Ninja Vanish: Bugged?

sigmaseven0

This power is very slow, too slow to be considered a travel power.
This TP is slightly faster than the protector specialization run buff. This cant be rite.

crypticbuxom

That's the cost of having a TP with stealth attached to it. If the stealth even works properly.

sigmaseven0

crypticbuxom wrote: »

That's the cost of having a TP with stealth attached to it. If the stealth even works properly.

Since when?
Teleport and tunneling don't have this problem.

voiceoftemprus

Ninja Vanish is listed as being +50% at rank one, Acro is +75% and SS powers are +100%.

stoopidme

This power is pretty great for thematic purposes, wouldn't recommend it as a first TP pick though.

bioshrike

So what is the speed rating of teleport at R1?

elcymerian

Is it a permanent stealth or is it like teleport?

fmstalker

crypticbuxom wrote: »

That's the cost of having a TP with stealth attached to it. If the stealth even works properly.

But all TP's have stealth. While you are in TP you can't be seen or attacked. So, what is making this one different?

guyhumual

You know it would be nice if they posted a video of the new travel powers in action or let you try them out in the Power House before buying them. ditto on devices. I can't really get a feel for these travel powers by pictures alone.

zenzenarimasen

fmstalker wrote: »

But all TP's have stealth. While you are in TP you can't be seen or attacked. So, what is making this one different?

Basically, what's different is that you don't have the flight of Teleport so you have to walk, and it's only slightly faster than walking without a travel power at all.

So basically... it's a MUCH slower version of teleport makes you walk around. It's not really a travel power at all... It's easily a quarter as fast as tunneling. Infact, you're better off using Tunneling because you're still bound to the ground with it, but it's faster, and you get the same stealth. And it's permastealth, unlike Ninja Vanish which only lasts for a few seconds like Teleport.

crypticbuxom

Wait. Its temporary? Why would anyone want this?

beldin

guyhumual wrote: »

You know it would be nice if they posted a video of the new travel powers in action or let you try them out in the Power House before buying them. ditto on devices. I can't really get a feel for these travel powers by pictures alone.

What would be even nicer is to finally bring back the C-Store on the PTS, like Robobo
has promised us 2 times. The last he said was it happens after On Alert went life.

But yeah .. we see now that he simply has lied to us and we can't trust them

lotar295

Why is such a slow TP even available here,we have no use whatsoever for slow TPs,if we want stealth,Tunneling and teleport work much better and much faster,Ninja vanish is even slower than acrobatics,which Acrobatics is the slowest TP in game,which says something abot ninja vanish.

killercrock95

lotar295 wrote: »

Why is such a slow TP even available here,we have no use whatsoever for slow TPs,if we want stealth,Tunneling and teleport work much better and much faster,Ninja vanish is even slower than acrobatics,which Acrobatics is the slowest TP in game,which says something abot ninja vanish.

I agree, one thing that set champions apart from other MMO's was the ability to move around much faster and much earlier in game. Ninja Vanish is an insult to that, you run just a little bit faster than normal yet its treated like a teleport ability. If I were the developers, I would have set Ninja Vanish as an acrobat power but with stealth. Silver players are better of with ANY other travel power, and freeforms are better off using acrobats TP and stealth.

theravenforce

I think Ninja Vanish is ok actually, it has no cooldown in combat which is fantastic IMO. But I do agree if it has athletics attached to it which it does it should at least resemble Rank 2 Athletics at rank 3...I mean Ninja's may be stealthy but they aren't that damn slow xD

-EDIT-

I revoke this comment as I was under a false impression that it was good. I now see how crummy it is...Got 1 shotted in PvP whilst in Ninja Vanish...Level 6's can still target me with it on in duels.

lotar295

killercrock95 wrote: »

I agree, one thing that set champions apart from other MMO's was the ability to move around much faster and much earlier in game. Ninja Vanish is an insult to that, you run just a little bit faster than normal yet its treated like a teleport ability. If I were the developers, I would have set Ninja Vanish as an acrobat power but with stealth. Silver players are better of with ANY other travel power, and freeforms are better off using acrobats TP and stealth.

