Nailed to the Ground, okay. Energy costs and damage per energy are questionable because of Ego Leech stacks helping TK Assault with all of these things. Enrage is a definite no since TK Assault gets even more mileage out of Enrage with its toggle passive. I don't see what functionality there is in a shorter maintain cycle.
TK Assault can't generate Enrage while TGMJ can. And if we're going to dip into other powers in the set, then going with Quarry will provide you with a comparable cost reduction to Ego Leech, not to mention a significant increase in crit severity, dodge, and avoidance.
Listen, I'm not trying to say that TGMJ is better than TKA. I'm just saying that comparing damage and costs and claiming one power is significantly worse than another without looking at the frameworks, mechanics, and synergies, is not accurate as you're simply not seeing the big picture.
Bigger picture? What bigger picture? We are seeing the bigger picture, thats why we know its so weak. Its YOU that is not looking at the bigger picture.
Why do you care that Two Gun Mojo isn't as "good" (whatever that means) as Lightning Arc? It just doesn't matter. Two different powers in two different sets that do two different kinds of damage and have two different kinds of synergies within their respective sets. It's an extremely narrow view of power design and leads to CoX-style powers that all do exactly the same DPS, EPS, and DPE; which is just DULL.
I don't really want them to all do the exact same DPS, but it's kind of messed up that 2GM is behind, in comparable circumstances, by about 25% (1500 vs. 2100-2400), even with all of it's supposed 'advantages'. They don't, and never really did, make up for that big of a loss, especially since the only way to significantly buff the power are all found in other sets (you can't stack Enrage without dipping into Might, and you can't even boost it's base damage without dipping into Power Armor or Force).
It's crap and while I don't agree that it needs to be made equivlant (and I don't think that the disparity between the other maintains it's competing with need to be shaped up either - an approximate 300DPS variance is fine between the three, given that they all have different secondary effects and bonuses), I do want it to be made more competitive with those choices so that choosing it is not a straight loss in effectiveness.
If it were boosted to the 1900-2000 DPS range with just an Offensive passive, I'd be fine with it (as it then has bonuses that actually allow it to remain competitive with the other choices present).
Or have we already made that argument? I had a long day, and frankly, my eyes glaze over when some people post...
Enrage generation powers are only useful if they can generate 8 stacks, otherwise the enrage is kinda insignificant. If TGM had an 8 stack cap, it would be a useful power (though marginal as an attack power).
Wait? Shorter maintain cycle? How is a 4 sec maintain cycle shorter than a 4 sec maintain cycle? Or have you forgotten they increased the maintain cycle for TGM? Greater compatibility with out-of-framework passives? You mean...Targetting Computer and Kinetic Manipulation? The ONLY two passives that increase TGM's damage? Oh, right, Munitions does not even have its OWN passive. The only advantage that TGM has over TKA is a very SMALL difference in energy cost, not half the energy cost. Enrage is balanced by Ego Leech. Nailed to the Ground is useful in pvp and thats it. And requires you to spend AP, thus reducing its overall power. Hell, with the toon I'm on right now, the energy cost of TGM is 8.9 initial and 6.9 per 0.5 sec. While TKA is 7.4 initial and 7.4 per 0.5 sec. 4 secs each, so, eight ticks each for the energy cost. 6.9 x 8 = 55.2 + 8.9 = 64.1 Energy total for TGM. While 7.4 x 8 = 59.2 + 7.4 = 66.6 Energy total of TKA. 64.1 is not half of 66.6.
66.6 energy doing 2400 vs 64.1 energy doing 1500...yeah...so balanced.
Oooo boy, you really dun schooled me. So is that 2400 the AVERAGE damage, or are you just reporting the max without the variance? TGMJ works with Quarry, Targeting Computer, Kinetic Manipulation, and Way of the Warrior -- all outside the Munitions set. TK Assault works with Ego Form, Shadow Form, and ID Mastery -- only one of which is outside the set. 4 is greater than 1, is it not?
I don't really want them to all do the exact same DPS, but it's kind of messed up that 2GM is behind, in comparable circumstances, by about 25% (1500 vs. 2100-2400), even with all of it's supposed 'advantages'. They don't, and never really did, make up for that big of a loss, especially since the only way to significantly buff the power are all found in other sets (you can't stack Enrage without dipping into Might, and you can't even boost it's base damage without dipping into Power Armor or Force).
It's crap and while I don't agree that it needs to be made equivlant (and I don't think that the disparity between the other maintains it's competing with need to be shaped up either - an approximate 300DPS variance is fine between the three, given that they all have different secondary effects and bonuses), I do want it to be made more competitive with those choices so that choosing it is not a straight loss in effectiveness.
If it were boosted to the 1900-2000 DPS range with just an Offensive passive, I'd be fine with it (as it then has bonuses that actually allow it to remain competitive with the other choices present).
Or have we already made that argument? I had a long day, and frankly, my eyes glaze over when some people post...
You are the first to make that argument, and the first to provide a valid answer to my question. Thanks.
Oooo boy, you really dun schooled me. So is that 2400 the AVERAGE damage, or are you just reporting the max without the variance? TGMJ works with Quarry, Targeting Computer, Kinetic Manipulation, and Way of the Warrior -- all outside the Munitions set. TK Assault works with Ego Form, Shadow Form, and ID Mastery -- only one of which is outside the set. 4 is greater than 1, is it not?
Average damage, was also hitting up 2600 (most likely the max). Forgot about Quarry. And the bonus from WotW is to low to be useful. Quantity? Who cares about how many can affect it really, its QUALITY over quantity . And in this case, regardless of the 4 passives you use, TGM always deals less damage than TKA. Even if TKA is using ID Mastery, it still does more damage on average than TGM.
Average damage, was also hitting up 2600 (most likely the max). Forgot about Quarry. And the bonus from WotW is to low to be useful. Quantity? Who cares about how many can affect it really, its QUALITY over quantity . And in this case, regardless of the 4 passives you use, TGM always deals less damage than TKA. Even if TKA is using ID Mastery, it still does more damage on average than TGM.
Well I knew something didn't sound right so I hopped on to do some checking of my own.
On my admittedly low level Munitions character SS DEX/EGO, no passive, with TGMJ and TKA both R2:
TGMJ
80 damage x 7 hits = 3 second maintain, 560 damage
7.7 initial cost, 6.4 per tick = 7.7 + (6.4*7) = 52.5 energy
TKA
66-146 damage (105.5 average) x 9 hits = 4 second maintain, 949.5 damage
10 initial cost, 10 per tick = 10 + (9*10) = 100 energy
So my original statement stands. Shorter maintain time, half the energy cost per maintain, and better DPE.
The boost from WotW is no worse than ID Mastery, so why would you suggest one while discounting the other? And quantity does matter because it provides greater flexibility. To get the best out of TKA you need to use Ego Form or ID Mastery, both of which are in the same set. But with TGMJ you can build a hybrid character with Force, Gadgets, PA, Archery, or MA without gimping yourself. You might not find that bit important, but others do.
Seeing the big picture means understanding there is more than just damage. If all you care about is damage, then TGMJ isn't for you because clearly there are better damage-dealers. But if you care about how a character performs as a complete package, then you realize the damage of a single power really doesn't matter much.
No one is forcing you to take TGMJ. If you think TKA is so much better then take it.
Well I knew something didn't sound right so I hopped on to do some checking of my own.
On my admittedly low level Munitions character SS DEX/EGO, no passive, with TGMJ and TKA both R2:
TGMJ
80 damage x 7 hits = 3 second maintain, 560 damage
7.7 initial cost, 6.4 per tick = 7.7 + (6.4*7) = 52.5 energy
TKA
66-146 damage (105.5 average) x 9 hits = 4 second maintain, 949.5 damage
10 initial cost, 10 per tick = 10 + (9*10) = 100 energy
So my original statement stands. Shorter maintain time, half the energy cost per maintain, and better DPE.
The boost from WotW is no worse than ID Mastery, so why would you suggest one while discounting the other? And quantity does matter because it provides greater flexibility. To get the best out of TKA you need to use Ego Form or ID Mastery, both of which are in the same set. But with TGMJ you can build a hybrid character with Force, Gadgets, PA, Archery, or MA without gimping yourself. You might not find that bit important, but others do.
Seeing the big picture means understanding there is more than just damage. If all you care about is damage, then TGMJ isn't for you because clearly there are better damage-dealers. But if you care about how a character performs as a complete package, then you realize the damage of a single power really doesn't matter much.
No one is forcing you to take TGMJ. If you think TKA is so much better then take it.
Right...I love how you stopped maintaining TGM with a whole second left to go. Otherwise the tooltip and the devs lie:
Munitions: Two-Gun Mojo: Damage increased ~25%. Tap cost increased ~6 Energy, maintain cost increased ~4 Energy. Max maintain time increased to 4 seconds, up from 3 seconds. Now applies/refreshes Enrage if maintained for 2 seconds, instead of requiring a full maintain.
And the tooltip even says 4 secs max maintain for TGM. Hell, I was even able to maintain it for 4 secs. Further more, why two SSs? Are you testing this out on...LIVE? Instead of the PTS...which is were this forum is and is about? For if you are "testing" this "info" out on live, than you are doing nothing more than just trolling us here.
Nice try pal.
And obviously you do not know how to read. I said that even with ID Mastery TKA does more damage than TGM. That means that even if TGM had the best passive for it TKA with its worse passive still does better damage. Again, you have failed. Two fails in one post, very nice.
To get the best out of TKA you need to use Ego Form or ID Mastery, both of which are in the same set.
If you're looking for pure damage, Ego Form. If you want to boost healing while you're at it, Seraphim. Out of set, buffed heals, and crazy amounts of energy to keep it running forever if you're using it in Support rather than Hybrid.
But with TGMJ you can build a hybrid character with Force, Gadgets, PA, Archery, or MA without gimping yourself. You might not find that bit important, but others do.
Force could be viable, and MA is supported rather well by Munitions in a tanking set. Specifically, Lead Tempest. TGM is iffy, but with the recent buff? It's actually a more damaging alternative to Shuriken Throw if the 50 foot range gap isn't an issue and if you've invested nothing into Ego for the range damage buff (or Strength with Shuriken's 1 point advantage).
