain on peoples parades but......
honestly if champions was degraded to only having one world, and one lump sum of tight wearing, or cowboys, or robots.....yeah you'd have about 50 people online right now tops....maybe 60....
The thing about the super hero games that have come out and been successful thus far, not including marvel universe because well.....it hasn't aged enough to determine.
The formula for keeping people interest, no matter if its champs, DC online, or city of heroes is, "We're not forcing you into being the hero we want you to be."
I mean if you wanted to be the hero the franchise wanted you to be you'd be playing a different game and genre all together.
If you want to live in a world full of old western stereotypes, or chinese warlords, there are games specifically devoted to that, because those ideas have a huge following.
With super heroes though, the super hero idea and franchise by itself has a HUGE following, but along with that following comes an even bigger SPLIT.
People that are into the spawn universe may not be into the wolverine/spiderman universe. People that are into the Japanese archtypical heroes/universes may not be into the steam punk old west type universes.
Game worlds....if I could separate them into their core followings.
China-Journey to the west, the three kingdoms, its been retold, resold, redone a million times, and it works because, people love kung fu. And asian wars.
Urban Warfare- You got a city, you got guns, you got targets, doesn't matter what it is you have shooting a thing, or what the city looks like or what kind of guns you're using....guns...guns....thats all that needs to be said....guns.
Medieval- The legend of Rohan, the battle of the humans vs the monsters blah blah castles sword and armor and shiz. Self explanatory you have played these games, huge following is huge.
Robo Tech- Anything with electrodes in it, microchips, giant robots, space ships, floating things blah blah, you know what I'm talking about this sells itself, self explanitory. Huge following.
Zombies/post apocolyptica- People love these worlds, survival combat, vampires, all that wierd **** you see on sci fi crap B movies goes here, huge following.
Now, with super heroes- The problem with super hero games being of a single form, is the same reason anime games have to fall back on a famous title rather than a form, and even then, you won't ever see dragon ball Z online come to the states because even though it has a big following, its not gonna get every anime geek to cross over. Anime games, and super hero esque games have 2 choices, you either fall back and create a world based around the most successful comic/story out there, or you let your players emmerse themselves in a player driven world full of their own ideas.
Because anime and super heroes can easily fall into zombie, robo, midieval, urban warfare, and china, plus a bunch of other top genres, all of their game audiences from an advertisement level have to be either specialized or you just say miff it, and keep a small following and let the other titles that focus fully on zombie robo castles stay ahead of your numbers.
The anime world and games out there have yet to make a solid unified anime game style experience that lets you eat at a buffet instead of a small **** backyard restaurant.
Champions is different, and has the potential to be even bigger than what it already is.
Both super heroes and Anime whatevers won't be successful unless they give that player choice. And I know marvels game is out there, and even though its a huge franchise and name....yeah star wars was a big name too, look how far that **** went.
By giving Anime fans and super hero fans a piece of paper basically and saying, hey, be what you want, and interact in a world that features places where your super heroes and anime thingys have been. You create a net that can pull in any fan of any super hero genre, and any fan of any anime genre. Thus creating a full following of people that "are into super heroes" or people that "Are into anime".
Until you can unify those anime and super hero heads which are split into like 50 different categories by themselves under one roof, you wont see as big as a following as you get from the standard midieval china modern warfare zombie games.
And I know this was probably a ***** to read. My apologies.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
If Champions went full-on Western comic books theme ranging from the golden age to the modern age, you'd have hundreds of thousands of people on right now.
I can make up numbers too, doesn't make them right.
Honestly, if I found another game that had Champions' character creator (both costume and character-building) and it stuck strictly to an actual comic book superhero theme, I'd jump ship from here in a second.
If some new director of development got it in his head that the next zone was going to be superneomegatokyo and introduced mechs and new anime-inspired powersets, I'd jump ship from here in a second. That's just not my bag, and not what I was expecting when I bought the game.
You don't know that there's not people out there who dislike this game because it has no creative direction. You don't know who left the game or won't even try it for whatever reason. You can't say "Champions without anime would be a disaster," unless you have the ability to look into an alternate future where this game has a solid, thematic foundation.
Behemoth, obviously. You should see him tank that court room!
I honestly thought that was pretty much what we had at launch, and for a while after.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Game launched with lots of mech looking pieces. Too much medieval stuff. Too much armor and junk. Demonic stuff, spikes, wings, all sorts of stuff that aren't the "mainstream" parts of normal heroes. And we had anime hairstyles from the get-go.
At least that's how I remember it, the game catering to lots of genres right off the bat.
I do not see any way to avoid the crazy seemingly mishmashed characters that make no sense except that their powers happen to be the most optimal for PvP.
Otherwise, most of the other changes I would make would be aesthetic or setting related, such as ensuring that every building is accessible in city zones, even if that means there's a grocery store social hub somewhere in the city.
I would definitely try for more variety in mission settings. We've all griped about the sheer amount of sewers, caves, and warehouses in this game, but it doesn't bother us much beyond the initial annoyance.
Nightclubs, hotel rooms, and so much more could be used. The only issue is a high chance of creating an instance and objects that could only be used in that instance, increasing the memory the game takes up for little benefit beyond variety.
But that is a big benefit.
I also would probably make it so that players learn to read the quest text more. But to be honest, I would probably try to scrap the age old quest system we know for something a bit more dynamic.
Lastly, I would try to implement a system where heroic characters can fight against villainious characters, both in PvE and PvP, via the effects of generated quests and fighting instances, the effect of which is displayed by NPCs and difficulty of the relevant areas.
For example, if the heroes are winning, then the villains of the city have to retreat to more secluded areas or even have to hide in inaccessible instances the heroes cannot access. But if the villains are winning, the city becomes more oppressive and dark, with citizens attacking heroes verbally for making things terrible by turning it into a turf war.
If it gets bad enough, the heroes end up becoming a hidden pocket resistance under an iron fist.
Also to this, I would add that there would be minimal instances or shards if possible. One problem Champions has in my opinion is that beyond social areas and respawn points, the city can feel a bit empty, and you do feel a bit alone if you're playing on your own, unless you're lucky enough to spot someone else doing stuff near you. So, by dumping everyone into one world, or by locking characters to certain shards, then the world will feel more full, perhaps.
I like it, I like it a lot. Rather than have the mishmashed powers that lack theme (which is actually, for some reason what bugs me the most)- It'd be a lot more... simple to have those powers as [Rate/Damage Type/Range/Target]. Easily one man's 'Two-gun Mojo' could be the next guy's 'Throw knives everywhere' attack or something. Change some things around and you're basically giving the player a developer's tool. This could go for each and every power.
A streamlined genome system could still be used- but more so to help someone create an archetype without having to get too far into the guts of the system.
I like this, and I'd love to see bigger worlds. It's these little things that make the difference, and on the first 'whoa!' impression, you get hooked.
That's why I want a story system- I like the idea of having a personal story, something that brings me into it- not the same-old fight 'n fetch that you'd give any random schmuck that walked up.
Both of these are fantastic ideas, especially the dynamic world. I'd never thought of that. Anything to make it more of a living world would be much more awesome.
I'm just not responding to anything else by certain posters any more.
It was either compared to the Ultimate Spiderman game or superhero movies (or even actual comic books and stylised cartoons like Batman Beyond) and always dismissed - no mather favorite age of comic books, CO often fails in this department.
One of the first requirements for superhero mmo would be to actually LOOK like a comic book inspired game.
Not making up numbers here, and the reason we don't have the same population here as we did from launch is a completely different reason than thematics.
Theres a reason why artists like Todd Mcfarlane and other non traditional super/hero/antihero/comic creators sell as much as they do, because people get tired of the same hello kitty happy go lucky tight spandex cape thing thats been repeated for the past 40 to 50 years. The following was small back then, and is still small now. Don't believe me? Check a Barnes and noble for a spandex comic section. Then compare the amount of content they have there to the amount of Vampire/post apocalyptic/zombie horror themed stuff that isn't even a comic. (Does it mean readers in general are more dark and edgy loving than before, should we be afraid? Probably.)
There are only so many heroes who have pulled off that direction and made it last for years long enough to still stay relavent to 12 year olds. The rest....well....Iron man had one one of the biggest grossing films this year, while super man....be honest people went to go see that because Pacific Rim and Will Smiths movies weren't out yet.
And if you wanna go on about tights, just look at wolverines reaction when they showed him that ridiculous blue and yellow suit. Pretty sure he'd pick jeans and a T-shirt any day. So if Stan Lee has enough brass to think its corny and he's one of the biggest proliferators of the genre, I'm pretty sure its corny. Its like wearing Bell bottoms and 6 inch fish bowl platform shoes in 2013....how practical is that.....really. One of the heroes from the incredibles died from hanging himself on his cape.....safety hazard.
Its just not practical for that to be the go to standard. Its cool that its there, its cool that it exists, but, not offering the other options out there for creating a hero just limits you to falling back on your IP or title or franchise being the biggest pull you have.
Its the reason why Star Trek, our own developers game has such a huge following, its the reason Marvel had the opening numbers it did, (even though theres spider man fans out there who wont even give it a chance because wtf is the point of playing a game with spider man if you can't shot web off of buildings and swing around the sky and generally be spider man....).
DC online is doing the same thing, but they realized early that in order to push that game they'd have to offer something other than "be batman" If I wanted to be batman I'd play the PC game completely devoted to "being batman". By offering the choices they have that are, (pretty much a rip off in similarity to the options in champs and city of heroes.) By offering those choices they're able to pull in people who don't just like golden age heroes. Thus making it an mmo, instead of a game that people play to look like that other guy with the cape, but wear pink instead of blue and red.
I know its rediculous from a true comic die hard genre stand point, but realistically.....walk out to the middle of millinium city and try to count the amount of golden age heroes.....now count the amount of GI Joe looking, Robotic, Alien Cat Girl mofos. Don't take my word for it. Speaks for itself.
Now if you were to take away the option to be that GI joe looking cobra command/dinosaur/aliens vs predator/catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime/Droid looking characters, and say, ok you can only look like "this". This game would have died last year if not sooner.
Like I said people didn't leave after opening because they only wanted to be golden age, because that option was available. People left because of the same reasons we ***** on the forums to this day. Content. Balance. PVP. And money.
QFT. By being flexible they have allowed more potentially paying customers. In the end, more customers means more money for development.
Awesome. Usually more wordy. Not this time. Awesome.
Yeah, the truth is- it's straight neglect.
To be fair, McFarlane's not a great example. He ended up being a one-trick pony, and his best work was a series of 'action figures' that didn't do anything except sit on a shelf in one pose. Not to mention, he simply recycled artwork and just drew a different costume on characters to pass it off.
His designs weren't bad- you could put Spawn and several of his other characters alongside Marvel or DC characters and they'd fit just fine. Spawn was originally designed as a traditional cosmic-power superhero, McFarlane just changed his origin. And then absolutely wrecked the story later.
I think the idea is that the best 'theme' would be modern day heroic age. A lot of heroes still have a traditional look, just updated. After all, Superman's costume hasn't changed much. Batman's has become more detailed over the years. They still look awesome in the same comic book, because there's a similar style.
In truth, Champions has to deliver on this because it's tauted to advertised as 'be the hero you want to be'. If it were restricted in some way- perhaps by its lore, then there would be less random insanity that doesn't merge with what most people see as comics. That's where it sort of shoots itself in the foot. You may have to forgive this mini-rant on Champions' lore.
I read the primer, and it isn't poorly written. It's just not to my liking. Judging from what you say here, you probably wouldn't like it. I find it to be a little too campy while it's pretending to be serious. There's some pretty neat ideas in it, but over all I'm not a fan.
Now, the problem CO has? It took that campy stuff and ran wild with it. However, instead of pretending to be serious- it tries to pretend it's funny. Which makes it come off as sad. I almost feel embarrassed for whoever wrote this in and the guy who approved it. It takes the worst camp and builds on it while disregarding [Mechanon] or butchering [Multifaria] the interesting parts.
So, in a nutshell it gives you ultimate freedom to create whatever you want. But it's a moot point, really. It's like getting the coolest action figure... but as a playset you have to use your sister's Fisher-Price My First Dollhouse and pretend it's a badass base or something.
Reason for that rant? If you have a better setting, you can limit down the tastes that you would try to appeal to. Why? If you made a fantasy MMORPG set in the Game of Thrones universe, you wouldn't have people demanding to be Orcs, Samurai, Demons, etc. You could focus on making the best possible stuff for Game of Thrones type characters.
Maybe. Or, we'd have more focus on what people wanted that were interested in a super hero game. I'll be the first to say it: I don't have the slightest idea why we need 3 fantasy armor sets, 2 variations of demonic armor/parts, and a few others. Yes, there may be some characters in modern age comic books that use these things- but I kind of think it was not the best idea for a mass number of people expecting a super hero game. I'm not certain the demand was for stuff you can get in a fantasy MMORPG.
I guess what I'm saying again is like, if you made a game set in the GI Joe universe, I could see people asking for civilian clothes costume packs. I can see them asking for ninja costume packs. I could even see them asking for historical military uniforms. But if you came in there asking for Dark Demon Armor Spike Killsuit, you'd probably be blown off considering how it doesn't fit- and you were never given the impression that you could be something like that from the start.
There are plenty of ways to restrict a superhero setting to a more normal, modern-era theme to keep down the demand for random cosmetics that only appeal to a small number of people.
Point of order:
In a general sense you're right. CO has a reputation for being too "campy". However, most content post launch has been more serious than camp. I think sometimes people get defensive and say "hey the game is just quirky and the writers were having fun!" without realizing what in hades they are talking about.
I love nemcon. Well in theory.
When people hear that Shadow Destroyers speech "alpha-omega blah blah derp" in Nemcon is the speech Skeletor gives in "HeMan:Master of The universe (spelling?)"" it goes like this-
"Nuhh uh! They'd get sued!"
"Liar you made that up because you hate the game! Also Can Ihaz globals for a retcon?"
"I've seen that movie, that didn't happen!"
(After shown proof)-" "All bad guys talk in these terms! It's a commentary on the Mobius strip that exemplifies good and evil and........"
Champions Online isn't as goofy as everyone says it is. Yes it has super cringeworthy nonsense like Foxbat and the Sapphire concert. But to a certain degree it's us who overplay the goofiness when trying to get rid of it.
No, you literally made up numbers to support your idea about theme:
So you're saying that Champions, a game based on Western comic books, should incorporate anything that's popular in literature? Sparkly vampire stories and anything zombie, yay, I'm out.
I'd like a citation for the superhero genre "following" being "small" 40-50 years ago. And what are we comparing to? It's quite a nebulous statement.
Ah, so now classic-style heroes are only for 12 year olds. Pardon me for being such a child. Insults: The best way to gain footing in a discussion.
And what's your excuse for Avengers? That movie made more money than any other movie (or whatever) because people were bored and the right movies weren't out yet Or was it little kids forcing their parents to go watch the movie?
Wolverine's reaction to anything is gonna be some tired-**** "I'm too good for this crap," because he's a terrible character and a terrible example.
So you're saying superheroes that wear tights are not popular nowadays. Okay. Do you happen to read any comic books at all that you don't have to start at the back cover and end up in the front, by chance? Honest question, here.
Limits you? It's not a limit, it's preventing you from becoming a genreless-whatever. Do you go out and say that zombie movies/books/whatever are limiting themselves by not having things like Rainbow Brite in them? I mean, it's sure to pull in a larger audience, right? My Little Pony is huge right now, let's get them together with zombies and bacon and make a game out of that, why not? Why just limit yourself to zombies? What about zombie romances? Need those. Vampire/Zombie crossbreeding for all those tweens out there. Gotta have that so you don't just have your established IP to fall back on, right? Forget respecting the IP, let's just sell out.
I never said anything about "just golden age heroes," did I? I'm not even a fan of the golden age, not sure why you'd zero in on that.
Exactly. The game looks like a hodge-podge of genres that don't belong together, and it's enough to turn some people off of the game. You know, all those comic-book die-hards that can't stand anime? Those exist, you know. How do you know that by adding anything and everything to the "genre" of this game, you're not losing customers? For all we know it's an even trade-off, and the only thing that's harmed in the process is the integrity of the IP itself.
Prove it.
So being able to be a catgirl/demon/zombie/Japanime didn't exactly save the game, but you seem to think that these genres being in the game is so crucial for its survival.
Interesting. So to sum up, this game would be dead if you didn't offer up a bunch of different genres, because comic books are dead, but the game is dead anyways because of other factors not directly related to genre.
I don't think you've convinced me that if this game was solely based on Western comic books, it'd be much worse off.
Not campy? This game is full of badly written, forced humor supported by completely missed graphic stylisation. You can't play CO ignoring stupid things like for example - VIPER attitude test. Unless you're completely not paying attention to things like flavor text and quests.
There is simply too much of it.
NPC chat is another example. Fortunately it can be turned off.
Worse, those aren't even needed. This game isn't that scary to be in any serious need for comic reliefs everywhere.
Fortunately in RP I can use CU and completely ignore as much Cryptic fallacy as I can.
DCUO isn't campy.
CoX was not campy.
CO is campfest done by people who simply don't care about the genre. Doesn't matter how many things like Nemcon or Whiteout one can add to this game. Everything old needs to be also changed.
Comic reliefs are good from time to time but CO has reversed proportions - few things in it are even remotely serious.
Of course it's impossible.
This is why CO simply needs a good successor. Another game. With more options than DCUO.
There was one bit of humor in CO well done. Old item descriptions. those are now removed, because again - nobody cared enough to copypaste it.
Which sums CO state perfectly - nobody in Cryptic cares.
Obviously, Biff, you're very passionate about this, and I'm likely going to regret sticking my head into this, but I think you guys might actually agree on more than you think, if you'll take a step back.
Taking the quote above as an example, you may be misunderstanding what he was trying to illustrate. 12 is about how old I was when I got into comics, and moth of my sons were roughly that age, as well. (My younger son is 11, and his tastes are just now evolving from Ponies to XMen.) What I read in his statement was an analogy for "the next generation," but that may be colored by my own experiences with comics.
Also, to the follow-on poster who said that CoH was not campy, but CO was, because it was created by people who care nothing about comics, that's a gross distortion. Champions Online went through documented development changes, originally being conceived as Marvel Universe Online, but, more importantly, many of the original development team are the same ones who made City of Heroes. What I see is more a misguided, though honest, attempt at not repeating themselves, at least thematically.
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Well-said, the entire post.
Personally, if I were to make a game based on comic books, it would embrace all of the comic book "ages," even the ones I don't particularly love. But it would at least stay in a defined genre.
I'm a guy who has a deep respect for comedy and not letting things take themselves too seriously, but if I hear one more PSI pun...
My impression of the game was that it was done by a bunch of people who were just into creating/designing/writing MMOs in general, not comic book MMOs in particular. Many aspects of the game feel like they looked at other games, regardless of genre, and said "Ooh, let's put that in, too!" It could have worked, but they stapled it on instead of kneading it in.
I'm not quite sure I agree with you on this, based on his remarks:
Not exactly holding the genre to a high regard, here.
I agree with most of this, I guess I was a little vague. The point I was trying to get across was that for the most part (Foxbat and Sapphire concert being the exceptions) was that while the writing in many areas is campy, it's also derivative toot he point of taking some things from other mediums that don't have much to do with the ip and parodying it, if not directly (albeit rarely) quoting verbatim from lore outside the ip.
I hate Foxbat. The Gadroon are an embarrassment. The Sapphire concert is bar none the worst in game "event" I have ever had the distinct displeasure of experiencing. Cryptic dev team is so lazy we have orcs and a ben grimm knockoff legitimized and in game. I could go on, but really what I wasaying was this:
There is camp. And there is bad writing.
The camp is an oft used excuse to call this game lame over more websites than I wanna count, and I don't think it's fair given the majority of story content released after launch day. Some of it is fairly gritty. The bad writing I think is a more recent (again imo) development due mostly due to the lack of resources.
We went from Aftershock too:
"There are Lemurians, and they might haz Bleak harbinger, and maybe might invade while Until is Untiling in Lemuria looking for stuff." As if people would go "oh a bleak harbinger" and picture a specific enemty type rather than a broader statement of things to come.
"Fight on the moon! Aliens wanted to watch you fly tanks through rings in the sky AND NOW FIGHT!!!!!!"
Yes it's bad. Very bad. But lack of effort doesn't mean intentionally bad writing.
CO has had some good writing.
Just wanted to point that out, otherwise I agree with the majority of your sentiment.
** I deliberately avoided discussing Foxbat in detail because for me he does not exist in this gameworld for me. Or any other medium. Maybe in the ip it works, but for the life of me the way it was probably presented during rd/implementation I can't believe it made the cut.
I think even the most serious comic book types would play this game if it was alive. Because, heck, what else are you going to play?
This game has always been a bit goofy and incoherent. Some of us like that. Some people don't.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I like it.
What annoys me more is games of the suepr hero nature that try Tooooo hard to be serious, so serious and ironically to me they come off as one a game that is not comfortable just being it self, and two usually looks like desperate writing and forced seriousness which kills it. And three not a very relaxing game to play. Because as I see it, most hero storylines are already not very serious to begin with, especially the golden age ones. I mean how serious am I expected to take a dude with an unreal large chin, that wear underwear on the outside and wear a cape and wear an outift tighter than yoga pants? And usually use cheesy dialogue and or very cheesy lame catchphrases? Not exactly something I would take serious in mood compared to the nature of games like Doom or even Call of Duty (knowing that people actually do that stuff for real and the resulting carnage I seen personally from it in RL.).
I agree that most comic book types will play this game. One the artwork alone is comic book like, although comic books even western style comic books, are styled in various manners and use different art styles. I think western style should be plural because there isnt exactly one style, even within the same hero storyline. Through out the ages, even the style of the old stand by Superman comics changed style throughout the years and then there are various styles for the various spin off comics of Sueprman.
And I just went through an old collection of comics I had laying around all made by western companies. Some are styled like Frank Miller black white and red style. Some are straight cartoony, some are styled more traditional stereotypical, some a bit mroe edgy and some go for realism. Even the hero characters, while many of the most popular ones have similar styles sometimes called Golden Age, hero comics have various styles and costume looks. Some fall into the "fashion sin" black/red. Some wear bright colors. Some are armored. Some use large weapons, some are demi-gods, some are dead, some are normal humans, some are technical geniuses, soem are military ex-militrary or affiliated with military, some are demon styled, some are old, some are young, some take place ian dark gritty environment, some take place in a bright go lucky, Leave it to Beaver world, some dont even take place on earth, some use fire ,some use ice, some use chains, soem use hammers, some use oversized swords, some us magic while wearing Catholic girl outfit, some are pirate styled, even a few in the collection that had areligious slant, and some that were anti-religion, some maim, some kill, some simply arrest, possess others, and few were dressed as old samurai lving in a NYC styled city to bring evil doers to justice.
On thing I like about this game is freedom to create a character, and soem may not follow the rules that the creators of Batman Superman Xmen and the big dogs laid down for themselves. If that was the point then there is no point in haveing customization if the only rules in hero creation have to strictly follow what DC/Marvel says a hero is supposed to look liek and wear, then we might as well just go play games where they already have premade characters for us like Marvel. That way it ensures that the "Western style" rules that DC/Marvel created is strictly adhered to.
I know I wish the Hero Games had more camp in them. I honestly think it'd help quell the PvP rage people feel for one another.
There are millions of ways you can create a Western comic style hero, from any of the eras, from 1930 to 2013. Saying that restricting character creation to a Western style you might as well go play a Marvel/DC game is as shortsighted as saying "Why have more than one anime if you already have DragonBall Z?" Anime characters are all the same, right? Big eyes, small mouth, wacky hair, powerful beyond human comprehension.
The point is that Cryptic blended a lot of genres into the game, that in my personal opinion, didn't need to be. As a result the game has a very weak theme.
You like this game because you can make whatever character you want. I liked this game because it was supposed to be a superhero game.
A superhero setting that doesn't come off like a parody saturday morning cartoon, and a superhero setting that isn't so serious it's like playing Watchmen Online. This is what comics are doing this very day.
That is kind of exactly what CoX did, and I have heard nothing but great things about the writing. To be fair, if I could: I would honestly love to see Champions' character creator and freeform system transplanted into a newer version of CoX.
Sadly, Champions Online's awful writing gets what I call the 'Tarantino Justification' from too many people. It's the justification people use that in a nutshell says 'if it's bad on purpose, it's not bad'. No, it's still bad most of the time. It has no appeal to anyone who isn't in on the joke (Sort of like Tarantino's Grindhouse movie) so to anyone else- it looks dumb. It's like Dane Cook's bad comedy that revolves around him making references from the 80's, but once you take away that the guy just comes off like a kid with ADHD trying desperately to be accepted.
It was mentioned earlier about the lack of player cohesion. Compared to CoX, CO's playerbase is nowhere near as close. Most of this is because as I've seen, it looks like 'Anime Gigglefest Ninja-time Go!' Online, or 'Satan's Little Helper' Online, or 'Fetish Fighter' Online.
This creates more division- especially when there's the above extreme... and a plethora of players who play actual superheroes, and somehow look glaringly down their nose at anything that isn't a Silver Age Superhero. Even characters that you can totally imagine in a comic get snubbed by these players, because they've been shoved into a corner and surrounded by things that don't fit the setting and told they HAVE to accept it. In what these players thought was going to be their world.
Truth be told, you come in like me, you see both sides and you're disgusted.
And this is the point. Super hero characters to have a lot of room to be diverse and different. But when I see Yoshikosha Kakawashi The samurai foxgirl in a schoolgirl outfit and Lord Evilbutt McMurderfart the Unholy and Generally Impolite fifty feet tall in full plate metal with blades and spikes and flames everywhere, I can't help but look at the setting and then at Cryptic and say 'Why?'
So yeah, it's 'cool' that you can make whatever you want. But when you log into a superhero game and the only 'Superhero' you meet is a jerk that eyerolls you and talks down to you because you're playing a cyborg in red and black and not wearing tights like a 'real' hero...
It really doesn't feel like a superhero game. More like a fashion contest for the deranged. And it takes a lot to make you want to stay.
So the point you're trying to get across is that you hate Quentin Tarantino and Dane Cook, yes?
That should be the point of all posts.
The word 'hate' is a strong word. I dislike when people claim that the former is a genius because he straight up steals themes and even entire movies [City on Fire] and tries to pawn them off as being some kind of masterpiece after he's dragged out everything that made them bad on purpose. The latter more because he's obnoxious and unfunny once you realize he's just making these reference so your clap your hands and laugh like a loon because you remember Optimus Prime.
Biff- do me a favor and take a look at the first post on the 8th page of this thread.
Of note, another thing that bugs me is how games like DC Universe- despite the limitations they've placed on certain things (No body sliders, very few actual customizable/changeable parts, and no costumes worth buying without grinding Raids or doing PvP), the game looks like it's full of super heroes. There are some very dark mystical and hi-tech costume pieces, and very few high-fantasy elements and no anime/manga themes. Not to mention the trailer cinematic shows all the heroes in pretty awesome variants of their costumes.
Even watching the trailers for the games DCUO and Injustice: Gods Among Us makes me question why Champions Online keeps missing the mark. You can have superheroes that look both traditional and those that look like badasses alongside one another- and even merge them.
Though I could get with this, though I don't really remember any time at all where City showed it had a sense of humor. Not saying it didn't, I just don't remember it. I think superhero games could use some humor, but not to the effect of them damn PSI puns!
One point for and one against. When I played City, there were plenty of monster people and anyone that had been around for more than a year had wings (exaggeration but whatever).
However, when City did shut down, I did start seeing a lot more classic looking heroes around Millennium City. I always take screenshots of nice tights costumes that I happen to see out in the wild, and needless to say, screenshots were few and far between before. Nowadays I take them more frequently, which is a pleasant surprise.
If there's a silver-age-elitist group in Champions, I honestly haven't met them. (Seriously, where do I sign up?
But really, get some tights. :biggrin:
Mine only goes to 6 (not using default forum settings) so I don't know what post you refer to.
Being fair, I didn't play the game that long.
Right, and when you logged in to CoX you knew you were playing a superhero game. People embraced the idea of comic book superheroes because the game had a setting that made you respect it. Not a series of armpit noises and themes that almost seem to mock the superhero theme more than praise it.
Nah, the exoskeleton is cooler. I'll eventually replace Cyborg on the Justice Leage, because blue is for nerds.
Post 71.
Personally... eh. It's a wash to me. There are some things that were more developed in CoH, but also more overwrought and ham-handed. There are some things that are silly in CO, but also more coherent and thematic.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I know one thing that could solve all of this, including the mcbutts and the catgirlmarais.
One word, that CO doesn't have and I think is the only real reason theres no true cohesion.
Villains
Villains, thats it. Villains have existed in comic book and manga lore (manga is the japanese word for comic, anime being the animated form of the comic...there really is no difference east vs west except in how we draw faces and costumes. The stories are just as ridiculous on both sides.)
Villains have no rule set, they have no standard except, "go after the good guys".
Villains can do anything, say anything, wear anything, and be featured in any setting doing the above.
Once you allow the player to be the villain all of the rules change, and usully in favor of the villain. By giving the hero a reason to exist and adding general mayhem to a world like champions which pretty much falls under saturday morning cartoon campy.
It worked for CoX, and I loved being a villain. I think it would help set purpose to those genres that show up in Champs that make you go wtf. Because in champs....we're all forced to be good guys, and that kinda sucks.
And this is a perfect way to make Slashy McMurderfart blend in. Guy logs in, sees the setting- Boom. He can do all that and feel like her belongs there.
Guys who play more serious hero characters feel more awesome when Slashy McMurderfart is tearing up the block.
EDIT:
Also, hear me out: When I was plotting up what I thought would make an awesome Science Fiction game, there was no 'good' or 'evil', more based on what faction you believed in.