Think this is a bug, but you're still able to select the same primary and secondary super stat. Not that I'm complaining, it helps make spirit reverb give back enough energy to fuel my attacks on my healer so I don't have to EB.
You got my point wrong. I think people who find this game challenging are the exception, not the rule. If they want to play easy mode, fine, let them play the current difficulty modes. Adding a meaningful difficulty level on top of what we have now is a better solution than cutting all our numbers down. Remember Cryptic already tried the balance situation you described at launch...
I feel comfortable asking for harder content because history has already shown the inverse (nerfing players) to be ineffective. There's a psychological barrier to beat as soon as players see smaller numbers.
I got what you were saying, the bar is too low, but at the same time there are still enough casual players that have a decent time with the current gameplay, and what this game wants more of is casual players. I do remember what happened launch day but that's because Cryptic went overboard with their "fix," not that the fix was outright wrong. And I do understand that players don't like to be nerfed, but this isn't a case of that. In fact it's the opposite, right now the PvE game is nothing but nerf bats and guns when compared to what players do.
I also understand that the PvP game won't like it, but this isn't about like or dislike, it's about getting the game to function as it "should." Not to mention that there is an extreme disparity between what a PvE character can dish out vs what a PvP character can. Simply raising HP won't magically make all those casual players suddenly do more damage or want to devote more time to learning power interaction, and like I said before, it won't be a noticeable change for a PvP built character.
Lowering the inflated numbers at the higher end of the scale won't hurt PvP or PvE. I don't know how it would; if it takes a player 5 hits to kill another, it'll still take 5 hits, it's just the numbers look smaller, and when those numbers are applied to PvE they would be more reasonable. Instead of doing 10k on a hit you're doing 7k, but your opponent goes from having 10k HP to having 7k as well (this is only an example) so that when similarly built characters are in a PvE situation they don't automatically destroy or ignore what they're fighting.
Im just pointing out what having a damage reduction would feellike , increase npc hp several times and you get the same as decreasing damage, at least pvp wouldn't get hurt by this, if you decrease the damage output - both pvp and pve are getting hurt.
Damage and healing in PvP both kind of need to be reduced.
This game is about diversity. Almost all builds are concept builds when freeform (these aren't archetypes), and punishing people for wanting to actually live up to the idea in their head is silly. In fact, from what I've heard in the forums over the years (and I've been about for a long time, lookit join date) is that the primary frustration comes from the frustration of unfulfilled promises.
Here you have the chance to move away from the trinity. To hell with the trinity! Toss the trinity down the well, then toss a container filled with micro-singularities down the well, then toss a suitcase of C4 down the well, then cast fireball down the well, then fill the well up with ice. Then blink the well out of existence. ...I'm not sure why I'm picking on a well here, but any deep hole will do. Just make sure it is deep.
We need the ability to be able to make more choices with our characters, and sometimes there's a problem with options, because there's an overlap regarding options and restrictions. Sometimes the equation is that options equal restrictions. For example: Having the option to pick Brawler or Avenger is a restriction on having a hybrid between the two. By merging the two roles, you allow for more diversity.
What I've heard that people want is for the game to live up to the promise.
Over the years I've played CO with a bunch of people. You have no idea how many people I've brought into htis game, it's ridiculous. Often, all I have to do is go "LOOK, WEREWOLVES!" and that's enough. I'd dare say that I've brought tens of people into the game, if not more, and what I hear from them if they give up on it is that they're fed up of the restrictions, that they feel too restricted, they feel too tied up in the red tape of the game's mechanics, that it binds their creative freedom.
Where Champions Online can excel is by being a game where you get away from the trinity. Look at what Guild Wars 2 is doing (successfully!):
Colin Johanson: Trinity? Ho ho ho. We have no trinity! 8D Internet: Really??!
And the hype meter shoots to some point over nine thousand.
People like the thought of less restrictions. Restrictions in a game is silly, and people are becoming more and more tired of the WoW-style game where you have restrictions upon restrictions piled on top of you. Champions Online has had this back-and-forth. At one point I was terrified that it would all go downhill and we'd end up as Civilians-Who-Shoot-Colours-From-Their-Hands Online.
But lately things have gotten promising. This new approach to stats seems promising. USE IT. Break down a lot of the restrictions that people feel are weighing them down, that your players feel are truly burdensome. Take this time to look at how your mechanics work and loosen things up a bit. And yes, simplify, because like I said - sometimes too many options can equal too many restrictions.
If you simplify the stats, too, you can provide more options.
What CO needs is less red tape in character building, less restrictions, and more creative freedom. The lack of creative freedom due to the restrictions of the game have been the bane of this game's popularity. People have wanted to put together a certain character, trying to realise the game's promise of hybridisation, but then they run up against restrictions.
And whilst super builders can find workarounds (it took me ages of play to wrap my head around the system and figure out all the workarounds to do that, and that's just not fun), you're turning people who poke their head in out of curiosity away! They pop in, they try out an idea, they're hit by restrictions, kicked up the arse by them, made to feel unwelcome because their ideas just aren't allowed to work, and then they leave.
The system has become obfuscated, clumsy, and burdened by endless restrictions.
Damage and healing in PvP both kind of need to be reduced.
I dont think is that easy when we talk about pvp. The system needs a MAJOR review. I dont see the point in thqt you can only play pvp if you use some kind of build, or some powers. Other way you are just powned without knowing whats happening. Pvp is an exploit fest: found the most broken powers, situations, unbalanced ones and takes advantadges of it. This is why people dont play pvp: you cant join with a conceptual, pve, standart champ and even got any fun.
I dont think is that easy when we talk about pvp. The system needs a MAJOR review. I dont see the point in thqt you can only play pvp if you use some kind of build, or some powers. Other way you are just powned without knowing whats happening. Pvp is an exploit fest: found the most broken powers, situations, unbalanced ones and takes advantadges of it. This is why people dont play pvp: you cant join with a conceptual, pve, standart champ and even got any fun.
Most experienced PvP players use concept PvE characters for PvP. The difference between your average PvP player and your average PvE player is that PvP players tend to exploit synergies more and add more defenses and heals, rather than add extra low-value-added attacks. That's why we're more effective. Concept is not the enemy of effectiveness. Due to the way the game works, thematically linked powers often have synergies built in so that using them together is usually not a stupid idea.
One of my more successful chars is a PvE/PvP healer; the idea was to make a survivable support build that can make going through Therakiel's on Elite easy even with a team of relatively inexperienced ATs. He's built to heal via Iniquity and have enough incoming heals when attacked he can largely ignore small numbers of attacks and continue healing anyway, since I know most ATs can't self-heal well, so I have to be able to make up the healing throughput myself, and can't afford to stop healing them in order to heal myself. How? I exploit power synergies in the form of Seraphim, dodge, and the advantages on BCR and Form of the Master to provide a constant inflow of heals that increases when I'm attacked, plus a top-up power in the form of Conviction so that I can quickly heal myself without spending much time on it. Another character I use is almost exclusively a mystic framework build built around summoning zombies and spreading the plague (I use essentially 2 powersets almost exclusively in that build, including support powers). It's darn effective, yet I run int/ego crit using powers that nearly all add DoTs that can't crit, so it's not like I'm totally optimized to the point of insanity. The last one I want to highlight is my main character. My main started as a soldier AT, and I did very well in freeform PvP for months, so if your FF can't even match up to a soldier AT, you're doing something completely wrong, and maybe you need to rethink your build, because Munitions is considered a low-performing powerset, mostly.
Really, you don't need a specific kind of build, but you do need some basic tools: an Nailed to the Ground applier (more important for melee builds) and a Crippling Challenge applier (important for almost everybody), an energy unlock (because tapping out of energy at a critical moment can be the difference between defeat and victory), a good attack or two that can deal decent damage, and some defenses. Advanced players who've spent months in PvP can drop one or two of these things because they understand their builds in and out, and know exactly what a given power or advantage contributes to how their build works, but newbs shouldn't. Not having these things is probably what's really hurting you the most. Things like Ego Storm and Force Geyser are mostly unnecessary. They may help, they may be potent, but they aren't the things that keep you from being successful.
But y'know, nearly all of those tools are important in PvE too; as a result, optimized PvE builds look an awful lot like PvP builds, because they're basically the same thing. That's actually a good thing; a build setup to run TT well in the typical mode is probably going to do well in PvP with relatively few adjustments, usually which are just to swap out a power or advantage or two. To bring this to a point: when I run TT, NemCon, or Andrith with a bunch of people from coPvP channel, it usually takes half to one-third the amount of time it takes with almost any other group, despite them using so-called "PvP builds", simply because I can expect them to do some basic things: understand the fights and the layouts of the instances, survive mass groups of enemies, and to rip things apart quickly, so we can do things like mass aggro entire rooms and expect maybe one or two of the squiehies to die, but not the healers or tanks.
Here's my guide to building a successful PvP build for the newb: Take any AT you like, add an active defense (I'd recommend Masterful Dodge or Unbreakable for most characters), heals (nearly any heal except Resurgence will work, though ones that don't require targeting an enemy are best), a click damage buff or two (an active offense and maybe either imbue, sonic device, or mini-drive, depending on build and power slots available) as appropriate, and/or a lunge if melee (and one is not already in the powers list of the AT) and pick up the crippling challenge and Nailed to the Ground advantages (both of these advantages are available to ATs on at least one of their powers; you should pick these up), and maybe change out SS REC for INT, and you will have at least a baseline level of effectiveness and be able to succeed in Tier 4 pvp once geared up. The one last thing necessary is to pick up perception gears: if your Int is below 140, make sure to have perception gear in every secondary utility slot. (that includes the secondary part of the primary utility) If above 140, but below 300, put them in 2 secondary utility slots. If 300 or above, put them in 1 secondary utility slot. I'd suggest that you save your free retcon for level 40, where you can go a little further and remove some attacks you don't use much, and maybe replace them with something else more useful. Once you've got that experience, you can start figuring out what works for you and what doesn't.
EDIT: Ugh, you know what, nevermind. This wasn't the point of the thread and people are going to be wrong whether or not I point it out, this is a battle I shouldn't be picking.
Comments
I got what you were saying, the bar is too low, but at the same time there are still enough casual players that have a decent time with the current gameplay, and what this game wants more of is casual players. I do remember what happened launch day but that's because Cryptic went overboard with their "fix," not that the fix was outright wrong. And I do understand that players don't like to be nerfed, but this isn't a case of that. In fact it's the opposite, right now the PvE game is nothing but nerf bats and guns when compared to what players do.
I also understand that the PvP game won't like it, but this isn't about like or dislike, it's about getting the game to function as it "should." Not to mention that there is an extreme disparity between what a PvE character can dish out vs what a PvP character can. Simply raising HP won't magically make all those casual players suddenly do more damage or want to devote more time to learning power interaction, and like I said before, it won't be a noticeable change for a PvP built character.
Lowering the inflated numbers at the higher end of the scale won't hurt PvP or PvE. I don't know how it would; if it takes a player 5 hits to kill another, it'll still take 5 hits, it's just the numbers look smaller, and when those numbers are applied to PvE they would be more reasonable. Instead of doing 10k on a hit you're doing 7k, but your opponent goes from having 10k HP to having 7k as well (this is only an example) so that when similarly built characters are in a PvE situation they don't automatically destroy or ignore what they're fighting.
This game is about diversity. Almost all builds are concept builds when freeform (these aren't archetypes), and punishing people for wanting to actually live up to the idea in their head is silly. In fact, from what I've heard in the forums over the years (and I've been about for a long time, lookit join date) is that the primary frustration comes from the frustration of unfulfilled promises.
Here you have the chance to move away from the trinity. To hell with the trinity! Toss the trinity down the well, then toss a container filled with micro-singularities down the well, then toss a suitcase of C4 down the well, then cast fireball down the well, then fill the well up with ice. Then blink the well out of existence. ...I'm not sure why I'm picking on a well here, but any deep hole will do. Just make sure it is deep.
We need the ability to be able to make more choices with our characters, and sometimes there's a problem with options, because there's an overlap regarding options and restrictions. Sometimes the equation is that options equal restrictions. For example: Having the option to pick Brawler or Avenger is a restriction on having a hybrid between the two. By merging the two roles, you allow for more diversity.
What I've heard that people want is for the game to live up to the promise.
Over the years I've played CO with a bunch of people. You have no idea how many people I've brought into htis game, it's ridiculous. Often, all I have to do is go "LOOK, WEREWOLVES!" and that's enough. I'd dare say that I've brought tens of people into the game, if not more, and what I hear from them if they give up on it is that they're fed up of the restrictions, that they feel too restricted, they feel too tied up in the red tape of the game's mechanics, that it binds their creative freedom.
Where Champions Online can excel is by being a game where you get away from the trinity. Look at what Guild Wars 2 is doing (successfully!):
Colin Johanson: Trinity? Ho ho ho. We have no trinity! 8D
Internet: Really??!
And the hype meter shoots to some point over nine thousand.
People like the thought of less restrictions. Restrictions in a game is silly, and people are becoming more and more tired of the WoW-style game where you have restrictions upon restrictions piled on top of you. Champions Online has had this back-and-forth. At one point I was terrified that it would all go downhill and we'd end up as Civilians-Who-Shoot-Colours-From-Their-Hands Online.
But lately things have gotten promising. This new approach to stats seems promising. USE IT. Break down a lot of the restrictions that people feel are weighing them down, that your players feel are truly burdensome. Take this time to look at how your mechanics work and loosen things up a bit. And yes, simplify, because like I said - sometimes too many options can equal too many restrictions.
If you simplify the stats, too, you can provide more options.
What CO needs is less red tape in character building, less restrictions, and more creative freedom. The lack of creative freedom due to the restrictions of the game have been the bane of this game's popularity. People have wanted to put together a certain character, trying to realise the game's promise of hybridisation, but then they run up against restrictions.
And whilst super builders can find workarounds (it took me ages of play to wrap my head around the system and figure out all the workarounds to do that, and that's just not fun), you're turning people who poke their head in out of curiosity away! They pop in, they try out an idea, they're hit by restrictions, kicked up the arse by them, made to feel unwelcome because their ideas just aren't allowed to work, and then they leave.
The system has become obfuscated, clumsy, and burdened by endless restrictions.
This is what you need to work on, Cryptic.
Yeah, its been almost two weeks without even a bug-squishing patch....
Makes me wonder what they up to also.
I dont think is that easy when we talk about pvp. The system needs a MAJOR review. I dont see the point in thqt you can only play pvp if you use some kind of build, or some powers. Other way you are just powned without knowing whats happening. Pvp is an exploit fest: found the most broken powers, situations, unbalanced ones and takes advantadges of it. This is why people dont play pvp: you cant join with a conceptual, pve, standart champ and even got any fun.
Most experienced PvP players use concept PvE characters for PvP. The difference between your average PvP player and your average PvE player is that PvP players tend to exploit synergies more and add more defenses and heals, rather than add extra low-value-added attacks. That's why we're more effective. Concept is not the enemy of effectiveness. Due to the way the game works, thematically linked powers often have synergies built in so that using them together is usually not a stupid idea.
One of my more successful chars is a PvE/PvP healer; the idea was to make a survivable support build that can make going through Therakiel's on Elite easy even with a team of relatively inexperienced ATs. He's built to heal via Iniquity and have enough incoming heals when attacked he can largely ignore small numbers of attacks and continue healing anyway, since I know most ATs can't self-heal well, so I have to be able to make up the healing throughput myself, and can't afford to stop healing them in order to heal myself. How? I exploit power synergies in the form of Seraphim, dodge, and the advantages on BCR and Form of the Master to provide a constant inflow of heals that increases when I'm attacked, plus a top-up power in the form of Conviction so that I can quickly heal myself without spending much time on it. Another character I use is almost exclusively a mystic framework build built around summoning zombies and spreading the plague (I use essentially 2 powersets almost exclusively in that build, including support powers). It's darn effective, yet I run int/ego crit using powers that nearly all add DoTs that can't crit, so it's not like I'm totally optimized to the point of insanity. The last one I want to highlight is my main character. My main started as a soldier AT, and I did very well in freeform PvP for months, so if your FF can't even match up to a soldier AT, you're doing something completely wrong, and maybe you need to rethink your build, because Munitions is considered a low-performing powerset, mostly.
Really, you don't need a specific kind of build, but you do need some basic tools: an Nailed to the Ground applier (more important for melee builds) and a Crippling Challenge applier (important for almost everybody), an energy unlock (because tapping out of energy at a critical moment can be the difference between defeat and victory), a good attack or two that can deal decent damage, and some defenses. Advanced players who've spent months in PvP can drop one or two of these things because they understand their builds in and out, and know exactly what a given power or advantage contributes to how their build works, but newbs shouldn't. Not having these things is probably what's really hurting you the most. Things like Ego Storm and Force Geyser are mostly unnecessary. They may help, they may be potent, but they aren't the things that keep you from being successful.
But y'know, nearly all of those tools are important in PvE too; as a result, optimized PvE builds look an awful lot like PvP builds, because they're basically the same thing. That's actually a good thing; a build setup to run TT well in the typical mode is probably going to do well in PvP with relatively few adjustments, usually which are just to swap out a power or advantage or two. To bring this to a point: when I run TT, NemCon, or Andrith with a bunch of people from coPvP channel, it usually takes half to one-third the amount of time it takes with almost any other group, despite them using so-called "PvP builds", simply because I can expect them to do some basic things: understand the fights and the layouts of the instances, survive mass groups of enemies, and to rip things apart quickly, so we can do things like mass aggro entire rooms and expect maybe one or two of the squiehies to die, but not the healers or tanks.
Here's my guide to building a successful PvP build for the newb: Take any AT you like, add an active defense (I'd recommend Masterful Dodge or Unbreakable for most characters), heals (nearly any heal except Resurgence will work, though ones that don't require targeting an enemy are best), a click damage buff or two (an active offense and maybe either imbue, sonic device, or mini-drive, depending on build and power slots available) as appropriate, and/or a lunge if melee (and one is not already in the powers list of the AT) and pick up the crippling challenge and Nailed to the Ground advantages (both of these advantages are available to ATs on at least one of their powers; you should pick these up), and maybe change out SS REC for INT, and you will have at least a baseline level of effectiveness and be able to succeed in Tier 4 pvp once geared up. The one last thing necessary is to pick up perception gears: if your Int is below 140, make sure to have perception gear in every secondary utility slot. (that includes the secondary part of the primary utility) If above 140, but below 300, put them in 2 secondary utility slots. If 300 or above, put them in 1 secondary utility slot. I'd suggest that you save your free retcon for level 40, where you can go a little further and remove some attacks you don't use much, and maybe replace them with something else more useful. Once you've got that experience, you can start figuring out what works for you and what doesn't.
This was a perfectly articulated post highlighting how much of the PvE vs PvP dichotomy is an illusion. Thank you.
My only regret is that so few people will actually read the whole thing.