Just when I was getting grumpily settled with the idea of this odd form of grab bags, I found a new reason it makes me mad.
Someone had to spend time doing this, Dev time was wasted on this junk.
You can argue it didn't take much time or 'oh well STO had it so it was easy' that BS! We've asked for things, fairly simple things, that STO has that we actually wanted.. and we're told 'it's not that easy' or 'it takes more Dev time than you think'.
Well clearly that's not true if they really want to do something, including this.... stuff
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Lastly this is to the community. If you don't want this system don't buy the keys. Vote with your dollar and maybe it will go away.
This is absolutely the only thing PWE/Cryptic will listen to.
It doesn't matter how much the forums explode or how much people complain about the boxes. As long as $MoneyFromKeys is greater than $MoneyLostFromPeopleWhoHateKeys, the keys will stay.
Furthermore, if the keys are a big success, you can bet that PWE is going to push the dev team to lock more and more new content behind them, like they've done in STO. Their efforts will be focused on making new costumes/items/vehicles for us to gamble for instead of creating new stuff for us to actually do. I wouldn't mind paying for new missions, but I know as well as PWE does that mission content doesn't generate the same monetary returns as pooping out a new Helm of Pwnage +5 and throwing it in a gamble box.
Furthermore, if the keys are a big success, you can bet that PWE is going to push the dev team to lock more and more new content behind them, like they've done in STO. Their efforts will be focused on making new costumes/items/vehicles for us to gamble for instead of creating new stuff for us to actually do. I wouldn't mind paying for new missions, but I know as well as PWE does that mission content doesn't generate the same monetary returns as pooping out a new Helm of Pwnage +5 and throwing it in a gamble box.
Sure.
While this time, dcuo will have on their next update the hideouts, as we don't have the crafting room or training room the CO devs promised to us in the summer 2011.
I don't even speak of the new missions the update will have on top of the hideouts.
Hope to have some new missions here is a dream. If Cryptic do missions, it's missions without scenario, with only a lot of grind to drop some salvage tokens to buy items with an extensive salvage price to force people to buy zens and buy grab bags.
While this time, Cryptic have often say to us that their games use the same engine and for this reason could exchange their feature from one to other. And Sto will have soon the sidekick system from CO, but we always don't have the sg bases, the forge, the content, etc... from this other game.
While this time, we have lockboxes, we have grab bags, and just a poor 10 mns alert every two months when other games have new maps, new lairs, at every update.
The grab gabs was a success because they are here since their first iteration.
This money be used for what ? Which content ?
Other things to sell in store and almost nothing more. But devs working on the lockboxes.
It's awesome.
With crafting gone the way of the dodo, and training being something you can do literally wherever you happen to be at the moment, including in the middle of an instance, why would you need crafting and training rooms in your hideout any more?
There are things I'd much rather see the graphic artists working on than hideout rooms I can't use. Maybe a new sewer layout or two, or a warehouse that doesn't look like it must house spare 737 fuselages for Boeing...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I only wanted the salvage and I got two good devices to make up for it, but good GOD... FIVE OF THEM?! On a level 40 character? I guess I'll go get a team of lowbies and gather them up in one place and give them a free 20% XP boost, but good lord, I can't even give them to a new character of my own!
What you will do more with a sewer or a warehouse than a training or crafting room? nothing.
Crafting and training rooms was an exemple. My preferences are a trophy room which gives an interest for the perks. It's the only thing which can give a "playable" interest to hideouts.
If you want to know my opinion about that, the graphist artists should work on new endgame lairs (as therakiel) or new maps, instead of 10 mns alerts which disappear after one week and come back for a week, one month later, or fluff as the hideouts, or instead of working on the nwo content but this is another thread.
But the points you are missed was that Cryptic create useless features because they aren't finished as hideouts, when others games create content at the same time. (raids, instances, episodes, etc...)
And as we have almost no new playable content since this time (far from the content they had in the other games), the others games had more playable content AND have the same feature than us now.
It's ridiculous.
And why the exchange of features between the cryptic games are always in the same way, Co => Sto and not the opposite, was the second point. (Sidekick, etc.... even some musics on sto are Co's musics, i'd laugh when i've played at sto and hear them, they even grab us some musics, but Co don't have any of their musics, even those who aren't licensed as star trek musics. How many time to put a new mp3 in a zone in co and have more variety? 2 mns for a dev when they already have the file?)
But this can't be sold in store, then...
Ok, for starters I must say I like the level of communication(and how it's sometimes quite candid vs. corporate in it's delivery). IMO, not sucking up, but I think you are easily on the fast track to being the best person CO has ever had to hold your particular position as CR. Please keep it up. :biggrin:
There are three answers to this. First is that grab bags and lock boxes make money. Champions Online is ultimately a business, and we have to follow the money. It's the honest truth.
This I understand and can agree with because it makes sense.
We have to judge the best way to package content. Sometimes this is even to give it away for free, like the Comic Series and Adventure Packs ultimately were.
This I do not understand and perhaps you could ellaborate. See, my opinion on this is that CS and APs were part of the leverage system to encourage people to go gold and pay for a sub. The more incentives, while still giving away some new things for free, that a gold/LTS sub offer...the more appealing they are to the potential buyer.
Second is that there will definitely still be content outside of boxes. We did just release the Shadow Wings, and updated the Q-Store with three items that used to be ZEN-only.
This I dissagree with because I see do not see Grab Bags, Lock Boxes, or Travel Powers as Content in all honesty. Content, in it's basest form to me, is like we used to have in the low levels when we could choose to go to Westside, Desert Crisis, and/or Canada Crisis....which now we only have one of those options. Content is places to go, things to see, and missions/lairs to run with reasons to do them.
Third is that I don't think we've even approached the threshold of pay to win. MODs are helpful, but I hardly think they're game-breaking. And the grand prize of the lock box is a be-critter, which I consider a vanity item. If you feel this is approaching pay to win, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how that is, because it's helpful feedback.
I agree completely with you on Be-critters being vanity/rp/goofing off items and not pay to win.....for now. I also agree that Mods are not game-breaking. My fear in this statement is how long your statement will be true and...looking at PTS and Live....I see this particular landscape changing in a not-so-positive fashion to be honest.
Since PTS can change at the drop of a hat(which I am hoping occurs....ALOT) I will give you a Live example that I have personally witnessed more than once recently. I have a new toon. He's a Mecha-Sumo who uses Unarmed MA with the Darkness Advs and some Darkness powers. I choose not to run Alerts until I am lvl 15 with 3 Superstats because it is my opinion that sub-15s are dead weight in most, not all, situations in reguards to Alerts(this could be another debate for another time but for now let's just say that's my opinion and this is how I, personally, choose to handle it by how I handle myself ingame). Now the CO Community is not super huge so most vets know most other vets quite well(even if they're not all on the best speaking terms or chatting all the time) so you go into a bunch of smashes and you see the same handles from time to time.
Now I have, personally, witnessed on 4 occasions now people who I would refer to as somewhere in the "Super Casual", "Not Terribly Good", "DPS = 0 When you're a Corpse" ranges....but now we have the new devices and the lockboxes. So now I see these same 4 people waltz into the alert and basically solo it with everyone else in the alert just there as a pet/decoration(myself included). Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for success and I do not believe that the problem here is that the bad become good(I help newbies and vets alike with my opinions on how to do things whenever asked) but with spending 50-100 bucks(they told me and it's their money and their right to spend it) they've gone from "Faceplants McGee" to "God of Alerts" with little to no actual improvement of their playing ability, builds, gear, powers, or anything. It's the devices doing all the work and even that is beyond easy-mode really. So, in it's most basic definition..they paid and now they win.
I, as a vet, cannot help but see some of the things on Live and PTS(not all of which are bad, mind you) and see the beginnings of a pattern which I believe could lead down a road far far worse than Cryptic ever could have thought the Elite Blue SL Secondaries were when it comes to power. I guess my actual fear is that CO devolves from "Be the Hero You Want to Be(within some basic build/synergy guidelines, of course) to "Hero Schmero, Be the Device packing Vechicle driving God of Destruction we want you to be." In this reguard...I very much pray I am proven wrong. I simply do not want Freeform to become obsolete since it is, IMO, one of the 3 main pillars of this game.
Ok, longwinded post with lots of words. If you read through it all then thanks and I look forward to your reply.
P.S. Could we please put these devices back on the mobs that used to drop them prior to On Alert? As sad as it may sound, for many(myself included) this WAS the Endgame...and now it's gone. Please bring it back as an option for those who choose to endure that path. :biggrin:
Let me see if i get the comparisons right:
Collectible Cards
>buy a random pack of cards-because obviously you want to try to get some cards
>get only cards-excluding that blank cardboard in the back to keep them from being bent.
>don't get a random marble or dinosaurs toy-because it's a card pack, duh.
Grab bags
>Buy a grab bag because you want the top tier NEW items added in it.
>Get only heaps of old junk.
>Don't get a single thing of what you were aiming for.
I really don't see how you come up with your conclusion that collectible cards scam people of their money in the same way cryptic do. Because at least when you buy a pack of those cards, you know it's always going to be a card. but as for these Crap bags? The only thing they will guarantee is salvage... which is very minimal at best. out of 2 lock boxes, i got only salvage, nothing else. With cards, at least you could trade away any repeats you get. What am i going to do with 4 salvage? 8 more keys to be able to afford something with 20 salvage? forget it.
I expressed no such conclusion.
For what its worth, your description of grab bags is easily related to CCGs:
Grab bags (or CCGs)
>Buy a grab bag or CCG packet because you want the valuable items that might be in it.
>Get only heaps of junk that you don't need, or can't use, and that you are unlikely to be able to trade for anything of worth to you..
>Don't get a single thing of what you were aiming for.
Hmm, my exact experience of collectible miniature packets as well as collectible card packs.
Yes you are guaranteed cards, but you are not guaranteed cards that you can use or that have any trade value.
Ok, for starters I must say I like the level of communication(and how it's sometimes quite candid vs. corporate in it's delivery). IMO, not sucking up, but I think you are easily on the fast track to being the best person CO has ever had to hold your particular position as CR. Please keep it up. :biggrin:
Now onto the reply bit...
This I understand and can agree with because it makes sense.
This I do not understand and perhaps you could ellaborate. See, my opinion on this is that CS and APs were part of the leverage system to encourage people to go gold and pay for a sub. The more incentives, while still giving away some new things for free, that a gold/LTS sub offer...the more appealing they are to the potential buyer.
This I dissagree with because I see do not see Grab Bags, Lock Boxes, or Travel Powers as Content in all honesty. Content, in it's basest form to me, is like we used to have in the low levels when we could choose to go to Westside, Desert Crisis, and/or Canada Crisis....which now we only have one of those options. Content is places to go, things to see, and missions/lairs to run with reasons to do them.
I agree completely with you on Be-critters being vanity/rp/goofing off items and not pay to win.....for now. I also agree that Mods are not game-breaking. My fear in this statement is how long your statement will be true and...looking at PTS and Live....I see this particular landscape changing in a not-so-positive fashion to be honest.
Since PTS can change at the drop of a hat(which I am hoping occurs....ALOT) I will give you a Live example that I have personally witnessed more than once recently. I have a new toon. He's a Mecha-Sumo who uses Unarmed MA with the Darkness Advs and some Darkness powers. I choose not to run Alerts until I am lvl 15 with 3 Superstats because it is my opinion that sub-15s are dead weight in most, not all, situations in reguards to Alerts(this could be another debate for another time but for now let's just say that's my opinion and this is how I, personally, choose to handle it by how I handle myself ingame). Now the CO Community is not super huge so most vets know most other vets quite well(even if they're not all on the best speaking terms or chatting all the time) so you go into a bunch of smashes and you see the same handles from time to time.
Now I have, personally, witnessed on 4 occasions now people who I would refer to as somewhere in the "Super Casual", "Not Terribly Good", "DPS = 0 When you're a Corpse" ranges....but now we have the new devices and the lockboxes. So now I see these same 4 people waltz into the alert and basically solo it with everyone else in the alert just there as a pet/decoration(myself included). Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for success and I do not believe that the problem here is that the bad become good(I help newbies and vets alike with my opinions on how to do things whenever asked) but with spending 50-100 bucks(they told me and it's their money and their right to spend it) they've gone from "Faceplants McGee" to "God of Alerts" with little to no actual improvement of their playing ability, builds, gear, powers, or anything. It's the devices doing all the work and even that is beyond easy-mode really. So, in it's most basic definition..they paid and now they win.
I, as a vet, cannot help but see some of the things on Live and PTS(not all of which are bad, mind you) and see the beginnings of a pattern which I believe could lead down a road far far worse than Cryptic ever could have thought the Elite Blue SL Secondaries were when it comes to power. I guess my actual fear is that CO devolves from "Be the Hero You Want to Be(within some basic build/synergy guidelines, of course) to "Hero Schmero, Be the Device packing Vechicle driving God of Destruction we want you to be." In this reguard...I very much pray I am proven wrong. I simply do not want Freeform to become obsolete since it is, IMO, one of the 3 main pillars of this game.
Ok, longwinded post with lots of words. If you read through it all then thanks and I look forward to your reply.
P.S. Could we please put these devices back on the mobs that used to drop them prior to On Alert? As sad as it may sound, for many(myself included) this WAS the Endgame...and now it's gone. Please bring it back as an option for those who choose to endure that path. :biggrin:
Ok, for starters I must say I like the level of communication(and how it's sometimes quite candid vs. corporate in it's delivery). IMO, not sucking up, but I think you are easily on the fast track to being the best person CO has ever had to hold your particular position as CR. Please keep it up. :biggrin:
Now onto the reply bit...
This I understand and can agree with because it makes sense.
This I do not understand and perhaps you could ellaborate. See, my opinion on this is that CS and APs were part of the leverage system to encourage people to go gold and pay for a sub. The more incentives, while still giving away some new things for free, that a gold/LTS sub offer...the more appealing they are to the potential buyer.
This I dissagree with because I see do not see Grab Bags, Lock Boxes, or Travel Powers as Content in all honesty. Content, in it's basest form to me, is like we used to have in the low levels when we could choose to go to Westside, Desert Crisis, and/or Canada Crisis....which now we only have one of those options. Content is places to go, things to see, and missions/lairs to run with reasons to do them.
I agree completely with you on Be-critters being vanity/rp/goofing off items and not pay to win.....for now. I also agree that Mods are not game-breaking. My fear in this statement is how long your statement will be true and...looking at PTS and Live....I see this particular landscape changing in a not-so-positive fashion to be honest.
Since PTS can change at the drop of a hat(which I am hoping occurs....ALOT) I will give you a Live example that I have personally witnessed more than once recently. I have a new toon. He's a Mecha-Sumo who uses Unarmed MA with the Darkness Advs and some Darkness powers. I choose not to run Alerts until I am lvl 15 with 3 Superstats because it is my opinion that sub-15s are dead weight in most, not all, situations in reguards to Alerts(this could be another debate for another time but for now let's just say that's my opinion and this is how I, personally, choose to handle it by how I handle myself ingame). Now the CO Community is not super huge so most vets know most other vets quite well(even if they're not all on the best speaking terms or chatting all the time) so you go into a bunch of smashes and you see the same handles from time to time.
Now I have, personally, witnessed on 4 occasions now people who I would refer to as somewhere in the "Super Casual", "Not Terribly Good", "DPS = 0 When you're a Corpse" ranges....but now we have the new devices and the lockboxes. So now I see these same 4 people waltz into the alert and basically solo it with everyone else in the alert just there as a pet/decoration(myself included). Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for success and I do not believe that the problem here is that the bad become good(I help newbies and vets alike with my opinions on how to do things whenever asked) but with spending 50-100 bucks(they told me and it's their money and their right to spend it) they've gone from "Faceplants McGee" to "God of Alerts" with little to no actual improvement of their playing ability, builds, gear, powers, or anything. It's the devices doing all the work and even that is beyond easy-mode really. So, in it's most basic definition..they paid and now they win.
I, as a vet, cannot help but see some of the things on Live and PTS(not all of which are bad, mind you) and see the beginnings of a pattern which I believe could lead down a road far far worse than Cryptic ever could have thought the Elite Blue SL Secondaries were when it comes to power. I guess my actual fear is that CO devolves from "Be the Hero You Want to Be(within some basic build/synergy guidelines, of course) to "Hero Schmero, Be the Device packing Vechicle driving God of Destruction we want you to be." In this reguard...I very much pray I am proven wrong. I simply do not want Freeform to become obsolete since it is, IMO, one of the 3 main pillars of this game.
Ok, longwinded post with lots of words. If you read through it all then thanks and I look forward to your reply.
P.S. Could we please put these devices back on the mobs that used to drop them prior to On Alert? As sad as it may sound, for many(myself included) this WAS the Endgame...and now it's gone. Please bring it back as an option for those who choose to endure that path. :biggrin:
*Edited to correct errors, nothing more.
Complete and total agreement. Well put.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
This I dissagree with because I see do not see Grab Bags, Lock Boxes, or Travel Powers as Content in all honesty.
I disagree on this point. It is content. I will, however, agree that it isn't satisfying content especially in the long run, which is what I believe your point is.
I don't believe it's content either. It's not something for everyone to enjoy, it's not something that benefits the game or story, it's not even something you can use for every one on your account unless they buy it too. It's a shiny in a store. Calling lockboxes and the occasional travel power content is like calling Bugs and imbalance content. They get put in with every patch, sometimes they make me super powerful, sometimes they have cool visual effects, but just because something is added to the game doesn't make it "new content". And to be honest, "new content" lately is usually too bugged or forgotten entirely by Cryptic a few months after when the money slows. I wouldn't mind them so much if we were getting something worthwhile in the meantime. All i hear is that these things bring in revenue to fund new content or cool new things, but those cool new things never happen or turn out to be new store shinies and not the quality content we were hyped on.
Quality is something both CO and STO have been seriously lacking lately, and unless something is done to fix this, it's not going to end well for either game.
For what its worth, your description of grab bags is easily related to CCGs:
Grab bags (or CCGs)
>Buy a grab bag or CCG packet because you want the valuable items that might be in it.
>Get only heaps of junk that you don't need, or can't use, and that you are unlikely to be able to trade for anything of worth to you..
>Don't get a single thing of what you were aiming for.
Hmm, my exact experience of collectible miniature packets as well as collectible card packs.
Yes you are guaranteed cards, but you are not guaranteed cards that you can use or that have any trade value.
Well, i guess the system in America is different then, here. If you're buying Collectible Card Game packs. Each and every one of them is Collectible, whether they are the plain one or special hologram shiny card, where you can also buy a sleeve book that has spaces for 1 of each card type. My understanding is. if you're only buying card packs for the rare gold shiny one. why are you even collecting these cards to start with if the rest have no meaning to you?
Oh, and here you can take repeats back, and swap an equal amount for a new pack. As long as you don't damage the cards you're taking back, or swap with someone else you might know. So that's my response to "you only get junk and can't get rid of".
I disagree on this point. It is content. I will, however, agree that it isn't satisfying content especially in the long run, which is what I believe your point is.
It's not content, it's contempt. Just as i am about these bags/boxes.
Well, i guess the system in America is different then, here. If you're buying Collectible Card Game packs. Each and every one of them is Collectible, whether they are the plain one or special hologram shiny card, where you can also buy a sleeve book that has spaces for 1 of each card type. My understanding is. if you're only buying card packs for the rare gold shiny one. why are you even collecting these cards to start with if the rest have no meaning to you?
Oh, and here you can take repeats back, and swap an equal amount for a new pack. As long as you don't damage the cards you're taking back, or swap with someone else you might know. So that's my response to "you only get junk and can't get rid of".
Yeah I guess the system here in the U.S. is different then. Technically anything is collectible, if you find value in having large numbers of extremely common cards, or pieces of gravel, or scraps of pocket lint, or anything else that is technically collectible, you can "collect" them.
My understanding, and experience, is that eventually you just dont need any more of those really common cards/miniatures/etc that people often just throw away because there is no real benefit in having large numbers of them...and neither do the people you might want to swap with.
Here there isnt much swapping power in the massive numbers of common repeats that you can end up with when buying collectibles of these sorts. Oh, and stores here dont accept open extras in exchange for new packs.
There are three answers to this. First is that grab bags and lock boxes make money. Champions Online is ultimately a business, and we have to follow the money. It's the honest truth.
But it doesn't really seem like an honest dollar. We all understand the pursuit of $$$$ but it's how you go about it that makes your reputation good or bad
You don't publish the odds either. It very much seems like gambling and maybe the ESRB should re-evaluate this game for 18+. Also slap a warning on it for people with gambling addictions.
What if everyone followed the grab bag model? You walk into the grocery store for some Milk but you find you have to buy a Dairy Grab Bag, cuz they just don't sell milk individually on demand anymore. $75 bucks later you are walking home with a lot of Sour Cream and cheese, but no milk...yet.:rolleyes:
But it doesn't really seem like an honest dollar. We all understand the pursuit of $$$$ but it's how you go about it that makes your reputation good or bad
You don't publish the odds either. It very much seems like gambling and maybe the ESRB should re-evaluate this game for 18+. Also slap a warning on it for people with gambling addictions.
What if everyone followed the grab bag model? You walk into the grocery store for some Milk but you find you have to buy a Dairy Grab Bag, cuz they just don't sell milk individually on demand anymore. $75 bucks later you are walking home with a lot of Sour Cream and cheese, but no milk...yet.:rolleyes:
Does CO still have an ESRB rating now that there is no box purchase required to play the game ?
So... the only way to open these numerous boxes I keep finding... is to dole out a load of cash?? That's almost as aggressive as streetside beggars walking up and demanding cash because SURELY I must have some.
Guess I'll start selling them... or destroying them if I can't sell them.
Bad move. Seriously, seriously bad move. That's like handing someone a birthday present wrapped in duct tape & twine and saying, "Give me $10 and I'll give you a pair of scissors." Trick or Treat? Looks like we got a trick, this year.
If the keys were rare drops, or maybe only dropped by Master Villains or Cosmic Villains... okay. That would be acceptable. That would be more like it. THIS is just... not fun.
I haven't read through the entire thread, so pardon if this has already been suggested.
Instead of just the z-store keys, why not have them drop from bosses as well? It could be a low drop rate, still trade-able, and it would promote more trips to the instanced areas of the game.
Also reinvigorate the events and their bosses.
At the moment, Halloween is pretty boring. The only reason to try and get Tako up is for the chance at a Dark Aura. Adding these keys to his loot table would encourage more players to participate in the event.
You can keep them in the store, which would allow those unwilling to grind the option of buying them.
If the plan is to include more of these lockboxes, not just on Halloween, then this option would likely decrease the outcry against them. Endgame is pretty dead right now, there's not that much to do. Loot is usually enough of a motivator for people to go back to old content.
As I haven't seen any indication that there will be new content (beyond costumes/travel powers), this would give those of us hanging out at lvl40 something to do.
First, Cryptic's had plenty of opportunity to add keys to the drop tables in STO and hasn't done it, so it is very unlikely they will do it here.
Second, grab bags/boxes don't fall under the definition of "gambling" in the USA, primarily because current laws allow PWE to claim that Zen is worthless even if you paid for it with money (it walks like a gift card and quacks like a gift card... but the law allows you to not call it a gift card). This means that the ESRB won't classify it as gambling. It doesn't even count as a "gambling reference" because you're not literally playing a virtual slot machine, poker, etcetera. Believe me, we already tried to do this with STO and that's the response we got.
That said, there IS a way to make "golden keys" work for subscribers (where subscribers can open boxes for free). Cryptic would merely need to copy/paste a separate loot table for people who open boxes with the golden key, and make each and every item bound and subscriber-usable only. On the plus side (from Cryptic's perspective), this would prevent people from using a single-month sub to open thousands of boxes (for themselves or for friends), maintain the value of the items inside the boxes for non-subscribers, and possibly boost the Auction House value of the boxes themselves. The only downside for Cryptic would be that it would be slightly less irritating to open thousands of boxes at once to derive the drop odds, but people can do that already via the test server.
edit: I don't know what kind of tech exists for this on Cryptic's end, but to implement the "subscriber-only item" feature, I'd suggest having the items require a special buff to be equipped, a buff which would be applied passively to subscriber characters. Alternatively, all the items provide a significant debuff when equipped, and subscribing gives you protection against the effect.
I would like to address the people who insist that vehicles aren't 'superhero'.
This is the stupidest argument I've heard against them. Champions Online told me I could Be the Hero I wanted to Be, not the one you want me to be. If you do your research, and know anything about comic books- about half of the characters in comics do use a vehicle of some sort. This variety ranges from Ghost Rider's motorcycle, The X-Men's X-Jet, The Bat-X vehicles, Punisher's van, Wonder Woman's invisible Jet, Fantastic Four's Fantasticar, etc. If you don't think vehicles are a part of comic book heroes, then you obviously don't know a damned thing about comics.
I want to see these kind of arguments STOP. While some concepts in CO are a bit tiresome (Demons and WoD Vampires, looking at you)- you can't sit and say what is a comic book character and what isn't. In case you haven't noticed, the options for creating a unique traditional hero in this game are quite limited- much like most of the powers, origins, etc. Hell, the idea of traditional heroes is nearly dead in comics, anyway. You have absolutely NOTHING that gives you the right to say what does or does not belong in this game when people create their characters, and if you don't think so I highly suggest you join the dolts who think vehicles don't belong in hero settings and spend some time actually READING comics instead of taking a metaphorical deuce on your keyboard, calling it a thought, and posting it.
I don't like furries as characters. I don't think people should be denied the right to make them (though I would like CO to get rid of these horrible and stupid animal heads, and replace them with something that looks less idiotic).
Does CO still have an ESRB rating now that there is no box purchase required to play the game ?
On steam, CO is still advertised with an ESRB rating in the video. It's rating says Teen. Blood, Drug reference, Fantasy Violence and Suggestive Themes. Granted, i don't know how ESRB regulates with if it's only bought physically etc, or even free with in game stores and that, but an out of date video still giving a rating with new changes left out, and still used as their advertisement video to lure people in would be misleading to say the least.
I would like to address the people who insist that vehicles aren't 'superhero'.
This is the stupidest argument I've heard against them. Champions Online told me I could Be the Hero I wanted to Be, not the one you want me to be. If you do your research, and know anything about comic books- about half of the characters in comics do use a vehicle of some sort. This variety ranges from Ghost Rider's motorcycle, The X-Men's X-Jet, The Bat-X vehicles, Punisher's van, Wonder Woman's invisible Jet, Fantastic Four's Fantasticar, etc. If you don't think vehicles are a part of comic book heroes, then you obviously don't know a damned thing about comics.
I want to see these kind of arguments STOP.
Too bad really. If you don't want to read them you certainly are free to avoid doing so.
While some concepts in CO are a bit tiresome (Demons and WoD Vampires, looking at you)-
you can't sit and say what is a comic book character and what isn't.
Sure they can.
In case you haven't noticed, the options for creating a unique traditional hero in this game are quite limited- much like most of the powers, origins, etc. Hell, the idea of traditional heroes is nearly dead in comics, anyway.
You have absolutely NOTHING that gives you the right to say
You are mistaken. Cryptic gives forum goers the right to post such so long as they do not violate the rules of the forums.
what does or does not belong in this game when people create their characters, and if you don't think so I highly suggest you join the dolts who think vehicles don't belong in hero settings and spend some time actually READING comics instead of taking a metaphorical deuce on your keyboard, calling it a thought, and posting it.
I don't like furries as characters. I don't think people should be denied the right to make them (though I would like CO to get rid of these horrible and stupid animal heads, and replace them with something that looks less idiotic).
Agreed about the animal heads (for themost part) in CO. Also agreed that there is a place for vehicles in a game based on a comic book genre.
I would like CO to get rid of these horrible and stupid animal heads, and replace them with something that looks less idiotic.
Agreed. I don't like the wolfes in power armour too.
Perhaps a day, we will see a blue aqua wolf. This would be a concept.
Zoo Online, be the animal you want to be. :biggrin:
Comments
Someone had to spend time doing this, Dev time was wasted on this junk.
You can argue it didn't take much time or 'oh well STO had it so it was easy' that BS! We've asked for things, fairly simple things, that STO has that we actually wanted.. and we're told 'it's not that easy' or 'it takes more Dev time than you think'.
Well clearly that's not true if they really want to do something, including this.... stuff
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
This is absolutely the only thing PWE/Cryptic will listen to.
It doesn't matter how much the forums explode or how much people complain about the boxes. As long as $MoneyFromKeys is greater than $MoneyLostFromPeopleWhoHateKeys, the keys will stay.
Furthermore, if the keys are a big success, you can bet that PWE is going to push the dev team to lock more and more new content behind them, like they've done in STO. Their efforts will be focused on making new costumes/items/vehicles for us to gamble for instead of creating new stuff for us to actually do. I wouldn't mind paying for new missions, but I know as well as PWE does that mission content doesn't generate the same monetary returns as pooping out a new Helm of Pwnage +5 and throwing it in a gamble box.
Sure.
While this time, dcuo will have on their next update the hideouts, as we don't have the crafting room or training room the CO devs promised to us in the summer 2011.
I don't even speak of the new missions the update will have on top of the hideouts.
Hope to have some new missions here is a dream. If Cryptic do missions, it's missions without scenario, with only a lot of grind to drop some salvage tokens to buy items with an extensive salvage price to force people to buy zens and buy grab bags.
While this time, Cryptic have often say to us that their games use the same engine and for this reason could exchange their feature from one to other. And Sto will have soon the sidekick system from CO, but we always don't have the sg bases, the forge, the content, etc... from this other game.
While this time, we have lockboxes, we have grab bags, and just a poor 10 mns alert every two months when other games have new maps, new lairs, at every update.
The grab gabs was a success because they are here since their first iteration.
This money be used for what ? Which content ?
Other things to sell in store and almost nothing more. But devs working on the lockboxes.
It's awesome.
There are things I'd much rather see the graphic artists working on than hideout rooms I can't use. Maybe a new sewer layout or two, or a warehouse that doesn't look like it must house spare 737 fuselages for Boeing...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I only wanted the salvage and I got two good devices to make up for it, but good GOD... FIVE OF THEM?! On a level 40 character? I guess I'll go get a team of lowbies and gather them up in one place and give them a free 20% XP boost, but good lord, I can't even give them to a new character of my own!
Crafting and training rooms was an exemple. My preferences are a trophy room which gives an interest for the perks. It's the only thing which can give a "playable" interest to hideouts.
If you want to know my opinion about that, the graphist artists should work on new endgame lairs (as therakiel) or new maps, instead of 10 mns alerts which disappear after one week and come back for a week, one month later, or fluff as the hideouts, or instead of working on the nwo content but this is another thread.
But the points you are missed was that Cryptic create useless features because they aren't finished as hideouts, when others games create content at the same time. (raids, instances, episodes, etc...)
And as we have almost no new playable content since this time (far from the content they had in the other games), the others games had more playable content AND have the same feature than us now.
It's ridiculous.
And why the exchange of features between the cryptic games are always in the same way, Co => Sto and not the opposite, was the second point. (Sidekick, etc.... even some musics on sto are Co's musics, i'd laugh when i've played at sto and hear them, they even grab us some musics, but Co don't have any of their musics, even those who aren't licensed as star trek musics. How many time to put a new mp3 in a zone in co and have more variety? 2 mns for a dev when they already have the file?)
But this can't be sold in store, then...
Now onto the reply bit...
This I understand and can agree with because it makes sense.
This I do not understand and perhaps you could ellaborate. See, my opinion on this is that CS and APs were part of the leverage system to encourage people to go gold and pay for a sub. The more incentives, while still giving away some new things for free, that a gold/LTS sub offer...the more appealing they are to the potential buyer.
This I dissagree with because I see do not see Grab Bags, Lock Boxes, or Travel Powers as Content in all honesty. Content, in it's basest form to me, is like we used to have in the low levels when we could choose to go to Westside, Desert Crisis, and/or Canada Crisis....which now we only have one of those options. Content is places to go, things to see, and missions/lairs to run with reasons to do them.
I agree completely with you on Be-critters being vanity/rp/goofing off items and not pay to win.....for now. I also agree that Mods are not game-breaking. My fear in this statement is how long your statement will be true and...looking at PTS and Live....I see this particular landscape changing in a not-so-positive fashion to be honest.
Since PTS can change at the drop of a hat(which I am hoping occurs....ALOT) I will give you a Live example that I have personally witnessed more than once recently. I have a new toon. He's a Mecha-Sumo who uses Unarmed MA with the Darkness Advs and some Darkness powers. I choose not to run Alerts until I am lvl 15 with 3 Superstats because it is my opinion that sub-15s are dead weight in most, not all, situations in reguards to Alerts(this could be another debate for another time but for now let's just say that's my opinion and this is how I, personally, choose to handle it by how I handle myself ingame). Now the CO Community is not super huge so most vets know most other vets quite well(even if they're not all on the best speaking terms or chatting all the time) so you go into a bunch of smashes and you see the same handles from time to time.
Now I have, personally, witnessed on 4 occasions now people who I would refer to as somewhere in the "Super Casual", "Not Terribly Good", "DPS = 0 When you're a Corpse" ranges....but now we have the new devices and the lockboxes. So now I see these same 4 people waltz into the alert and basically solo it with everyone else in the alert just there as a pet/decoration(myself included). Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for success and I do not believe that the problem here is that the bad become good(I help newbies and vets alike with my opinions on how to do things whenever asked) but with spending 50-100 bucks(they told me and it's their money and their right to spend it) they've gone from "Faceplants McGee" to "God of Alerts" with little to no actual improvement of their playing ability, builds, gear, powers, or anything. It's the devices doing all the work and even that is beyond easy-mode really. So, in it's most basic definition..they paid and now they win.
I, as a vet, cannot help but see some of the things on Live and PTS(not all of which are bad, mind you) and see the beginnings of a pattern which I believe could lead down a road far far worse than Cryptic ever could have thought the Elite Blue SL Secondaries were when it comes to power. I guess my actual fear is that CO devolves from "Be the Hero You Want to Be(within some basic build/synergy guidelines, of course) to "Hero Schmero, Be the Device packing Vechicle driving God of Destruction we want you to be." In this reguard...I very much pray I am proven wrong. I simply do not want Freeform to become obsolete since it is, IMO, one of the 3 main pillars of this game.
Ok, longwinded post with lots of words. If you read through it all then thanks and I look forward to your reply.
P.S. Could we please put these devices back on the mobs that used to drop them prior to On Alert? As sad as it may sound, for many(myself included) this WAS the Endgame...and now it's gone. Please bring it back as an option for those who choose to endure that path. :biggrin:
*Edited to correct errors, nothing more.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I expressed no such conclusion.
For what its worth, your description of grab bags is easily related to CCGs:
Grab bags (or CCGs)
>Buy a grab bag or CCG packet because you want the valuable items that might be in it.
>Get only heaps of junk that you don't need, or can't use, and that you are unlikely to be able to trade for anything of worth to you..
>Don't get a single thing of what you were aiming for.
Hmm, my exact experience of collectible miniature packets as well as collectible card packs.
Yes you are guaranteed cards, but you are not guaranteed cards that you can use or that have any trade value.
Quoted to increase its visibility !
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Complete and total agreement. Well put.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I disagree on this point. It is content. I will, however, agree that it isn't satisfying content especially in the long run, which is what I believe your point is.
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Quality is something both CO and STO have been seriously lacking lately, and unless something is done to fix this, it's not going to end well for either game.
Content, for mmos, has ALWAYS meant something you do - missions/exploration etc...
items, costumes, devices, powers, abilities etc are additions to the game but NOT content!
Well, i guess the system in America is different then, here. If you're buying Collectible Card Game packs. Each and every one of them is Collectible, whether they are the plain one or special hologram shiny card, where you can also buy a sleeve book that has spaces for 1 of each card type. My understanding is. if you're only buying card packs for the rare gold shiny one. why are you even collecting these cards to start with if the rest have no meaning to you?
Oh, and here you can take repeats back, and swap an equal amount for a new pack. As long as you don't damage the cards you're taking back, or swap with someone else you might know. So that's my response to "you only get junk and can't get rid of".
It's not content, it's contempt. Just as i am about these bags/boxes.
Yeah I guess the system here in the U.S. is different then. Technically anything is collectible, if you find value in having large numbers of extremely common cards, or pieces of gravel, or scraps of pocket lint, or anything else that is technically collectible, you can "collect" them.
My understanding, and experience, is that eventually you just dont need any more of those really common cards/miniatures/etc that people often just throw away because there is no real benefit in having large numbers of them...and neither do the people you might want to swap with.
Here there isnt much swapping power in the massive numbers of common repeats that you can end up with when buying collectibles of these sorts. Oh, and stores here dont accept open extras in exchange for new packs.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
But it doesn't really seem like an honest dollar. We all understand the pursuit of $$$$ but it's how you go about it that makes your reputation good or bad
You don't publish the odds either. It very much seems like gambling and maybe the ESRB should re-evaluate this game for 18+. Also slap a warning on it for people with gambling addictions.
