1) Please restore the damage in lieu of gratuitous needless Threat (i.e. 30/ 15/ 15 damage; 15/ 7.5/ 7.5 instead of the other way around).
2) Please give Tank role an inherent small damage mitigation in addition to or instead of pretty much all or part of the HP buff and/or pointless hold resist.
If Threat needs to be excessive, at least do # 1 and say, add more to the Protector Threat bonus. Make it 20 or 25%.
As it stands, tanks will be killing themselves trying to stay in Hybrid whatever they have to do (to have some REAL damage and the scrumptious self-heal bonus WHICH IS ALSO INDIRECT THREAT!!), and you have an almost completely useless Role, gimped to hell and back.
Learn the hard way, receive slurrious (I just made that up yes) complaints down the road, or preempt this madness.
Do you not understand what Tanking is? Its not "Free Defensive Bonus for no downside". Your role is to be as attractive to all the bad things in the area as possible, hold the entire aggro while the damage dealers and healers are free to do their thing.
Its not supposed to be up to you to do the damage. If you're trying to do damage or are playing by yourself, you should be trying to build for Hybrid in the first place.
The Tank Role, is set up to Tank. Not Heal, Not Attack, you are supposed to absorb damage and be the distraction. You will still be adding to the damage, but you are not the primary offense.
The Tank Role, is set up to Tank. Not Heal, Not Attack, you are supposed to absorb damage and be the distraction. You will still be adding to the damage, but you are not the primary offense.
Useful things for when taking the hits (i.e. drawn aggro):
Self-heal
Damage mitigation
HP can be useful, but its really small potatoes compared to the above. You need those, regardless of HP.
If you cannot take the hits, you cannot handle the aggro. Inherently bonuses designed to take the hits aren't out of order are they? Those two components above are already sought after as critical to tanks or they wouldn't want the powers that do all that.
Tanks didn't like some PRE in the old system just for Threat. It was synergistic extra in combo with the self-heal for things like Conviction.
Now, admittedly, damage isn't central for the tank, but what I'm asking here is really just a shift of where the threat comes from. Threat wouldn't change, and Tank would still have it's sizable bonus to Threat. But...
I just think our tanks will be loathe to come out of Hybrid for a bunch of excessive, perhaps wasted threat. Hybrid's healing bonus is like to factor into this, no? If the job can be done in Hybrid, why bother leaving it? Basically the only reasons would be to eclipse Hybrid DPSers and say, to tank without bothering with CC and CS.
The damage shift is just to make it feel less gimped. And I still refuse to believe even that Threat % is going to be 100% the same as damage threat %.
Overall it seems the roles have gotten inherent boosts, bonuses. What is the change to inherents (i.e. not predicated off of SSs) for Tank? .05 increase to hold resist?
They don't make sense when one is locked on tunnel vision for this issue being threat alone, and especially when they're more focused on being condescending than even trying to understand.
I'm more interested in the bigger picture of the balance of the choice between the roles, and simply the feel of the strength of the Tank role in comparison to the rest.
The Tank Role, is set up to Tank. Not Heal, Not Attack, you are supposed to absorb damage and be the distraction. You will still be adding to the damage, but you are not the primary offense.
Stop asking for changes that don't make sense.
Er.. Tanks need to be fun. If they're not, people won't play them. Mashing Defensive Combo, as a way to slaughter your foes, is not fun because the attack is rather bad in every way save for its ability to hold a monster's attention.. and holding a monster's attention doesn't put them down.
Right now, threat isn't anything that can be applied to PvP. Its not even a mechanic when soloing in PvE. It exists solely for teams. Nobody cares about it until you don't have enough of it. And if you don't have enough of it, you become sub-par DPS.
Tanks need to attack. They need various ways to attack. They need to feel powerful. They need to feel survivable. And right now, the Tank role is looking very niche as it is a 25% health buff and roughly half as much damage as any other role. And further compounding this is that a great deal of survivability as tanks comes from self-healing and Hybrid does a better job of it.
The threat of the Tank role needs to have another applicable effect, something other than just keeping the attention of PvE creatures. Debuff a target's damage, for example. That would increase Tank survivability and if it was equally applied to PvP, would give people reason to deal with a tank instead of ignoring the weakest DPS in the room.
Useful things for when taking the hits (i.e. drawn aggro):
Self-heal
Damage mitigation
HP can be useful, but its really small potatoes compared to the above. You need those, regardless of HP.
These things can be taken care of by choosing your powers, i don't see why it should be included in a role
DPS perhaps, but did you try compare with Healing?
You know the guys with Seraphim or Medical Nanites thatgotr all the aggro just by appearing in a room.
This is something that need to be tested as well.
it's a genuine questions because with alerts coming in the way, and seeing that alert is teaming content we may want to be sure that teaming feel right.
That's fine, I'm just saying a role merger is one of many options and why. Personally I don't know which would be preferable, but I don't see the point in separating ranged and melee other than tradition - offense is offense, and what was once the argument - ranged should get more damage since melee gets more defense / defense should get more damage since ranged has first strike advantage while melee approaches - is pretty much moot now. Ranged or Melee doesn't matter, not practically.