This ninja TP is just...well.....quite possibly the ninja TP is the worst TP ever.I mean if I want stealth all I can do is just use teleport and or Tunneling and BOOM.....stealth TP that is both fast and stealthy right there.The ninja vanish TP is just basic walking really.its a stealth walking TP.Its actually slower than acrobatics......slower than the slowest TP in CO.......wow,if its doing to be a TP, I'm surprised it wasn't a free one for that matter,for it to be that slow ninja vanish should either be revamped or removed completely in my opinion.Not to mention the stealth doesn't last long either.

secksegai

With the listed perception stealth, I had the impression that the stealth factor would be the reason why to pick it over teleport. After some brief testing, found myself seeing through it just as I see through tele, negating any benefit from a pvp aspect.

While it looks great, and something I wanted for teleport for some time, making it work like a slow acro instead of tele really kills it short of thematic use.

roughbearmattach

I suppose the devs think enough folks will buy it because it says "ninja" and you get a nice animation when activating it.

If this TP were a toggle, like burrowing, it would be almost reasonable.

lotar295

roughbearmattach wrote: »

I suppose the devs think enough folks will buy it because it says "ninja" and you get a nice animation when activating it.

If this TP were a toggle, like burrowing, it would be almost reasonable.

Why would someone buy this when its so slow,just because it has ninja in it doesn't make it great.if they want someone to buy the TP it needs an overhaul,like add more speed and make stealth last longer.

crypticbuxom

All this is is just a horribly slower and non flight version of teleport.

Either the stealth applies at full speed and remains until you get into a battle (give or take damage) like a normal travel power or they make it go faster and longer than teleport speed. Don't meet halfway on either of these, Cryptic.

championshewolf

bioshrike wrote: »

So what is the speed rating of teleport at R1?

+60 flight, teleport isn't much faster naturally, but ninja vanish also includes extra tidbits like jump height and such, traction, and high aggression stealth, which teleport doesn't actually have, as enemies can still see you with teleport.

theravenforce

secksegai wrote: »

With the listed perception stealth, I had the impression that the stealth factor would be the reason why to pick it over teleport. After some brief testing, found myself seeing through it just as I see through tele, negating any benefit from a pvp aspect.

While it looks great, and something I wanted for teleport for some time, making it work like a slow acro instead of tele really kills it short of thematic use.

I think the stealth portion needs to be buffed to smoke nade levels...currently mobs 2 levels lower than my lvl 40 can see through it and attack me. And it needs to be so much faster.

Also in PvP I can still be seen and targeted by lvl 40's and lvl 6's and attacked. This power is amazing concept wise but everything else wise it is just a massive NO.

thelastsonofzod

This is pretty unimpressive as it stands right now. I think it should be kept at current level for rank one, with boost per level to the speed and jump hight specs.

Making it less effective than acro is understandable, but this powers performance is actually subpar to all the other options currently available. Its actually inferior to free travel powers.

Oh, and getting these sort of things worked out should be Exactly what PTS is for.

caycepollard

Thanks to all for their impressions/thoughts on this Travel Power. I'll be saving my Zen for something else. To those who bought this, I wish there were a "15 minute refund" window, like there is with some "app stores". You deserve your "money" back, it seems.

deepfriedspam

Basically we paid for a puff of smoke. :eek:

theravenforce

Oh and btw if you use this power and stand on the Ren Cen tailor bit, the cream coloured rooftop bit and take a screen shot you can see yourself clearly as a pink outline and on the glass bits your invisibility cuts a hole through the glass to the other side

zenzenarimasen

It's occured to me that Ninja Vanish fits a nitche... It's a "travel power" that allows non-powered heroes to get around without feeling like they're compromising their character concept. Even Acrobatics is a bit too powerful for someone who's just an ordinary human with no powers, but fights crime using their wits and special training.

angelphoenix12

thelastsonofzod wrote: »

This is pretty unimpressive as it stands right now. I think it should be kept at current level for rank one, with boost per level to the speed and jump hight specs.

Making it less effective than acro is understandable, but this powers performance is actually subpar to all the other options currently available. Its actually inferior to free travel powers.

Oh, and getting these sort of things worked out should be Exactly what PTS is for.

i agree with all of this . imho its a cool tp but need to be buffed abit more.

bioshrike

I think what this TP needs is to have the self heal and power use debuffs removed from it. Then, it'd have an edge over teleport that might make one consider it...

stjobe

I immediately bought Ninja Vanish, and I'm very happy with it.

Although I bought it for thematic purposes, not for a PvP edge.

As zenzenarimasen said above, it fits a niche, and being the uber-TP that everyone in PvP *needs* because it's simply better than every other TP isn't the niche it's supposed to fill.

It's great for the less-than-superpowered hero, it's great as a secondary TP for my magic hero.

nepht

I have this amazing new idea for a Ninja Vanish reskin.

A slow walk in the park.

tearsofice

I am unhappy with it and telling people not to get it. I find it slow, the stealth portion isn't that great, and the other debuffs it has... well you might as well get teleport if you want utility.

If you want to play around and RP that you're a ninja... well at least it can do that because you probably wont be using it for anything else.

biffsmackwell

I think I can understand the thought process here:

Let's make a ninja puff-of-smoke acrobatics, where you disappear.

Sounds cool! But if it's Acrobatics plus stealth, then why would anyone want to take Acrobatics? This travel power is just better, hands-down.

You're right! I suppose we can just slow it up a bit, that way there's a disadvantage to it.

Sounds great! Let's do it!

Unfortunately, this part of the conversation wasn't had:

Well, wait, when you compare it to Teleport, Teleport is just better all around. It's very fast, you can use it in combat, and you can fly with it.

Hmm, you're right. So how do we put Ninja Vanish somewhere between Acrobatics and Teleport?

It doesn't seem that you can, actually. If you give Ninja Vanish any kind of drawback as compensation to Acrobatics, then it's still worse than Teleport. There's no way to balance this.

So what's broken here?

Teleport. The ultimate travel power/combat power. In a class all its own.

sigmaseven0

stjobe wrote: »

I immediately bought Ninja Vanish, and I'm very happy with it.

Although I bought it for thematic purposes, not for a PvP edge.

As zenzenarimasen said above, it fits a niche, and being the uber-TP that everyone in PvP *needs* because it's simply better than every other TP isn't the niche it's supposed to fill.

It's great for the less-than-superpowered hero, it's great as a secondary TP for my magic hero.

This thread isnt about pvp.
I dont remember any one clamering for a walking speed "travel power" You get that for free any way...

Travel powers are intended to get you where your going faster, Ninja vanish isnt significantly faster than the protector specialization speed buff. Ninja Vanish isnt a "travel power" so much as its a stealth power.

Also remember that you can now use sneak with travel powers on pts, so you can pick sneak +acrobatics and get the same thing but faster....

This power is a terible choice for a primary TP and the devs should have warned us if their intention was to put a "stealth" power in the travel power section.
If you want to be "less-than-superpowered" vehicles are the logical choice for long range travel.

Even if you like the slowness of this power, you cant deny that this Ninja Vanish will cause confusion and disappointment, especially since it costs money.

I

championshewolf

Not always, travel powers are intended to add spice and flavor to a character, not be equal, otherwise tunneling would allow people to jump as high as super jump.

biffsmackwell

championshewolf wrote: »

Not always, travel powers are intended to add spice and flavor to a character, not be equal, otherwise tunneling would allow people to jump as high as super jump.

I've always seen them as being fairly balanced.

Versatility vs Speed.

Superspeed, you go way fast. But it's not versatile. You can hardly get up anywhere.

Acrobatics, gives you some z-axis versatility, but it's slower running speed. Somewhere in the middle of the Versatility/Speed scale.

Superjump - zero ground speed, but lets you jump way high. Leans heavily on the Versatility side.

Swinging - Some jump height, some speed, lets you get up way high, but you have to work for it. Z-axis versatility is not easy or fast. I'd put it somewhere closer to speed than versatility.

Flight - Obviously great z-axis versatility, but it's slow. The best in the way of freedom. On the Versatility side.

Tunneling - slow activation speed, okay movement speed, stealth toggle. Definitely on the versatility side.

Teleport - Instant activation speed, even while in combat, fast movement speed, limited stealth toggle. Wait, why is this here, it's a combat power, not a travel power.

Ice slide - Don't be ridiculous, Cousin Larry.

championshewolf

biffsmackwell wrote: »

Teleport - Instant activation speed, even while in combat, fast movement speed, limited stealth toggle. Wait, why is this here, it's a combat power, not a travel power.

Hehe I think people are mistaking this part, because teleport isn't a fast travel speed, and never has been.

biffsmackwell

championshewolf wrote: »

Hehe I think people are mistaking this part, because teleport isn't a fast travel speed, and never has been.

It's the only travel power that is 100% speed while in combat. That's fast.

But, that aside, there's the Versatility vs Speed thing again. Teleport is on the Versatility side. Actually, it's way far beyond the Versatility side.

gammabreaker

biffsmackwell wrote: »

It's the only travel power that is 100% speed while in combat. That's fast.

But, that aside, there's the Versatility vs Speed thing again. Teleport is on the Versatility side. Actually, it's way far beyond the Versatility side.

It also starts off at top speed, rather than "warming up" or requiring a charge.

lotar295

And teleport has the added bonus of decent stealth along with speed,which Ninja vanish doesn't have.In fact alot of TPs have some degree of stealth along with speed(minus acrobatics),like superspeed,if you go at max speed,mobs dont notice you,teleport and tunneling go fast,and tunneling even has perma stealth on it.Ninja vanish is actually far worst than any TP out there now that I think about it more.The stealth is only for 20 secs and its slower than acrobatics,it takes about 20 secs for it go a short distance and then stealth wears and you get attacked.

championshewolf

lotar295 wrote: »

And teleport has the added bonus of decent stealth along with speed,which Ninja vanish doesn't have.In fact alot of TPs have some degree of stealth along with speed(minus acrobatics),like superspeed,if you go at max speed,mobs dont notice you,teleport and tunneling go fast,and tunneling even has perma stealth on it.Ninja vanish is actually far worst than any TP out there now that I think about it more.The stealth is only for 20 secs and its slower than acrobatics,it takes about 20 secs for it go a short distance and then stealth wears and you get attacked.

This si false. Ninja Vanish has high stealth and about equal speed to TP. Mobs have an aggro cycle, IE, every few seconds they check for hostiles. If you move fast enough you can get by without getting caught in the aggro cycle. This is why it seems some mobs go through a derp moment when they first spot you and other start attacking immediately.

sigmaseven0

Championshewolf, its hard to tell where you stand. Are you saying that Ninja Vanish should not be faster?

championshewolf

It's a versatility power. Like teleport not really a good primary travel power.

biffsmackwell

sigmaseven0 wrote: »

Championshewolf, its hard to tell where you stand. Are you saying that Ninja Vanish should not be faster?

If you were to take teleport out of the equation (and tunneling, to a lesser degree), it would be very clear that the speed of the travel power is just fine. That, or some other drawback, maybe.

Take Teleport into account, and everything goes all topsy-turvy. Make Ninja Vanish slow, but you get 20 Questionite every time you stay in stealth for the full 20 seconds. Make it so Ninja Vanish doesn't prevent people from targeting you, but any damage they deal to you is instead dealt to them. Or just make Ninja Vanish a combination of Super Speed and Super Jump! Dogs and cats living to gether, mass hysteria!

lotar295

championshewolf wrote: »

It's a versatility power. Like teleport not really a good primary travel power.

I used teleport to get by ENTIRE lairs almost up to the boss,something ninja vanish problably cant do with that slow speed it has going there

mrkunta

According to the Co wiki the only flight travel powers that are faster than teleport are jet boots and jet pack there are no others, teleport is not slow

bioshrike

I think that the best course of action would be to remove the heal debuff and allow you to use elf-targeted powers, while in ninja vanish. Perhaps buff the speed from 50% to 60-65% (at R1).

sigmaseven0

biffsmackwell wrote: »

If you were to take teleport out of the equation (and tunneling, to a lesser degree), it would be very clear that the speed of the travel power is just fine. That, or some other drawback, maybe.

Take Teleport into account, and everything goes all topsy-turvy. Make Ninja Vanish slow, but you get 20 Questionite every time you stay in stealth for the full 20 seconds. Make it so Ninja Vanish doesn't prevent people from targeting you, but any damage they deal to you is instead dealt to them. Or just make Ninja Vanish a combination of Super Speed and Super Jump! Dogs and cats living to gether, mass hysteria!

Do we even need to take other travel powers into account?
IMHO Ninja vanish is simply below the threshold of how fast any travel power should be and still be called a travel power.

championshewolf wrote: »

It's a versatility power. Like teleport not really a good primary travel power.

What is this versatility that you speak of?

Also you cant put Teleport and ninja vanish in the same category. I have Teleport as
my only travel power on several toons and its way faster/more versatile than Ninja Vanish.

Ninja vanish doesn't do any thing that other stealth TPs dont do except for not having a cool-down on use. I have been playing with NV on a melee dps build in pve and pvp for since it came out.

-In pve you can try to use NV to drop, for example, Alert boss agro but it wont. What i expierence with spamming NV to drop agro is that while NV is active, The the boss will target someone else and as soon as NV drops the boss re targets me without me attacking him, it puts aggro on hold. In the mean time all healing is completely suppressed in NV while teleport only has reduced healing.
In this case, if im low in hp and hit NV i will not gain any benefit because as soon as i come out of NV i will have the same amount of HP and the same amount of agro as before NV.
Also, elite mobs can see through NV...

-In PVP NV is less useful than teleport or other stealth powers because every one is flying high or moving fast. You can only use it to get the drop on some one thats already engaged in a fight and already has their TP suppressed. The spamibility of NV does not make it a superior choice to Teleport because NV is far more vulnerable to NTTG. If ppl are fighting on top of a building or in the layered construction sight in bash then its quite possible that they will have moved on to another area by the time you make it up the fire escape or whatever. In Pvp where timing and speed are key, NV doesn't have any advantage in versatility over any other travel power.

I have given this power the benefit of the doubt over the last couple of days and its slower and less versatile than any other travel power should be, especially for pay. The only time i can imagine that NV would have the edge is maybe when combined with the new sneak on PTS but i cant test that because PTS transfers are busted.:mad:

biffsmackwell

sigmaseven0 wrote: »

Do we even need to take other travel powers into account?

It's just a guess, but the only reason I can think of that they would "nerf" this acrobatics, is so that this one wouldn't be Acrobatics + Benefit. They made it Acrobatics + Benefit - Drawback. If it was Acrobatics + Benefit, then people start complaining, "Acrobatics should have this to make up for it!" "OMG PAY 2 WIN OMG OMG!"

tearsofice

Now I wouldn't be opposed to them putting in an advantage of having a full aggro wipe and unable to be detected by elite mobs for 2 points, give it some additional versatility as a secondary power. The one character I have it on has enough problems with aggro problems that I put EM with Slight on and Pallate with Absolve to help me survive. Even then, unless I'm playing with an experienced tank who gets Challenging strikes and crippling challenge I'll still pull aggro and it would be nice to have the 3rd aggro wiper, Especially if EM fails to wipe and Pallate is on cool down. I was going to use smoke bomb but for some reason it keeps coming up as costing 140 energy for some reason beyond me and Smoke Grenade doesn't have a -aggro only -perception

biffsmackwell

That's the problem with things like this...

People using it as something other than a travel power.