What if everyone followed the grab bag model? You walk into the grocery store for some Milk but you find you have to buy a Dairy Grab Bag, cuz they just don't sell milk individually on demand anymore. $75 bucks later you are walking home with a lot of Sour Cream and cheese, but no milk...yet.:rolleyes:
Does CO still have an ESRB rating now that there is no box purchase required to play the game ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Guess I'll start selling them... or destroying them if I can't sell them.
Bad move. Seriously, seriously bad move. That's like handing someone a birthday present wrapped in duct tape & twine and saying, "Give me $10 and I'll give you a pair of scissors." Trick or Treat? Looks like we got a trick, this year.
If the keys were rare drops, or maybe only dropped by Master Villains or Cosmic Villains... okay. That would be acceptable. That would be more like it. THIS is just... not fun.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Instead of just the z-store keys, why not have them drop from bosses as well? It could be a low drop rate, still trade-able, and it would promote more trips to the instanced areas of the game.
Also reinvigorate the events and their bosses.
At the moment, Halloween is pretty boring. The only reason to try and get Tako up is for the chance at a Dark Aura. Adding these keys to his loot table would encourage more players to participate in the event.
You can keep them in the store, which would allow those unwilling to grind the option of buying them.
If the plan is to include more of these lockboxes, not just on Halloween, then this option would likely decrease the outcry against them. Endgame is pretty dead right now, there's not that much to do. Loot is usually enough of a motivator for people to go back to old content.
As I haven't seen any indication that there will be new content (beyond costumes/travel powers), this would give those of us hanging out at lvl40 something to do.
Just a suggestion.
I am not sure...if not maybe we could get some of those skanky costume parts and skin tones back
Oh wait, be careful what I ask for.
First, Cryptic's had plenty of opportunity to add keys to the drop tables in STO and hasn't done it, so it is very unlikely they will do it here.
Second, grab bags/boxes don't fall under the definition of "gambling" in the USA, primarily because current laws allow PWE to claim that Zen is worthless even if you paid for it with money (it walks like a gift card and quacks like a gift card... but the law allows you to not call it a gift card). This means that the ESRB won't classify it as gambling. It doesn't even count as a "gambling reference" because you're not literally playing a virtual slot machine, poker, etcetera. Believe me, we already tried to do this with STO and that's the response we got.
That said, there IS a way to make "golden keys" work for subscribers (where subscribers can open boxes for free). Cryptic would merely need to copy/paste a separate loot table for people who open boxes with the golden key, and make each and every item bound and subscriber-usable only. On the plus side (from Cryptic's perspective), this would prevent people from using a single-month sub to open thousands of boxes (for themselves or for friends), maintain the value of the items inside the boxes for non-subscribers, and possibly boost the Auction House value of the boxes themselves. The only downside for Cryptic would be that it would be slightly less irritating to open thousands of boxes at once to derive the drop odds, but people can do that already via the test server.
edit: I don't know what kind of tech exists for this on Cryptic's end, but to implement the "subscriber-only item" feature, I'd suggest having the items require a special buff to be equipped, a buff which would be applied passively to subscriber characters. Alternatively, all the items provide a significant debuff when equipped, and subscribing gives you protection against the effect.
This is the stupidest argument I've heard against them. Champions Online told me I could Be the Hero I wanted to Be, not the one you want me to be. If you do your research, and know anything about comic books- about half of the characters in comics do use a vehicle of some sort. This variety ranges from Ghost Rider's motorcycle, The X-Men's X-Jet, The Bat-X vehicles, Punisher's van, Wonder Woman's invisible Jet, Fantastic Four's Fantasticar, etc. If you don't think vehicles are a part of comic book heroes, then you obviously don't know a damned thing about comics.
I want to see these kind of arguments STOP. While some concepts in CO are a bit tiresome (Demons and WoD Vampires, looking at you)- you can't sit and say what is a comic book character and what isn't. In case you haven't noticed, the options for creating a unique traditional hero in this game are quite limited- much like most of the powers, origins, etc. Hell, the idea of traditional heroes is nearly dead in comics, anyway. You have absolutely NOTHING that gives you the right to say what does or does not belong in this game when people create their characters, and if you don't think so I highly suggest you join the dolts who think vehicles don't belong in hero settings and spend some time actually READING comics instead of taking a metaphorical deuce on your keyboard, calling it a thought, and posting it.
I don't like furries as characters. I don't think people should be denied the right to make them (though I would like CO to get rid of these horrible and stupid animal heads, and replace them with something that looks less idiotic).
On steam, CO is still advertised with an ESRB rating in the video. It's rating says Teen. Blood, Drug reference, Fantasy Violence and Suggestive Themes. Granted, i don't know how ESRB regulates with if it's only bought physically etc, or even free with in game stores and that, but an out of date video still giving a rating with new changes left out, and still used as their advertisement video to lure people in would be misleading to say the least.
The Team-XP boost should be tradeable or account based as it is useless on a level 40.
Stuffy on the old CO forums. PWE ate my username.
That was worst "Favor" for all endgamers. xD
Agreed about the animal heads (for themost part) in CO. Also agreed that there is a place for vehicles in a game based on a comic book genre.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Cool, thanks. I was curious as I really have no idea how the ESRB works.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Agreed. I don't like the wolfes in power armour too.
Perhaps a day, we will see a blue aqua wolf. This would be a concept.
Zoo Online, be the animal you want to be. :biggrin: