I do think it'd be good if they'd at least TRY to balance the stuff that's underperforming. Lately I've come to realize just how mediocre a lot of specializations are, which takes a lot of the "customization" options out of them.
Point: It's fully impossible to balance this stuff, when half of the players are using freeforms, and the other half are using intentionally gimped archetypes. Hell, barring the savage (marginally a tank in the first place) we *just* got a tank with a self heal in the Invincible. This power gap isn't weak freeforms and strong freeforms. It's glass cannon threat magnets like the Inferno having to compete with a solidly built (and entirely thematic) Fire freeform with a self heal and active defense. Hell, even among archetypes there's a huge power gap, that isn't just a matter of power balancing. Take the previous Inferno example, and run it with a Scourge. Comparable dps, but the Scourge has access to a really potent self heal, and therefore can much easier complete raid style missions.
That being said? I hate how people throw Gravitar at us when anyone asks for harder content. How long ago was that released? And we were promised more along the same lines, but every time they mention some harder content, someone has to squeak and complain. We have *the one*, so yeah. They did throw us a bone. Next time you complain about how sto is getting so much more dev time, consider the fact that the all casual all the time crowd is getting just as much favoritism over the "give is a bit of a challenge" crowd as STO is getting over CO. And, sure, we'd pvp and just get our jollies that way, but wait. That's getting no love either, and is even more pointless. I think rebalancing the ATs is a good idea, and then giving us some *more* hard endgame is a great idea. And furthermore...
This is the only mmo I have ever seen that has a player base which consistently and regularly endeavors to remove any challenge from the game, and fights any attempts to get the challenge level increased to something even an average player can't steamroll.
It's always the same pack of people that do it, and imo? Shame on you. There's a reason this game is in the tubes, and the laughable difficulty is part of it. Every. Single. Player. I have introduced to this game has left within a few days saying something like "Yeah, I like games that have some challenge to them. This game should have the fisher price label affixed to it". And note that nobody's asking for stupid-hard rebalancing. However, I haven't blocked with a few of my dps characters in months. Not once. Even my Cursed, she just simply never has to. That's indicative of a huge damn problem with this game.
And before anyone says "I wanna feel heroic"? Superman fought doomsday and had to claw his way back from the afterlife. Spiderman fights everyone on the planet, and regularly gets facerolled from time to time. Wolverine had the metal ripped out of his body and then had his claws broken. Bane broke the Bat. Every hero only becomes so after a struggle, so I officially don't wanna hear it. Let's put the nerf bats away for a little while and consider that maybe upping the difficulty from 2 to 4 would keep a few more players. After all, what does dying from time to time lose you? Some stars?
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
It's always the same pack of people that do it, and imo? Shame on you. There's a reason this game is in the tubes, and the laughable difficulty is part of it. Every. Single. Player. I have introduced to this game has left within a few days saying something like "Yeah, I like games that have some challenge to them. This game should have the fisher price label affixed to it".
Are you running Legion gear with rank 9 mods on a FF with all the best powers and if so why are you complaining about others removing challenge when you have done the same thing yourself?
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Are you running Legion gear with rank 9 mods on a FF with all the best powers and if so why are you complaining about others removing challenge when you have done the same thing yourself?
Being equipped a certain way isn't removing challenge, it's simple gameplay mechanics.
When you say 'Best powers' on a Freeform, you are even agreeing with his first statement. There are massive gaps between powers, and especially on archetypes which are practically built-in with power gaps. (Both as a method to suggest subbing for freeform as well as letting you learn what roles are.)
People would love a harder challenge, but unfortunately that probably won't happen since the devs like to take in those on the lower end of the scale in gameplay ability as well. Until we have a full power pass that tries to make EVERYTHING more in line, things probably won't change very much aside from big sacks of hp and large target boxes.
Being equipped a certain way isn't removing challenge, it's simple gameplay mechanics.
If being over equipped isn't removing challenge why in that other game do people want ilevels well above the minimum for the instance?
Going from unslotted greens to rank 9 Legion removes challenge since the base difficulty is tuned around the low end gear.
As for the balance between powers they'd have to knock the top powers down before raising anything up. Raising up the under performing powers without dialing back the over performing powers would lead to a whole new mess of over powered interactions.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Going from unslotted greens to rank 9 Legion removes challenge since the base difficulty is tuned around the low end gear.
It's not the gear that is removing the challenge, the issue is right here. As I said previously, the game is trying to balance a peculiar system. Until a complete power pass occurs, where EVERYTHING gets at least put on a similar tier, the issue of difficulty in the game will continue to be applied to the low end.
As for the balance between powers they'd have to knock the top powers down before raising anything up. Raising up the under performing powers without dialing back the over performing powers would lead to a whole new mess of over powered interactions.
Balance overall. I don't care if things get nerfed or buffed, but not having a baseline is what is killing it.
On Alert didn't help, with it's general buff pass to most things making DR eat some stats and magnify others. Thus why Dodge/Avoidance is so popular, it cuts out an entire percentage of damage. Same with Crit Chance/Severity, it's a percentage boost that really isn't affected by Cryptic math until the high numbers.
We're both agreeing on the game, it's way too easy. Most of us on the forums are saying that.
That being said? I hate how people throw Gravitar at us when anyone asks for harder content. How long ago was that released? And we were promised more along the same lines, but every time they mention some harder content, someone has to squeak and complain. We have *the one*, so yeah. They did throw us a bone. Next time you complain about how sto is getting so much more dev time, consider the fact that the all casual all the time crowd is getting just as much favoritism over the "give is a bit of a challenge" crowd as STO is getting over CO. And, sure, we'd pvp and just get our jollies that way, but wait. That's getting no love either, and is even more pointless. I think rebalancing the ATs is a good idea, and then giving us some *more* hard endgame is a great idea. And furthermore...
But what playable content was added before Gravitar? Alerts? So it's not like there has been this assmebly line of content and high level content has been frozen.
And the only thing I can think of that's been added after Gravitar is the Lemurian event, which is now going to be 35+.
So since the game was released, the major playable content release has been
-Vibora Bay (high level content)
-Comic Series, Adventure Packs (everyone)
-Alerts (everyone)
-Gravitar (high level content)
Are you running Legion gear with rank 9 mods on a FF with all the best powers and if so why are you complaining about others removing challenge when you have done the same thing yourself?
Here's the thing. All that stuff you mentioned? Why is it such a big deal? First off, Legion Gear isn't that big of an upgrade over Unity purps. Equipping Legion gear doesn't suddenly turn you into a god, and fact is if your build is one of the underperforming ones then Legion gear isn't really going to do squat for you.
Also, the idea that those people who want challenge should forgo in-game rewards has been brought up before, and is just as ludicrous now as it was then.
Furthermore, the idea that "npc numbers being bigger in relation to your numbers" is what difficulty is, is just ridiculous. Difficulty doesn't come from bigger numbers, you're thinking of tier-based raid progression; in tier-based raid progression, bigger numbers create a need for gear with bigger numbers. It's a binary situation; either your gear allows you to survive the numbers that are present in that tier and you live, or it doesn't and you die; you can't "skill" your way past this restriction. This doesn't make content more or less difficult, it simply gates it so players have to proceed through the tiers and can't skip ahead simply because they are more skilled.
That last part is important "they can't skip ahead simply because they are more skilled". Making numbers bigger actually does the opposite of promote skill-based gameplay, so telling people to gimp themselves to make more challenge is a fairly backwards thing to say.
The current situation that we have is the equivelant of some players being in Tier 8 gear, and some players being in Tier 1 gear; except that it's not your gear that determines what Tier you're in, it's your build. The problem here is that folks aren't willing to change their build just to "progress through the tiers", and they shouldn't have to either. The other problem is that a lot of those "Tier 8" people like their builds just as much as the Tier 1s do, and being told that they have to change their build to get challenge out of content is just as ludicrous as telling the "Tier 1" folks that they have to change their build to do more challenging content. Nobody should have to change their build for any reason other than that they want to.
The wildly unbalanced system we have right now prevents that from becoming a reality. Stop trying to convince anyone that content should either be for weak builders or strong builders. Stop dividing yourself along this artificial line, because when you take a close look at it you realize that the line is quite blurry, and the people that you think are on the other side of it from you are actually mostly straddling it right alongside you.
Everybody wants to build a cool hero. Everybody wants that hero to be strong.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The wildly unbalanced system we have right now prevents that from becoming a reality. Stop trying to convince anyone that content should either be for weak builders or strong builders. Stop dividing yourself along this artificial line, because when you take a close look at it you realize that the line is quite blurry, and the people that you think are on the other side of it from you are actually mostly straddling it right alongside you.
Everybody wants to build a cool hero. Everybody wants that hero to be strong.
The problem is most won't want to give up their power in the name of a balanced system and the exodus that would cause could be fatal to the game.
I didn't like the power creep of Set IOs in CoH and the wide gap they created between even IO'd characters, the purple sets would blow the others out of the water, even with their one set per character limit, to the extent people would take mule powers and slot them just to get for the set bonuses. To say I loathed the Incarnate system would be an understatement. Once they were in, there was no getting rid of them, just "dealing" with them, in content made just for Incarnates because non-Incarnates might as well just door sit as normal mobs would be rolling Judgemented out of existence before you could target a mob and Incarnate mobs would effectively one shot a normal player.
Basically, between gear and FF powers, the devs gave the players too much and can't take it back.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The problem is most won't want to give up their power in the name of a balanced system and the exodus that would cause could be fatal to the game.
[...]
Players only get butthurt when you nerf their chosen build into obsolescence; in a real balance pass, that doesn't happen. Fact is, no one would actually be giving up power, there would just be a whole lot more people who have some. If people leaving the game because their chosen build is weaker than someone elses is such a big problem... then why are there so many people with weaker builds still playing?
The "powerbuilders" I have talked to generally don't feel entitled to the power their builds give them, they see it merely as a side effect of their chosen playstyle ( min/maxing ) and the imbalance in the system. Many of them welcome a more balanced system, because it would make min/maxing a lot more interesting, both because there would be more choices to pick from, and because it wouldn't be as stupidly easy as it is now.
Sure, there are a few who think that because they selected obviously overpowered abilities that they have somehow reserved their uberleet seat ( even though most of them really just did what someone else told them was a good idea ), but lets face it they're irrational and we can't realistically attempt to predict the actions of irrational people.
You can't let obvious flaws sit because you're worried that some people might leave if you fix them; you have to fix those flaws, and bank on the fact that it will improve the quality of your game and that will keep people playing and possibly even draw in new players.
Basically, between gear and FF powers, the devs gave the players too much and can't take it back.
I think you're focusing too much on the few players from whom the devs might be taking a little. You should be focusing on the many players to whom the devs would be giving a lot.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Players only get butthurt when you nerf their chosen build into obsolescence;
Players get mad when they think they are doing 1 less damage on a 40,000 damage attack or when the spec that used to be just below them is now just above them with no change to themselves.
I think you're focusing too much on the few players from whom the devs might be taking a little. You should be focusing on the many players to whom the devs would be giving a lot.
The many that were happy would be drowned out by the handful of whiners. (Look at ED or the PvP changes and CoH.) These forums aren't WoW-toxic but it would only take the slightest of nudges. If the community seemed strong enough I'd say sod 'em all and re-balance, but between a balanced but shutdown game and a unbalanced but still active game I'll take the active option.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
So the last edition of Gravitar was for the non-elites then?
If this is meant to imply that thematic build's can't take gravitar then you'd be dead wrong.
She's the most readily available difficult boss in the game. If people want 3,000 questionite in 4 minutes, they better work for it. This means that a team of Infernoes can't beat her. Big deal. A team of organized, or even competent ATs could beat her, easily. All you'd need is a couple radiants and a behemoth, along with a soldier or scourge.
No, anyone, even non-elites, can build to beat Gravitar. The only hard bosses in this game are Terminator Giants and Multiple Shadow Colossi. That is hard. Fighting something that can hit for only 50k, with 9 other 40's? Not hard.
~~~The Tidal Tilde Wave of Seperation~~~
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
She's the most readily available difficult boss in the game. If people want 3,000 questionite in 4 minutes, they better work for it. This means that a team of Infernoes can't beat her. Big deal. A team of organized, or even competent ATs could beat her, easily. All you'd need is a couple radiants and a behemoth, along with a soldier or scourge.
I actually made a thread a while back that showed what all AT's could do to increase there survivability in the Gravitar fight.
Even though all of my in stasis toons still have double XP on them from the last visit to Witchcraft, I would delete one to make a new Inferno to join this group.
They would have to be called "The Fireflies" due to their short lives or it'd be a deal-breaker for me.
My character had all Rank 9 mods with Legion's gear.. but she was a telepath so .. doomed to fail
The one thing that Telepathy is really good for right now is illustrating my point. I'm hoping that when they finally do that Telepathy thing they keep mentioning then un-mentioning, it's just the start of a thorough and proper restructuring of the powers.
Players get mad when they think they are doing 1 less damage on a 40,000 damage attack or when the spec that used to be just below them is now just above them with no change to themselves.
