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arimikami
Posts: 475 Arc User
So, a lot of the conversations I've seen on this forum seem to be about the gap between different types of players.
Silver vs. Gold
AT vs. Freeform
Casual vs. Hardcore
I'm not even going to touch on that last one here but, I have seen very good comments about the other two in these forums that got me thinking about how they could close the gap between them while still keeping the majority of the playerbase happy and here's what I think.
Get rid of archetypes.
I've said in other places that I think archetypes aren't worth paying for and I'll say it again.
Archetypes are not worth paying for.
They're very limiting and I think they go completely against this game's slogan of 'Be the hero you want to be.'
Here's what I think they should do instead.
Give free player access to a small number of frameworks. Note that I said frameworks and not powersets. I think letting a freeplayer have access to one of the frameworks in a few of the powersets is fine. Giving them access to entire powersets would be way too much.
For example they could give free players access to the following:
Ice from Energy Projector
Archery from Technology
Dual Blades from Martial Arts
Might from Brick
Arcane Sorcery from Mystic
Someone's bound to point out that I ignored the Mentalist powerset. There's only two frameworks in the entire powerset so I left that one out and think that five frameworks would give free players tons of choices on how to make their characters.
They could then sell frameworks to players instead of ATs which, I think, would have much more appeal which also means they could sell them for more than they're selling archetypes for.
I also think they could increase the price of a character slot if they did this considering that each character slot purchased would have much more versatility in what a player does with it.
Right about now, some gold players are probably wondering, "Well how does this benefit us?", and the answer is pretty simple. By doing what I'm suggesting here, it would take the focus off of repackaging powers that already exist in game to sell in bundles to silver players and put that focus on making new powers and frameworks which means more options for everyone.
Thoughts?
Silver vs. Gold
AT vs. Freeform
Casual vs. Hardcore
I'm not even going to touch on that last one here but, I have seen very good comments about the other two in these forums that got me thinking about how they could close the gap between them while still keeping the majority of the playerbase happy and here's what I think.
Get rid of archetypes.
I've said in other places that I think archetypes aren't worth paying for and I'll say it again.
Archetypes are not worth paying for.
They're very limiting and I think they go completely against this game's slogan of 'Be the hero you want to be.'
Here's what I think they should do instead.
Give free player access to a small number of frameworks. Note that I said frameworks and not powersets. I think letting a freeplayer have access to one of the frameworks in a few of the powersets is fine. Giving them access to entire powersets would be way too much.
For example they could give free players access to the following:
Ice from Energy Projector
Archery from Technology
Dual Blades from Martial Arts
Might from Brick
Arcane Sorcery from Mystic
Someone's bound to point out that I ignored the Mentalist powerset. There's only two frameworks in the entire powerset so I left that one out and think that five frameworks would give free players tons of choices on how to make their characters.
They could then sell frameworks to players instead of ATs which, I think, would have much more appeal which also means they could sell them for more than they're selling archetypes for.
I also think they could increase the price of a character slot if they did this considering that each character slot purchased would have much more versatility in what a player does with it.
Right about now, some gold players are probably wondering, "Well how does this benefit us?", and the answer is pretty simple. By doing what I'm suggesting here, it would take the focus off of repackaging powers that already exist in game to sell in bundles to silver players and put that focus on making new powers and frameworks which means more options for everyone.
Thoughts?
Post edited by arimikami on
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Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
It's easy enough to shoo people away on the forums when they play the "play2win" card because they're few and far between and quite frankly it's a very lame argument. It's another thing entirely to fight off that misconception when it's being broadcast to a larger audience.
/tinfoilhat
Didn't think it was.
I can understand your view but, I see it more as a reason to stay gold rather than a reason to go gold.
Right now, very little is being done with this game. In fact, out of all the most recent additions to this game only one of those things was something that was free for gold and pay for silvers, the night avenger archetype. I don't see that as being of any value at all to a gold player seeing that they can make something they'll like more with a freeform character slot. All the other recent additions to this game were things that gold players had to pay for anyways.
To me, it looks like they're saying their gold players can take a flying leap because they think they can make more money off selling things to people in their item shops. That's why I had this thought. It may not be perfect but, it does put the focus back on making additions that should be free for gold players that they may actually want.