(also Shuriken Throw has a range of 100 feet WHY SCIENCE WHY)
Some of the non-dex stat trees have ways to get crits from Secondary Superstats, and there's always the new Critical Strike rating on gear.
I think it'll be possible to have enough of a crit chance to trigger effects even without super'ing Dex.
sry it took me this long to reply, yah... I'm aware that there is ways to get crits I'm just not fond of the idea of being forced to do so. (or at least feels that way)
Since bosses will be getting resistances this might just happen.
I'm not sure that, "maybe someday something that nothing has been said about by the devs will be done to bosses," is particularly relevant to a discussion about discrepancy in performance between similar powers of the same tier.
So you want it to have more damage, but when I point out it can already do something like 63% more damage than listed it's not enough. Got it.
Where did you point this out ? I am unaware of any buff to 2GM that isnt equally applicable to the other powers that it is being compared to here that could possibly produce this result. Close the gap doesnt do this, the one stack of enrage it can generate doesnt do this, the two of them together dont do this. I went back and reread all of your posts on this matter and must have missed something.
Maybe cause it's NOT the same power and doesn't work the same way as TK Assault? Cause if it did it would do the same amount of damage in the same situations. Or you can just take TK Assault if TGMJ isn't to your liking. Isn't that the point of a freeform system?.
I dont think that such is the point of a freeform system. I think the FF system exists to allow one to play the hero one wishes to play. A system that punishes a heroes performance because some powers of the same tier are inherently superior to others of the same tier doesnt foster that.
Who R3s a tier 0/1 power? And IIRC Enrage gives you something like 8% per stack if you don't SS STR. So first you say you want the extra damage, and now you say it doesn't matter. Well which is it?
I rank 2GM to 3 for my dual pistols build. It means that my character is weaker than someone who took a TK Assault for example. I also take TK Assault to R3 on my ranged TK build.
I am getting only 4.4% out of a stack of enrage. 4.4% doesnt come even close to balancing 2GM against TK Assault, which gets an inherent critical hit increase that boosts DPS to a much greater degree than is the case for the one stack of enrage (unless your munitions toon SS's STR, at which point he has lost out on crits)
So then you're basically cherry-picking and/or not taking full advantage of the various mechanics available in each framework. Either way your methodology is flawed.
If I take full advantage of the various mechanics available in the munitions framework, my dual pistols toon will not come even close to the performance of a character that takes full advantage of the various mechanics in many other sets.
And thru all this ridiculousness you still haven't told me why TGMJ needs to be exactly like Lightning Arc or TK Assault. There is more to a power's effectiveness than just its base damage.
What more is there to the effectiveness of a power for which damage to a target is its primary purpose?
What more does 2GM have that balances it against the fact that other powers of the same tier and basic type do more damage and have superior secondary effects ?
And yet again I ask: WHY does every power need to be point by point equivalent to every other power?
I'm not sure how anyone could answer that since you are the only one posting that statement. That has not been a point of contention for anyone else here.
Asking for powers that are of the same tier and nearly identical purpose to be balanced against each other is not a statement that, " every power need to be point by point equivalent to every other power."
But with TGMJ you can build a hybrid character with Force, Gadgets, PA, Archery, or MA without gimping yourself. You might not find that bit important, but others do.
And with TK Assault I can build a hybrid character with Celestial, Telepathy, Darkness, Arcane Sorcery, Ebon Sorcery, Primal Sorcery, Radiant Sorcery, and Unarmed Martial Arts without gimping myself. So that secondary benefit of 2GM is not really a balancing factor either.
For FREE, i can pick up an object in the game world, and have it's dmg. modified by STR.
But when i PAY a power point for a single attack with a static object i have to pay an advantage point to do the same thing?!
I haven't tried it with the 1 point advantage on my STR/CON character but I wept when the tooltip. 164 damage, down from 230... Stone Shot's at 430ish + 100 for the two seconds of what I got Hurl's cooldown to.
I'm not sure if this is a bug or not but started a Serpent Lantern run and got as far as taking down Viper-X. The drop did not include an Until Token or any gear just Recognition.
Bug: Mission Tracker won't stay closed.
Where it happens: ever time you zone, respawn after death and after cut scenes
what happens: when you close the Tracker doing anyone of the above will Cause it to reopen itself
I haven't tried it with the 1 point advantage on my STR/CON character but I wept when the tooltip. 164 damage, down from 230... Stone Shot's at 430ish + 100 for the two seconds of what I got Hurl's cooldown to.
I blame the whiners who wanted Shuriken to be ranged completely, I also blame them for Bullet Beatdown's focus nerf. Great job guys
From the note:
Munitions: Two-Gun Mojo: Damage increased ~25%. Tap cost increased ~6 Energy, maintain cost increased ~4 Energy. Max maintain time increased to 4 seconds, up from 3 seconds. Now applies/refreshes Enrage if maintained for 2 seconds, instead of requiring a full maintain.
However, it seems to be 3 seconds but not the 2 seconds. 'Cause I got enrage or refreshed enrage at the end of third second.
Right...I love how you stopped maintaining TGM with a whole second left to go. Otherwise the tooltip and the devs lie:
And the tooltip even says 4 secs max maintain for TGM. Hell, I was even able to maintain it for 4 secs. Further more, why two SSs? Are you testing this out on...LIVE? Instead of the PTS...which is were this forum is and is about? For if you are "testing" this "info" out on live, than you are doing nothing more than just trolling us here.
Nice try pal.
And obviously you do not know how to read. I said that even with ID Mastery TKA does more damage than TGM. That means that even if TGM had the best passive for it TKA with its worse passive still does better damage. Again, you have failed. Two fails in one post, very nice.
Oh SNAP! Buuuuuurrrnnnnn! Since I clearly cannot match wits with an intellectual titan such as yourself I'll leave you with one parting thought before I run off to do something more productive than read forum posts:
Considering the devs have had multiple opportunities to buff the damage of TGMJ to the same level as TKA, why haven't they?
Secondary Super Stats aren't colored for when you look at items even with those particular stats. It would be a nice QOL update here if they were colored, maybe orange, green, or even a greyish color, to let us know that those are our super stats to at a glance.
Personally, I think TGM needs more love. Its range is only half of most ranged T0 powers. It just doesn't seem fair -- shorter range and fewer damages. Being a 50ft T0 power, Lash has much better performance. It really needs some change .... and rejudge the overlapped function with Assault Rifle.
Seriously, I think Assault Rifle is more like a T0 power.
BTW, munitions need their own passive.
So basically you can't answer my question either. It was a simple question. It doesn't require pages of "what if" scenarios and ridiculous assertions.
Telling people not to do what he does himself and ignoring relevant responses that contradict his own viewpoints. So much for intelligent discussion from this one. :rolleyes:
Personally, I think TGM needs more love. Its range is only half of most ranged T0 powers. It just doesn't seem fair -- shorter range and fewer damages. Being a 50ft T0 power, Lash has much better performance. It really needs some change .... and rejudge the overlapped function with Assault Rifle.
Seriously, I think Assault Rifle is more like a T0 power.
BTW, munitions need their own passive.
Agreed. Another damage buff would probably be enough to help TGM out to compensate for the shorter attack range. Lash at least has the poison thing going for it, but many other powers do that better. There's also the knock advantage, so that's... Something.
Maybe an advantage for 2GM that grants armor penetration?
That sounds like an interesting way to make it more viable without simply increasing its damage, and makes thematic sense, since you could argue you have armor piercing rounds. I wonder if it would work and be enough to bring it up to par with other powers.
So the Specialization tool-tips are still broken. I'll be watching the dev tracker for when its fixed but I cant really test out the new system without knowing what they do.
So the Specialization tool-tips are still broken. I'll be watching the dev tracker for when its fixed but I cant really test out the new system without knowing what they do.
This^ thread list all the Spec Trees with a short description for what each spec does, which @Ryko_Nailo thankfully managed to get in before the tool tips broke. Its not as convenient as the tool tips but could work for now if you really want to give them a try. But yeah, I'm hoping that they fix the tool tips soon.
That sounds like an interesting way to make it more viable without simply increasing its damage, and makes thematic sense, since you could argue you have armor piercing rounds. I wonder if it would work and be enough to bring it up to par with other powers.
This would be helpful especially considering that mobs above Henchmen are getting defense now.
What about a Munitions toggle that, when activated, gives all Munitions powers resistance + mitigation piercing via armor-piercing bullets? Then when it's deactivated, it gives Munitions powers extra damage along the lines of Aspect of the ____/Mental Discipline where the boost is applied after everything else? Could explain that as using hollow point bullets instead to give the set something to use against squishier targets.
Secondary Super Stats aren't colored for when you look at items even with those particular stats. It would be a nice QOL update here if they were colored, maybe orange, green, or even a greyish color, to let us know that those are our super stats to at a glance.
This, though we could go into our powers in case we forget just what SS secondary we chose but it still would be nice just to see that at a glance. So I fully support a different coloring for the secondary SS's
Maybe an advantage for 2GM that grants armor penetration?
Munitions just needs a real passive that affects all of its attacks and a toggle. The toggle will be the same 18% damage buff as the other ones, except it's little "stacks to 5" utility would be armor penetration. (which with mobs now actually having defense would be beneficial in pvp and pve.) I've been suggesting it for ages.
The guns in CO are worse than the gun technology we have in real life right now, and yet you're supposed to be a superhero in a made up technologically superior universe. What?
Still think the ritual circles on pets need to go. If not go entirely, then they point amount should at the very least be reduced to 1 so you can get a rank 3 pet without the circle.
Munitions just needs a real passive that affects all of its attacks and a toggle. The toggle will be the same 18% damage buff as the other ones, except it's little "stacks to 5" utility would be armor penetration. (which with mobs now actually having defense would be beneficial in pvp and pve.) I've been suggesting it for ages.
The guns in CO are worse than the gun technology we have in real life right now, and yet you're supposed to be a superhero in a made up technologically superior universe. What?
Why bother? Pistol munitions was only viable due to bullet beat down, and playing it as a melee set.
Bullet beat down is now a hybrid mess of a power only able to be used in hybrid stance.
Unless the mastery for vindicator is absolutely incredible, better performance is found practically in any other framework.
When the percentage of people using the powers drops, maybe the devs will revisit them.
When the percentage of people using the powers drops, maybe the devs will revisit them.
Unfortunately, when the percentage of people using powers drops, the Dev's will simply say that almost no one uses them, so why bother fixing them or making them better?
PS: I dont mean to flame the Dev's with this comment, but I have seen it used too many times to explain why other stuff doesn't get fixed or improved.
For example, such as when people ask why the majority of the travel power skins are for flight. One of the typical answers given is "because the majority of players use flight but not other travel powers?" Which is kind of a circular argument when the majority of travel powers in the game are reskins of flight and up until recently very few alternate skins for other travel powers existed.
Still, I have to say I'm liking the idea of making munitions an armor piercing set. Though, I like having Quarry as my munition toon's passive, so I hope that the armor piercing stuff doesn't get locked behind a new munitions passive, and can vialbly be applied by taking a toggle.
The guns in CO are worse than the gun technology we have in real life right now, and yet you're supposed to be a superhero in a made up technologically superior universe. What?
Yeah, its ironic that firearms are some of the most powerful hand held weapons we have in real life, yet in this game they even get outclassed by swords and unarmed strikes.
I see your bullet beatdown and raise you Psychic Vortex, Celestial Cleansing, Urthona's Charm, Mind Lock, Ego Placate, and Mind Link
EYE BEEEEEEEAMS and Fire Strike and damn all these things do suck. Also can't say I've ever seen anyone use Fire Breath instead of Conflagration, but I also can't say I've ever seen anyone not use Conflagration in a Fire build.
mean?
Is this just a cosmetic change to the description or does it mean a cyclone user now needs Ego?
TBH it kinda seems ranged in the same way sword cyclone is ranged.
Is this just a cosmetic change to the description or does it mean a cyclone user now needs Ego?
TBH it kinda seems ranged in the same way sword cyclone is ranged.
Unfortunately, I think it means I may have to look for another close area attack for my CON/STR rage themed might toon.
PS: I'm really not liking these a lot of these melee/ranged changes were everything that might even arguably be ranged is being treated as simply ranged and melee toons have to either suffer the changes or look for something purely melee if they want to apply any STR.
GRRRRRRRREAT!
lots of unprintable stuff but why get myself banned? and i do mean lots!
I express extreme displeasure on this particular point.
On a more coherent note I was kinda a bit iffy on this ego for ranged and str for melee stuff but figured most of my builds got some ego stacked for crits. Except or course for my own ranged and melee tank. Hopefully it won't make too much odds considering I got enrage on that one. More power to the AOPM rage builds I guess.
So whirling a chain round your head is the same skill tree as firing an assault rifle - well I heard it here first.
GRRRRRRRREAT!
lots of unprintable stuff but why get myself banned? and i do mean lots!
I express extreme displeasure on this particular point.
On a more coherent note I was kinda a bit iffy on this ego for ranged and str for melee stuff but figured most of my builds got some ego stacked for crits. Except or course for my own ranged and melee tank. Hopefully it won't make too much odds considering I got enrage on that one. More power to the AOPM rage builds I guess.
So whirling a chain round your head is the same skill tree as firing an assault rifle - well I heard it here first.
Or throwing rocks! Or tiny pointed whirly things! Makes sense from a gameplay balance perspective, not so much logically. At least there's the advantage to bring back Strength scaling on those.
Unfortunately, I think it means I may have to look for another close area attack for my CON/STR rage themed might toon.
PS: I'm really not liking these a lot of these melee/ranged changes were everything that might even arguably be ranged is being treated as simply ranged and melee toons have to either suffer the changes or look for something purely melee if they want to apply any STR.
You can thank me for this.
I kept pointing out the failure in logic with powers in melee frameworks that were obviously ranged having melee tags (or hybridization) in an attempt to show how painful the melee ranged split is for people trying to build a competative hybrid toon.
Oh SNAP! Buuuuuurrrnnnnn! Since I clearly cannot match wits with an intellectual titan such as yourself I'll leave you with one parting thought before I run off to do something more productive than read forum posts:
Clearly you can't even answer a simple question I asked. Hell instead you resort to being highly sarcastic.
Considering the devs have had multiple opportunities to buff the damage of TGMJ to the same level as TKA, why haven't they?
Simple, no one plays munitions as much as TKA, so not enough people complain about TGM being underpowered compared to TKA. Hell, even I did not realize that TGM was underpowered until a few days ago when I was messing around with it on the pts. And I've been playing since the betas!
There is also the fact that chances are the devs do not play their own game, so they do not see the damage themselves. And if they do play it, than they do not play with TGM.
Hey, look, I can answer a question of yours, but you can't answer a simple question from me? How about instead of being rude you just answer the question: Were you testing those powers on Live instead of the PTS?
Thrown weapons require precision in order to have em land in their intended targets. For example I have all the strength I need to pick up, hold and throw a dart but getting it into the double 20 zone requires a bit of something else.
As far as the ego thing goes I would rather they left the might tree alone altogether - it really is the Hulk Smash set not the olympic javelinist set.
Thrown weapons require precision in order to have em land in their intended targets. For example I have all the strength I need to pick up, hold and throw a dart but getting it into the double 20 zone requires a bit of something else.
As far as the ego thing goes I would rather they left the might tree alone altogether - it really is the Hulk Smash set not the olympic javelinist set.
Comments
PowerHouse
Stuck in Wristbolter firing pose.
TK Assault can't generate Enrage while TGMJ can. And if we're going to dip into other powers in the set, then going with Quarry will provide you with a comparable cost reduction to Ego Leech, not to mention a significant increase in crit severity, dodge, and avoidance.
Listen, I'm not trying to say that TGMJ is better than TKA. I'm just saying that comparing damage and costs and claiming one power is significantly worse than another without looking at the frameworks, mechanics, and synergies, is not accurate as you're simply not seeing the big picture.
I don't really want them to all do the exact same DPS, but it's kind of messed up that 2GM is behind, in comparable circumstances, by about 25% (1500 vs. 2100-2400), even with all of it's supposed 'advantages'. They don't, and never really did, make up for that big of a loss, especially since the only way to significantly buff the power are all found in other sets (you can't stack Enrage without dipping into Might, and you can't even boost it's base damage without dipping into Power Armor or Force).
It's crap and while I don't agree that it needs to be made equivlant (and I don't think that the disparity between the other maintains it's competing with need to be shaped up either - an approximate 300DPS variance is fine between the three, given that they all have different secondary effects and bonuses), I do want it to be made more competitive with those choices so that choosing it is not a straight loss in effectiveness.
If it were boosted to the 1900-2000 DPS range with just an Offensive passive, I'd be fine with it (as it then has bonuses that actually allow it to remain competitive with the other choices present).
Or have we already made that argument? I had a long day, and frankly, my eyes glaze over when some people post...
This thing right here. This sums it all up.
Oooo boy, you really dun schooled me. So is that 2400 the AVERAGE damage, or are you just reporting the max without the variance? TGMJ works with Quarry, Targeting Computer, Kinetic Manipulation, and Way of the Warrior -- all outside the Munitions set. TK Assault works with Ego Form, Shadow Form, and ID Mastery -- only one of which is outside the set. 4 is greater than 1, is it not?
You are the first to make that argument, and the first to provide a valid answer to my question. Thanks.
Average damage, was also hitting up 2600 (most likely the max). Forgot about Quarry. And the bonus from WotW is to low to be useful. Quantity? Who cares about how many can affect it really, its QUALITY over quantity . And in this case, regardless of the 4 passives you use, TGM always deals less damage than TKA. Even if TKA is using ID Mastery, it still does more damage on average than TGM.
Luv! thank you
There are no longer any tool tips coming up for the Specialization Trees.
Well I knew something didn't sound right so I hopped on to do some checking of my own.
On my admittedly low level Munitions character SS DEX/EGO, no passive, with TGMJ and TKA both R2:
TGMJ
80 damage x 7 hits = 3 second maintain, 560 damage
7.7 initial cost, 6.4 per tick = 7.7 + (6.4*7) = 52.5 energy
TKA
66-146 damage (105.5 average) x 9 hits = 4 second maintain, 949.5 damage
10 initial cost, 10 per tick = 10 + (9*10) = 100 energy
So my original statement stands. Shorter maintain time, half the energy cost per maintain, and better DPE.
The boost from WotW is no worse than ID Mastery, so why would you suggest one while discounting the other? And quantity does matter because it provides greater flexibility. To get the best out of TKA you need to use Ego Form or ID Mastery, both of which are in the same set. But with TGMJ you can build a hybrid character with Force, Gadgets, PA, Archery, or MA without gimping yourself. You might not find that bit important, but others do.
Seeing the big picture means understanding there is more than just damage. If all you care about is damage, then TGMJ isn't for you because clearly there are better damage-dealers. But if you care about how a character performs as a complete package, then you realize the damage of a single power really doesn't matter much.
No one is forcing you to take TGMJ. If you think TKA is so much better then take it.
Right...I love how you stopped maintaining TGM with a whole second left to go. Otherwise the tooltip and the devs lie:
And the tooltip even says 4 secs max maintain for TGM. Hell, I was even able to maintain it for 4 secs. Further more, why two SSs? Are you testing this out on...LIVE? Instead of the PTS...which is were this forum is and is about? For if you are "testing" this "info" out on live, than you are doing nothing more than just trolling us here.
Nice try pal.
And obviously you do not know how to read. I said that even with ID Mastery TKA does more damage than TGM. That means that even if TGM had the best passive for it TKA with its worse passive still does better damage. Again, you have failed. Two fails in one post, very nice.
On Live. This is the PTS forum, remember.
If you're looking for pure damage, Ego Form. If you want to boost healing while you're at it, Seraphim. Out of set, buffed heals, and crazy amounts of energy to keep it running forever if you're using it in Support rather than Hybrid.
Force could be viable, and MA is supported rather well by Munitions in a tanking set. Specifically, Lead Tempest. TGM is iffy, but with the recent buff? It's actually a more damaging alternative to Shuriken Throw if the 50 foot range gap isn't an issue and if you've invested nothing into Ego for the range damage buff (or Strength with Shuriken's 1 point advantage).
(also Shuriken Throw has a range of 100 feet WHY SCIENCE WHY)
Yep this is still happening, nothing shows up on the specialization tool tips. Really wanted to see what these were like.
sry it took me this long to reply, yah... I'm aware that there is ways to get crits I'm just not fond of the idea of being forced to do so. (or at least feels that way)
I'm not sure that, "maybe someday something that nothing has been said about by the devs will be done to bosses," is particularly relevant to a discussion about discrepancy in performance between similar powers of the same tier.
Where did you point this out ? I am unaware of any buff to 2GM that isnt equally applicable to the other powers that it is being compared to here that could possibly produce this result. Close the gap doesnt do this, the one stack of enrage it can generate doesnt do this, the two of them together dont do this. I went back and reread all of your posts on this matter and must have missed something.
I dont think that such is the point of a freeform system. I think the FF system exists to allow one to play the hero one wishes to play. A system that punishes a heroes performance because some powers of the same tier are inherently superior to others of the same tier doesnt foster that.
I rank 2GM to 3 for my dual pistols build. It means that my character is weaker than someone who took a TK Assault for example. I also take TK Assault to R3 on my ranged TK build.
I am getting only 4.4% out of a stack of enrage. 4.4% doesnt come even close to balancing 2GM against TK Assault, which gets an inherent critical hit increase that boosts DPS to a much greater degree than is the case for the one stack of enrage (unless your munitions toon SS's STR, at which point he has lost out on crits)
If I take full advantage of the various mechanics available in the munitions framework, my dual pistols toon will not come even close to the performance of a character that takes full advantage of the various mechanics in many other sets.
What more is there to the effectiveness of a power for which damage to a target is its primary purpose?
What more does 2GM have that balances it against the fact that other powers of the same tier and basic type do more damage and have superior secondary effects ?
I'm not sure how anyone could answer that since you are the only one posting that statement. That has not been a point of contention for anyone else here.
Asking for powers that are of the same tier and nearly identical purpose to be balanced against each other is not a statement that, " every power need to be point by point equivalent to every other power."
And with TK Assault I can build a hybrid character with Celestial, Telepathy, Darkness, Arcane Sorcery, Ebon Sorcery, Primal Sorcery, Radiant Sorcery, and Unarmed Martial Arts without gimping myself. So that secondary benefit of 2GM is not really a balancing factor either.
I haven't tried it with the 1 point advantage on my STR/CON character but I wept when the tooltip. 164 damage, down from 230... Stone Shot's at 430ish + 100 for the two seconds of what I got Hurl's cooldown to.
Where it happens: ever time you zone, respawn after death and after cut scenes
what happens: when you close the Tracker doing anyone of the above will Cause it to reopen itself
I blame the whiners who wanted Shuriken to be ranged completely, I also blame them for Bullet Beatdown's focus nerf. Great job guys
From the note:
Munitions: Two-Gun Mojo: Damage increased ~25%. Tap cost increased ~6 Energy, maintain cost increased ~4 Energy. Max maintain time increased to 4 seconds, up from 3 seconds. Now applies/refreshes Enrage if maintained for 2 seconds, instead of requiring a full maintain.
However, it seems to be 3 seconds but not the 2 seconds. 'Cause I got enrage or refreshed enrage at the end of third second.
Oh SNAP! Buuuuuurrrnnnnn! Since I clearly cannot match wits with an intellectual titan such as yourself I'll leave you with one parting thought before I run off to do something more productive than read forum posts:
Considering the devs have had multiple opportunities to buff the damage of TGMJ to the same level as TKA, why haven't they?
Secondary Super Stats aren't colored for when you look at items even with those particular stats. It would be a nice QOL update here if they were colored, maybe orange, green, or even a greyish color, to let us know that those are our super stats to at a glance.
So basically you can't answer my question either. It was a simple question. It doesn't require pages of "what if" scenarios and ridiculous assertions.
Seriously, I think Assault Rifle is more like a T0 power.
BTW, munitions need their own passive.
Telling people not to do what he does himself and ignoring relevant responses that contradict his own viewpoints. So much for intelligent discussion from this one. :rolleyes:
Anyway. On to more relevant things!
Agreed. Another damage buff would probably be enough to help TGM out to compensate for the shorter attack range. Lash at least has the poison thing going for it, but many other powers do that better. There's also the knock advantage, so that's... Something.
When zone into a new zone movement powers are reduced to their rank 1 speeds.
where it happens:
when you zone into any zone first.
How to reproduce:
1) log in with hero and go to a new zone
2) turn on travel power.
I will investigate further to make sure this is what is happening.
Bug 2:
Spec tree UI does not allow for selection for more than one point at a time.
If you tap charge the travel power it will start at level 1 after zoning. This is the case even on live.
Just read his signature people, and you'll understand where you're wrong
That sounds like an interesting way to make it more viable without simply increasing its damage, and makes thematic sense, since you could argue you have armor piercing rounds. I wonder if it would work and be enough to bring it up to par with other powers.
Specialization Tree Info
This^ thread list all the Spec Trees with a short description for what each spec does, which @Ryko_Nailo thankfully managed to get in before the tool tips broke. Its not as convenient as the tool tips but could work for now if you really want to give them a try. But yeah, I'm hoping that they fix the tool tips soon.
This would be helpful especially considering that mobs above Henchmen are getting defense now.
What about a Munitions toggle that, when activated, gives all Munitions powers resistance + mitigation piercing via armor-piercing bullets? Then when it's deactivated, it gives Munitions powers extra damage along the lines of Aspect of the ____/Mental Discipline where the boost is applied after everything else? Could explain that as using hollow point bullets instead to give the set something to use against squishier targets.
This, though we could go into our powers in case we forget just what SS secondary we chose but it still would be nice just to see that at a glance. So I fully support a different coloring for the secondary SS's
Munitions just needs a real passive that affects all of its attacks and a toggle. The toggle will be the same 18% damage buff as the other ones, except it's little "stacks to 5" utility would be armor penetration. (which with mobs now actually having defense would be beneficial in pvp and pve.) I've been suggesting it for ages.
The guns in CO are worse than the gun technology we have in real life right now, and yet you're supposed to be a superhero in a made up technologically superior universe. What?
Why bother? Pistol munitions was only viable due to bullet beat down, and playing it as a melee set.
Bullet beat down is now a hybrid mess of a power only able to be used in hybrid stance.
Unless the mastery for vindicator is absolutely incredible, better performance is found practically in any other framework.
When the percentage of people using the powers drops, maybe the devs will revisit them.
This simply can't be true, lmao.
I see your bullet beatdown and raise you Psychic Vortex, Celestial Cleansing, Urthona's Charm, Mind Lock, Ego Placate, and Mind Link
Unfortunately, when the percentage of people using powers drops, the Dev's will simply say that almost no one uses them, so why bother fixing them or making them better?
PS: I dont mean to flame the Dev's with this comment, but I have seen it used too many times to explain why other stuff doesn't get fixed or improved.
For example, such as when people ask why the majority of the travel power skins are for flight. One of the typical answers given is "because the majority of players use flight but not other travel powers?" Which is kind of a circular argument when the majority of travel powers in the game are reskins of flight and up until recently very few alternate skins for other travel powers existed.
Still, I have to say I'm liking the idea of making munitions an armor piercing set. Though, I like having Quarry as my munition toon's passive, so I hope that the armor piercing stuff doesn't get locked behind a new munitions passive, and can vialbly be applied by taking a toggle.
Yeah, its ironic that firearms are some of the most powerful hand held weapons we have in real life, yet in this game they even get outclassed by swords and unarmed strikes.
EYE BEEEEEEEAMS and Fire Strike and damn all these things do suck. Also can't say I've ever seen anyone use Fire Breath instead of Conflagration, but I also can't say I've ever seen anyone not use Conflagration in a Fire build.
Is this just a cosmetic change to the description or does it mean a cyclone user now needs Ego?
TBH it kinda seems ranged in the same way sword cyclone is ranged.
Unfortunately, I think it means I may have to look for another close area attack for my CON/STR rage themed might toon.
PS: I'm really not liking these a lot of these melee/ranged changes were everything that might even arguably be ranged is being treated as simply ranged and melee toons have to either suffer the changes or look for something purely melee if they want to apply any STR.
lots of unprintable stuff but why get myself banned? and i do mean lots!
I express extreme displeasure on this particular point.
On a more coherent note I was kinda a bit iffy on this ego for ranged and str for melee stuff but figured most of my builds got some ego stacked for crits. Except or course for my own ranged and melee tank. Hopefully it won't make too much odds considering I got enrage on that one. More power to the AOPM rage builds I guess.
So whirling a chain round your head is the same skill tree as firing an assault rifle - well I heard it here first.
Or throwing rocks! Or tiny pointed whirly things! Makes sense from a gameplay balance perspective, not so much logically. At least there's the advantage to bring back Strength scaling on those.
You can thank me for this.
I kept pointing out the failure in logic with powers in melee frameworks that were obviously ranged having melee tags (or hybridization) in an attempt to show how painful the melee ranged split is for people trying to build a competative hybrid toon.
I think it had this result.
Clearly you can't even answer a simple question I asked. Hell instead you resort to being highly sarcastic.
Simple, no one plays munitions as much as TKA, so not enough people complain about TGM being underpowered compared to TKA. Hell, even I did not realize that TGM was underpowered until a few days ago when I was messing around with it on the pts. And I've been playing since the betas!
There is also the fact that chances are the devs do not play their own game, so they do not see the damage themselves. And if they do play it, than they do not play with TGM.
Hey, look, I can answer a question of yours, but you can't answer a simple question from me? How about instead of being rude you just answer the question: Were you testing those powers on Live instead of the PTS?
As far as the ego thing goes I would rather they left the might tree alone altogether - it really is the Hulk Smash set not the olympic javelinist set.
I love that comparison!
How about this one:
The angrier you get, the more damage your guns do, because HATE bullets are more lethal!