As to keeping them separate, I'm ok with that too, but as has been said, Ranged O needs some kind of additional damage boosting layer similar to the forms and enrage to be able to compete because there's just no proper synergy in the ranged attacks.
Finally, as you've mentioned, some sets are Hybrids themselves, and it's counter-intuitive, IMO, to have sets like this and not have a role that fully supports them. For this reason, I think merging range and melee Offensive role would be the best solution - the layers work - stats support the set, and the set is boosted by the role. The role is only as important as the set - if it's an offensive set it needs an offensive role, support needs support, and defensive needs defensive - so it doesn't make sense to me that the set is defined by the role rather than supported/enhanced by it. In addition, tweaking the powers like was done to shuriken, is silly. It's a group of smaller changes, potentially ongoing as new sets/powers are introduced vs a single change back to a system that was already in place. The problem with Avenger wasn't that it was melee and ranged in one, it was that Avenger was just bad overall.
TL;DR - What is the goal, and what is the simplest solution to achieve that goal while minimizing the negative consequences.
edit:
I think this is counter productive, root + increased kiting = back to where we were. Also I don't think not being able to kite is the problem with the Ranged role, but rather that it lacks anything to make up for the lack of boost synergy in the ranged sets, or any synergy at all in the hybrid sets.
Er.. Tanks need to be fun. If they're not, people won't play them. Mashing Defensive Combo, as a way to slaughter your foes, is not fun because the attack is rather bad in every way save for its ability to hold a monster's attention.. and holding a monster's attention doesn't put them down.
Right now, threat isn't anything that can be applied to PvP. Its not even a mechanic when soloing in PvE. It exists solely for teams. Nobody cares about it until you don't have enough of it. And if you don't have enough of it, you become sub-par DPS.
Tanks need to attack. They need various ways to attack. They need to feel powerful. They need to feel survivable. And right now, the Tank role is looking very niche as it is a 25% health buff and roughly half as much damage as any other role. And further compounding this is that a great deal of survivability as tanks comes from self-healing and Hybrid does a better job of it.
The threat of the Tank role needs to have another applicable effect, something other than just keeping the attention of PvE creatures. Debuff a target's damage, for example. That would increase Tank survivability and if it was equally applied to PvP, would give people reason to deal with a tank instead of ignoring the weakest DPS in the room.
Agree on the first statement - they must be fun, yes (and they are for the people that like tanking, you shouldn't be a tank), but they shouldn't be an i win by default like you're suggesting. Tank doesn't have to do much damage, if you don't like it play other role, because being invulnerable and doing good damage isn't a good thing, that's poor balance.
when it comes to team-play:
tank=meant to soak dmg and draw aggro
dps(ranged/melee)=kill stuff, do dmg etc
healer/support=keep the group alive
that's the concept of it, it won't change. i don't care what anyone says about it, because that's their logic behind the role changes too (believe it or not).
back on topic.
tanks, as they are now(live) can't hold aggro with PRE SSed... that extra threat from secondaries and your primary won't be any different if you ask me.
another thing they could do, is change how passives work in different roles(i already mentioned this before):
offensive passives will gain from offensive roles
defensive passives will gain from defensive role
support passives will gain from support role
hybrid role will not gain bonuses but keep the normal bonuses
so defiance for example on a tank role will be 25% per stack instead of the normal 18% with 300 con etc(numbers are just an example) and so on for the other roles.
Do me a solid and don't quote me, and then talk about role merger.
I don't support it.
I just want the same duality the devs gave the shuriken ranged powers in the martial arts melee tress for the melee powers in the ranged technology trees. The alternative is to remove that duality from shuriken powers.
Its just a question of fairness.
I like the ranged and melee roles seperation, but I want the same stat duality that shuriken was given for technology melee.
Do me a solid and don't quote me, and then talk about role merger.
I don't support it.
I just want the same duality the devs gave the shuriken ranged powers in the martial arts melee tress for the melee powers in the ranged technology trees. The alternative is to remove that duality from shuriken powers.
Its just a question of fairness.
I like the ranged and melee roles seperation, but I want the same stat duality that shuriken was given for technology melee.
Here i'm really in the same boat with you.
People were always crying to give guardian more benefits, but on live at least guardian has more HPs than avenger.
If we now have a all damage role with guardian HPs then suddenly there is not really any reason to play guardian
with an offensive passive. Only the defense passive characters now have to take it if they don't want to get
the damage nerf that Protector now has.
So if Avenger and Brawler will be combined, then i would say get also rid of guardian and don't nerf Protector
so that we really have just our trinity.
Useful things for when taking the hits (i.e. drawn aggro):
Self-heal
Damage mitigation
HP can be useful, but its really small potatoes compared to the above. You need those, regardless of HP.
These things can be taken care of by choosing your powers, i don't see why it should be included in a role
I don't agree, you can also take these powers if you are playing as an hybrid (and Heal/Self-Heal is included in the Hybrid role but oddly it doesn't seem to bother you :rolleyes: ). You'll be even more effective if you play as an hybrid rather than a tank: more threat because more damage, more survivability because better self heal and better overall performance thanks to a better energy building. So yes if you want to play a Tank (meaning: aggro and enough defense to handle it), for now Hybrid is a better choice. And "choose" your powers can't be considered as a valid answer.
Er.. Tanks need to be fun. If they're not, people won't play them. Mashing Defensive Combo, as a way to slaughter your foes, is not fun because the attack is rather bad in every way save for its ability to hold a monster's attention.. and holding a monster's attention doesn't put them down.
Mashing defensive Combo isn't fun indeed and it doesn't work so well on top of that, a good DPS can still "over threat" you quite easily.
I wasn't comparing hybrids and dps roles, I meant: how do they perform in comparison with the current guardians/brawlers/avengers? If these new roles dish out more damage than the old ones, you'll have to raise defenses in balance (for NPCs and defensive passives for players, especially tanks).
That's kinda what I meant, but I guess I lost track.
It's still both - they perform both better and worse compared to what is currently on live. I say this because they are more specialized so it widens the gap between Hybrid and Avenger. Like I said, Avenger get's a better spike because of it, it's higher than on live, by a good amount so thats better. However the changes also potentially limit it's ability to recover energy and take damage so thats kind of worse. But that's just one particular build, not all will perform that way, some may be all better and some may be completely broken. It's an adjustment, but for the most part it's a lot of positive for the majority (AFAIK).
I don't agree, you can also take these powers if you are playing as an hybrid (and Heal/Self-Heal is included in the Hybrid role but oddly it doesn't seem to bother you :rolleyes: ). You'll be even more effective if you play as an hybrid rather than a tank: more threat because more damage, more survivability because better self heal and better overall performance thanks to a better energy building. So yes if you want to play a Tank (meaning: aggro and enough defense to handle it), for now Hybrid is a better choice. And "choose" your powers can't be considered as a valid answer.
Mashing defensive Combo isn't fun indeed and it doesn't work so well on top of that, a good DPS can still "over threat" you quite easily.
I can reverse your argument if you want to pull enough aggro as a tank from a support and DPS as an tank playing in hybrid role, you will have to put advantage point on CS and CC.
You will have more DPS in hybrid than someone on tank role,yes but any of the offensive will out-damage you and healing as well.
I can reverse your argument if you want to pull enough aggro as a tank from a support and DPS as an tank playing in hybrid role, you will have to put advantage point on CS and CC.
You will have more DPS in hybrid than someone on tank role,yes but any of the offensive will out-damage you and healing as well.
Not entirely clear here, but it seems you're saying that DPS roles can out damage Hybrids, and would therefore pull more threat. So in order to hold threat as a Hybrid, instead of a Tank, you'd need CC/CS.
Which is entirely a false statement.
Here's a post from the previous PTS Update thread that goes further into the point.
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are -10%, -18% and -10% with a multiplicative role modifier of -10% for a total of -41.8% threat. 4623 * (1 - 0.418) = 2691 so a mob "sees" 2691 damage from the actual 4623 damage.
Tank Role (LR + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 3061
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are 20%, 37% and 21% with a multiplicative role modifier of 10% for a total of +85% threat. 3061 * 1.85 = 5663 so a mob "sees" 5663 damage from the actual 3061 damage.
Conclusions:
Despite the damage role providing the highest damage, it yields the lowest threat. Tank role appears to be useless as the bonus threat does not look to be needed since even a Hybrid role with a defensive passive deals enough damage to keep aggro off a damage role character (all other things equal) even without using any threat gaining advantages.
This also means that offensive melee/ranged hybrids which are forced to use the Hybrid role will have the hardest time controlling their aggro while dealing sub par damage compared to their damage role counterparts. This truly is the final nail in the coffin of ranged/melee hybrids.
I can reverse your argument if you want to pull enough aggro as a tank from a support and DPS as an tank playing in hybrid role, you will have to put advantage point on CS and CC.
You will have more DPS in hybrid than someone on tank role,yes but any of the offensive will out-damage you and healing as well.
ZephyrAM gave you a good answer for that, I'll just add that you don't seem to get my point, I'm not comparing Tanks and Hybrids with an offense passive, and I am not comparing Hybrids to DPS roles.
Hybrid with defensive passive =
- same damage mitigation than tanks
- more damage than tanks
- better self healing
- better energy management wich means more sustained damage and self-healing
- enough threat generation to do the job unless there's an other hybrid in the team (but I'm not adding CC and CS bonuses that could fill the gap).
Now add CC and CS to your Hybrid and you'll have a real tank able to keep aggro on itself and survive. You'll perform better than Tanks in their own specialization. Meaning, if you want to play a tank and still have fun playing solo or worth something in a team -> make an Hybrid with a defensive passive and use CS/CC.
Do you not understand what Tanking is? Its not "Free Defensive Bonus for no downside". Your role is to be as attractive to all the bad things in the area as possible, hold the entire aggro while the damage dealers and healers are free to do their thing.
Its not supposed to be up to you to do the damage. If you're trying to do damage or are playing by yourself, you should be trying to build for Hybrid in the first place.
The Tank Role, is set up to Tank. Not Heal, Not Attack, you are supposed to absorb damage and be the distraction. You will still be adding to the damage, but you are not the primary offense.
Stop asking for changes that don't make sense.
Seems like what these changes with regard to the roles are doing is getting them closer to what they were intended to be in the first place, an option for folks that want trinity game play. If that is the case, the changes are probably going to drive some away from soloing or PvPing in Protector or in Sentinel. I'm guessing we'll see more people soloing in an offensive role or hybrid if these changes hit live substantially as is. That is neither a good nor a bad thing, it's just a thing. There have been comments that the downside to running in Protector and Sentinel were outweighed by their benefits -- now that might be changing.
That said, let's not bring "making sense" into this. If "sense" were involved mobs would ignore the silly tank whose attacks tickle them, squash the healer, then feast on the dps. In games, there's not much that makes less sense than the trinity. Better to say that the tank role is designed to allow someone to play that role in a traditional MMO play style, not be yet another tool for people to maximize their toons.
ZephyrAM gave you a good answer for that, I'll just add that you don't seem to get my point, I'm not comparing Tanks and Hybrids with an offense passive, and I am not comparing Hybrids to DPS roles.
Yes thanks to ZephyrAM to write down clearly what I explained poorly
I missed the numbers calculated by Falchoin as well.
That put things on perspective.
I think the main problem is that with hybrid you have enough threat management to do the job, rendering a real tank role not necessary.
While I like that the PA framework has a niche melee ability and advantages in both the move itself and in it's block enhancer to go along with that melee niche. The Laser Sword can hit pretty doggone hard if you don't take the block advantage, take Particle Accel adv and have the energy to spare. If it starts getting the desired bonus that The_Last is asking for then it'll probably hit even harder. Perhaps maybe too hard?
I don't know of another melee attack off the top of my head that can mitigate ~30% resistance fully stacked and can be spammed to the same degree that this move can.
While I like that the PA framework has a niche melee ability and advantages in both the move itself and in it's block enhancer to go along with that melee niche. The Laser Sword can hit pretty doggone hard if you don't take the block advantage, take Particle Accel adv and have the energy to spare. If it starts getting the desired bonus that The_Last is asking for then it'll probably hit even harder. Perhaps maybe too hard?
I don't know of another melee attack off the top of my head that can mitigate ~30% resistance fully stacked and can be spammed to the same degree that this move can.
Please compare are the dps of shuriken to the ranged attacks in technology please.
Then realize you can buff shuriken with focus.
I am not asking for the the melee technology to be buffed by both offensive roles.
This is completely independent of the melee and ranged role.
Read the patch notes: I want the technology melee to get the same either/or buff from ego or str just like shuriken, and shuriken storm. If a ranged attack in a melee frame work gets that hybrid buff from stats, then a melee power in a ranged framework should get the same.
It's a question of fairness. I will also accept the removal of this hybridization from the shuriken powers.
Please compare are the dps of shuriken to the ranged attacks in technology please.
Then realize you can buff shuriken with focus.
I am not asking for the the melee technology to be buffed by both offensive roles.
This is completely independent of the melee and ranged role.
Read the patch notes: I want the technology melee to get the same either/or buff from ego or str just like shuriken, and shuriken storm. If a ranged attack in a melee frame work gets that hybrid buff from stats, then a melee power in a ranged framework should get the same.
It's a question of fairness. I will also accept the removal of this hybridization from the shuriken powers.
This is not about roles!
Aint talking about roles. I'm asking that if Laser Sword, as a specific example, gets the Shuriken buff treatment then won't that end up making it hit way too hard? As it is now it can still hit like a truck.
Aint talking about roles. I'm asking that if Laser Sword, as a specific example, gets the Shuriken buff treatment then won't that end up making it hit way too hard? As it is now it can still hit like a truck.
It's not a buff to absolutes. At max damage bonus, Laser Sword would hit as hard after this change as before.
You'd just be more flexible in making builds to use it.
Aint talking about roles. I'm asking that if Laser Sword, as a specific example, gets the Shuriken buff treatment then won't that end up making it hit way too hard? As it is now it can still hit like a truck.
Define "hit like a truck." Back it up with some numbers, please.
Maintains of Lightning Arc and TK Assault can, without too much effort, hit for 1-2k per tick, which is somewhere in the range of 8k damage per full maintain, iirc. They both can trigger an energy unlock that makes them infinitely spammable, as well. Both of those are 100' ranged powers, low tier, and TK Assault is even a mobile maintain.
How does Laser Sword compare? How does Laser Sword compare to Shuriken, which can reach similar damage numbers?
Also, IIRC Shuriken does not benefit from Focus, but that may have changed with one of the more recent patches.
Aint talking about roles. I'm asking that if Laser Sword, as a specific example, gets the Shuriken buff treatment then won't that end up making it hit way too hard? As it is now it can still hit like a truck.
Did you read the patch notes?
All I am asking is that laser sword, chainsaw and bullet beat down scale off of the higher of your str or ego stat, exactly like they scale off off str now.
Again in case you missed it: they scale off of strength right now... I am asking for hybridization.
Martial Arts: Shuriken Throw: The damage bonus this power gets now scales with either your Melee Damage bonus (from Strength) or your Ranged Damage bonus (from Ego), whichever is higher.
Martial Arts: Shuriken Storm: The damage bonus this power gets now scales with either your Melee Damage bonus (from Strength) or your Ranged Damage bonus (from Ego), whichever is higher.
Edit, It used to get the focus buff, I must have missed when it peas removed.
Thanks for the info
The threat of the Tank role needs to have another applicable effect, something other than just keeping the attention of PvE creatures. Debuff a target's damage, for example. That would increase Tank survivability and if it was equally applied to PvP, would give people reason to deal with a tank instead of ignoring the weakest DPS in the room.
I could be on board for this. It seems fairly consistent of anyone looking hard and considering the reality of this role, that it needs something. I've done precious little PvP so can't comment there, but this sounds good for PvE as well.
A damage debuff built into the Tank's attacks isn't out of order considering CC and CS do something like this already.
Might as well make their 'taunt' more of a taunt. Question is, how big of a debuff? 10, 15, 20%?
Hybrid with defensive passive =
- same damage mitigation than tanks
- more damage than tanks
- better self healing
- better energy management wich means more sustained damage and self-healing
- enough threat generation to do the job unless there's an other hybrid in the team (but I'm not adding CC and CS bonuses that could fill the gap).
Now add CC and CS to your Hybrid and you'll have a real tank able to keep aggro on itself and survive. You'll perform better than Tanks in their own specialization. Meaning, if you want to play a tank and still have fun playing solo or worth something in a team -> make an Hybrid with a defensive passive and use CS/CC.
Excellent summing up of my very same observations so far.
I think the main problem is that with hybrid you have enough threat management to do the job, rendering a real tank role not necessary.
Should I welcome you aboard the Worry Train?
Since its unlikely they'll mash in threat-reduction to Hybrid or nerf it any, it remains still that the best scenario here is to give Tank something more to make it attractive and viable. It seems to beg for it to me. The Devs have numerous suggestions and many options for closing the gap here, I hope they do something with it.
As long as sweeping changes are at least being considered, can there be a thought about the power of AoEs vs Single target attacks?
In my opinion, one of the biggest problems Champions faces is the proliferation of powerful AoEs that can and often do eclipse single target attacks, and is a major factor why many claim the game is too easy.
If your AoE will just dissolve everything you face all on it's own, what are the single target attacks even needed for?
Don't get me wrong, I love the feeling of a powerful. High tier AoE that I've built for for some time finally being attained, and making my adventuring life so much easier, because I can use it to make a whole group or two go bye-bye, but even though I am not a fan in general of cooldowns, I think maybe in this case something needs to be done to prevent powers like these from becoming your one touch "I win" button.
Darkness' Ebon rift is great fun and mostly works because it has it's cooldown, so that users can't just rely on it in every moment. Many quite powerful AoEs and PBAoEs however, can be spammed indefinitely, particularly once a good energy unlock is also taken, and this really is ultimately a problem.
I don't have an easy answer, but for an ideal solution, Single target attacks should [at the same energy rates anyway] greatly eclipse AoEs, and I currently feel the best ones do, but the AoEs are so strong it doesn't matter. Most things you'd "need" to use your Single target attack on can be beaten almost as well with just the AoEs also.
Once a long time ago, before launch, I felt the games combat system was "awesome", but a little too fast. If anything, the game has only gotten faster since then, especially on a DPS or just plain well built character.
____________________________
I once argued "The game is great, but the fights are over so fast, and our defenses hardly matter if anything that might threaten us is defeated before it gets more than a shot or two off."
Now I'm going back over my old alpha and beta notes, and thinking the same thing basically. I'm not saying I want or need for any group of minions I roll up on to be a serious threat to typical heroes, but maybe all outgoing damage in general, especially AoE damage, can be toned down, let a fight play out longer then five to ten seconds, make them a little more meaningful in our choices.
Even a DPS "squishy' should be able to survive taking on such a group of minions, but also not instantly blow the group up at no danger to himself, while a Defense passive user might enjoy having the fight play out longer, actually seeing how effective his choice of defense is over the course of the fight.
Currently only Elite and lairs really offer this, and I suppose that's one way to do it, although Elite unfairly Nerfs player Charge up attacks vs Maintains, due to the large Dodge buff for foes.
I suppose I advocate making those "One shot wonder" big attacks, really a bit more rare and special. I think the fun of just tearing through everything in your path willy-nilly at no real risk does get a little hollow after a while, and Elite only partially satisfies this.
I think the base group rate for henchmen should be 5 (up from 3). And i don't know why more of them don't use the reinforcement system but i wish they did.
Game is too easy. Bring back the things that made it tough. Including a huge boost to machines vs paranormal damage. And other differing damage type PvE balances.
Please compare are the dps of shuriken to the ranged attacks in technology please.
Then realize you can buff shuriken with focus.
I am not asking for the the melee technology to be buffed by both offensive roles.
This is completely independent of the melee and ranged role.
Read the patch notes: I want the technology melee to get the same either/or buff from ego or str just like shuriken, and shuriken storm. If a ranged attack in a melee frame work gets that hybrid buff from stats, then a melee power in a ranged framework should get the same.
It's a question of fairness. I will also accept the removal of this hybridization from the shuriken powers.
This is not about roles!
Shuriken gets buffed by forms? thats news to me. its MA set, so it needs that duality, otherwise itd be useless for MA.
Define "hit like a truck." Back it up with some numbers, please.
Maintains of Lightning Arc and TK Assault can, without too much effort, hit for 1-2k per tick, which is somewhere in the range of 8k damage per full maintain, iirc. They both can trigger an energy unlock that makes them infinitely spammable, as well. Both of those are 100' ranged powers, low tier, and TK Assault is even a mobile maintain.
How does Laser Sword compare? How does Laser Sword compare to Shuriken, which can reach similar damage numbers?
Also, IIRC Shuriken does not benefit from Focus, but that may have changed with one of the more recent patches.
I'm only going to concern myself with the bolded portion. I don't really care about the Lightning Arc and TK assault argument, that's not what this is about anyway.
Just went to the test shard with a baseline level 40.
Using different passives as well as no passive I tested the damage of Shuriken Throw and Laser Sword
Innate Talent: The Hero
No gear
Primary SS: REC for less downtime between tests
Secondaries: EGO, STR so that these stats will be dead even and give exactly the same bonus
Resulting stats:
REC 93 (151 AoPM) +19% dmg strength (+26%)
EGO 53 (113 AoPM) [56 Quarry buff} +9.6% dmg strength, +15% ranged dmg (+18%, +24%) [+10%, +16%]
STR 53 (113 AoPM) +9.6% dmg strength, +15% melee dmg (+18%, +24%)
Testing on lvl 40 dummies. Shuriken Throw R3(4 attacks):
Baseline(no passive) ~390-410 dmg per
Unstoppable R3 ~450-470 dmg per
Quarry R1 ~ 460-490 per after full Audacity
Kinetic Manip R3 ~490 - 530 per
WotW R3 ~470-480 per
AoPM ~480-510 per
All of these were done with and without Form of the Tempest, there was no difference.
Laser Sword R3(4 attacks)
Baseline(no passive) ~540-640 per (620-710 w/ FotT R3)
Unstoppable ~ 690-790per (770-870 FotT)
Elec Form R3 ~740-830 per (820-840 FotT)
Quarry R1~ 620-630 per after full audacity (720-760 FotT+ Audacty)
WotW R3 ~ 730-800 per (770-860 FotT)
AoPM R3~ 670-760 per (690-780 FotT)
So with the same amount of damage bonuses from stats applied to each move and utilizing a number of different passive both with and without using a MA form, Laser Sword consecutively hits harder than the shuriken. Obviously with gear and talents these numbers will be higher but a fully ranked Shuriken Throw doesn't come close to a fully ranked Laser Sword. Perhaps if Quarry were fully ranked there would be some difference but I can't see it being enough to help.
You asked for numbers and there they are.
Ultimately my main point is that while shuriken may be buffed by the higher of STR or EGO it pales in comparison to at least one of the melee moves in the Technology framework if given the same treatment. While MA toons will have a decent ranged attack the Technology toons will have a melee move(s?) that packs probably too much of a punch in comparison.
tl;dr
MA toons: high melee, decent ranged attack
Tech toons: high ranged, omg get it off me melee
You do realize this is exactly my argument for technology?
ehh, some powers i see your point, like bullet beatdown, but others shouldnt change, like gauntlet chainsaw. Laser Sword should work with ego and str too since its energy dmg and a melee attack.
they won't touch tech, i'd remove it from shuriken myself. leave reason aside:
shuriken is a 100ft melee attack. what it should be, is a ranged 50ft(at most) power.
as for the others
laser sword, is still a sword(melee weapon), and so is a chainsaw(not to mention gauntlet is worn on your hand, and that's melee range). bullet beatdown is the exception, it should gain from both str and ego.
Do you not understand what Tanking is? Its not "Free Defensive Bonus for no downside". Your role is to be as attractive to all the bad things in the area as possible, hold the entire aggro while the damage dealers and healers are free to do their thing.
Its not supposed to be up to you to do the damage. If you're trying to do damage or are playing by yourself, you should be trying to build for Hybrid in the first place.
The Tank Role, is set up to Tank. Not Heal, Not Attack, you are supposed to absorb damage and be the distraction. You will still be adding to the damage, but you are not the primary offense.
Stop asking for changes that don't make sense.
Yeah, the walking meatshield who hurls "yo-mamma" jokes around and does nothing other than tickle people while everyone else does the heavy lifting.
I hate them, so very much. Their very existence is abhorrent, anti-immersive, tactically unsound, it is from their impotence that the tyranny of the unholy trinity is spawned and perpetuated.
I will take this time, to remind everyone that math is relative, and you can, in fact, make all the roles have no downsides other than the opportunity cost of not using another role. But that is just semantics.
Now I will point out, the DPS roles are quite viable for solo play. The tank role, is not. If you are freeform, you should never be in the tank role unless you are in a group, hybrid is just better by every metric. And even then you can build a better group tank around the hybrid role. In contrast, AT's are just left to rot forever in tank role. This is an inequity that must be addressed and reworked.
Lastly, there is more to being a tank, even under the trinity, than just having more hps. Where is the mitigation? If that is simply too much defense, then why not branch out into other things like Crowd Control, positioning, healing, or even some small boost to DPS?
Tower shield read this and digest it, there is nothing further to discuss.
IN CAPS:
HYBRIDIZATION WILL NOT MAKE THEM HIT HARDER, JUST ALLOW THEM TO SCALE OFF EGO.
I don't care how it is resolved:
Either give it to the technology melee, or take it away from martial arts ranged.
Just make it fair.
PS: technology ranged isn't very good at all... Compare shuriken to 2gm or snap shot...
You're essentially putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA LA I can't hear you!" right now.
You made a point, I'm questioning if it's a good idea and you're trying to shut down further discussion?
You don't get to decide if there is or isn't anything further to discuss.
To the bolded portion: subjective opinion isn't fact
You're essentially putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA LA I can't hear you!" right now.
You made a point, I'm questioning if it's a good idea and you're trying to shut down further discussion?
You don't get to decide if there is or isn't anything further to discuss.
To the bolded portion: subjective opinion isn't fact
Your premise is that allowing the melee tech to scale off ego, the ranged stat, would buff the absolute damage.
Is letting shuriken get buffed by the melee stat, str buffing its absolute damage?
You realize it's the greater of the two stats, not an addition?
You're essentially putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA LA I can't hear you!" right now.
You made a point, I'm questioning if it's a good idea and you're trying to shut down further discussion?
You don't get to decide if there is or isn't anything further to discuss.
To the bolded portion: subjective opinion isn't fact
Why does this run the risk of overpowering Laser Sword when the maximum damage it could do remains the same?
Technically, if you were running a high-Str build and really looking to maximize damage, you'd grab Enrage, double-dip on the Strength bonus and Enrage, and be stronger than someone who just takes Laser Sword. Even if this proposed change went through and a high-Ego character took Laser Sword, it'd still be weaker than what's available now with Strength/Enrage.
I don't know about Last's reasoning for the change, but my reasoning in supporting it is to make it easier for a high Ego character that's mostly packing ranged attacks to pick up a melee attack for flavor and have it not be a waste of time to use.
Why does this run the risk of overpowering Laser Sword when the maximum damage it could do remains the same?
Technically, if you were running a high-Str build and really looking to maximize damage, you'd grab Enrage, double-dip on the Strength bonus and Enrage, and be stronger than someone who just takes Laser Sword. Even if this proposed change went through and a high-Ego character took Laser Sword, it'd still be weaker than what's available now with Strength/Enrage.
I don't know about Last's reasoning for the change, but my reasoning in supporting it is to make it easier for a high Ego character that's mostly packing ranged attacks to pick up a melee attack for flavor and have it not be a waste of time to use.
That is exactly it.
I also question why shuriken gets that special feature?
What is so special about it.
Please compare are the dps of shuriken to the ranged attacks in technology please.
Then realize you can buff shuriken with focus.
I am not asking for the the melee technology to be buffed by both offensive roles.
This is completely independent of the melee and ranged role.
Read the patch notes: I want the technology melee to get the same either/or buff from ego or str just like shuriken, and shuriken storm. If a ranged attack in a melee frame work gets that hybrid buff from stats, then a melee power in a ranged framework should get the same.
It's a question of fairness. I will also accept the removal of this hybridization from the shuriken powers.
This is not about roles!
I get what you're saying, I really do. What some of us are saying is that yes, that's one way of handling it, but it would make more sense from a mechanics and player point of view to simplify the matter by removing the differentiation between ranged and melee since in practice all it does is frustrate situations like the ones you describe instead of adding another layer to the system like "Ranged powers need a ranged role except those that don't."
I loathe the whole business of ranged powers being tagged as melee. Just merge the offensive roles and tag powers correctly.
Because some players like the idea of being able to be versatile, and merging the roles allows that while still having them choose between focusing on melee or ranged primarily due to their stat allocation. Same effect, keeps the option for advanced hybridization open (i.e. all melee range combos can work like Shuriken in MA), while not letting certain builds become overpowered.
I actually agree with this too. I too enjoy having a single AoE power that can stand in for a Single Target attack. I take Roomsweeper over Haymaker every time for this reason.
One suggestion would be to make them work sort of like Demolish does, with a slight variation. Have each hit lower the targets resistance, but rather than to all future attacks have it lower resistance to future hits of the same attack, with a minimum of 50% charge.