The many that were happy would be drowned out by the handful of whiners. (Look at ED or the PvP changes and CoH.) These forums aren't WoW-toxic but it would only take the slightest of nudges. If the community seemed strong enough I'd say sod 'em all and re-balance, but between a balanced but shutdown game and a unbalanced but still active game I'll take the active option.
Those players won't stop playing though. Sure, they'll be mad... but then they'll adjust, and when they see all the new choices open to them, they'll be happy. Or they won't and they'll just be miserable, and they'll stop playing a game they were pretending to have fun with, but were really only having fun with because they were enjoying abusing the lack of balance to pretend they were better than other people. I won't be sad to those particular types go... but it also won't kill the game, if anything it will improve the community and make the game a bit more enjoyable for the rest of us.
And trust me when I say this, no one with the authority to shut the game down is checking if people are raging on the forums to decide whether they should shut the game down. If MMOs got shut down because people raged on the forums, then every mmo in existence would get shut down during beta.
Also, CO won't be getting shut down because a few people leave. If that was the case, it would have been shut down several times over. Aside from that, improving the game in such a way that allows players to better enjoy the game's core concept, customization/be the hero you want to be, can only hope to bring back players who had left, and give us current players more good things to say about the game when we talk to people, which leads to new players coming in.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Also, CO won't be getting shut down because a few people leave. If that was the case, it would have been shut down several times over. Aside from that, improving the game in such a way that allows players to better enjoy the game's core concept, customization/be the hero you want to be, can only hope to bring back players who had left, and give us current players more good things to say about the game when we talk to people, which leads to new players coming in.
All I can say to this is I hope you are right.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Here's the thing. All that stuff you mentioned? Why is it such a big deal? First off, Legion Gear isn't that big of an upgrade over Unity purps. Equipping Legion gear doesn't suddenly turn you into a god, and fact is if your build is one of the underperforming ones then Legion gear isn't really going to do squat for you.
Also, the idea that those people who want challenge should forgo in-game rewards has been brought up before, and is just as ludicrous now as it was then.
Furthermore, the idea that "npc numbers being bigger in relation to your numbers" is what difficulty is, is just ridiculous. Difficulty doesn't come from bigger numbers, you're thinking of tier-based raid progression; in tier-based raid progression, bigger numbers create a need for gear with bigger numbers. It's a binary situation; either your gear allows you to survive the numbers that are present in that tier and you live, or it doesn't and you die; you can't "skill" your way past this restriction. This doesn't make content more or less difficult, it simply gates it so players have to proceed through the tiers and can't skip ahead simply because they are more skilled.
That last part is important "they can't skip ahead simply because they are more skilled". Making numbers bigger actually does the opposite of promote skill-based gameplay, so telling people to gimp themselves to make more challenge is a fairly backwards thing to say.
The current situation that we have is the equivelant of some players being in Tier 8 gear, and some players being in Tier 1 gear; except that it's not your gear that determines what Tier you're in, it's your build. The problem here is that folks aren't willing to change their build just to "progress through the tiers", and they shouldn't have to either. The other problem is that a lot of those "Tier 8" people like their builds just as much as the Tier 1s do, and being told that they have to change their build to get challenge out of content is just as ludicrous as telling the "Tier 1" folks that they have to change their build to do more challenging content. Nobody should have to change their build for any reason other than that they want to.
The wildly unbalanced system we have right now prevents that from becoming a reality. Stop trying to convince anyone that content should either be for weak builders or strong builders. Stop dividing yourself along this artificial line, because when you take a close look at it you realize that the line is quite blurry, and the people that you think are on the other side of it from you are actually mostly straddling it right alongside you.
Everybody wants to build a cool hero. Everybody wants that hero to be strong.
Absolutely brilliant. It is posts like this one that make me sad that we do not have a like button available on these forums.
But what playable content was added before Gravitar? Alerts? So it's not like there has been this assmebly line of content and high level content has been frozen.
... Comic series? I hope you remember those and want more of em.
And the only thing I can think of that's been added after Gravitar is the Lemurian event, which is now going to be 35+.
nighthawk. Who sucked. The carrier mission, with **** rewards. And this one. Which, let's be honest, was great.
So since the game was released, the major playable content release has been
-Vibora Bay (high level content)
-Comic Series, Adventure Packs (everyone)
-Alerts (everyone)
-Gravitar (high level content)
- level 35 is not endgame.
- everyone can access it, and it has easy mode.
- sidekicks you to 30.
- keep banging that drum, for us. That's all we've got.
And what does elite do again? Tell me, you run elite recently? those harder missions sure do give better... Oh wait. Even the one that scales the mission to your team size doesn't do a damn thing. Why team again? ****, let's get rid of the avengers and just make the hulk movie 14 times. We all know heroes don't need to team up to conquer a challenge.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Polish, I think I get what you're going for here. "We get so little content, let's make it available for everyone". But, no. There's already a lot of gated content that everyone already had access to. They changed nothing about the quests, just the level.
I'm asking for moderately challenging endgame. We are not disagreeing in our goals. In a perfect world (heh) we should have both. Low level variety and good endgame.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
And what does elite do again? Tell me, you run elite recently?
I haven't, but mostly because I'm farming something and it just turns the enemies into giant hit bags. I get bored because it takes longer.
I'm actually fine with them adding another level above elite, but it seems like the Foundry would solve a lot of these issues, put the types of enemies you want into maps.
Polish, I think I get what you're going for here. "We get so little content, let's make it available for everyone". But, no. There's already a lot of gated content that everyone already had access to. They changed nothing about the quests, just the level.
I'm asking for moderately challenging endgame. We are not disagreeing in our goals. In a perfect world (heh) we should have both. Low level variety and good endgame.
My biggest issue with them changing the Lemurian Event was that is was advertised for everyone for weeks.... and then it changed to 35+. I have plenty of level 40, so it didn't effect me, I just thought it was a bad way to handle it. They could have at least split it into tiers.
My biggest issue with them changing the Lemurian Event was that is was advertised for everyone for weeks.... and then it changed to 35+. I have plenty of level 40, so it didn't effect me, I just thought it was a bad way to handle it. They could have at least split it into tiers.
I don't remember it ever being advertised "for everyone". The only prior reference to the actual Alert, not the preceding missions, was in the Jan 23rd website update, which said
2/21 is the planned start date of The Big One. Whatever the invaders' plans are, they're going to culminate in a giant Custom Alert. This will be balanced for high-powered characters and for vehicles, so don't get cocky. Millennium City might never be the same?
This mission was always planned to feel EPIC, but one of the biggest pieces of feedback we received was that the feeling of being de-leveled worked against that epic feeling. Even if the difficulty stayed the same, seeing lower damage numbers does affect how the mission feels.
This mission was always planned to feel EPIC, but one of the biggest pieces of feedback we received was that the feeling of being de-leveled worked against that epic feeling. Even if the difficulty stayed the same, seeing lower damage numbers does affect how the mission feels.
You can see your damage numbers? The only way I knew my attacks were firing was by the maintain bar.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Honestly? The easiest way to close the power gap right now might be to revert back to before On Alert and Free For All.
Why? Because the updates were effectively railroading superstats, which is the single worst idea in terms of keeping the power gap closed in a game allegedly all about customization.
For example, name one mechanical excuse for having PRE on a non-healer anymore. Pets used to scale off PRE (only until FFA) and it used to affect threat generation (even after), which really helped in that "having followers" and "not getting attacked so quickly" are both things people might consider when creating a character that has an incredible presence (nowadays, an incredible presence apparently just means you can kiss it to make it better).
Even worse, who hasn't done a melee char with "an EGO the size of a mountain"? A simple concept that makes sense - with an EGO the size of a mountain, what's better to really get up close so people can really see you're so awesome? It used to be decent enough if the char had enough DEX to actually benefit from crit severity. But it got nerfed into the ground so hard you couldn't dig it out with all the heavy machinery in the world thanks to the idiocy that is On Alert, because the stat now does literally nothing in melee (apparently, a real braggart only brags about killing things with sniper rifles).
Fortunately, the other six characteristics weren't affected as badly - still, intelligent re-design would've been about making superstats choice more flexible rather than less.
Comments
I do think it'd be good if they'd at least TRY to balance the stuff that's underperforming. Lately I've come to realize just how mediocre a lot of specializations are, which takes a lot of the "customization" options out of them.
That being said? I hate how people throw Gravitar at us when anyone asks for harder content. How long ago was that released? And we were promised more along the same lines, but every time they mention some harder content, someone has to squeak and complain. We have *the one*, so yeah. They did throw us a bone. Next time you complain about how sto is getting so much more dev time, consider the fact that the all casual all the time crowd is getting just as much favoritism over the "give is a bit of a challenge" crowd as STO is getting over CO. And, sure, we'd pvp and just get our jollies that way, but wait. That's getting no love either, and is even more pointless. I think rebalancing the ATs is a good idea, and then giving us some *more* hard endgame is a great idea. And furthermore...
This is the only mmo I have ever seen that has a player base which consistently and regularly endeavors to remove any challenge from the game, and fights any attempts to get the challenge level increased to something even an average player can't steamroll.
It's always the same pack of people that do it, and imo? Shame on you. There's a reason this game is in the tubes, and the laughable difficulty is part of it. Every. Single. Player. I have introduced to this game has left within a few days saying something like "Yeah, I like games that have some challenge to them. This game should have the fisher price label affixed to it". And note that nobody's asking for stupid-hard rebalancing. However, I haven't blocked with a few of my dps characters in months. Not once. Even my Cursed, she just simply never has to. That's indicative of a huge damn problem with this game.
And before anyone says "I wanna feel heroic"? Superman fought doomsday and had to claw his way back from the afterlife. Spiderman fights everyone on the planet, and regularly gets facerolled from time to time. Wolverine had the metal ripped out of his body and then had his claws broken. Bane broke the Bat. Every hero only becomes so after a struggle, so I officially don't wanna hear it. Let's put the nerf bats away for a little while and consider that maybe upping the difficulty from 2 to 4 would keep a few more players. After all, what does dying from time to time lose you? Some stars?
RIP Caine
Are you running Legion gear with rank 9 mods on a FF with all the best powers and if so why are you complaining about others removing challenge when you have done the same thing yourself?
Being equipped a certain way isn't removing challenge, it's simple gameplay mechanics.
When you say 'Best powers' on a Freeform, you are even agreeing with his first statement. There are massive gaps between powers, and especially on archetypes which are practically built-in with power gaps. (Both as a method to suggest subbing for freeform as well as letting you learn what roles are.)
People would love a harder challenge, but unfortunately that probably won't happen since the devs like to take in those on the lower end of the scale in gameplay ability as well. Until we have a full power pass that tries to make EVERYTHING more in line, things probably won't change very much aside from big sacks of hp and large target boxes.
Deliciously nutritious!
If being over equipped isn't removing challenge why in that other game do people want ilevels well above the minimum for the instance?
Going from unslotted greens to rank 9 Legion removes challenge since the base difficulty is tuned around the low end gear.
As for the balance between powers they'd have to knock the top powers down before raising anything up. Raising up the under performing powers without dialing back the over performing powers would lead to a whole new mess of over powered interactions.
...What other game? Context man! I can barely understand what you said here.
It's not the gear that is removing the challenge, the issue is right here. As I said previously, the game is trying to balance a peculiar system. Until a complete power pass occurs, where EVERYTHING gets at least put on a similar tier, the issue of difficulty in the game will continue to be applied to the low end.
Balance overall. I don't care if things get nerfed or buffed, but not having a baseline is what is killing it.
On Alert didn't help, with it's general buff pass to most things making DR eat some stats and magnify others. Thus why Dodge/Avoidance is so popular, it cuts out an entire percentage of damage. Same with Crit Chance/Severity, it's a percentage boost that really isn't affected by Cryptic math until the high numbers.
We're both agreeing on the game, it's way too easy. Most of us on the forums are saying that.
Deliciously nutritious!
But what playable content was added before Gravitar? Alerts? So it's not like there has been this assmebly line of content and high level content has been frozen.
And the only thing I can think of that's been added after Gravitar is the Lemurian event, which is now going to be 35+.
So since the game was released, the major playable content release has been
-Vibora Bay (high level content)
-Comic Series, Adventure Packs (everyone)
-Alerts (everyone)
-Gravitar (high level content)
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Caliga is dead, long live Caliga!
Here's the thing. All that stuff you mentioned? Why is it such a big deal? First off, Legion Gear isn't that big of an upgrade over Unity purps. Equipping Legion gear doesn't suddenly turn you into a god, and fact is if your build is one of the underperforming ones then Legion gear isn't really going to do squat for you.
Also, the idea that those people who want challenge should forgo in-game rewards has been brought up before, and is just as ludicrous now as it was then.
Furthermore, the idea that "npc numbers being bigger in relation to your numbers" is what difficulty is, is just ridiculous. Difficulty doesn't come from bigger numbers, you're thinking of tier-based raid progression; in tier-based raid progression, bigger numbers create a need for gear with bigger numbers. It's a binary situation; either your gear allows you to survive the numbers that are present in that tier and you live, or it doesn't and you die; you can't "skill" your way past this restriction. This doesn't make content more or less difficult, it simply gates it so players have to proceed through the tiers and can't skip ahead simply because they are more skilled.
That last part is important "they can't skip ahead simply because they are more skilled". Making numbers bigger actually does the opposite of promote skill-based gameplay, so telling people to gimp themselves to make more challenge is a fairly backwards thing to say.
The current situation that we have is the equivelant of some players being in Tier 8 gear, and some players being in Tier 1 gear; except that it's not your gear that determines what Tier you're in, it's your build. The problem here is that folks aren't willing to change their build just to "progress through the tiers", and they shouldn't have to either. The other problem is that a lot of those "Tier 8" people like their builds just as much as the Tier 1s do, and being told that they have to change their build to get challenge out of content is just as ludicrous as telling the "Tier 1" folks that they have to change their build to do more challenging content. Nobody should have to change their build for any reason other than that they want to.
The wildly unbalanced system we have right now prevents that from becoming a reality. Stop trying to convince anyone that content should either be for weak builders or strong builders. Stop dividing yourself along this artificial line, because when you take a close look at it you realize that the line is quite blurry, and the people that you think are on the other side of it from you are actually mostly straddling it right alongside you.
Everybody wants to build a cool hero. Everybody wants that hero to be strong.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
The problem is most won't want to give up their power in the name of a balanced system and the exodus that would cause could be fatal to the game.
I didn't like the power creep of Set IOs in CoH and the wide gap they created between even IO'd characters, the purple sets would blow the others out of the water, even with their one set per character limit, to the extent people would take mule powers and slot them just to get for the set bonuses. To say I loathed the Incarnate system would be an understatement. Once they were in, there was no getting rid of them, just "dealing" with them, in content made just for Incarnates because non-Incarnates might as well just door sit as normal mobs would be rolling Judgemented out of existence before you could target a mob and Incarnate mobs would effectively one shot a normal player.
Basically, between gear and FF powers, the devs gave the players too much and can't take it back.
Players only get butthurt when you nerf their chosen build into obsolescence; in a real balance pass, that doesn't happen. Fact is, no one would actually be giving up power, there would just be a whole lot more people who have some. If people leaving the game because their chosen build is weaker than someone elses is such a big problem... then why are there so many people with weaker builds still playing?
The "powerbuilders" I have talked to generally don't feel entitled to the power their builds give them, they see it merely as a side effect of their chosen playstyle ( min/maxing ) and the imbalance in the system. Many of them welcome a more balanced system, because it would make min/maxing a lot more interesting, both because there would be more choices to pick from, and because it wouldn't be as stupidly easy as it is now.
Sure, there are a few who think that because they selected obviously overpowered abilities that they have somehow reserved their uberleet seat ( even though most of them really just did what someone else told them was a good idea ), but lets face it they're irrational and we can't realistically attempt to predict the actions of irrational people.
You can't let obvious flaws sit because you're worried that some people might leave if you fix them; you have to fix those flaws, and bank on the fact that it will improve the quality of your game and that will keep people playing and possibly even draw in new players.
I think you're focusing too much on the few players from whom the devs might be taking a little. You should be focusing on the many players to whom the devs would be giving a lot.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I'm standing in for the yet-unreleased Caliga AF.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Players get mad when they think they are doing 1 less damage on a 40,000 damage attack or when the spec that used to be just below them is now just above them with no change to themselves.
The many that were happy would be drowned out by the handful of whiners. (Look at ED or the PvP changes and CoH.) These forums aren't WoW-toxic but it would only take the slightest of nudges. If the community seemed strong enough I'd say sod 'em all and re-balance, but between a balanced but shutdown game and a unbalanced but still active game I'll take the active option.
I know, right!
#TelepathyCOW
Did I do it right?
If this is meant to imply that thematic build's can't take gravitar then you'd be dead wrong.
She's the most readily available difficult boss in the game. If people want 3,000 questionite in 4 minutes, they better work for it. This means that a team of Infernoes can't beat her. Big deal. A team of organized, or even competent ATs could beat her, easily. All you'd need is a couple radiants and a behemoth, along with a soldier or scourge.
No, anyone, even non-elites, can build to beat Gravitar. The only hard bosses in this game are Terminator Giants and Multiple Shadow Colossi. That is hard. Fighting something that can hit for only 50k, with 9 other 40's? Not hard.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
That's Telekinesis, Smack. Ur doin it wrong. Here, leme show you.
Oh it's all the same powerset!
I actually made a thread a while back that showed what all AT's could do to increase there survivability in the Gravitar fight.
Even though all of my in stasis toons still have double XP on them from the last visit to Witchcraft, I would delete one to make a new Inferno to join this group.
They would have to be called "The Fireflies" due to their short lives or it'd be a deal-breaker for me.
Wait? Whaaaa..?
The one thing that Telepathy is really good for right now is illustrating my point. I'm hoping that when they finally do that Telepathy thing they keep mentioning then un-mentioning, it's just the start of a thorough and proper restructuring of the powers.
Those players won't stop playing though. Sure, they'll be mad... but then they'll adjust, and when they see all the new choices open to them, they'll be happy. Or they won't and they'll just be miserable, and they'll stop playing a game they were pretending to have fun with, but were really only having fun with because they were enjoying abusing the lack of balance to pretend they were better than other people. I won't be sad to those particular types go... but it also won't kill the game, if anything it will improve the community and make the game a bit more enjoyable for the rest of us.
And trust me when I say this, no one with the authority to shut the game down is checking if people are raging on the forums to decide whether they should shut the game down. If MMOs got shut down because people raged on the forums, then every mmo in existence would get shut down during beta.
Also, CO won't be getting shut down because a few people leave. If that was the case, it would have been shut down several times over. Aside from that, improving the game in such a way that allows players to better enjoy the game's core concept, customization/be the hero you want to be, can only hope to bring back players who had left, and give us current players more good things to say about the game when we talk to people, which leads to new players coming in.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
All I can say to this is I hope you are right.
Absolutely brilliant. It is posts like this one that make me sad that we do not have a like button available on these forums.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Man...
Agreed.
nighthawk. Who sucked. The carrier mission, with **** rewards. And this one. Which, let's be honest, was great.
- level 35 is not endgame.
- everyone can access it, and it has easy mode.
- sidekicks you to 30.
- keep banging that drum, for us. That's all we've got.
And what does elite do again? Tell me, you run elite recently? those harder missions sure do give better... Oh wait. Even the one that scales the mission to your team size doesn't do a damn thing. Why team again? ****, let's get rid of the avengers and just make the hulk movie 14 times. We all know heroes don't need to team up to conquer a challenge.
RIP Caine
I'm asking for moderately challenging endgame. We are not disagreeing in our goals. In a perfect world (heh) we should have both. Low level variety and good endgame.
RIP Caine
I'm actually fine with them adding another level above elite, but it seems like the Foundry would solve a lot of these issues, put the types of enemies you want into maps.
My biggest issue with them changing the Lemurian Event was that is was advertised for everyone for weeks.... and then it changed to 35+. I have plenty of level 40, so it didn't effect me, I just thought it was a bad way to handle it. They could have at least split it into tiers.
I don't remember it ever being advertised "for everyone". The only prior reference to the actual Alert, not the preceding missions, was in the Jan 23rd website update, which said
And later in Lordgar's Feb 27th forum post:
You can see your damage numbers? The only way I knew my attacks were firing was by the maintain bar.
I change my chat tab to Combat to see my damage numbers, so that when I see myself doing 0 damage I can start jamming the Block button
Those little missions were not changed to level 35+, and the Custom Alert was not advertised as being sub level 35 content.
It is still generally available as there is no in game limitation that excludes anyone from getting to level 35.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Why? Because the updates were effectively railroading superstats, which is the single worst idea in terms of keeping the power gap closed in a game allegedly all about customization.
For example, name one mechanical excuse for having PRE on a non-healer anymore. Pets used to scale off PRE (only until FFA) and it used to affect threat generation (even after), which really helped in that "having followers" and "not getting attacked so quickly" are both things people might consider when creating a character that has an incredible presence (nowadays, an incredible presence apparently just means you can kiss it to make it better).
Even worse, who hasn't done a melee char with "an EGO the size of a mountain"? A simple concept that makes sense - with an EGO the size of a mountain, what's better to really get up close so people can really see you're so awesome? It used to be decent enough if the char had enough DEX to actually benefit from crit severity. But it got nerfed into the ground so hard you couldn't dig it out with all the heavy machinery in the world thanks to the idiocy that is On Alert, because the stat now does literally nothing in melee (apparently, a real braggart only brags about killing things with sniper rifles).
Fortunately, the other six characteristics weren't affected as badly - still, intelligent re-design would've been about making superstats choice more flexible rather than less.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.