I don't think it would result in that outcry any more than selling freeform slots do, unless you're suggesting they stop selling those so that only subscribers can have freeform characters.
Edit: And now that I think about it, even that wouldn't change matters because if you subscribe, you'd be getting freeform characters which means that you're still paying to win.
Subscription diminishing returns are always op. Lifetimers have already payed for themselves several times over, and Silvers have the option to do both plus buy exactly what they want when they want. I just think theres this missing strange ghost that comes with subscription freemium models that needs work. Cause essentially depending on the size of the game, you end up paying more than the value of the actual things inside the game than they're worth the longer you play. So from a consumer standpoint, its a bad choice if you plan on staying around for the long haul. But the good thing about the subscription is, you don't lose anything if the game tanks or isn't your cup of tea.
Since the obvious choice of most games out is to live on a long time and thrive, I don't see why they lean on the safety net of the subscription model unless they aren't confident in their product. I hate to use GW2 as an example but, I'm fairly sure they were fully confident in the longevity of their title, otherwise breaking away from a subscription stand point would have been letting go of a safety net. And I think with the approaching Neverwinter, Cryptic might be taking a step away from that insecurity that comes from sub safety nets. Dunno. I mean, in the long run a person who goes silver is going to end up paying way more than the gold sub or the lifetime, but that all comes down to the gamble that every player you get will actually stay.
There's that ghost again.
One thing I think should happen is that every purchase of an Archetype comes with one free character slot.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I'm just reiterating history here. When the slots went on sale there was a small outcry that it was a pay2win gimmick. Eventually that stupidity died off but much like comics, things have a way of coming back from the dead. Making a fundamental change to ATs like that would get a lot of people's dander up and we'll be finding ourselves on another stupid Massively list for it.
I'm not even going to address why the argument that FF means paying to win is a load of rubbish in the first place.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
_______________________________________________
I think the arguement that freeform is pay to win is stupid too but, just to clarify, I'm not saying alter archetypes, I'm saying get rid of them entirely and make everything freeform so the devs have to work on making new powers and frameworks. The golds should get those for free and the silvers would have to pay for each framework individually.
You're wanting a change that the game simply isn't made to handle right now. Not only that but you're calling for the removal of at least 15 different items on the Z-Store: all the premium ATs and possibly the Retrain Token. That's a lot of potential money going up in smoke in favor of a model that may or may not work.
Edit: This idea may open up more options like you claim but it invalidates a lot of the work that went into making these ATs.
I can understand the part about it removing some things for people to buy but, at the same time, it would add items that would most likely be more desirable with a higher market value. I think that would balance out some and I don't think it can really be said that a whole lot of work went into ATs. They're basically just a number of powers bundled together that are centered around a theme. When you think about it that way, player churn out better ATs than that all day every day. It's what the freeform builds are. : )
Wait? Whaaaa..?
Then don't pay for them.
EDIT: Also, any mentions of pay2win should be ignored. This is a cooperative MMORPG. There is no way of "winning". It's not that kind of game.
While this idea has its merits, right now it's probably too late for such change.
What about already existing high level AT toons with powers which now wouldn't be free anymore, especially about players with premium AT's?
Locking these toons out of play or forcing retrains on them would end with a rather massive outcry, unless it would also end with making them into some kind of legacy characters with frameworks unlocked.
Also, what about already sold FF slots? Unless they would be changed to the some kind of "better" slots with all powersets unlocked.
Part of the reason why I think the suggestions I made in the OP would be a good idea is that a framework is more valuable than an AT and therefore, can be sold for more money. If you make them buy frameworks for each character slot individually, you take that away by making people repeatedly buy multiple frameworks for a single character. I think it costs about $10-$15 for one AT and $14 for 2 character slots. That means it currently costs $17-$22 to make a new AT on a new character slot. Let's say they up the price of a single character slot to $10 since it's now more valuable as you have increased versatitlity in what you do with that slot and they charger $20-$25 for a framework. If you wanted to have 2 characters that each have powers from 2 frameworks, that would cost you $100-$120. If you wanted them to have powers from 3 frameworks it's go up to $140-$255.
The whole point of what I posted in the OP is to give people more value for their money while still generating profit for Cryptic. This suggestion would completely undermine that and in fact make things worse. Also... when you buy an AT, it doesn't apply to only one character slot, why should frameworks?
It's never too late for change. Sometimes that change can be a little painful at first but, if it makes things better then change is good.
This could be handled in a wide variety of ways. That's part of why I made this thread. To figure those out.
One option is to refund the cost of ATs to players and have them use that zen to purchase the frameworks they want then offer a retrain to each AT character that can only be used for that character. As you suggested, making them legacy characters is another option. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas but, I really doubt that anyone is going to be in an uproar about their AT characters becoming freeform. A few might if they don't really grasp what's being done but, I think the vast majority would be pretty happy about the change.
When you buy a product and that product later goes down in price, do you go demand that the people that sold you that prodicy give you your money back or that they give you something else to make up for the fact that you bought it sooner than everyone else? No. Of course not. That would be a little silly. Same thing applies here.
Probably. The question is how would buying more frameworks on that account be applied to the ATs that were already bought.
Not doing anything would only earn PWE a rather bad publicity and another pack of pissed customers unwiling to spend money at anything.
But lets say any purchased FF slot would be refunded and I could get behind this idea.
Or, making current FF slots into legacy slots with all powersets unlocked - but only for this character slot.
That right there isn't a bad idea actually. They could even keep that type of freeform slot available for purchase.
That way, people would be able to choose between buying a single character slot that has all powers unlocked for $50 or they could use the other method and pick and choose the frameworks they want to use on those characters, unlocking them on all the slots they buy, depending on whether they think they're only going to want to play one character or make a variety of toons.
1) Plain subpar to ff
2) pve competitive but not pvp competitive
3) pve and pvp competitivie
4) all frameworks(ff)
Number 4 is obvious covered by the ff slot. So let's take a look on the first 3:
1) Assuming that this is the free stage. While it could give some variation, even the minimal minmaxing will lead to few proficient builds which is not that different.
2) If the cost of reaching this is less than the ff slot, then it would take people from getting those or if it price is close to the ff slot, people will wait to buy it instead.
3) not much different from 2, but since pvp tends to go to extreme minmaxing I wonder how many people will go for this instead of ff slots.
There are 2 problems I see in this approach:
1) It would kill AT pvp. Yes, I know pvp is mostly agonizing(or dead depending on the point of view). No clear separation among player base would make farther unfair unrestricted pvp since depending on the number of frameworks the performance would change.
2) Even if for some might sound an easy task, this is a huge undertaking provided CO pretty limited resourcers. I wonder if we really want this instead of having more content added. F2P conversion took a while to change things, which was also paid in terms of not having devs working on content.
Imho, it does not worth the effort. If they want to something different from ATs, they should just give everybody freeform and look for another form of feature for people to pay. Currently, ATs in the content as it is intended perform reasonable way, they might not solo lairs, but this is not intended. Moreover, anybody who is really interested in ff can get it by a combination of zen and Qs. If something they could give ATs maybe another degree of freedom, but it kind of defeat its own purpose.
There are plenty of casual players happily playing themed heroes which ATs cater for. The on-alert pass did wonders for ATs. And unless you play them, you can't know how good or adequate many of them are for cooperative PVE content. In that regard, free players aren't shortchanged in competency. They just can't excel in every role.
Buying an AT is practically buying a framework, except it's mostly premade so you can't ever mess it up badly. That's an appeal in itself.
If you are not content with an AT, get freeform through the available means, but there are people who are.
This is an opinion from someone who has played every available AT except for the recent Night Avenger.
What's suggested implies that one can eventually grind Q to pretty much a lifetime sub status with all powersets unlocked per account? If that's the case, each framework needs to be priced way higher than the current freeform slot, otherwise, it will be too easy. In that case, it will be much easier to grind Q for that one freeform slot, or flat out buying a lifetime sub instead will be cheaper.
This right here is enough for me to say HELL NO to this idea.
For the last time We DO NOT need what little resources we have for this game being spent on yet ANOTHER revamp.
We need content. ENOUGH tinkering with overall game mechanics.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
That has PVP...
Except in PVP
Except that the PVP element kinda *is*.
Anyhow. This is all great and everything. But this all amounts to a lot of...whizzing in the wind.
CO is basically on life support. Early and near-constant bungling at Cryptic/Atari murdered any chance this game had of growing a significant enough fanbase to warrant sustained development.
STO, which was equally bungled, at least has a built-in fanbase that swells the ranks every time there's a new Trek flick out. CO doesn't have that kind of leverage. So it can't really "command" Cryptic/PWE's attention (let alone development funding).
And that's really too bad.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Worth is a measure of value which is completely subjective. AT's may not be worth paying for to you, but the people who have been paying for them obviously disagree.
AT's were presented as a solution to two concerns at the time of the F2P conversion.
1) Cryptic needed something to sell and the content gating approach used in previous hybrid games like DDO/LoTRO seemed problematic because CO had even less content to sell then than now.
2) Some people had been complaining about the complexity of the FF character building system, had been asking for class-like character design, since launch. People had left the game because of these complaints. Adding an AT system didnt take anything away from those who had no complaints about FF character building, but added an option for those who wanted something simpler. Keep in mind that there are subscribers to this day who use AT's.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Later, I did figure out how to make a few viable FF builds - by starting with ATs, and making some small variations. Dr. Destiny, for instance, started off with the Grimoire set, then I started making some small variations, like taking Night Warrior for a passive (it's his Invisibility spell, you see...). And much of Officer Unfriendly is taken from the Soldier and Specialist ATs, except with no blades or full-auto weapons, just his pistols and a shotgun (and, later, a rocket launcher, because it was the best in-theme choice at that level).
So, you see, without ATs, I never would have learned to enjoy this game, because I would have been trying to play it with a character who might as well have been a half-blind double amputee with Alzheimer's.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I would probably do a lot less thinking and a lot more buying of an AT I was even moderately interested in if this was this case.
Since I doubt Cryptic is going to change prices and give "something" for "nothing," how about an AT + slot for 1500 (current is 1150 and 2 slots for 1400). This is essentially a 50% discount on one slot if you purchase an AT.
One of my roommates built a Marksman character and leveled him to max, and was surprised with how effective the character was. This is Archery, never considered one of the better power frames. The main thing which most AT's lack is self healing.
CPNP still, as of 6E, lacks levels. CO was built with the existing system rather than using the PNP one to, oddly enough, make character building more accessible and more recognizable to MMO players.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The other conversation was about how people want ****, but don't want to pay the already established prices for them.
Actually many businesses will refund you if they have a price guarentee, though most have a specific amount of time attached to such deals. I know working in retail that such deals are major selling points.
I would just make all the ATs free. That way all Silvers could have some sort of exprience with the different sets, and start to figure out how things could work together, or discover how much they like to use various powers, then either get a freeform slot or sub to make a character with said powers from different sets.
If this went through, what would happen to my Soldier and Invincible ATs if I went Silver?
Depends how this is implemented... The idea is good, but personally I think it should unlock specific powers... so... for example for Soldier you would have all of the munition powers to pick and choose in whatever order you want... Invincible would give you the same ability on power armor... and since you own both and they are on the same framework, maybe able to mix powers of both? *shrugs*
Not really sure...
You'd have Munitions and Power Armor sets unlocked for your new pseudo-FF characters.
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A great deal of ranged builds rely on Concentration which is labeled as a Gadgeteer power. That would mean Gadgeteering as a whole would have to be made available to Silver accounts so that players can have ranged builds that don't suffer from a sudden onset of sucking.
Additionally, anyone who enjoys the playstyle of Glacier would have to have access to three sets: Ice, Gadgeteering(for Concentration) and Power Armor (for Invul and Unbreakable). Would people have to buy "premium powersets" in order to continue playing the characters they've become familiar with? If players who purchased The Invincible are given a refund so that they can buy Power Armor as a whole, where does that leave players who haven't bought that AT but play a Glacier?
Some sets in the same framework are bigger than others. Unarmed Martial Arts compared to Fighting Claws for instance. Would the size of a set affect it's price? How would players react to price disparities like that?
Things like that would make this system a bigger hassle that it's worth imo.
Not at all. I see a gap because it's regularly pointed out by others who vote against suggestions because it would favor one side or the other too much. I think the best way to put an end to that is to remove that gap that's pointed out by others so the focus can be on improving the game overall rather than worrying about whether one side or the other will be left out.
I started as a silver account player and while I didn't play all of the ATs, I think I played enough of them to be aware of the differences between ATs and freeforms. Personally, I don't think toons should have to excel in every role so that's a nonissue to me. I do think that ATs are extremely limiting though and fly right in the face of this game's motto, "Be the hero you want to be." I also think that teaming is pretty rare outside of alerts which can barely be called teaming.
This is what I mean by ATs contradicting this game's slogan of be the hero you want to be. Rather than just making builds for people to buy, I think this game should encourage people to be creative with bulids while providing enough information to keep them from gimping themselves in the process.
I did get freeforms by going gold. It had nothing to do with performance though. As you pointed out, some ATs do very well. My issue was how limited they are in a game that seems to be about customization.
It would depend on the particular players preferences. For someone that just wants to play one character, a single freeform slot would be a much better buy but, I think the suggestion I made in the OP would be a better value for people that want to make multiple characters while still generating profit for Crpytic. It would also put the focus on creating new powers and frameworks for players to use rather than how to rebundle preexisting powers to sell to non freeform using players. Also, I see nothing wrong with charging more for something like I suggested. It would be more valuable as it would offer players more options so, it's a given that it would cost more.
You seem to think that I'm demanding this right now. I am not. In fact, I'm not demanding it at all. I just think it's a good idea and am curious to see what other players think. As I've said in multiple threads at this point, I am willing to wait my turn in line for the improvements I'd like to see implemented in this game. Why don't we let the devs focus on what to work on first seeing as that's their job while we focus on suggestions for them that would make us more incluned to spend money and keep paying their salaries?
I see these as mistakes on the part of Cryptic. They should have focused on putting more content into this game so they'd have something to sell to players and they should have given better tutorials for freeform builds. From what I've seen, there's nothing in this game to help you at all in learning how to make a freeform and that is the failing of the devs.
This would do nothing to help this game. It may bring in and help keep players but, those players wouldn't be spending money on this game so, their impact would do very little.
Good question. A few ideas have already been discussed in this thread. I don't claim to have all the answers. If I did, I'd be on the phone with Cryptic instead of discussing this on the forums so, I think the better question is, "How would you like to see that handled?"
I think I should point out right now that a large part of your arguement seems to be based on the assumption that I'm saying those should be the frameworks made available to players. I'm not. That's why I said it was an example. It was meant to give players an idea of what I'm talking about and not as an absolute. With regards to freeforms being daunting, I don't think it would be. You'd still be somewhat limited in your power choices so, it wouldn't be as easy to gimp yourself as it would with having access to all powers at once and as I said earlier, Cryptic should have put more information in the game regarding how to work with freeforms seeing as that was the main selling point and they've put in almost no information at all.
That is a good question and one I don't have a hard and fast answer for. A number of thoughts come to mind. One is that they could make a defensive passive for Ice that clones one of the preexisting defensive passives. I don't think it's out of reason for an ice user to be able to put a layer of ice around them that protects them from incoming damage like invuln does or makes them harder to hit by causing attacks to slide off of them in a manner similar to LR.
I would like to think that it would either affect the price of the set or make more powers for some sets to bring them up to the same level as others. Again, it puts the focus on the devs making more things for everyone to enjoy rather than focusing on one group of players or the other.
That depends on your view. I think it would take work but, I also think it would remove issues about worrying whether or not they're catering to one group of players too heavily and would allow the devs to focus on quality over and above other concerns. To me, that's very much worth it.
-AT does go against the slogan "Be the hero you want to be" to a certain degree. However, if the AT works for the hero you want to be, then the point is moot. Personally though, I think having ATs, even if it is somewhat against the original selling point, is a good way for players to quickly jump in without having to get through freeform. Really the slogan is outdated as it was pre-F2P.
-The Cryptic provided information and, from my understanding, tools for building a freeform character are lacking. If you idea was implemented, a much better system should be put in place to help players through FF creation.
-The need for more frameworks/powers is much higher than the need for more ATs. I can't see where there is any need for more ATs at this point. There are so many to choose from now and I think most of the stereotypical hero concepts are now covered by ATs. With or without ATs in existence, they really should focus on new frameworks/powers. If they keep ATs, they can build new ones after they add a few more frameworks (I say 4-5 before another AT is released).
Two points I've seen made by you (OP) and/or others I am also in agreement with:
-More than anything, the game needs playable, worthwhile content. I haven't bought any adventure packs or checked out the comics, but I think they are great ideas. I believe that such content is a fantastic idea for the game and I think that they could even charge for them (queue the crapstorm). Of course any charge on such content should only be for silver players and should be reasonable enough that a player could earn enough questionite within a months time to pay for the next monthly issue. This is coming from a silver player, btw.
-If
However...
I still disagree that ATs should be totally eliminated. I think they work well for many players and provide a quick way for players to get in the game. Over time, if a player is truly interested, they will move to creating a freeform character either by subbing or buying a freeform slot. This is a MAJOR selling point for subs or FF slots, in my opinion. When I started my currently only character, I liked having the ATs (not that I had a choice, but I didn't mind the concept) so I could jump right in. As time has gone on I have grown more interested in the game and now am considering subbing/LTS/FF slot (verdict is still out on which based on the current state of the game and the eerie silence I've seen on the forums from the devs). My biggest argument against your idea is that limiting to certain frameworks with a powerset such as you suggested would be too limiting on character design concepts to new F2P players, which most new players will likely be.
I will put in this suggestion though. If silver players were limited to choosing a framework similar to current ATs (i.e. instead of Soldiers you had Munitions, Marksman had Archery), and those same frameworks corresponding to current silver AT options were all available, AND the player had to chose a single framework to stay in (therefore if you chose Munitions, you couldn't use Archery powers) then perhaps it might work for me. However, I still think that would be too limiting, as most ATs do use powers outside their core framework. The other possibility is to create limited frameworks based on current ATs that allow more choices but still don't leave open the full set within that framework/powerset. Hopefully that all makes sense.
P.S. -Sorry for the incredibly long post.
7th Joint Task Force
Third Reserve Flotilla
House of Sigma
This game is one of the few exceptions were the main hook is locked behind the very thing that F2P seeks to make more money by removing...a subscription.
TBH it doesn't make much sense and the argument against just making freeform part of the base F2P game is almost always something along the lines of "it'll make subscribers mad" or "it'll cause a drop in subs".
To the first point that it'll make subscribers mad. So what. All 12 of the ones who aren't lifers will get mad and that vast revenue will be lost. For the ones that are lifers well nuts, guess they'll have to unsub...
As to the later about it causing a drop in subs. So what. Most of the people I know who left the game and weren't lifers didn't even leave because there was no new content. They left because they weren't willing to pay a sub for the best part of the game. Lose a few subs, gain people that wanted freeform without paying $50 for a restricted version or paying a sub to lose it when they unsub.
It's something to consider, but if the argument is to prevent an increasingly smaller subset of customers from getting upset let's just park that reason on the curb along with their bags.
As to making part of the freeform free and the rest not? No, just stick to ATs then. Making part of it free just validates all of the P2W talk because let's face it, the powersets and/or the frameworks are not even remotely balanced enough against each other.
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I've been holding off on going Gold because I don't want to get attached to a handful of FF characters and then find I wasn't able to successfully pull in any of my old CoH crew.
You aren't the only one who's said that either. I have some buddies that were trying to get me into CoH when MMOs just weren't my thing and they're interested in CO and freeform, but not at the price of $15 a month rental or $50 per pop purchase.
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Uhhh, then isn't that right there a viable argument for ATs AS IS to continue to exist?
I mean if they (potential subscribers) are not sure of the content, why not just have them roll ATs to try out the content?
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Because that doesnt happen already? I am sorry, I forgot that if it isnt your idea, it couldn't possibly work.
It would be better than killing the characters that people already have by locking out powers they had before.
The "be the hero you want to be" is for Subscribers and people who buy freeform. That simple. Free form in any way should never be free.
Most, at least some, ATs are a bit ...suboptimal in the able-to-survive-normal-difficulty-solo department.
*edit hates me
Which is an incentive to go Freeform.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool: