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Why PvP is fun in CO & What Works Well
oobtree
Posts: 1,068 Arc User
It might help if everything they heard wasn't immediately confirmed upon entering. It isn't really common in online games that the first time you enter pvp, you find yourself unable to even damage anyone, much less kill them, despite being the same level as everyone else and having the same level of gear. Then they spend a bunch of time getting farmed by groups of people, and then they find out that there's this whole thing about farming devices (but not through pvp)...and then some weird girl runs up, hits them once, and bounces away and somehow wins by doing that.
Level 40 end-game content, according to another thread on the general forums is this:
flyingfinn wrote: »Done all the missions?
Collecting Perks.
Doing daily UNITY/UNITY 2 missions.
Finishing your build.
Perfecting your build.
Making more costumes.
Adventure Packs.
Comic Series.
Daily Questionite missions.
Doing high level Lairs.
Defeating Cosmics.
Hanging in the Ren Center.
Making more alts.
PvP wasn't even mentioned, that's how disregarded CO's PvP (sadly) is. So let me begin by saying that the (IMHO) true level 40 content of CO -is- PvP. Now, brace yourself... No, sorry, your regular, concept/theme PvE build will not do so well in PvP because PvP is a place for maximized, hard-hitting builds. This is in regards to the unrestricted freeform environment perpetuated by Champions Online membership privileges. A service Cyptic/PWE offers for $14.99 (USD) per month and a service most hardcore PvPers take advantage of. There is a reason freeform accounts are awarded a free retcon at level 40. Should one choose to participate in PvP, you will need to at least make friends with some known PvPers to get some tips about how to build properly to be competitive. As with any competitive game, having the best "setup" or whatever combo is good to know. Regarding getting farmed, that really isn't the case much anymore. Only certain PvP SG's seem to farm other members of opposing PvP SG's. Personally, I tend to only fight my strongest opponents no matter what SG they belong to. But I cannot control how other SG's/members should perform.
Regarding Devices, that's basically a part of the non-Alert-only PvE experience leading up to level 40. If people are only getting to level 40 via Alerts, then yes, they are missing out on a lot of other content & rewards. But, I will admit that PvP is the one and perhaps only aspect of CO that will require a bit of forum reading to get the basics of how to perform well in such an environment. And to help with such investigation.. Here's a list of great PvP devices:
Ice Grenade, Omicron Induced Strength, Eruption... And that's it for the most part. A couple Ice Grenades (for burst damage), and also relying on Omicron for a travel-power remover is a great start at learning how to not waste points/powers on the Nailed to the Ground advantage (or powers that have NTTG as an advantage.)
Regarding the last part of your quote. Yes, people can win a B.A.S.H. match simply by doing a little damage to each player and fleeing (with Teleport or other means.) It's a very easy way to swoop in, hit everyone hard for a moment and flee from the fight once it get's too tough for you to win and/or if you get outnumbered and the odds are severely against you. Just let them kill each other after applying your damage. PBAoE attacks are also optimal vs enemies who are tightly grouped together. Attacks like Straffing Run, Force Detonation, or Force Cascade are perfect for such scenarios.
To then be told that the problem is the build they had so much fun making, in this game where customization is the one and only real bullet point, and if they want to participate in this part of the game they have to rebuild, and follow certain rules while doing so, in large part giving up the majority of the customization, or basically make no progress is going to strike a lot of people as draining the bath water so you can sit in the bath tub more effectively.
This is PvP we are talking about. Not PvE content where your concept build with 5 attacks and little active offenses/defenses or heals is fine. PvE is super-easy to most any PvP build. PvP builds are typically extremely defensive & offense with a respectable amount of dodge and avoidance ratings as well as critical chance and severity. How is that a bad thing for PvE content? You are right in that a normal PvE concept/theme build will get throttled in the PvP/B.A.S.H. environment. It's a place for players to perform well vs other players. Sorry if you're trying to direct this argument into a "why won't my PvE concept toon do well in PvP and FU cuz it doesn't" direction but considering that PvP is not PvE then the argument is invalid from the start.
Basics of what works in PvP building: 2 Active Offenses (typically Ego Surge Rank 1 + Advantage & Ascension R3), 2 Active Defenses (Masterful Dodge R1 & Resurgence R1), 2 additional heals (typically Bionic Shielding and Conviction), Passives such as Aura of Primal Majesty, Quarry, Defiance, Invulnerability, Pestilence, Shadowform, Seraphim, Night Warrior or Lightning Reflexes. Spike Damage such as Ebon Ruin (as it debuffs opponents ability to heal by 50%), Telekenetic Lance, Force Cascade, Defile (with Pestilence = huge damage), Shoulder Launcher + Pulse Beam Rifle, Lightning Arc/Two-Gun Mojo/Chest Beam, or Dragons Wrath (for you melee builds), Dragon Uppercut, Haymaker & Brute Strike (both for healing debuffs.) Concentration or Enrage depending on if melee or ranged for toggles, Sonic Device/Lunges for either ranged or melee and for energy return Molecular Self-Assembly is typically universal. Force Geyser and Hurl are great for applying Nailed to the Ground, and the later is great for applying Crippling Challenge. That is, unless you maximize with a device in mind such as Omicron Induced Strength. Anything else is really theme oriented.
Basics for super stating: Honestly Primary Super Stat Strength is almost a must. It boosts your knock resistance, and the specializations boost your critical severity and Defense a great deal. Secondary super stats are less important. As long as Constitution is one of them (and boosted as much as you can for the defense spec from STR PSS) you are set. I use Intelligence as my other secondary. That isn't as important and can be swapped around depending on what passive you choose to go with. Some people may want Dex, Rec, or Ego.
Basics for gear: Heroic Primaries (at the very least) preferably Legion Primaries (boosting critical chance, avoidance rating and cool down respectively) with Rank 5 mods (at the very least) or R7 mods. Mods for Primary Offense/Defense gear: Gamblers Lucky Gems & Con Mods (providing your Primary Super Stat is Strength), your other non-Constitution Secondary Super Stat should be boosted by (primarily) your secondary gears. Stealth sight should be a priority for your Primary and Secondary Utility gears.
It's just too big of a deviation from the core of the game. It makes you start to wonder why you're choosing to pvp in CO, when you can't really play CO while pvping in CO... I mean, you could be a pile of numbers in some other game with an active pvp community that's actually seeing some development.
Really? PvP builds perform superior in PvE content compared to the average, non-PvP oriented CO build. I think you are struggling with this statement. Not much else to say in response to this. Previous responses put this statement to shame.
What's the counterargument to all this? What do you really get in exchange for what you give up to make "progress" in pvp?
You only gain strength with knowledge about successful PvP builds. You lose no progress in regards to PvE performance. Honestly, how are you asking this question if you are supposedly an old school PvPer? You would/should know that PvP builds do exceptionally well in PvE content, suffering absolutely no loss whatsoever.
Hell, it's true, people spend a lot of time saying bad stuff about pvp here... ever wonder why you rarely see anyone saying anything good about it?
Likely due to influential antagonists by anti-PvPers such as yourself. With enough time and brainwashing by "influential" people, you can get anyone to hate anything.
Finish this senteance: Champions Online has better pvp than any other online game because ______ ...and no, "because I'm winning." is not a good answer.
______ ...because PvP is fun! The Freeform system available to Champions Online makes it's PvP system one of a kind!
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This is partially true.
I run PvE lairs with pickups, RPers, or friends, and I can usually beat almost everyone out in the entire team in the way of damage.
With only Ebon Ruin, NPG, and Ice Grenades. With my PvP squishy (comparatively) build, Prankenstein, I can solo Destroyer, entire rooms on Elite for several minutes until everyone whittles the bosses down.
[This Being Said] Any PvEr who actually understands what they're doing will beat me out. Those who tap boomerang spams or run DPS AoE builds will beat out the average PvPer in lairs. Please, those of you who like to twist my words to veiled elitism: this is not me bragging, this is simply arguing a point.
Other than that, nice post, Mal.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
So ya don't like the Freeform PvP climate, eh? I don't like it either. I enjoy being a squishy striker who does one thing really well and that thing is hitting other things really hard. There's no place in the current PvP climate for that, however! Freeform PvP is all about heals, spikes and flying around with Ascension.
So here's why everyone should have an AT and play AT PvP!
1. There is some semblance of balance in AT PvP and you don't need to put a lot of thought into a build you may not really like. You're use what you've got and you use it well.
2. People - actually - die in AT PvP. In the current Freeform PvP climate fights can last nearly forever, and they used to until Legacy Devices showed up, and even then Freeform fights can last a long while. Nothing is more exhilarating than pulling off a kill despite being nearly dead.
3. There are true roles in AT PvP. Everyone is a tank-healer-DPS in FF PvP, but a well-constructed team of say, a Soldier, a Radiant and a Behemoth, could compliment each other and do amazing as a team, rather than every single Ebon Ruin slingin' Freeform teaming up to go fight the other SG that dominates BASH.
4. While it is true that some ATs are leagues above others and some ATs are far worse than the rest, the truth is that with proper strategy and skill, the overpowered ATs can be sunk. Yes, I am encouraging ganging up on the Glaciers and Masters. Leave those poor Infernos alone. Q_Q
The strongest, most easy to use ATs include the Glacier, the Master and the Scourge, but the other ATs are viable. The only ATs I suggest avoiding like the plague are The Impulse, the Inferno and the Inventor. They're just too useless for PvP.
So, c'mon, create a solid AT! Even better if you do it without Legacy Devices. ;D
PS: With my Nighthawk Gadgets ranged build, I was able to out-DPS a PvP build in Nemcon. Take - that. - you know who you are
PPS: crap, he actually posted above me.
Thanks for the addition for AT's. Although I must say I use to play an Inventor rather well (in duels, at least.)
:biggrin:
I'm not trying to say that a dedicated PvEer cannout outperform a PvPer in PvE content. What I am wanting to say is that PvPers suffer very little performance-wise in PvE content. With that said, logically, a PvEer should do exceptionally better than a PvPer at said content, however a PvEer in PvP content does exceptionally horrid in PvP content. The trade-off for a PvPer to do well in PvE content is < (less than) the trade-off for a PvEer to do well in PvP content. The sacrifice is worth it if one is interested in PvPing at all.
Looking back at pvp (when I started) I'd say I'd agree with Malware (Oobtre), whatever he's known by now, I started because pvp was actually really fun. All PvE content is so predictable. You have a group of 3 normal enemies or a group of 1 super villian or whatever paired with a normal enemy. It's the same thing, forever, everywhere, in all 3 zones of CO. But pvp is different. PvP was something new each time you entered a match. It was kept fresh and interesting even through the rage and there was a lot of it. But now, Smoo is right.
The state of pvp is very different, and I completely understand why. Certain powers/combinations are just plain better than being original and it's that way because of "balancing" by the developers. Although it does seem a bit hypocritical with devices now, because that used to be such a bid deal. " X is a noob because they used Y in a duel" and so on. PvP has lost a lot of things and I think the fun for beginners (which we all were at some point) is the most important. Because it's this fun that brings new faces, keeps old ones and generally provides a good time for all involved.
P.S. Isn't it just hilarious how the Dev Tracker is still empty. "Oh it's bugged and we're working on it" Yeah, okay...
How will there ever be new players if we do not try to help them get involved? As opposed to dissuading them completely (as Smoochan seems to prefer.) This thread is designed to primarily help new players with what works well in PvP, power-wise (in addition to be a response to Smoochan.) Devices/Gear can be worked up towards as time goes on. However I agree that "back in the day" the use of devices was frowned upon by everyone (largely due to ignorance), yet back in the day we didn't have Legion gear or specializations. Now, though, that just isn't the case (largely due to the availability of devices, specs and gear.)
The alternative to Freeform PvP is AT PvP, which still uses devices and gear, OR just running the same old PvE content over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over and over. Forever. Not sure why that is so appealing, honestly...
BTW, I'm @ubtri and the forums didn't allow me to use that handle.
Your input is not at all constructive, but to each their own.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Community Rules and Policies -Smackwell
People should stop to smell the roses then punch their buddies in the face.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I pretty much have my response to this on this post. Thanks for sharing!
I was talking about PvP being something to do at level 40, not so much beforehand. Not to dissuade folks from playing PvP at lower tiers, of course. But in lower tiers, yes, ezmode Alerts are likely not helping.
It is unfortunate when we have obnoxious players who trolls whether or not they win, no substantial rewards for the efforts and ganking.
Yes, it wasn't mentioned, because by the time youre lvl 40 you have started playing PVP if you like it. The quote was from 'What to do after you hit to lvl 40'. (but thanks for the quote.)
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
My Characters on PRIMUS
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__________________________
You pretty much nailed the most used powers. Ego Sleep in conjunction with a Night Warrior's Shadow Strike works well, for obvious reasons. Ego Sleep is also great for pulling off the Chest Beam/Shoulder Launcher combo and can be quite devastating. Stuns are also popular, those from lunges and Void Shift. Roots have worked well in the past, such as Ice Cage and Bolas.
People used to.
And sometimes I mourn the Snaring abilities, something that made double-lunging very special and a viable variation to most of popular crowd controls.
Responses in Italics
Edit: Idiot me derped again, responses are actually in bold.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
Don't worry, I read the whole thing, but this part is key to my point.
What is the first thing, and the primary aspect of the game, that draws new players in and keeps a lot of long-timers here? Is it the prospect of playing with numbers, increasing efficiency, maximizing output while minimizing input, creating profit and loss spreadsheets, filling out your taxes...
You make the point that pvp builds perform superior in pve; and yes they do. But do you think that's all this game is about for people? I see a lot of people using some fairly inefficient builds, and yet when they see me thrashing things at ten times their speed with my build they don't always ask me how I did that so they can copy it...strangely enough, they like their build the way they made it, and they don't care if it doesn't perform as well as someone else's build.
You have to ask yourself one very important thing: with how mind-grindingly repetitive pve is, why is it still leagues and bounds more popular here than pvp? The answer is simple: People enjoy CO because they can build their hero their way, and pve allows you to do that; in pvp on the other hand, players have to accept that their hero may very well be a weakling with no hope of ever being anything but, and that's not how anyone envisions their hero.
Imagine you're a comic book artist, and you created "Super Guy", and you have a successful series of issues built around this hero. One day the "Amazing League" says they would like to do a collaboration with you, and you agree. You start working with them to integrate Super Guy into the Amazing League story line, when one of the Amazing League writers says "Oh... Super Guy doesn't have telepathic healing? Well, in the Amazing League story line all powerful heroes have telepathic healing, so we're going to have to write this story in such a way that Super Guy generally gets his butt kicked a lot and the Amazing League has to help him all the time... how do you feel about him being the comic relief?... or you could... you know.. retcon his story so he has telepathic healing."
And yes, the common response to this line of thinking is "tough cookies, this is how pvp is, it's not like all that 'make a costume and a story' fluff in the rest of the game". However, you have to think beyond what is, and start thinking about why it is that way. It's true, pvp is in fact an environment here where you cannot engage in that "make a costume and a story and stick with it" behavior, but that's certainly not the intent. In fact, the reason it is that way is because of the complete lack of intent given to pvp; the design theory that seems to have fallen in place regarding pvp is "we'll make the rest of the game, and whatever the fallout of those choices is in regards to pvp is what it will be". Out of sight, out of mind.
Players have adapted to this environment, and part of that adaptation has been the acceptance of the reality that you have to abandon the notion of making a character the way you want to make it, and instead have to make your characters the way you have to make them, the end result being that your power choices are restricted, both because many powers simply aren't useful in pvp, and because you have to fill your power tray with many requirements.
This is why pvp is no longer popular, and as someone who is pro-pvp in all online games, I am less concerned with what I have to do to be able to win in the current mess of an environment that pvp has, and am more concerned with what will improve that environment and make it more popular for more players. As far as why I won't try to convince people that they should get themselves involved in what pvp this game has; I won't advertise a bad product simply out of the self-interest of wanting more people to pvp with.
I'm not sure where you got the notion that I'm anti-PVP. I'm as pro-pvp as you can get; I thoroughly believe that any online game without pvp is missing the point of being online. However, that doesn't mean that I have to support what pvp in CO has become, just like I like cheese cake, but if you hand me a god awful piece of cheese cake that tastes like crap, I don't have to tell you it's great, and I certainly won't be recommending that my friends try it.
I highly doubt that anything I've ever said about pvp has convinced anyone to not try it. If people like pvp, they will try it no matter what anyone says. The problem isn't what people say about pvp, the problem is what happens in pvp and how completely out-of-line it is with the rest of the game.
To be honest, I think folks like you, and other "pro-this-kind-of-pvp" types have done more than I ever could to dissuade people from wanting to pvp. Actions speak louder than words after all, and the actions of those pvpers who fully embrace and enjoy the current state of pvp are what convince players who enjoy the "build your hero the way you want to" aspect of the game to abandon pvp, and seeing as "build your hero the way you want to" is the primary selling and sticking point of the game, it's no surprise pvp is as abandoned as it is.
I fully support the concept of players playing "for the numbers". However, I do not support the idea of that being a requirement to participate, when the entire rest of the game gives you the impression that that's not what this game is about.
Oh, you mean the feeform system where the majority of it turns into powers you should avoid, and a few powers become must-have... effectively killing the spirit of that "one of a kind" customization system?
And to the first part, so what you're saying is...
Yes. Pvp is fun, if done right. You haven't really explained why pvp is done so well in CO that it's better than what other games offer. Mentioning the freeform system only draws attention to the point I made above, where you can't really fully utilize it because of the realities involved.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
For me, the true enjoyment factor comes with the competitive side of CO. Sure, I may not be the "Hero I want to be" in a sense, but the thrill of Hero Games outweighs anything in PvE content. It's true that X amount of power combos and X amount of passives, Actives & on-next hit buffs work best, but even in, as you might put it, this awful sorry excuse for PvP in an online game goes, it's still enjoyable to engage in in comparison to other games. Hence why some people still participate.
In the end, neither of us are wrong or right as we see CO PvP from opposite sides of the spectrum. But know this - I am a nice PvPer and am usually willing to help newcomers get started on the right foot. I do not participate in farming obvious "newbies," rather if I see someone else farming them in B.A.S.H. then the guy farming becomes my priority. I think most Spectre react the same. The whole reason I bother to upload videos of CO PvP is with the hopes that new and curious players will watch and learn a thing or two.
I also wanted to apologize for my interpretation of you being anti-PvP. My assumption was based off how you never seem to participate in Hero Games nor seem to desire helping newcomers get involved. I understand that, years ago, you did PvP and that was before my time. Again, no insult intended.
I agree. For me, the pve content of any game generally struggles to maintain my interest, except in the few cases where the programmers really did a great job on the AI. This isn't really relevant to the point being made here though. No one is arguing that people shouldn't engage in pvp, nor that pvp can often be a more dynamic and exciting expirience than pve; this is why I say that any online game without pvp is really missing out.
However, there's a difference between saying "pvp is a fun and dynamic experience" and saying "pvp in champions online is a fun and dynamic experience". Pvp in this game has become less and less dynamic, and instead has become more and more a static experience. If you have a regular build, and your opponent has a min-max build, then there's nothing you can do, no matter how dynamically you play, no matter how much you adjust; you simply cannot put out enough damage to even bring your opponent down past 90% health, much less put them in a position where you could win.
What makes pvp fun is the competition...
Honestly, there are some pretty fun alternatives out there. They're more skill based, and your build matters less than what you actually do in the fight.... but that's actually why they're more fun than what CO currently provides. In those games, it's not even about "building a character" with your build, it really is about the numbers... but even with a smaller overall pool of choices, they manage to have more actual choices available. That's the problem here... you have like 300 things to pick from, but the majority of it amounts to noob traps.
If they ever fix that by making a greater variaty of pvp-viable powers and sort out that god awful specializations system, I'll be right back in those hero games. I miss them... but what's going on in there now isn't the thing I'm missing.
Yeah, I get that from time to time. People seem shocked when they find out I'm really pro-pvp... they just don't seem to understand that the very reason that I'm pro-pvp is the reason I'm so down on CO's version of it.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Disclaimer: I was too lazy today to read through everyone's thesis papers, so I agree with anything and everything Wesleytansg says and I vote him as the new face of CO PVP. YOU DA MAN WESLEY!
Carry on.
BASH being removed from the game would be good in CO. They could claim they found a serious bug in the bash instance and that they're temporarily taking it down while they debug and retune it.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Anyway, well said. Brilliant in fact.
IMHO, PVP "was" fun. It really was. It was the driving force behind me wanting to play this game when it was fresh and new. All the different builds and many ways to build a toon, then matching that build up against others. What could be more fun than being the "Hero you want to be" with the build "You" made yourself! Only real restrictions at the time was that you had no idea what would happen in a battle (Too Early) but it would be fun finding out!
That's no longer the case. Hasn't been for awhile. It's more like build this way, or be destroyed. Conform to these said powers or you cannot hope to compete.
Right there is the very reason PVE drives this game. People want to be the "Hero" they can envision. They want to play with that build. They know that if that build they love and care for goes into a place like Bash...well their hero will die faster than most npc trash mobs do.
Why subject your lovechild to such a fate? Most wouldn't, most don't. Numbers don't lie.
PVE is driving this game. PVP has been impounded, waiting to be refurbished and restored
tickets paid off, new paint job...etc.
I do commend those that still find a reason to pvp though. I mean, there is no love from the devs or from the population as a whole in CO. So in order to play hardcore pvp games you gotta basically "Sell-out" or Sell your Concept short of what you might of been thinking of making just to fit in.
For many though, that's just asking too much.
Like i said, i used to LOVE pvp. LOVE. Not like. In it's current state, not so much.
So, on a positive note, i would love to see more people get into it. Stating why pvp isn't that big a catch, is not being negative IMO.
Finding what's behind the decline so one can maybe do something about it, is positive in my eyes. I want to like pvp again. I tried to get others to join, as not to have my own negative thoughts of how i view pvp (now) rub off on them. It isn't fair. Have the newbs learn for themselves.
If they like it, fine. If they don't, fine. Either way, something has to change for hero games to thrive.
Devs i'm talking to you mostly.
What's a troll build? What's that even mean?
Not trying to be funny. Really, i would like to know.
Got to type this real fast as I am rushing off for a rehearsal. Anyway this is where I have always been coming from. For a "balanced" pvp environment, the system needs to be "more skill based, and your build matters less than what you actually do in the fight".
Unfortunately, the argument goes both ways because that is not the focus of CO. As you have mentioned, CO is about giving variety and as many options as possible to "be the hero you want to be" not about a small set of powers which are balanced for PvP. There is no need to agree or disagree with this approach but that is apparently the approach adopted for CO. You are also right that from the more than 500 things to choose from (we have to factor in powers, gear, devices and specs), many of them can turn into noob traps. If there were just a few classes like the ATs, trying to balance it will be far easier but this would also mean that the entire PvP becomes far more restrictive which defeats the purpose because the "hero which you want to be" cannot take part or does not exist.
From how I see it, the PvP system in CO is not necessarily a bad thing because it is a free for all. True, the learning curve is steep. There are many "noob traps" to avoid. However, I also wish to point out that it is not necessary that those builds which we currently see dominate the PvP scene or what's left of it are the only ones which are viable for PvP. There are many possible combinations out there which players have not experimented. Who knows if someone could come up with the next FotM build tomorrow. However, that requires a lot of testing and in-depth knowledge.
@braddkash
There are far more experienced and skillful pvpers around. I have not even queued for hero games more than 3 times in the past month and is definitely not deserving of such a title.
Gotta love them derogatory terms like "frankenbuild." What's with the non-PvP players trolling these days? I say these days as it all started with lolucy...
Please add constructively to this thread. Or is that a lost cause in all matters regarding PvP? Such a jaded, angry CO community... And considering most of the anger is from people who don't PvP, then why the sided irrelevant comments?
Frankenbuilds ruined PvP. They are the REASON for the anger AND the reason the angry people don't PvP.
This is very relevant
When did you last PvP? More than 2 years ago? Haven't FoTM builds been around longer than that? Still irrelevant, but kudos on maintaining a derogatory stance.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I know we have been through this before but then it is back to one concept build vs another. Different people have different definition of concepts. Even if both players designed their toons with concept as the premise, the performance is still likely to vary.
It will indeed be nice if "concept toons" can play on a different level as a pure PvP performance toon. However, the ability to differentiate the two will be too arbitrary. The best person to differentiate will probably then be the player who decides whether to duel or not to duel but such an option is not available once you are in hero games like BASH other than to exit before getting killed.
AT PvP is available but we all know that a large portion of the "be the hero you want to be" will be lost.
Agreed, the FotM builds have always been around. On-Alert merely pushed the playing field up another notch and the disparity which always existed between a PvP optimized toon vs an average toon becomes more apparent.
It'd be nice if we had the option to make our builds visible to others in-game. That way, if I see you have all the tell-tale signs of being a FOTM build, I could know right away...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Or you could copy someones build instead of thinking for yourself. An option like that would have more negative effects then positive.
You can keep your own style.
I have 10 toons able to do PvP and those have each original concepts so I'm sure about that.
While it may be possible that there will be unconventional PvP builds which we fail to recognise, but the usual FotMs are not that hard to distinguish. We can also watch them duel others and see what powers they use.
See someone without a passive buff icon and concentration (likely quarry which generally comes with FG, 2GM and maybe SR). See someone with an AoPM buff icon and concentration we can expect ER. See enraged toggle, be ready for Unleashed Rage. See WotW and FotT, prepare for DC or DW.
Then of course you look out for the tell-tale signs from the usual PvP SGs.
Was in a rush so now edited to include:
Night Avenger, be prepared for sleep and Shadowstrike
And I am sure you know all about these as you have been in the game far longer than me and have much more experience.
FoTM builds are pretty easy to spot, they usually run AoPM + Conc/Enrage or NW+Conc.
I find it astonishing how many FoTM builds there can be in just Ren Cen.
PvP fights as fast paced as they can be to watch, lack (IMO) an element of tangibility in the sense that, each party has pretty much the same passive and heals and AD and perhaps even stats..so unlike concept builds when they fight there isnt a sense of "omg I could die." its more like a never ending battle. Which will eventually end when someone gets lucky with crits or something.
For me personally, what detracts my attention from PvP is the lack of concept from my point of view that the builds seem to have. You can say yes, a ninja may have learnt magic and gained a magical aura, but then.........5 or 6 more people come along with the same aura? So they all learnt the same magic? Not likely. Oh well, concept is just a massive thing for me. I couldnt imagine running a franken build
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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That's it raven, I'm gonna copy your PFF build and make into an FOTM frankenbuild! Then you have no choice but to say bye bye to your beloved PFF since you can't imagine running frankenbuilds! muahahaha
My build wouldnt make any logical sense to you, it would mean nothing and that in itself would stop it from EVER becoming an FoTM, it has soo many flaws.
But lerl, if you did somehow manage to copy my build and make it into an FoTM, at least this is proof that mine was the original..and then no one can ask me why I left the game Q_Q
PFF is kinda the only thing sticking me to the game powers wise, my telepath hasnt had any love in half a frickin year >:( :mad:
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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Edit: Nevermind, wesley said it better than I.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
Aww. I liked the way you put it.