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New content should only be for elite players.
smoochan
Posts: 2,564 Arc User
Ooga booga! Scared your pants off with that title didn't I? You're all fired up for a casual vs l33t flame war aint ya? Well too bad, bait n' switch.
Everyone who plays this game should be made to feel like they are an elite player, quite simply because this isn't "Champions and not-so-champions Online", it's "Champions Online", we're all Champions. And I don't mean this in a "hey guys, stop calling each other noobs and stop thinking you're better than other people cause you build good" sort of way... I mean this in a "when's the last time there was some serious changes put into improving power balance" sort of way.
This is currently topical, because if you look at any discussion about the upcoming Harbinger event, you'll notice a common theme... "oh, this is only being seen as easy because the players testing it are powerbuilders". And, let's face it, with the current disparity in power level between "power builds" and "not-so-power builds" that's entirely possible, and probably true, and it's a big problem.
Who do you balance the event for? Jhonny-big-numbers who could probably aggro every mob in the game at the same time and have them dead before you could fully charge a force cascade? Or Sally-builds-for-theme, who despite being a freeform has trouble soloing regular missions... and not because she doesn't know what she's doing; she knows she could build better for the numbers, but she fit her build to her character rather than the other way around, and that's how she has fun...and no, she didn't build her character that way with the intention of being weak. Fact is, they're both playing the game in a legitimate way, but the power gap between them is just way too big, and for no other reason than it's been left to become that way.
So really... I'm sure someone can whip it out in a heartbeat. When is the last time we saw a significant number of changes to the power system that was done to lessen that power gap and provide a bit of balance between those "for the numbers" builds and the "for the character" builds?
On Alert doesn't count by the way... unless you can make an outstanding argument for how it made the game more balanced.
Note: For those who want to jump in with the old "my power build is a theme build!" thing... hey, good for you... doesn't really have anything to do with this though... this isn't a theme vs powerbuilder discussion... this is a theme and powerbuilder discussion.
Posted for free by the Smoochan Balance This Game And Make Balancing Future Content Easier And Make Everyone Have More Fun foundation.
Everyone who plays this game should be made to feel like they are an elite player, quite simply because this isn't "Champions and not-so-champions Online", it's "Champions Online", we're all Champions. And I don't mean this in a "hey guys, stop calling each other noobs and stop thinking you're better than other people cause you build good" sort of way... I mean this in a "when's the last time there was some serious changes put into improving power balance" sort of way.
This is currently topical, because if you look at any discussion about the upcoming Harbinger event, you'll notice a common theme... "oh, this is only being seen as easy because the players testing it are powerbuilders". And, let's face it, with the current disparity in power level between "power builds" and "not-so-power builds" that's entirely possible, and probably true, and it's a big problem.
Who do you balance the event for? Jhonny-big-numbers who could probably aggro every mob in the game at the same time and have them dead before you could fully charge a force cascade? Or Sally-builds-for-theme, who despite being a freeform has trouble soloing regular missions... and not because she doesn't know what she's doing; she knows she could build better for the numbers, but she fit her build to her character rather than the other way around, and that's how she has fun...and no, she didn't build her character that way with the intention of being weak. Fact is, they're both playing the game in a legitimate way, but the power gap between them is just way too big, and for no other reason than it's been left to become that way.
So really... I'm sure someone can whip it out in a heartbeat. When is the last time we saw a significant number of changes to the power system that was done to lessen that power gap and provide a bit of balance between those "for the numbers" builds and the "for the character" builds?
On Alert doesn't count by the way... unless you can make an outstanding argument for how it made the game more balanced.
Note: For those who want to jump in with the old "my power build is a theme build!" thing... hey, good for you... doesn't really have anything to do with this though... this isn't a theme vs powerbuilder discussion... this is a theme and powerbuilder discussion.
Posted for free by the Smoochan Balance This Game And Make Balancing Future Content Easier And Make Everyone Have More Fun foundation.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Post edited by smoochan on
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So if thats too powerful for this game, you might aswell make everything even easier so that freeforms inherit the time and space to roleplay with a mob hitting them for 10 minutes!
Personally, as a freeform and (like MOST FREEFORMS) an investor of real cash into the game...where do we go? For over 2 years everyone i talk to just keeps banging their heads on the desk everytime tiny amounts of content comes out its never for the investors, or to push their limits.
So far all superduper freeforms have had to do thats been added since launch thats challenging is Shadow Collossus, Elite TT...uhhh...cant think of anymore...
Its not elitism, its just unjust we feel that 'the more we invest, the more screwed over we feel, not the opposite"
That's not jhonny-big-numbers... that's pauly-gimps-himself. And if pauly-gimps-himself is having an easy time of that fight... then wow, jhonny-big-numbers is gonna be bored stupid by it, a side effect of being unable to balance this game for all its players.
Hey, you're the guy with the research right? Get me that list of the last time there were a bunch of balance changes implemented.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Oh iv been banned before for trying to make them see sense in balance and flaws, you cant use that one on me
One of my theme builds (dual pistols/devices was very very very under powered in CoH) turned out to be an absolute beast, pretty much inadvertently. I don't use that one with non-alert groups that aren't 40 anymore. Ao'Igiveup is about the only non-Gravitar alert villain that doesn't become a cake walk and I think the randoms in alerts like succeeding without undue amounts of (player) death.
Anyways, back on topic, balance-wise you'd have to really cut the top down before bringing the bottom up and that would piss off a lot of people. If they just improved the under performing powers there'd be all new ways to blow the lid off the top end performance.
CoH had some pretty wide variation just in powerset combinations. With FFs they have to worry about every power interacting with every other power.
Personally, I'd aim normal difficulty level content at solid AT performance. You can always make life harder for yourself but there's a point where you just can't push some builds/ATs past. CO needs to draw people in, while some may love getting absolutely smeared while watching uber FFs do stuff effortlessly most new people to CO are going to be running ATs and those should be the new target. Could some of the ATs be fixed with better power/stat selections? Undoubtedly yes and that would be a very good start since FFs can't break things further with those changes.
Dude... I was here...
That's not why you were banned...
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
They said something else, but we all knew what it was really over, cos the reason stated was false and so out of context you just knew they wanted anything to get rid.
Back on topic, again we begged for a difficulty increase to Elite Mode to satisfy the freeforms but all we got was no dev response, and people who didnt fully read the post flaming it to death cos they thought we were trying to increase the difficulty of Normal.
You act like non elite players are getting tons of content thrown at them. But to say that they should target a small population in the forums, not just the game, for new content is the stupidest thing written on the forums in a while. Almost as stupid as insinuating that Golds spend more money than Silver players.
and you're acting like they're saying all hard-mode all the time. Honestly I suck at this game and I find it to be a cakewalk most of the time
and for the record compared to the elites, yes the non-elites are getting tons of content, mostly because even with the sparse additions 100% is a lot more than 0%
heck by taking away all the desirable PvP awards they've pretty much taken away from the elite players
To say that they should continuously neglect a portion of the game's population when they should be trying to keep people interested is the stupidest thing written on the forums in a while. Almost as stupid as insinuating that more people buy $15 every month than are gold.
Or the fact that the game is totally unbalanced which takes away from the whole point of being the hero you want to be. But ya, mostly the rewards.
Acting like all this content has been streaming through the pipeline the past 6 months and they won't throw you a bone doesn't make it true.
I agree that that is stupid. We found common ground, yay.
Fact is, it's not some sort of intrinsic level of knowing the game or inherent intelligence that makes the leets what they/we are... it's just a willingness to take the obvious paths to big-numberhood instead of focusing completely on making a build that focuses completely on making a character, and of course the odd case where the character someone happens to want to make just happens to use the powers that were the subject of the latest "lets buff this by stupid amounts" "balance pass".
There's just not enough of us for us to be bickering over who should get content... we should all get it, nobody should be left behind because nobody deserves to be left behind, especially when you consider that whatever you say, neither side actually did anything to deserve that... it's the devs who did the thing that's causing the divide... or rather, it's what they haven't been doing that caused it.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The basic idea that someone choosing to build for it can handle greater challenges than can those who do not build so is perfectly reasonable. The gap, currently, however is just too great for balancing content properly IMO.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I just think it's stupid to advertise this event for the past month and half and let all levels participate in it, and at the last minute change it to level 35-40 because an elite few complained. I'm going to go ahead and assume it won't meet peoples expectations, but luckily we gated others from it.
As for regular gameplay, they could always make a server where the mobs are ridiculously amped up or add another level of difficulty (or a new zone with hard stuff but I'm derailing here). Personally I would rather add some special element to each mob playing to the strengths and weaknesses of various ATs and builds but that would be a messy undertaking that would break something I'm sure.
Amen and amen. Preach the good word to the ignorant and divisive heathens!
QFT, somehow there are players who will always make plenty of sense.
New content needs to be balance for as large a group as possible. End game content should therefore cast a net as wide as possible so that it can cater to "elite" or "non-elite" players.
One thing Smoochan was right about was the fact that On Alert did not narrow the disparity but instead widens it. The more choices and the bigger the numbers start to go, the greater the gap becomes.
Freeform (FF) can either mean failedform or, to borrow a not-so-polite term "frankenform". There is no way for the game to be balance in such a way that both failedform and frankenform can enjoy the game. Something pitched at the frankenform level will be steamrolling failedforms while anything pitched at failedforms will be major yawns for frankenforms.
When I say failedforms, I am not even referring to something like the ATs but rather a selection of powers, gears, mods or even devices which are so ineffective that they pretty much self-nerfed.
I have given this extreme example before and I shall give it again. If a player decides that his/her theme for the toon known as "Control Freak" is all about holds. Every single power he/she choose is a hold or hold related power with little DPS and possibly no heals. How is the dev supposed to balance the powers and the content such that it will be viable even in comparison to say an AT.
That is the possibility of the freeform system which for some reasons, people are just refusing to acknowledge that it is impossible to achieve a perfect balance. Pre-On Alert only gave the semblance of balance because the numbers were all smaller. Stats, damage strength, HP were all lower and even then, disparity still existed. I remember my freeforms going into BASH to be obliterated by hurl/PBR users before I could even get in an attack. I had a self heal, I had a passive defense, I had attacks but not your usual FOTM. The imbalance was always in existence and there is no denying it.
I can understand why snake will want to push for content with greater difficulty. When things get to easy, there is little purpose to even play the content other than for farming and farming is not necessary a fun thing for most people. However, at the same time, not everyone is a master builder who can design a "frankenform" (no offense intended just borrowing the term) and in fact majority are not. So content pitched at the top end players will become a slap in the face for others and most demoralizing. I agree that they should try to learn the game and improve their build. However, at the same time as what Smoochan said, sometimes it goes beyond what is the best synergy of powers and what constitute the ultimate tanking build etc. Some players, and I think Ravenforce comes to mind here, just like to design her toons the way she likes them whether they face plant or not.
It is really difficult if not impossible to benchmark the difficulty of content to please everyone. But I do have a suggestion. How about pitching the content at a level slightly harder than what a well mixed group of ATs can handle.
Still gonna flame yew and yew know it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
TAKE OFF MY HELMET!!!!!
Sincerely, Caliga
:biggrin:
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
Screw telepathy, REVISE CHAIN POWERS
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In loving memory of AngelofCaine.
When I want more challenging gameplay, I use one of my gimped, thematic toons. With these, I can't simply walk into a mission and spam my best attack repeatedly. I have to use strategy, make best use of several powers, and carefully choose devices.
That being said, I would like to see the hard cap on bonuses brought down a bit. The game already uses diminishing returns for stat bonuses. On the other hand, the game allows for too many combinations and synergies, and there are too many ways to avoid tradeoffs. It really is possible to make heroes that are good at everything.
Final idea: Add content that can't be won by beating foes. Have races, timers, have puzzles, have convo tree interactions, traps, random encounters--these sorts of challenges come at hero power orthogonally. If the Foundry were in the game, these are the missions I would make.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Precisely.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
If trolling is OK, and it clearly is lately, why not? Might as well go whole hog.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
I want it to be harder for higher levels and decent for everyone else who doesn't want to go beyond casual.
I guess I completely misunderstood how scary "skull" tech works.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Agreed. Their difficulty is a bit much for the level they show up at. Particularly for certain powersets at the level and for newer players as you mentioned.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
I remember the original Kevin Poe and zone requests for help taking him down. Also Black Mist and Redstone and...
What?
I'm an old man! I'm allowed to reminisce.
You kids get off my lawn!
** mumble ** where's my teeth **mumble**
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
***
"The great thing about glory unending is that it's dirt cheap!" - Tateklys
From the Adventures of Thundrax (canadascott)
***
There is nothing present in the game currently that's difficult enough to warrant that, even on elite. Your concept heroes should be safe...unless you've got some strange concept like only using an energy builder and no passive with everything else buffing the energy builder. You might be in trouble there.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
There's a name I haven't seen in a while. Just shows when's the last time I did that segment of Canada.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
If anything, thank to On Alert, concept builds got a major boost to play the game. I don't think there's anything that can change or content to be added that would jeopardize that. Unless its more Gravitar. Only a couple of my concept toons can survive that.
...I'm in your suit... poking your everything.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
That...is so wrong.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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All outta wuts with this one @__@"
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I can't wait for the sequel to Resistance where Shadow Caliga (smoochan) faces off against the one and only, original Caliga.
I'm popping bags of popcorn for just such an eventuality.
:cool:
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
***
"The great thing about glory unending is that it's dirt cheap!" - Tateklys
From the Adventures of Thundrax (canadascott)
***
GET OUT OF MY SPARE ARMORS!!!!
Sigh...
Caliga's PRIMUS Database! --XXX--The Caliga Build: Threatening Haymakers! --XXX-- Caliga and Conquer fanart!
What, precisely, is a bad idea?
0.o REALLY bad picture.
You're half his size.
o....0.......O.......* braincell exploding
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...you think it's a bad idea for them to balance the powers better so it's easier to make challenging content that doesn't leave people out due to weak builds created by an unbalanced powers system?
Okay then.
okay so... poking everything I can reach?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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You know what else is a bad idea? Posting a response after only reading the thread title.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Besides, let's face it, at this point the thread could use a good derailing...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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