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Game Breaking Bugs and PTS testing

wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
edited September 2012 in Champions Online Discussion
To all who have experienced frustrations, traumas, withdrawal symptoms, outbursts from the recent spate of bugs, let's take a step back and take a deep breath. There are quite a number of major changes to CO over the last few months. We are not talking about new APs or CSs but fundamental game mechanic changes and a new open map event. When the fundamental mechanics of a game is changed, the impact runs through the land. Even though the major shockwaves are over, minor tremors still continue to ripple and are felt in various areas.

While grappling with the less severe bugs popping up, the devs are also trying to introduce new mechanics (like stealth and sneak) and major event like the invasion. Unfortunately, such new introductions also require quite a bit of considerations and coding. There are bound to be bugs which need to be worked out. The devs have a few ways to reduce this. More rigourous scrutiny of the codes (not foolproof) which will mean even more delay for new things to be introduced or testing. Pay to test is not of course profitable or in the company's interest. However open testing may kill the impact of an event or anything which is supposed to be new.

At the moment, we have too few people in PTS who are actually testing out the new releases and it is impossible to simulate anything close to when the new introduction goes live. Hence bugs do slip through. The Live shard becomes almost like the test shard. If things do not go well, take it off and try to fix it. This is bad because the damage done may be irreversable. Even a rollback (assuming there is a backup) will still have impacts on players who have gain anything during the rollout.

As such, I strongly urge gold players to be more active in helping to test in PTS and also the devs to occasionally open the PTS for silver players when you need larger numbers to help in the testing.
Post edited by wesleytansg on
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Comments

  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The sad thing is, the crashing issue was posted in PTS, if I'm not mistaken.

    A significant number of custume/tailor bugs could be dealt with in the PTS if they opened the tailor up for us.
  • nazacanazaca Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    As such, I strongly urge gold players to be more active in helping to test in PTS

    How to put this ...

    I will not spend hours of my time doing something that I do not necessarily enjoy simply to be brushed off, dismissed and ignored. Most especially, I shall not do this when I could instead be doing that which I enjoy (and have paid for!) absent sufficient compensation or reward. Cryptic does not offer adequate amounts of either; in fact, Cryptic charges for the 'privilege' of accessing the test server! As such? No thanks. The effects of doing so are not worth the effort of doing so.
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  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    nazaca wrote: »
    How to put this ...

    I will not spend hours of my time doing something that I do not necessarily enjoy simply to be brushed off, dismissed and ignored. Most especially, I shall not do this when I could instead be doing that which I enjoy (and have paid for!) absent sufficient compensation or reward. Cryptic does not offer adequate amounts of either; in fact, Cryptic charges for the 'privilege' of accessing the test server! As such? No thanks. The effects of doing so are not worth the effort of doing so.

    This ^ and this:

    Oh and could you give proper rewards for testing stuff on PTS. I'm fed up with getting rare drops on PTS only to realize that it's not LIVE. I mean you get NOTHING on PTS. All the G, Questionite, XP, Items, Costume drops etc. you could potentially get will remain on the PTS. Why should I bother testing stuff for you? I don't mean to be rude but do you guys work for free because I don't? O_o. (I'm referring to the DEVS btw)
  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    nazaca wrote: »
    How to put this ...

    I will not spend hours of my time doing something that I do not necessarily enjoy simply to be brushed off, dismissed and ignored.
    If you have been reading the PTS forums, you know that I've been pretty active over there for months but lately I've been feeling like nazaca.

    Cryptic you have been doing an unacceptable job at keeping game breaking bugs off live servers. There is no way to sugar coat this situation.

    I could go on, but its clear by now that it wont make any difference.:frown:

    EDIT:

    To the OP:
    The problem is NOT the PTS testers. They have been doing a great job and have caught and reported the majority of major and minor bugs. If all the bugs that the PTS testers were fixed, then this thread and others like it would not exist.

    The Bug issue is the fault of the devs not fixing bugs not that the PTS testers aren't finding them.
    If the PTS tester population is dwindling, its because they are frustrated and giving up because their bug finding efforts are being ignored and because there is NO reward system for PTS testing.


    Don't blame the victim.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'd say we had some good testing of this event on the PTS. Some good feedback was given, and I do feel that Devs responded to it. Not just forum feedback, but talking with us on the PTS as well.

    And as far as I recall, this "set to level 1" bug didn't pop it's ugly head up at all on the PTS. So don't blame the Devs for ignoring it.
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  • somebobsomebob Posts: 980 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    kallethen wrote: »
    I'd say we had some good testing of this event on the PTS. Some good feedback was given, and I do feel that Devs responded to it. Not just forum feedback, but talking with us on the PTS as well.

    And as far as I recall, this "set to level 1" bug didn't pop it's ugly head up at all on the PTS. So don't blame the Devs for ignoring it.

    Agreed on both counts. We were actively helping the devs (Gentleman_Crush and Trailturtle both showed up with us) test the crash bug, and after multiple small patches, it looked like it was fixed. Looked like it needed one last little thing fixed.

    And we never encountered the Level 1 bug while testing. No doubt this would have been reported and fixed if it was.

    Keep in mind, this event was delayed an entire week in an attempt to fix things. Nobody is perfect.
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  • trailturtletrailturtle Administrator Posts: 5,496 Perfect World Employee
    edited September 2012
    The Level 1 bug blindsided everyone involved, no question there. The last build or two on PTS had fixes that reduced the incidence of crashes to zero. The PTS system does help, but I'm certainly doing some thinking of my own about today and how I can help avoid any repeats.
  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    kallethen wrote: »
    And as far as I recall, this "set to level 1" bug didn't pop it's ugly head up at all on the PTS. So don't blame the Devs for ignoring it.
    That may be the case but in general the devs haven't been fixing bugs caught by PTS testers.

    I personally reported many of the bugs involved with the APs/nemesis as i was solo testing various power sets updates like PA and NW recently. Ive been testing and posting since the 1st melee patch.

    This is a long standing trend that spiked shortly after (the surprisingly stable) "On Alert" patch. I don't expect the game to be completely bug free but shortly after On alert, things really went to **** . This isn't even counting the power related bugs that pop up all the time.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The Level 1 bug blindsided everyone involved, no question there. The last build or two on PTS had fixes that reduced the incidence of crashes to zero. The PTS system does help, but I'm certainly doing some thinking of my own about today and how I can help avoid any repeats.

    Good to see you here, but i would feel a little better if the Cryptic would not just acknowledge this specific bug but the fact that game breaking bugs hitting live has been a trend for the past few months and the majority of them went live despite being reported.

    This is an ongoing problem not an isolated indecent.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • rapierwhiprapierwhip Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Long time PTS users (And I have been there off and on for years) have gotten severely discouraged over time by reporting bugs, sometimes repeatedly, both in the in-client bug system and here on the forums, only to be completely ignored and the bugs pushed live without so much as a how-do-you-do.

    That being said, not all bugs are found. I was there for the PTS testing of this latest event and there was no hint of the level 1 bug popping up. The problem is that that is the exception not the rule. If the bugs that were popping up on live were not there during the PTS runs, it might be a slightly different story, but the vast majority of all bugs plaguing the live server have been loudly and repeatedly reported on PTS. And almost all have been met with silence and a seeming complete disregard by the devs.

    No, the problem does not lie with the PTS testers, but squarely on the shoulders of whoever makes the decision to push a build to the live servers at a certain time. We who test things on the PTS cannot do anything more than report the bugs as loudly as possible. Beyond that our hands are tied.

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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    In my opinion the testing on PTS went very very good with this event, bugs were found and fixed, balance was adjusted, and the devs made it fun for the players (at least I thought it was fun).
    The remaining bugs were unfortunate, but quickly resolved, and while they were being fixed the communication was good. I am happy with how they handled this all.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    rapierwhip wrote: »
    Long time PTS users (And I have been there off and on for years) have gotten severely discouraged over time by reporting bugs, sometimes repeatedly, both in the in-client bug system and here on the forums, only to be completely ignored and the bugs pushed live without so much as a how-do-you-do.

    That being said, not all bugs are found. I was there for the PTS testing of this latest event and there was no hint of the level 1 bug popping up. The problem is that that is the exception not the rule. If the bugs that were popping up on live were not there during the PTS runs, it might be a slightly different story, but the vast majority of all bugs plaguing the live server have been loudly and repeatedly reported on PTS. And almost all have been met with silence and a seeming complete disregard by the devs.

    No, the problem does not lie with the PTS testers, but squarely on the shoulders of whoever makes the decision to push a build to the live servers at a certain time. We who test things on the PTS cannot do anything more than report the bugs as loudly as possible. Beyond that our hands are tied.

    Yes I can understand with the feelings or long-time PTS testers who feel that their feedback were not address. If we look at the list of bugs reported, it is really long. However, as all things, prioritizing is necessary. Game breaking bugs are a big NO NO. This will be first to be address otherwise the game cannot run. Second, meet the paymasters' deadlines on pushing things out which can bring in the ching ching. Then, if there is time, they may fiddle with the minor bugs.

    This is by no means a mitigating post. However, I just feel that we have to keep the positive energy up for the sake of our game.
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    rapierwhip wrote: »
    No, the problem does not lie with the PTS testers, but squarely on the shoulders of whoever makes the decision to push a build to the live servers at a certain time. We who test things on the PTS cannot do anything more than report the bugs as loudly as possible. Beyond that our hands are tied.
    Speaking as a person who's been involved in the process of software coding in a corporate environment:

    I agree with the above, and would say then that we shouldn't blame the devs. It's probably their own bosses who decide when a patch needs to go out. I'm sure the devs do have some room to hold a patch back, but at the end of the day, a schedule needs to be met, especially if you have other projects that need to get worked on as well.

    And even then, I wouldn't call out the torch-and-pitchfork mob onto the bosses. Deadlines are there for a reason. If they just kept delaying stuff until all bugs were gone, we'd probably not have much going on in the game. I've had to make that exact decision myself.
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  • sorusoru Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I have been playing this game off and on since open beta. The past 3 months I have played as a gold member and almost played it none stop. Spent close to 150 in the past few months and really loved everything you guys have done to help make the game better. Having said that I am heading for greener pastures atm due to a bug that is not allowing me to enjoy the game. Hard to play a game that gives you a server disconnection in the middle of a boss fight, and 15-30 minutes does it again. Sent 3 emails about it getting no response, even though I know you guys get alot of emails. Still from talking to the SG's I'm in and numerous people I have talked to, I'm not the only one feeling this bug. Please listen to my advice and fix known bugs before another release to the live server. It will make the gamers happy and encourage them to spend more money. Costumes and alerts are great, but its kinda like remodeling a car then leaving the engine out of it.
  • helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    soru wrote: »
    Hard to play a game that gives you a server disconnection in the middle of a boss fight, and 15-30 minutes does it again.

    I play CO via a router and get this problem fairly frequently; much more frequently than on other online applications. I find that resetting the router to a different node often times fixes the issue. It's cumbersome, but is the only work around that I've found to be semi-reliable. CO seems to be much less forgiving than many other online applications in its preferences.
  • ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I believe that deadlines are necessary.

    I understand that bugs will be missed.



    My reasons for withdrawing from doing much in the way of testing on PTS are two-fold:

    1) Major, game-breaking, bugs that are reported on PTS go live without acknowledgement or explanation from Cryptic.

    2) The removal of the C-Store from PTS. Ultimately I was willing to perform unpaid QA work for Cryptic because the PTS offered me a number of benefits, including the ability to preview travel powers and such before purchasing.

    With Cryptic's decision to remove elements that benefited me as a player from the PTS my willingness to actually test lessened greatly. I normally dislike the phrase, "slap in the face," but in this case it feels very appropriate.

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  • rapierwhiprapierwhip Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ashensnow wrote: »
    I believe that deadlines are necessary.

    I understand that bugs will be missed.



    My reasons for withdrawing from doing much in the way of testing on PTS are two-fold:

    1) Major, game-breaking, bugs that are reported on PTS go live without acknowledgement or explanation from Cryptic.

    2) The removal of the C-Store from PTS. Ultimately I was willing to perform unpaid QA work for Cryptic because the PTS offered me a number of benefits, including the ability to preview travel powers and such before purchasing.

    With Cryptic's decision to remove elements that benefited me as a player from the PTS my willingness to actually test lessened greatly. I normally dislike the phrase, "slap in the face," but in this case it feels very appropriate.

    The yellow portion is the deal breaker for me... its not just that they go live... its that Cryptic seems to either not hear us or just ignore us. Now since they do look at the forums I can only assume that they do hear us, which means that in order for them to neither do NOR say anything means that they are ignoring us. I will not provide feedback to a fencepost.

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  • crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,444 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The whole level 1 bug reacts the same way that Team Up works on Alerts in general. Sometimes you'll get this message that pops that will ask you to SK to 0. The difference is that Team Up in Zone on live forces it automatically and since its a recently plugged in zone event, it evolved into something worse. Gravitar has its own share of problems.

    The Team Up system is really bugged and what we really need is a Team Up system that works properly and isn't a cluster**** on our UI and for teaming purposes.
  • beldinbeldin Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ashensnow wrote: »
    My reasons for withdrawing from doing much in the way of testing on PTS are two-fold:

    1) Major, game-breaking, bugs that are reported on PTS go live without acknowledgement or explanation from Cryptic.

    2) The removal of the C-Store from PTS. Ultimately I was willing to perform unpaid QA work for Cryptic because the PTS offered me a number of benefits, including the ability to preview travel powers and such before purchasing.

    With Cryptic's decision to remove elements that benefited me as a player from the PTS my willingness to actually test lessened greatly. I normally dislike the phrase, "slap in the face," but in this case it feels very appropriate.

    ^ Very much this.

    And don't forget how Robobo simply told us lies about that it will be back "in the next updates" first
    and later that they just don't wanted it to reactivate before On-Alert goes life.
    This destroyed in the end any faith i had in Cryptic.

    And then there is the reason that the code on PTS seems to be totally different like the
    live server, since we have bugs on PTS that never went live, and we have bugs on live
    that never were on the PTS.

    Example : If you had an old CTP, on PTS you unlock the new Q-Store TPs, on live the old CTP TPs.
    Or the recent scrolling issues in the talents window on PTS .. thanks god we never got that life.
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  • ventaniventani Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Cryptic you have been doing an unacceptable job at keeping game breaking bugs off live servers. There is no way to sugar coat this situation.

    They do a way better job than other companies. I'm not saying they should make it live, but another game I play, caves and lizards (snicker), allow cash making exploits to live virtually every patch. Not only that, certain bugs have languished there for years.
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  • sturmwolf65sturmwolf65 Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Why not some rewardsystem for playing on PTS?
    Cryptic is doing similar things already in STO.
    I would prefer some kind of "veteranstatus" for PTS playtime, with some nice merits or special items (extra costumeslots, special costumunlocks, titles) that you get on live.
  • zahinderzahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Weapon unlock for time on PTS: single melee/heavy melee Wrench.

    That'd rock...
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  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ventani wrote: »
    They do a way better job than other companies. I'm not saying they should make it live, but another game I play, caves and lizards (snicker), allow cash making exploits to live virtually every patch. Not only that, certain bugs have languished there for years.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Especially in customer service.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    As such, I strongly urge gold players to be more active in helping to test in PTS and also the devs to occasionally open the PTS for silver players when you need larger numbers to help in the testing.

    Simply put, no. Many of us were doing that since launch to no avail. Asking more golds to do it (again) or having silvers join in won't fix the problem. Reporting of bugs has never been the problem. Bugs being addressed has been the problem for over 3 years now and more reports aren't going to help.
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  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Why not some rewardsystem for playing on PTS?
    Cryptic is doing similar things already in STO.
    I would prefer some kind of "veteranstatus" for PTS playtime, with some nice merits or special items (extra costumeslots, special costumunlocks, titles) that you get on live.
    Costume unlocks require resources to make.
    Gear, mods, catalysts, even grab bags would be desirable and practical and ez to hand out. Then there's always questionite.

    Some ppl like AFs but I'm not motivated by rewards that don't actually do any thing.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Simply put, no. Many of us were doing that since launch to no avail. Asking more golds to do it (again) or having silvers join in won't fix the problem. Reporting of bugs has never been the problem. Bugs being addressed has been the problem for over 3 years now and more reports aren't going to help.

    It is more than just having more bug reports. As I actually mentioned in a later post, the devs has to prioritize what gets done. Game breaking bugs need to be fixed followed by any other things they have to push out to meet their deadlines. Bugs in less critical areas will usually take a back seat. We cannot claim that no bugs are fixed. They are fixing some of the bugs but why not the hundreds of others that were also reported? Of course we would like as players to have a bug free game environment with new content being pushed out with certain regularities. However this is limited by the reality of manpower, costs and profits.

    The main reason why I request for more players to help in testing is because the problem which surfaced was something which as TT mentioned blindsided everyone who were helping to test. Perhaps had there been more testers the bug could have surfaced. I was also attempting to test the new rampage but had so much difficulty trying to get enough players to come to PTS to help queue. I spent over an hour before managing to get the 10 players to pop the queue.

    Perhaps it is true in the past there were many testers who gave feedback which were ignored leading to frustration (I do not go that far back). However, we do know that for the recent event the devs indeed made the effort to do much more testing themselves.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Simply put, no. Many of us were doing that since launch to no avail. Asking more golds to do it (again) or having silvers join in won't fix the problem. Reporting of bugs has never been the problem. Bugs being addressed has been the problem for over 3 years now and more reports aren't going to help.

    The bugs were addressed actually. They held the update back over a week before it went live, and they patched test up several times during the hold back to address these issues. All the crash bugs were addressed on test, and it was working fine on test. We even had several dozen people helping out with the test. In short, they were addressed, but something is different between test and live now that's causing other things to crop up.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The bugs were addressed actually. They held the update back over a week before it went live, and they patched test up several times during the hold back to address these issues. All the crash bugs were addressed on test, and it was working fine on test. We even had several dozen people helping out with the test. In short, they were addressed, but something is different between test and live now that's causing other things to crop up.
    Perhaps it was caused by the difference between "several dozen people" and a full Zone? The only way to test that, of course, would be to get over a hundred people to log into PTS at once, and nobody seems to be willing to do that unless they get paid (you'd think this game was about mercenaries, not superheroes...).
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    jonsills wrote: »
    Perhaps it was caused by the difference between "several dozen people" and a full Zone? The only way to test that, of course, would be to get over a hundred people to log into PTS at once, and nobody seems to be willing to do that unless they get paid (you'd think this game was about mercenaries, not superheroes...).

    A couple of test we nearly had a full zone a couple of times, so we had several instances. But, just seems even life is conspiring against Cryptic at this point. In short, they were doing everything right ot the best of their abilities and it still went wrong :-/

    Crush even let us play with Blaze and FREON afterwards.
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  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Simply put, no. Many of us were doing that since launch to no avail. Asking more golds to do it (again) or having silvers join in won't fix the problem. Reporting of bugs has never been the problem. Bugs being addressed has been the problem for over 3 years now and more reports aren't going to help.

    Kenpo, I love you, but in this case, I have to ask you to ask yourself if it's a genuine concern, or leftover resentment.

    To everyone else, I ask them to consider that as of late feedback has been leading to more direct changes and bug fixes.

    It's not perfect, and it never will be, but since turtle essentially took over, and even in the past few months prior, it's been a pretty steady improvement of response. I recall people specifically mentioning Drannic and nisdiddums actively working on fixes pointed out, and Crush's presence has been undeniable often taking feedback directly from players in-game. edit: shout out to Robo, and the others who are also big parts but less vocal of the squashing team too /edit

    I get that many of the long time testers are burnt out, and feel that stuff isn't being addressed and certainly some things slip by or are not acknowledged, which sucks, but this time, the level 1 thing, nobody saw that coming, and a lot of this current frustration is stemming directly from that, not from long term bugs. The long term bug issues are being used like in a bad marriage, dredging up things that are only marginally relevant to prove a point in a fit of anger and yelling "you never listen!"

    The problem is focusing on all the feelings of neglect while things are steadily improving is just unproductive resentment. There's a whole new batch of people incoming to the game who aren't yet burnt out, and a steadily improving response to bug fixes. I say, let them have a go.

    Personally, I've even stopped checking the suggestions section because there will be literally nothing new, but they don't need a history lesson and as time goes by, maybe things will change. Not everything, but maybe some things.

    We all thought crafting was not very good. They said they'd look into it. Then 2 years later crafting was replaced. We all wanted a personal space. They didn't have the resources. Then we got hideouts.

    on a side note? This level 1 thing? I wish I had been there for that!! I would LOVE to be able to relevel Pi, with everything he's already got. The RP value would have been IMMENSE. Instead of just a ****ty retcon, for the first time story and gameplay wouldn't have been segregated. "Destroids attacked, something went horribly wrong, and Destroyer looms... our heroes have been depowered... what will they do, who can save us?" Boom. New Player influx, new Super tier champions earn their stripes through hard work instead of being carried and tutored by way overpowered vets, while our gods have to claw and fight their way to the top. Then suddenly, Big Damn Heroes. Our god tier builds are back just in time and all join in to save the day together.

    You want some EPIC superhero story telling? It couldn't have been better if it was on purpose. That's some Infinite Civill Crisis **** right there.

    So that's my positivity for the day. Ima go troll someone now.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    pion01 wrote: »
    Kenpo, I love you, but in this case, I have to ask you to ask yourself if it's a genuine concern, or leftover resentment.

    A bit of both. I have a strong dislike for anyone wasting their time (and QA testing here on PTS is largely a waste of everyone's time) and though I haven't been playing as much lately I haven't disappeared from the boards to see what's been happening. I don't see a massive improvement in the bug reporting, QA, bug fix department. I see the same problems I've been seeing since '09 and to make matters worse the bugs I've seen lately are more destructive than the ones we've just shrugged our shoulder, gritted our teeth and gotten used to. I couldn't just sit idly by and not comment on the suggestion that golds (and silvers) suddenly devote more time to QA testing this game knowing full well what the history has been and what continues to happen.

    Usually bugs are annoyances. I wanted to play yesterday and didn't feel safe logging in because of this latest bug that slipped through the cracks.

    Maybe I'll change my stance when NWN has been out for a bit and perhaps this game some devs back or some new devs added to the team. The skeleton crew is busting its butt trying to keep up but it's becoming clear that there's too much going on with too few hands to work on it all.
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  • beldinbeldin Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    jonsills wrote: »
    Perhaps it was caused by the difference between "several dozen people" and a full Zone? The only way to test that, of course, would be to get over a hundred people to log into PTS at once, and nobody seems to be willing to do that unless they get paid (you'd think this game was about mercenaries, not superheroes...).

    And you think this is also a reason of how many people are on test ?
    beldin wrote: »

    And then there is the reason that the code on PTS seems to be totally different like the
    live server, since we have bugs on PTS that never went live, and we have bugs on live
    that never were on the PTS.

    Example : If you had an old CTP, on PTS you unlock the new Q-Store TPs, on live the old CTP TPs.
    Or the recent scrolling issues in the talents window on PTS .. thanks god we never got that life.

    They have to bring the PTS on the same Codebase then life simply. And we need again
    the C-Store there, since that at least bugs the tailor, but since the code seems to be so
    strange that the addition of Vehicles break Boss mechanics .. who knows what else the
    missing C-Store can do :rolleyes:
    R607qMf.jpg
  • snazzymcpantssnazzymcpants Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'd just like to chime in here for a second...

    Cryptic drove away MANY good players in general. Unfortunately, many of the hardcore fans of the game that they drove away were also the hardcore testers, min/maxers, and math wizards. The trend over the life of this product has been neglect. Whatever the reasons were, we simply were having many of our reports ignored for a long time. When your volunteer testers become your defacto QA team, then you have to realize that something is broken with the team, not the game.

    Some people like to blame atari, some people like to blame the focus on STO or NWO, some people like to just squat on these forums and bombard us with doom nuggets. I'm not interested in pointing fingers.

    Cryptic, Perfect World, LISTEN! You have a good base game! It needs tender love and care. The user base wants to play this game and see it shine. Hire as many programmers as you need to debug this thing. I hear a certain bunch of paragons are looking for work.

    Put out a product you can be proud of and many of us will flock back.

    Oh yeah...and blah blah hire people to create zones and story content blah blah.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The bugs were addressed actually. They held the update back over a week before it went live, and they patched test up several times during the hold back to address these issues. All the crash bugs were addressed on test, and it was working fine on test. We even had several dozen people helping out with the test. In short, they were addressed, but something is different between test and live now that's causing other things to crop up.

    I've got a bunch of buddies sitting on level 1's that I played with at level 40 months to years ago and a certain buddy who's just been trying to get back into the game for months now and can't even log in. Please, don't give me the actually things were fixed talk. Clearly not or I wouldn't bother commenting as many here well know. I don't live under a bridge with trolls Spar.

    There always seems to be something different between PTS and Live that causes problems. Always. The problem is not and has rarely been an issue of not having enough players testing things. The problem is Crush and the rest of the gang plowing through this stuff seem to need more help so that when people do test and report stuff there are more hands available to get in there and test/fix it. Until that happens adding more reports to the mix is largely pointless.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I've got a bunch of buddies sitting on level 1's that I played with at level 40 months to years ago and a certain buddy who's just been trying to get back into the game for months now and can't even log in. Please, don't give me the actually things were fixed talk. Clearly not or I wouldn't bother commenting as many here well know. I don't live under a bridge with trolls Spar.

    There always seems to be something different between PTS and Live that causes problems. Always. The problem is not and has rarely been an issue of not having enough players testing things. The problem is Crush and the rest of the gang plowing through this stuff seem to need more help so that when people do test and report stuff there are more hands available to get in there and test/fix it. Until that happens adding more reports to the mix is largely pointless.

    And yet, I did test, everything that was reported with live I know I did on test. I used the team up feature I never lost my levels. We got the crash bugs, and everything, and they were fixed several builds went onto test and in fact they even held it off another day to be sure. Saying they plowed through this one is both grossly seeing only what you want to see and ignoring the fact of what they tried to do. Considering how few people do armchair coaching and don't even bother to look themselves, id on't think it's anyone's place, especially if you refuse to get on test, to even dictate what they have and have not done anymore.

    And yes, you might not live under a bridge, Kenpo, but you weren't doing tests either so you are trying to coach from an armchair so you weren't actually there to see them trying.
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  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    And yes, you might not live under a bridge, Kenpo, but you weren't doing tests either so you are trying to coach from an armchair so you weren't actually there to see them trying.

    Spar, I spent two and half of the last three years testing this game before I decided it was a waste of energy. That was more than enough along with everything else so I'm the last person doing anything from an armchair.

    And by "plowing through", that's a compliment as in they are working their ***** off so what are you going on about in that regard?
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  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    pion01 wrote: »

    the level 1 thing, nobody saw that coming, and a lot of this current frustration is stemming directly from that, not from long term bugs. The long term bug issues are being used like in a bad marriage, dredging up things that are only marginally relevant to prove a point in a fit of anger and yelling "you never listen!"
    Speak for your self. I guess you haven't been reading the forums of playing the game because there have been numerous game breaking bugs lately. Can you realy deny that with a straight face?
    Don't presume to speak for all of us. I'm upset about the continuous stream of bugs that make large chunks of content uncompletable not just this specific level one bug.
    pion01 wrote: »

    The problem is focusing on all the feelings of neglect while things are steadily improving is just unproductive resentment. There's a whole new batch of people incoming to the game who aren't yet burnt out, and a steadily improving response to bug fixes. I say, let them have a go.
    I disagree. I think its unproductive to sugar-coat a serious and long standing issue and say its getting better when the latest event in a longstanding pattern just happened yesterday. Things aren't "getting better" when the thing that's considered a problem continues to happen on a regular biases in short time intervals.

    To be clear, im not talking about small bugs and typos or even power/balance related bugs *cough* imbue *cough. I'm talking about bugs that make large portions of content uncompletable. I'm talking about bugs that cause me to log in, form a team, invest a lot of time starting a piece of content and running into a brick wall. Im talking about the story driven content (which is a big deal for new COX players) being unplayable and making the whole game look bad.

    Having all the all of the APs/CSs and any thing with a nemesis (including alerts) unplayable (ie most of the high traffic repeatable content) is more than "only marginally relevant". Those things didn't even happen a month ago and now we have the lv 1 bug. How can you act like there isn't a pattern to this?

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Dear lord. Me and Sigma7 are in agreement on something. The sky is falling. :biggrin:

    Don't hurt me Sigma, just a little levity.
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  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I gave up on PTS ages ago I dont see the point anymore they dont listen :/
    nepht_siggy_v6_by_nepht-dbbz19n.jpg
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    nepht wrote: »
    I gave up on PTS ages ago I dont see the point anymore they dont listen :/

    The funny thing is, they did listen to us, we did report issues and they fixed them on test. No one, that I saw, reported level loss and I know I used the team up feature and didn't lose any levels. They held the patch back and patched it up several times addressing the crash bugs, and the final build on test which is the one that went live, there were no issues that I or several other people could see. And Crush and company were with us as well.
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  • beldinbeldin Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Like i said x time .. PTS Code <> LIVE .. and so testing things for bugs there is absolute senseless.

    And as a programmer i really would be interested in what the hell they do that things like
    giving us these damned Vehicles can break so much in all other parts of the game.
    R607qMf.jpg
  • shieldtowershieldtower Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ooh I haven't played this game in a while.
    *inserts coin*
    *Guile's Theme starts playing*


    DEV THRASHER

    Welcome Player 1.

    Select difficulty.

    • Easy Mode: Disregard everything and just keep ranting.
    • Hard Mode: Don't include past examples in your explanations.
    • Dante Must Die Mode: Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the de-level bug could have been prevented.


    Now I remember why I stopped feeding this thing quarters.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________
  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    The funny thing is, they did listen to us, we did report issues and they fixed them on test. No one, that I saw, reported level loss and I know I used the team up feature and didn't lose any levels. They held the patch back and patched it up several times addressing the crash bugs, and the final build on test which is the one that went live, there were no issues that I or several other people could see. And Crush and company were with us as well.

    Most your posts in this thread seem to be directed to the lv 1 bug. Every one understands that the lv 1 bug didnt show up on PTS.

    The greater issue seems to be long term general handling of bugs and PTS player feed back.

    I don't get the impression that the lv 1 bug is the focus or this thread of the central issue. I just think its the straw that broke the horses back.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • kenpojujitsu3kenpojujitsu3 Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ooh I haven't played this game in a while.
    *inserts coin*
    *Guile's Theme starts playing*


    DEV THRASHER

    Welcome Player 1.

    Select difficulty.

    • Easy Mode: Disregard everything and just keep ranting.
    • Hard Mode: Don't include past examples in your explanations.
    • Dante Must Die Mode: Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the de-level bug could have been prevented.


    Now I remember why I stopped feeding this thing quarters.

    You owe me a coffee.
    ________________________________________________
    My Amazon author page
    How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
    Demon Keypo's Building Guide
    Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
    Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
  • sigmaseven0sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ooh I haven't played this game in a while.
    *inserts coin*
    *Guile's Theme starts playing*


    DEV THRASHER

    Welcome Player 1.

    Select difficulty.

    • Easy Mode: Disregard everything and just keep ranting.
    • Hard Mode: Don't include past examples in your explanations.
    • Dante Must Die Mode: Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the de-level bug could have been prevented.


    Now I remember why I stopped feeding this thing quarters.
    funny post but:
    1. No one is ranting in this thread
    2. Past examples are provided in this thread
    3. No one objects to the fact that the lv 1 bug didn't show up on PTS.

    There's no point in playing your game.



    Edit:
    or maybe i just did?:eek:

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • gnostromognostromo Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Right now I'd be happy if I could just get Arms Skill gains from investigating weapons crates. :frown:

    I suspect that Cryptic doesn't have very good QA protocols. I mean, their own QA people should work off a standard list of actions when testing a new build. Things they do every single time. That's how QA departments are supposed to function.

    Standard Test #123:
    "Investigate weapons crate - ensure Mods drops and skill gains are received."

    C'mon Cryptic. Sheesh.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Actually, from what I've gathered here:

    1- If you are having a problem, but 'I can do it just fine', then who gives a damn? I am enjoying my game. There are bugs, but I just work around them and don't use that part of the game. See? Just like when there's a roach on your pizza. Don't eat that part and it's fine.

    2- The Developers are beautiful and wonderful heavenly beings that grace us with their presence. They are not men of business or persons creating a product. To criticize them is blasphemy, and you will be crucified on the tree of Woe.

    3- Despite the fact that many of these bugs have been pointed out over and over again, this is really no one's fault. After all, when someone in the community voices a complaint, it's our duty to silence and shush them, for fear of displeasing the Dev-Lords.

    All jokes aside, no one is thrashing the devs. But you're missing the point- MANY bugs have been pointed out in the past, and many have not been fixed from the start. I can say for one that I had a serious issue before- I could not load a certain character without crashing the game. After several days of hearing nothing, I used the Respec feature from the main screen to get him in the powerhouse. Yes, I had to spend money to fix my problem. A problem I did not create.

    So, while we're drawing the line in the sand here, and pretending one side has pitchforks and torches and wants to slay the devs- and the other is pretending that this is perfectly normal and acceptable practice, let's take a step back.

    If a product you pay for has repeated problems, you are fully entitled to voice your grievances about said product. PERIOD. This is normal. If you don't do this, please let me know so I can make my Millions shoveling you broken things you accept with a smile and come back for more.
  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    the latest event in a longstanding pattern just happened yesterday.

    Having all the all of the APs/CSs and any thing with a nemesis (including alerts) unplayable (ie most of the high traffic repeatable content) is more than "only marginally relevant". Those things didn't even happen a month ago and now we have the lv 1 bug. How can you act like there isn't a pattern to this?

    This is exactly my point. What exactly is the longstanding pattern? Because I'm pretty sure the long standing pattern is "Testers test ****, report bugs, bugs then proceed to not be fixed."

    That's what I'm referring to. In this case this bug was not found, was not reported, was not expected in any way. That's why I'm saying it's marginally relevant. This is not a case in which the devs didn't do whatever it is they usually don't do, or whatever.

    I'm not arguing that there aren't still problems, often way too many, but this latest issue is just being used as a springboard to launch into yet another "they don't listen" tirade despite the fact that there was nothing to listen to. And for the other game-breaking bugs that emerged, they are being actively worked on much sooner than some of the other long standing issues had. Do you remember how long it took to get Kitchen Sink 1 fixed? Months. Meanwhile APs, CSs etc, have been fixed lightyears faster. Specifically, the Nemesis and alert things? Wasn't that like, At Most, 2 weeks (even though I'm pretty sure it was only a couple of days, but I was otherwise occupied at the time so I could be wrong)?

    At this point it's sounding like "Don't fix this, fix the other bug!" I'm not saying that that's what you're saying, I'm saying that the collective feeling that I'm am hearing seems like it, before we get another "words in my mouth" speech.
  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Most your posts in this thread seem to be directed to the lv 1 bug. Every one understands that the lv 1 bug didnt show up on PTS.

    The greater issue seems to be long term general handling of bugs and PTS player feed back.

    I don't get the impression that the lv 1 bug is the focus or this thread of the central issue. I just think its the straw that broke the horses back.

    Ahh, see, this is the problem. We're talking about different things. Carry on then.
  • cybersoldier1981cybersoldier1981 Posts: 2,501 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'll put it to you this way, the NUMBER ONE COMPLAINT, an issue I've yet to see anyone disagree with- the Chat Silence Feature- Cryptic pretty much told us to go F**k ourselves. There's something fundamentally wrong there.
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