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New article about CO on Massively

gandalesgandales Posts: 340 Arc User
edited January 2013 in Champions Online Discussion
Since other articles from massively has been posted even on news, I think this one which is the final review from the former CoX reviewer (before moving to review DCUO) is a good reference.

The reviewer was imho kind, but still truthful to its analysis of CO. It is my sincere hope that PWE deciding people read this article and reflect a bit on how its treatment of CO has been.
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Comments

  • fudgemonstafudgemonsta Posts: 1,591 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Probably one of the main points in the article...
    and I get roughly nine million lockboxes every second as a drop.

    We get it. Lockboxes. But holy crap, I got a level 12 that has two hundred of the damned things.
    @HangingDeath

    Deliciously nutritious!
  • forutnefireforutnefire Posts: 477 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, this game has failed the Goldilocks theory for drop rates. Either it's ridiculously high or table-flippingly low.
  • danebangdanebang Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    At the lower levels, the game suffers from being a bit unclear in direction. The whole low-level experience has been reworked, but it's still not very engaging; it feels like the most rote parts of City of Heroes without the advantage of cell phone contacts.

    YES. There's no real guiding force for where you're supposed to be. You basically stumble around, find a contact, and hope the missions they're offering to you are in your range. You can use the crime computer, but it's still not a good indicator of what you're supposed to be focusing on. And if you focus too much on missions in one area, you'll be out of the level range for missions in other parts. Guess it's good theres choices though?

    It would help if they put the contact locations on the map. AFAIK they only show you notable contacts if you happen to be nearby them.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    COH refugee here, I've been dipping my toes in CO for a few months. Something I didn't quite agree with in the article:
    there's the fact that the game has no shortage of things to do when you get moving. You can lose track of your direction, yes, but that is not entirely a bad thing. Most games keep your options very narrow for a long stretch, but Champions Online opens the gates to the kingdom almost right away. If you feel like striking off into the wild blue yonder with alerts as soon as you hit level 10, you can go right ahead. And you can keep doing most of these things all the way through, like a version of CoH with even more options to go off and just grab content where you want.

    I too felt this way at first, tons to do. The trouble is that it's sort of an illusion- the game offers the appearance of lots of things to do, when really it's very limited in terms of content... At least compared to COH.

    I was hoping the Alerts would be like our "Death From Below" in COH at the worst, and like ANY TF at the best. They're so short that they don't even feel like content. No team bonding, just a couple brief seconds of entertainment that turns into brief seconds long eternal grind for rewards or XP.

    And once that grind is over, time for end game. Well there is no end game. The end game is getting primary gear from the UNTIL missions and then grinding Questionite for secondary gear, So that you can... Grind Mod drops or currency to buy mods. So that you can do that sweet end game content, right!?

    Well, no. Because there is no sweet end game content. You can grind out all the best stuff, or spend hundreds of dollars on the CS. To no end whatsoever. There are no raids, no Incarnate trials. You can't even set your mission difficulty up to multiple team members outside the powerhouse. And even without the best gear and mods, you can already beat the powerhouse on max settings with moderate stuff, and a decent concept free form build, on max settings.

    The comics and adventure packs are cool. But there's really no point in doing them other than to experience the content. I guess some people do them for Questionite. But there's a level 15ish Kevin Poe mission that drops Questionite boxes every run. You can outlevel the mission and then farm it at 10x the speed or more to cap a character's Q inventory. So basically, once you've done each comic and adventure pack once, there's no reason to do it again. The XP is better on alerts, but alerts get ridiculously boring after about a week.

    I guess if you like to PVP, this game can stay fun for a while. But after 3 months I cancelled my sub. It's like CO is designed to get old as quickly as possible. The storylines are actually pretty funny, so if you don't mind soloing and doing the same thing over and over on all your characters, that's a reason to stay. But there's basically one leveling path if you go that route.

    Free form is a great idea. I love that aspect of the game. The costume creator is awesome. I love that aspect of the game. The community.. All the people who play this game seem nice, but pessimistic, and rightfully so. I understand your complaints. I hope the dev's add some serious content.

    Anyways, this is just my two cents. Take it or leave it. Just giving my own opinions and I mean no offense.
  • danebangdanebang Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, I agree. They should really just open up and let the community start generating content for them. I'm sure they'd be open to it.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited January 2013

    I guess if you like to PVP, this game can stay fun for a while. But after 3 months I cancelled my sub. It's like CO is designed to get old as quickly as possible. The storylines are actually pretty funny, so if you don't mind soloing and doing the same thing over and over on all your characters, that's a reason to stay. But there's basically one leveling path if you go that route.


    There are several leveling paths--it seems you missed a lot of content.

    I leveled my first toon primarily through Canadian and Millenium City missions.

    I leveled my second toon primarily through Desert missions, UTC fights, and Monster Isle.

    I leveled my third toon using mostly Millenium City and Lemuria, with bits of other zones thrown in here and there.

    I have also leveled toons entirely using Alerts, and entirely using PvP -- though there isn't enough PvP anymore for that.

    I still haven't played the whole Vibora Bay zone.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    There are several leveling paths--it seems you missed a lot of content.

    I leveled my first toon primarily through Canadian and Millenium City missions.

    I leveled my second toon primarily through Desert missions, UTC fights, and Monster Isle.

    I leveled my third toon using mostly Millenium City and Lemuria, with bits of other zones thrown in here and there.

    I still haven't played the whole Vibora Bay zone.


    I suppose I failed to give the "read text and solo" leveling path a fair shake. I tried to mention that what I have done from it was funny (my first 40 was strictly read text/solo) but the fact remains that it's still quite archaic and yea- I know there are options between Canada and the Desert, but the missions are all basically the same generic quests. Reading the text is the only interesting thing they have going.

    To be fair, COH had this same archaic setup. But most of the game was not reliant upon read text and solo. There was actually stuff to do- and a reason to do it- with other players. I'm not comparing CO to COH in a sense that I feel x must live up to y standard, but rather on its own CO simply does not offer enough to do.

    When games like SWTOR with high quality voice acting, a huge wealth of story options, immersive que up team content and a freshly developed end game system to boot after hardly a year is F2P, well Champs is in trouble.

    What made COH awesome is that it was a niche audience game that could never be WoW, could never be SWTOR. And COH knew that. But it still strived to provide the best possible content, and a wealth of it nonetheless. CO is a halfhearted attempt to capture an audience that scarcely exists in the first place. COH worked it's arse off, kept innovating, and left the MMO world off better because of their work. CO cannot compete in the market as a whole, and it certainly can't take up the position and the crown that COH left vacant.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    When games like SWTOR with high quality voice acting, a huge wealth of story options, immersive que up team content and a freshly developed end game system to boot after hardly a year is F2P, well Champs is in trouble.

    .
    .
    .

    CO cannot compete in the market as a whole, and it certainly can't take up the position and the crown that COH left vacant.

    Fair points. CO must really make some big changes--add a new zone, with new ideas for missions.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • danebangdanebang Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I leveled my first toon primarily through Canadian and Millenium City missions.

    I leveled my second toon primarily through Desert missions, UTC fights, and Monster Isle.

    I leveled my third toon using mostly Millenium City and Lemuria, with bits of other zones thrown in here and there.

    I have also leveled toons entirely using Alerts, and entirely using PvP -- though there isn't enough PvP anymore for that.

    I still haven't played the whole Vibora Bay zone.

    I think that's the problem though. It should play something like this:

    Millenium City [1-15] --> Canada/Desert [15-25] --> Lemuria/Monster Isle [25-35]--> Vibora Bay [35-40]

    Not in that specific order, of course, but you get the idea. It's kinda odd that you basically have to choose which zone you'd prefer to level in while missing out on others.
  • spyralpegacyonspyralpegacyon Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    When games like SWTOR with high quality voice acting, a huge wealth of story options, immersive que up team content and a freshly developed end game system to boot after hardly a year is F2P, well Champs is in trouble.

    Any belief I had in 'story options' and 'immersive team content' over at yonder Olde Republic was deader than Uncle Owen by level 20.
    What made COH awesome is that it was a niche audience game that could never be WoW, could never be SWTOR. And COH knew that. But it still strived to provide the best possible content, and a wealth of it nonetheless. CO is a halfhearted attempt to capture an audience that scarcely exists in the first place. COH worked it's arse off, kept innovating, and left the MMO world off better because of their work. CO cannot compete in the market as a whole, and it certainly can't take up the position and the crown that COH left vacant.

    COH had eight years and significant developer support for most of that period of time. COH, unfortunately, still couldn't generate enough money to justify its continued existence - for the NCSoft definition of 'enough'.

    CO has three years and a different monetization model. We were left with bare-bones development when it turned out we weren't nearly as eager to spend like drunk sailors like the Trekkies over at STO.

    I'm still optimistic they could make more money with CO with more development, but I don't think its anything simple like 'more zones'. We'd have to start with the Foundry and start thinking from there.
    tumblr_moni7tHVoq1rzu2xzo1_500.gif
  • spyralpegacyonspyralpegacyon Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    danebang wrote: »
    I think that's the problem though. It should play something like this:

    Millenium City [1-15] --> Canada/Desert [15-25] --> Lemuria/Monster Isle [25-35]--> Vibora Bay [35-40]

    Not in that specific order, of course, but you get the idea. It's kinda odd that you basically have to choose which zone you'd prefer to level in while missing out on others.

    To be honest, I like the variety as well as the Alert option at higher levels. I don't feel like I have to slog through the Gadroon forest or the Self-Inflicted Vibora Bay Crisis on my way to 40.
    tumblr_moni7tHVoq1rzu2xzo1_500.gif
  • darqauradarqaura Posts: 169 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Any belief I had in 'story options' and 'immersive team content' over at yonder Olde Republic was deader than Uncle Owen by level 20.



    COH had eight years and significant developer support for most of that period of time. COH, unfortunately, still couldn't generate enough money to justify its continued existence - for the NCSoft definition of 'enough'.

    CO has three years and a different monetization model. We were left with bare-bones development when it turned out we weren't nearly as eager to spend like drunk sailors like the Trekkies over at STO.

    I'm still optimistic they could make more money with CO with more development, but I don't think its anything simple like 'more zones'. We'd have to start with the Foundry and start thinking from there.

    UGC won't save the game if it has non existent additional developer content.

    You need a reason for folks to continuously roll alts. Alerts aren't enough reason to do so.

    If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
  • spyralpegacyonspyralpegacyon Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    darqaura2 wrote: »
    UGC won't save the game if it has non existent additional developer content.

    Why? Foundry gets you over the first hump: Now you have a continual feed of more instances to do and more reasons to leave the RenCen or skip past the leveling parts you want to avoid.
    You need a reason for folks to continuously roll alts. Alerts aren't enough reason to do so.

    Hence the Foundry. It also gives you something of an endgame for all your old alts too.
    tumblr_moni7tHVoq1rzu2xzo1_500.gif
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Any belief I had in 'story options' and 'immersive team content' over at yonder Olde Republic was deader than Uncle Owen by level 20.

    It's important to frame the negative TOR whiplash in context. When people say "TOR is failing" they mean compared to WoW. They don't mean TOR IS FAILING. On a bad day I wouldn't be surprised if TOR had 5 times the playerbase as CO, and that might even be conservative. I know this isn't a TOR forum and so this might seem out of place, but it's a common logical failing that I see when this conversation happens in general.
    COH had eight years and significant developer support for most of that period of time. COH, unfortunately, still couldn't generate enough money to justify its continued existence - for the NCSoft definition of 'enough'.

    I agree with you on the time issue- CO could absolutely be where COH was 5 years from now, but it isn't even making an effort to be. The fundamentals of the game are ABSOLUTELY good enough to be there, but for whatever reason it isn't happening. It's an exercise in stagnation and milking what's left of the cow as far as I can see. I have a vested interest in CO as a former COH player. I WANT this game to be worth subbing to. But unfortunately as of now, it isn't, and it's not even making an effort to be.

    As per the financial viability of COH. Well, COH never lost money. It also went out with integrity. The game stayed profitable, but apparently just not profitable enough for NCSoft. I am just grateful that it never lowered itself to whoring lockboxes as content and offering free paragon points for downloading Malware on sketchy survey sites. At least COH went out with dignity.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    danebang wrote: »
    YES. There's no real guiding force for where you're supposed to be. You basically stumble around, find a contact, and hope the missions they're offering to you are in your range. You can use the crime computer, but it's still not a good indicator of what you're supposed to be focusing on. And if you focus too much on missions in one area, you'll be out of the level range for missions in other parts. Guess it's good theres choices though?

    It would help if they put the contact locations on the map. AFAIK they only show you notable contacts if you happen to be nearby them.

    They practically hold you by the hand for showing you where to go. One contact leads inevitably to the next, right from the beginning of the game. There are a few through out the game that take some exploring, but not many. And there's always the crime computer, and wikis for things like that. Plus you never level out of missions, you can be level 40 and still take on level 6 missions. Plus it's always nice to be a higher level as that makes the missions you're doing that much easier. Also if you don't want missions to be easy, just up the difficulty. And yes it is good that there are choices, seeing as how you run through the beginning area a couple of times and you get bored with it quickly. It's also good because back in the day, you practically had to do all of the missions to get to level 40, and there were huge gaps of content between levels. Now with repeatable missions and new areas, I've been able to skip Lemuria and Vibora Bay almost completely. Though I do like Vibora Bay, Lemuria has always been terrible.

    The number one problem with CO (other than bugs which I don't find to be game breaking) is that there is no end game content. If they had that, I'm sure that CO would dominate in the MMO world.
  • visionstorm01visionstorm01 Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Why? Foundry gets you over the first hump: Now you have a continual feed of more instances to do and more reasons to leave the RenCen or skip past the leveling parts you want to avoid.

    UGC has never "saved" any MMO that's had it as an add-on to "real" developer made content (STO already has a Foundry yet people still complain about content there). It may provide additional stuff for some people (that are really into UGC) to do, but that's the exception not the norm--not everybody is interested in UGC and we're interested in it here primarily because we're so starved for content we're make our own if that's what it takes--so you can't really rely on just UGC alone to save a game.

    Games like NWN1 were successful with UGC but that game provided full on UGC options, with the ability to build persistent worlds hosted on private servers with their own rules (both game rules, and rules of conduct and such) and totally customize the game--including giving the community the power to build their own game assets like new tile sets, costume (amor) bits and such, and even modify the game mechanics, adding new races or classes and special rules, etc. The Foundry will provide none of that here--it will just be a tack on feature that grants us the ability to make new missions that may or may not be as good as running regular missions, and will likely be worse (both, in terms of the story/content, and in terms of rewards) [/end].
    Hence the Foundry. It also gives you something of an endgame for all your old alts too.

    Doing random UGC missions for the sake of doing them is not endgame. "Endgame" is content that gives you a reason to keep playing level capped toons.
    ____________________________
  • wingedkagoutiwingedkagouti Posts: 538 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Well, no. Because there is no sweet end game content. You can grind out all the best stuff, or spend hundreds of dollars on the CS. To no end whatsoever. There are no raids, no Incarnate trials. You can't even set your mission difficulty up to multiple team members outside the powerhouse.
    So you're soloing the various Lairs on Elite?

    While the difficulty setting is somewhat hidden (right-click your own portrait, the leader of a team picks the team difficulty), the Lairs all have storylines leading up to them, so missing them means you've missed a decent amount of content.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It's important to frame the negative TOR whiplash in context. When people say "TOR is failing" they mean compared to WoW. They don't mean TOR IS FAILING. On a bad day I wouldn't be surprised if TOR had 5 times the playerbase as CO, and that might even be conservative. I know this isn't a TOR forum and so this might seem out of place, but it's a common logical failing that I see when this conversation happens in general.


    Its not necessarily a logical failing. Having 5 times the player base of CO does not mean that TOR is recouping its reportedly astronomical productions costs. TOR might be failing, and might not. An argument that it isn't is every bit as speculative as one that it is.



    I agree with you on the time issue- CO could absolutely be where COH was 5 years from now, but it isn't even making an effort to be. The fundamentals of the game are ABSOLUTELY good enough to be there, but for whatever reason it isn't happening. It's an exercise in stagnation and milking what's left of the cow as far as I can see. I have a vested interest in CO as a former COH player. I WANT this game to be worth subbing to. But unfortunately as of now, it isn't, and it's not even making an effort to be.

    As per the financial viability of COH. Well, COH never lost money. It also went out with integrity. The game stayed profitable, but apparently just not profitable enough for NCSoft. I am just grateful that it never lowered itself to whoring lockboxes as content and offering free paragon points for downloading Malware on sketchy survey sites. At least COH went out with dignity.

    And CO is not offering free Zen for downloading malware on sketchy survey sites either. That is the publisher, not the game. If that is your definition of going out with dignity then its not COH you should be thanking, but NCsoft. They are the ones who opted not to do the things you comment on, not COH.

    Responses above.






    Overall decent article. I think that, had the reviewer gone three months rather than one he might have different commentary about how much there is to do, but otherwise reasonable.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • danebangdanebang Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Games like NWN1 were successful with UGC but that game provided full on UGC options, .....totally customize the game--including giving the community the power to build their own game assets like new tile sets, costume (armor) bits and such[/end].

    Do you think there's any chance we could do that for CO if we asked? I mean, if the dev team is truly that small it seems to me like they'd welcome some UGC like the assets you mention here.
  • thalast1thalast1 Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    danebang wrote: »
    Do you think there's any chance we could do that for CO if we asked? I mean, if the dev team is truly that small it seems to me like they'd welcome some UGC like the assets you mention here.

    Be realistic, that will never come to champions, and even if it did it wouldn't be enough to save this game.

    Cryptic should send the massively reviewer a fruit basket.
    They were extremely kind, nearing the point of obfuscation.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Luckily, the new Marvel game isn't going to be a real competitor to CO.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • thalast1thalast1 Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Luckily, the new Marvel game isn't going to be a real competitor to CO.

    At this point any game genre that gets content updates and doesn't have a horrid cash shop implementation is a competitor to Champions, IMO.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    To some extent, yes--good MMOs are competitors. On the other hand, if CO folded, I would go back to DCUO--not nearly as good a game, but I really only want to play a supers MMO.

    CO and DCUO are the only ones around.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • kojirohellfirekojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    If CO folded, I really have no idea where I'd go. DCUO's far too restrictive in its options and MUO? Ha, don't make me laugh.

    I'd likely quit MMOs at that point.
  • prootwaddleprootwaddle Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    To be honest, I like the variety as well as the Alert option at higher levels. I don't feel like I have to slog through the Gadroon forest or the Self-Inflicted Vibora Bay Crisis on my way to 40.

    Couldn't agree more.

    In fact with CO you can actually explore a zone, find some interesting goons to fight and cast around for a local contact to give you quests to fight them.

    When I tried that in EQ2 I was slaughtered for wandering off the on-the-rails Quest track and in a tawdry MMO with assault rifles of healing I just got bored due to a lack of interesting places to explore.

    Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.

    A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    So you're soloing the various Lairs on Elite?

    While the difficulty setting is somewhat hidden (right-click your own portrait, the leader of a team picks the team difficulty), the Lairs all have storylines leading up to them, so missing them means you've missed a decent amount of content.

    Hey, I feel like you're sort of nitpicking my argument. I give a lot of credit to you and everyone else who have apparently stuck to this game enough to feel the need to rationalize its structure- but that doesn't change the logical structure of rationalization- if you're rationalizing, you're rationalizing.

    The difficulty slider comment was not in regards to setting enemy difficulty- we had this in COH as a portion of our difficulty slider. The second portion of said slider was setting quantity of enemies. So, in CO speak, you could solo Elitex5 (5 is the team cap here, I believe- I might be off, but you get the point.)

    In COH, this meant that at the very least, the purposes of having a maximum, high end build could serve a purpose of soloing instanced missions (much more commonplace in COH) on +4x8 difficulty. Incidentally, doing so could actually provide worthwhile rewards for your time and your trouble. In CO, this isn't an option. In the powerhouse it is, but even without all the best gear and mods, and even without a properly min/maxed build, you can already crank the powerhouse all the way up and clear it out. I'm speaking from experience on this one. The point being that it really isn't even an accomplishment. You can min/max a build here and see (generously speaking) a fraction of the positive results that min/maxing provided in COH. Really, in the MAJORITY of games, min/maxing actually serves a tangible purpose and benefit to your character or account as a whole. Here, not so much. But I digress.

    As for lairs, look, that's great. I think the funniest thing on that front is, why do it at all? I never see teams forming at the velocity of the various TF's and trials forming in COH. Is this a failing in quality of content, or substance of rewards? A combination of both perhaps? As you mention, it could be a question of overly stringent prerequisites. These strike me as a rather desolate section of an already desolate game, which is all the more depressing.

    In any case, I hate to be so combative. I think it's important to remind ourselves as often as possible during these more heated conversations that we're ultimately all on the same side. We all want this game to be good. We all obviously think it has the potential to be good. The problem is that the game in its current incarnation simply isn't very good.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    thalast1 wrote: »

    As for lairs, look, that's great. I think the funniest thing on that front is, why do it at all? I never see teams forming at the velocity of the various TF's and trials forming in COH. Is this a failing in quality of content, or substance of rewards? A combination of both perhaps? As you mention, it could be a question of overly stringent prerequisites. These strike me as a rather desolate section of an already desolate game, which is all the more depressing.


    Teams don't form fast on CO because the majority of the game can be easily soloed.

    That the game is easily soloed is a great strength of CO.

    It is also a great weakness of CO.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Unfortunately I didn't catch the name of the individual I'm quoting here. For future reference, it's best to simply apply an end quote tag to the person(s) you're quoting, place your response and then open a new quote tag in order to prompt conversational viability. It's hard to respond to you in this copy/paste cob format, and leaves the illusion of your not wanting your comment to be responded to. Just a thought.

    Its not necessarily a logical failing. Having 5 times the player base of CO does not mean that TOR is recouping its reportedly astronomical productions costs. TOR might be failing, and might not. An argument that it isn't is every bit as speculative as one that it is.

    TOR already recouped its own investment. The only question is sustaining viability, and the output of content keeping up with player demand (and subsequent amount of players.) The subscription base has depleted a bit from the initial kickoff, but it's still quite healthy. Bioware have had layoffs which is to be expected after a release anyways- they're already pushing a level cap raising expansion after just a year of the game existing.

    They have a fleshed out end game, around 8 completely unique leveling paths with full voice acting, queable story-driven dungeons with the same production value and PVP for those who are interested. Unfortunately SWTOR is already at least twice as developed as CO after only a third of the time. Granted their sub base helps, but the quality of content and sub base are directly and unequivocally tied to one another. This is how MMO's work.
    And CO is not offering free Zen for downloading malware on sketchy survey sites either. That is the publisher, not the game. If that is your definition of going out with dignity then its not COH you should be thanking, but NCsoft. They are the ones who opted not to do the things you comment on, not COH.

    I suppose you could sum that up with "NCSoft is classier than PW." It's a trashy move regardless, very sketchy and a business that makes these types of decisions (marketing Malware to its customers) is not one likely to inspire confidence. I believe CO was at Atari initially, and Marvel previously. For whatever reason, it seems that the game failed to succeed in an ultimately much less dodgy environment. I'm not sure why that is, but the fact remains that those in charge of CO were willing to let their game stoop this low. I was simply pointing out that COH never suffered from this failure of decency.
  • underchickenunderchicken Posts: 259 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Luckily, the new Marvel game isn't going to be a real competitor to CO.

    LoL, it's funny. CO has turned me off so much in the last few months that I've already moved on to other things. I was actually considering giving Marvel Heroes a shot when it released, even without having a character creator(this is how much CO has depressed me.) So I checked out site and watched a few vids. WOW, they are making it a click to move game....seriously:confused: They REALLY don't have a clue about what folks are looking for in a supers mmo over there. You'd think based on the game looking exactly like the Ultimate Alliance series that you'd at least be able to use a controller for it, but apparently they are opting to turn away those players right from the start. It should be interesting watching that game crash and burn, I wonder how long it will take. I give it 2 months.:tongue:
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Marvel Online is a diablo-style, no-customization game.

    You can play on a team with 5 Deadpools at the same time . . .
    ___________________________________________________________

    Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    "Well, all right, that's not entirely true, but the point is that nothing is grotesquely overpowered or underpowered. In capable hands, you can produce all sorts of characters and make them entirely viable." - Mr Mild Mannered Reporter

    Clearly this reporter hasnt EVER compared Telepathy to Martial Arts.

    But overall it looks like a nice review.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    TOR already recouped its own investment.

    I wasn't aware of that. Do you have any links regarding TOR's revenue to date ?

    The only question is sustaining viability, and the output of content keeping up with player demand (and subsequent amount of players.) The subscription base has depleted a bit from the initial kickoff, but it's still quite healthy. Bioware have had layoffs which is to be expected after a release anyways- they're already pushing a level cap raising expansion after just a year of the game existing.

    SWTOR is already at least twice as developed as CO after only a third of the time. Granted their sub base helps, but the quality of content and sub base are directly and unequivocally tied to one another. This is how MMO's work.

    That is as at least as likely a function of the IP as it is the quality of the content. Quality of product and popularity are not inherently linked, and never have been, in consumer goods. That is not to say that a quality product cannot be popular, but rather that quality does not determine popularity.

    those in charge of CO were willing to let their game stoop this low.

    I remain unconvinced that this is an accurate representation of what has occurred in this regard. The banners, ads, malware sites, etc all were a part of PWE business model prior to CO's acquisition. CO did not bring these things to the table but rather was essentially plugged into an existing framework where those questionable practices were already in place. This isn't a matter of the game stooping this low.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    That is as at least as likely a function of the IP as it is the quality of the content. Quality of product and popularity are not inherently linked, and never have been, in consumer goods. That is not to say that a quality product cannot be popular, but rather that quality does not determine popularity.

    Ashen is right on the money with that. Look at Dark age of Camelot. I'd say it has half the playerbase CO has yet can still make a profit and still keep the updates coming . It isnt popular but its a quality product.
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
    Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
    They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
    I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The game also can't quite decide whether it wants to be action-based or not. You've got the blocking mechanic, which is very active; you also have the overall combat structure, which is much closer to a traditional format. It feels like both are jockeying for position somewhat uncomfortably.

    I think it's a decent, well-balanced article, but I'm not sure I agree with the quoted part of it. If I assume correctly it seems that the writer has the opinion that "action-based" combat shouldn't consist of targetting for it (traditional format?) to be considered action-based and that just because there is reflex-based blocking involved, it works against it. I think the combat system of the game works very well without feeling uncomfortable in any way, apart from minor targetting issues that can be improved with the right targetting settings. It can be a hybrid system instead of conforming to a traditional system and still provide a worthwhile action gameplay experience.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    I wasn't aware of that. Do you have any links regarding TOR's revenue to date ?

    Subs dipped below 1 mil in July, with break even point being 500 mil at that point in time. All signs point to the game paying for itself or being so close to having paid for itself already, after about a year that whether they're technically there or not could be a cause of very tedious debate but ultimately not a point of concern. This is probably the highest production value in an MMO, ever- not to mention the IP licensing on top of the quality of the game. Which you seem to be getting at..
    That is as at least as likely a function of the IP as it is the quality of the content. Quality of product and popularity are not inherently linked, and never have been, in consumer goods. That is not to say that a quality product cannot be popular, but rather that quality does not determine popularity.

    The easiest and most universally relevant answer I can give here is Star Trek. STO is nowhere near as acclaimed or participated in as SWTOR. Now, I could default to my customary self righteous nerd position (Nyeh nyeh, Star Wars>Star Trek :p) but the fact is that IP alone doesn't sell a game. Champions Online had a recognizable IP and yet City of Heroes, a completely imagined and unique IP, trumped it indisputably in just about every respect.

    IP's don't sell themselves in the MMO world. The vast majority of people had no idea what in the hell the ******** World was before WoW came along. And yet, WoW, is WoW. Case/point. Edit: Point ultimately proved by the fact that compounding the words War and Craft on these forums is apparently against the rules. ;)
    I remain unconvinced that this is an accurate representation of what has occurred in this regard. The banners, ads, malware sites, etc all were a part of PWE business model prior to CO's acquisition. CO did not bring these things to the table but rather was essentially plugged into an existing framework where those questionable practices were already in place. This isn't a matter of the game stooping this low.

    The point being that whomever was in charge of CO was willing to allow their game to be associated to said practices. They brought their loyal subscribers with them, only to inevitably put you all in a position where your computers and livlihood were potentially at risk- not to mention all the new and more casual players lured in by the F2P model. This is vulture capitalism at its worst as far as I'm concerned, and it speaks volumes to me personally about the folks in charge of the game and their integrity (or lack thereof.)
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Subs dipped below 1 mil in July, with break even point being 500 mil at that point in time. All signs point to the game paying for itself or being so close to having paid for itself already, after about a year that whether they're technically there or not could be a cause of very tedious debate but ultimately not a point of concern. This is probably the highest production value in an MMO, ever- not to mention the IP licensing on top of the quality of the game. Which you seem to be getting at..


    The easiest and most universally relevant answer I can give here is Star Trek. STO is nowhere near as acclaimed or participated in as SWTOR. Now, I could default to my customary self righteous nerd position (Nyeh nyeh, Star Wars>Star Trek :p) but the fact is that IP alone doesn't sell a game. Champions Online had a recognizable IP and yet City of Heroes, a completely imagined and unique IP, trumped it indisputably in just about every respect.

    IP's don't sell themselves in the MMO world. The vast majority of people had no idea what in the hell the ******** World was before WoW came along. And yet, WoW, is WoW. Case/point. Edit: Point ultimately proved by the fact that compounding the words War and Craft on these forums is apparently against the rules. ;)


    The point being that whomever was in charge of CO was willing to allow their game to be associated to said practices. They brought their loyal subscribers with them, only to inevitably put you all in a position where your computers and livlihood were potentially at risk- not to mention all the new and more casual players lured in by the F2P model. This is vulture capitalism at its worst as far as I'm concerned, and it speaks volumes to me personally about the folks in charge of the game and their integrity (or lack thereof.)

    TBH I never heard of Champions as an IP before I played Champions Online, and Blizzard had built a brand name for themselves and their IPs in computer gaming circles before WoW, like with WC3 and its mods like DotA and Tower Defense, and Starcraft before that.

    To say the vast majority of people hadn't heard of the WC franchise before WoW may be accurate, but I think the people that mattered - the bleeding edge/hardcore computer gamers, would very likely have been familiar with it before WoW.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    selphea wrote: »
    TBH I never heard of Champions as an IP before I played Champions Online, and Blizzard had built a brand name for themselves and their IPs in computer gaming circles before WoW, like with WC3 and its mods like DotA and Tower Defense, and Starcraft before that.

    To say the vast majority of people hadn't heard of the WC franchise before WoW may be accurate, but I think the people that mattered - the bleeding edge/hardcore computer gamers, would very likely have been familiar with it before WoW.

    Compare the people who have heard of Star Trek to the people who had heard of the WoW universe, pre WoW... And even current era, after the WoW boom. Compare the amount of people who LIKED the former out of all those who had heard of them. Star Trek wins. And yet, here we are.

    IP does NOT sell a game.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Subs dipped below 1 mil in July, with break even point being 500 mil at that point in time. All signs point to the game paying for itself or being so close to having paid for itself already, after about a year that whether they're technically there or not could be a cause of very tedious debate but ultimately not a point of concern. This is probably the highest production value in an MMO, ever- not to mention the IP licensing on top of the quality of the game. Which you seem to be getting at..

    Sub numbers are impressive, but they still give no indication of EA/Bioware already breaking even without having access to their actual revenue info and without them officially declaring it so. I did a simple google search on "TOR's development cost" and I got estimate figures between 80 to 500 million from unofficial sources, so to say that they've actually broke even is nothing more than assumption.
  • intrinsicmanintrinsicman Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    jennymachx wrote: »
    Sub numbers are impressive, but they still give no indication of them already breaking even without having access to their actual revenue info and without them officially declaring it so. I did a simple google search on "TOR's development cost" and I got estimate figures between 80 to 500 million from unofficial sources, so to say that they've actually broke even is nothing more than assumption.

    Folks much more privileged and information savvy than I have run the numbers. Feel free to google it- TOR has either paid for itself by now or is on the brink of doing so after a year. The only real question is viability- how many development dollars they spend on the game relative to their playerbase and what they need to do to keep on the trajectory of profitability. The F2P model, if history has taught us anything, will more than sustain a healthy development cycle while encouraging the needed player investment under said model to keep the game profitable.

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-cost-200-million-to-develop-6348959

    TOR seems to have cost around $200 million. The high estimates are always best to account for. After one year, charging $15/mo at 1 million subs/year, that's $180,000,000. Now add box costs on top of that. I believe the box was around $60. So add $60,000,000. That alone gives TOR $40 mil profit.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Compare the people who have heard of Star Trek to the people who had heard of the WoW universe, pre WoW... And even current era, after the WoW boom. Compare the amount of people who LIKED the former out of all those who had heard of them. Star Trek wins. And yet, here we are.

    IP does NOT sell a game.

    As I said, more people, but are they the right people? Star Trek as a TV series hit its peak in the early 90s. Would the average Star Trek viewer in the early 90s fit the profile of an MMO player today? I would surmise that while there may be some outliers who will spend a lot of time and money on STO, the majority of Star Trek fans are not likely to play a Star Trek MMO beyond an F2P/Casual level due to lifestyle constraints like work/family commitments, regardless of the game's quality.

    In contrast, an IP based on a more recent franchise like Harry Potter would probably be more likely to generate interest.

    That said, while IP may pique the interest of existing fans in the short term, I agree that to maintain a stable playerbase grow an MMO over the long term requires more than IP alone.
  • spyralpegacyonspyralpegacyon Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    After one year, charging $15/mo at 1 million subs/year, that's $180,000,000. Now add box costs on top of that. I believe the box was around $60. So add $60,000,000. That alone gives TOR $40 mil profit.

    a.) They didn't have 1 million subs for the whole year. They were well under a million as of early summer, if I remember right. Hence, F2P.

    b.) EAware doesn't get all of the $60 per box.

    c.) Why are we discussing this here?
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  • spyralpegacyonspyralpegacyon Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Compare the people who have heard of Star Trek to the people who had heard of the WoW universe, pre WoW... And even current era, after the WoW boom. Compare the amount of people who LIKED the former out of all those who had heard of them. Star Trek wins. And yet, here we are.

    P does NOT sell a game.[/QUOTE]

    Do you even realize Cryptic is running with at least 50 devs on staff for STO? I can't shake a phaser without getting another '[email protected] has won a Chekov-class dinghy' popup from a lockbox winner. There's plenty of STO fans and they're paying good money for shinies that come stamped 'United Federation of Planets' or 'Klingon Empire'. Good enough money for Cryptic to throw a lot more money into STO's development than they are CO. Good money they wouldn't be paying if they were stamped 'Galaxy Hero Alliance'.
    tumblr_moni7tHVoq1rzu2xzo1_500.gif
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Subs dipped below 1 mil in July, with break even point being 500 mil at that point in time. All signs point to the game paying for itself or being so close to having paid for itself already, after about a year that whether they're technically there or not could be a cause of very tedious debate but ultimately not a point of concern. This is probably the highest production value in an MMO, ever- not to mention the IP licensing on top of the quality of the game. Which you seem to be getting at..

    I am not saying that SWTOR has not recouped its development costs, but you claim that it has as a fact. Do you have anything at all other than your say so that this is indeed factual ?

    As to the quality of TOR as a game ? Very low in my opinion. But others are of course entitled to their opinion. I was sorely disappointed in the game (as I am a Starwars > Star Trek nerd myself).

    The easiest and most universally relevant answer I can give here is Star Trek. STO is nowhere near as acclaimed or participated in as SWTOR. Now, I could default to my customary self righteous nerd position (Nyeh nyeh, Star Wars>Star Trek :p) but the fact is that IP alone doesn't sell a game. Champions Online had a recognizable IP and yet City of Heroes, a completely imagined and unique IP, trumped it indisputably in just about every respect.

    SWTOR was marketed heavily. STO...not so much. Cryptic is also much less well branded than is Bioware. Compare the number of PC titles shipped by Bioware, units sold, etc compared to Cryptic. At the time STO was in development/being shipped Cryptic had produced two games. Compared to Bioware's resume at the time TOR was being developed/shipped Cryptic was a no name. I, for example, had never even heard of Cryptic when I discovered that a Champions MMO was being developed. I have never played a Bioware game, but have some knowledge of them as a company and of their products.

    Ultimately I am not claiming that IP alone will produce a successful MMO, but then again TOR's quality was an unknown factor when it began selling millions of boxes. In fact it had issues that impacted perception of the game's quality at the time of launch. If people were buying the game by the hundreds of thousands of boxes before the quality of the game could be established...what was selling it ?

    Also, for what it is worth, Star Wars, as a brand, has generated some seven times the revenue as Star Trek (in less time). This can be considered a (somewhat limited) measure of the draw of the IP.

    Champions is a pen and paper game with a following so small that it could not support a staff greater than one part timer writer/owner. Calling it a recognizable IP is questionable at best.
    IP's don't sell themselves in the MMO world. The vast majority of people had no idea what in the hell the ******** World was before WoW came along. And yet, WoW, is WoW. Case/point. Edit: Point ultimately proved by the fact that compounding the words War and Craft on these forums is apparently against the rules. ;)

    War*Craft was a massively successful computer game. The MMO built on that. The vast majority of people likely still do not know what the hell War*craft world is. Only as MMOs have become more mainstream has general, non gaming, public knowledge of that particular title increased.

    The point being that whomever was in charge of CO was willing to allow their game to be associated to said practices. They brought their loyal subscribers with them,

    Willingness had nothing to do with it. When a company is purchased teh individual projects within that company do not get veto power over the business practices of the new owners.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    If CO folded, I really have no idea where I'd go. DCUO's far too restrictive in its options and MUO? Ha, don't make me laugh.

    I'd likely quit MMOs at that point.

    This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.
  • hyperstrikecohhyperstrikecoh Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    TOR seems to have cost around $200 million. The high estimates are always best to account for. After one year, charging $15/mo at 1 million subs/year, that's $180,000,000. Now add box costs on top of that. I believe the box was around $60. So add $60,000,000. That alone gives TOR $40 mil profit.

    Betting it was financed to hell and back though. So I'm better it was break-even.
  • rianfrostrianfrost Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

    well, I still have phantasy star oline 2 i'm holding out for, but in a way, since my rl friends didnt follow me here from coh, i suspect my mmo days are numbered either way. eh, i have a gaming pc, a wii, a wii u, a 3ds, a 360, I have plenty single player stuff to do.

    i'm trying tera, but fanservice only goes so far :P Irony is there is one game other i enjoyed enough to make a main and my friends were initially looking at...but given its publisher, none of us are touching it. i'm thinking I dont need to elaborate, @#$% that particular publisher.
  • serendipitynowserendipitynow Posts: 554 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    TOR seems to have cost around $200 million. The high estimates are always best to account for. After one year, charging $15/mo at 1 million subs/year, that's $180,000,000. Now add box costs on top of that. I believe the box was around $60. So add $60,000,000. That alone gives TOR $40 mil profit.

    You do realise that you are listing GROSS income and NOT profit right?

    To start with you have to calculate the NET income from that, and then calculate the profit.

    After you subtract costs - all the manufacture and shipping costs of the game, all the running costs of the servers, running costs of the buildings etc and the huge payroll for the staff running and developing the game etc the actual profit they have made wont even have half recouped the cost involved yet.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Don't forget the taxes too :tongue:
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I can't shake a phaser without getting another '[email protected] has won a Chekov-class dinghy' popup from a lockbox winner.
    Now I want a Chekhov-class dinghy...

    I had never heard of Cryptic, CO, or STO when I saw an ad for CO in a sidebar on Facebook, back when it was still P2P and they were having a free weekend. I was underimpressed by the version at the time. (It's gotten a lot cleaner since, obviously, and the introduction of the AT to streamline the character concepts helped.)

    Later, I saw another Facebook sidebar when CO went F2P, and decided to give it another try. Haven't stopped playing since. It was in CO somewhere (either Chat or the forums) that I first heard of STO; now VAdm Jon Sills is level 50, commanding the Odyssey-class star cruiser USS Hans Asperger. (Also the Danube-class runabout USS Puyallup, but I was never able to make it past DS9 to the Wormhole in the high-level mission requiring one to do that...) CO remains my main squeeze, though. (Not my first love - that was WoW - but when I got to about 65th level, and realized that there was absolutely no way to get any further without teaming, and nobody in the game was interested in showing me how it was done and would boot me the moment they figured out I wasn't already an expert, well...)

    Recently, when TOR went F2P, I gave that a try. So far, I've gotten a Smuggler, a Jedi Knight, and a Jedi Consular to 10th level or so. And once you get past the intro sequence of missions, it becomes all same-same - you go to Coruscant, three different senators try to make you their flunky (and always the same three senators), you have to go fight the Merchant Guild gangsters... Oh, and the graphics. Gods below, the graphics!! If you haven't checked that game out, you have no idea how good you have it here. You don't like it when the object you've picked up disappears? Try riding in a speeder that vanishes, leaving you scooting through the air on your butt. Try random angled flashes of color across the screen, in headache-inducing flashes (and Tesla forbid someone with a seizure disorder tries to play - that won't be pretty). Oh, and faces that look like they were sculpted out of low-grade potatoes. And enemies that don't even give you a clue that they're there until they attack (at least when you get that glitch in CO and STO, they still have nametags and shadows).

    Basically, if you ever want to really appreciate CO, go play TOR for a while. Pity, too, because the voiceover work is top-notch. Voices alone won't hold a game, though...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • decorumfriendsdecorumfriends Posts: 2,798 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    jonsills sees the origins of things:

    Now I want a Chekhov-class dinghy...

    "Ah, dinghies! Inwented in Russia, you know." :tongue:
    'Dec out

    QDSxNpT.png
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