That's just off the top of my head, and one flaw I already see is that it lowers it's appeal in a team situation.
If you merge the roles your giving melee a short stick, especially in pvp.
You throw a Shuriken correct? In real life wouldn't you need arm strength to throw it? Theres your logic. Also all of MA is melee with the exception of the shuriken powers.
If you merge the roles your giving melee a short stick, especially in pvp.
You throw a Shuriken correct? In real life wouldn't you need arm strength to throw it? Theres your logic. Also all of MA is melee with the exception of the shuriken powers.
Not really. Melee already has significant damage advantages, owing to the ease of enrage/focus stacking, and generally higher damage components on attacks. Also, their highest damage powers tend to require 1 or maybe 2 second charges at most, whereas ranged damage powers are 3-4 second charges. The other thing about the ranged powers is that they tend to lose damage from knocks if gearing for enrage, and unless things change, they still will. Secondly, why should melee sets get the benefit of high damage, focus, and melee scaling on their in-set range powers when range universally lose damage on their melee powers?
And don't give me the "melee can't close" argument. In the current environment, closing's relatively easy, since there's a very small window of opportunity for a ranged player to attack before he's vulnerable to getting lunge-stunned, or geysered then smacked with a DW or similar high-damage charge, and the melee player has ways of mitigating even that opportunity (Smoke Nade, Teleport, etc). This is in addition to the survivability boosts they're tending to give melee passives these days.
IMO, if Shurikens and Enrage/Focus continue to exist in their current forms, Range should get similar abilities where appropriate, such as the melee powers in ranged sets.
Open Palm Strike gets a pass, because it is A) shorter range than the shortest similar ranged power and requires an advantage point investment, and does it's highest damage in melee. It's actually the model of a good 'semi-ranged' power that I don't mind melee getting as an occasional help in AoE situations, because it also requires being in melee range with at least one enemy.
I'm not certain *every* set has the issue of the AoE completely marginalizing single target attacks, unless true boss spam and stragglers and master villains and any other situation where there is one enemy is what you'd consider marginalized.
I myself often make use of the single target attacks based on the situation...
Obviously Fire is the notable 'yeah right' in this whole shebang. Conflag, Conflag, Conflag. Firestrike is passed over like brussel sprouts at a thanksgiving table. Hence the dithering over to out-of-set Defile.
But yeah, small weak mob groups are just eviscerated left and right by the AoEs and no one is terribly interested in taking them on one at a time. Even with just two.
Perhaps Master Villains and other such sub-bosses can exist that have tons of resistance to AoE damage, requiring either chokingly copious amounts of AoE enough to make someone think twice about not showing some single target love, or letting the single-target specialist take care of them.
Basically throwing some 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' into the strategy...well. Rock, paper, at least.
I'm not certain *every* set has the issue of the AoE completely marginalizing single target attacks, unless true boss spam and stragglers and master villains and any other situation where there is one enemy is what you'd consider marginalized.
I myself often make use of the single target attacks based on the situation...
Obviously Fire is the notable 'yeah right' in this whole shebang. Conflag, Conflag, Conflag. Firestrike is passed over like brussel sprouts at a thanksgiving table. Hence the dithering over to out-of-set Defile.
But yeah, small weak mob groups are just eviscerated left and right by the AoEs and no one is terribly interested in taking them on one at a time. Even with just two.
Perhaps Master Villains and other such sub-bosses can exist that have tons of resistance to AoE damage, requiring either chokingly copious amounts of AoE enough to make someone think twice about not showing some single target love, or letting the single-target specialist take care of them.
Basically throwing some 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' into the strategy...well. Rock, paper, at least.
*flashbacks to Kartia*
Maybe you're on to something. Just like certain Viper enemies use attacks the cut dodge, or other viper mobs have attacks the cut through resistances, and yet other buff mob groups, so target prioritization matters, maybe some foes that are like pets, resistant to AoEs but normal vs Single target?
Comments
Do you not understand what Tanking is? Its not "Free Defensive Bonus for no downside". Your role is to be as attractive to all the bad things in the area as possible, hold the entire aggro while the damage dealers and healers are free to do their thing.
Its not supposed to be up to you to do the damage. If you're trying to do damage or are playing by yourself, you should be trying to build for Hybrid in the first place.
The Tank Role, is set up to Tank. Not Heal, Not Attack, you are supposed to absorb damage and be the distraction. You will still be adding to the damage, but you are not the primary offense.
Stop asking for changes that don't make sense.
I support it also!
Useful things for when taking the hits (i.e. drawn aggro):
Self-heal
Damage mitigation
HP can be useful, but its really small potatoes compared to the above. You need those, regardless of HP.
If you cannot take the hits, you cannot handle the aggro. Inherently bonuses designed to take the hits aren't out of order are they? Those two components above are already sought after as critical to tanks or they wouldn't want the powers that do all that.
Tanks didn't like some PRE in the old system just for Threat. It was synergistic extra in combo with the self-heal for things like Conviction.
Now, admittedly, damage isn't central for the tank, but what I'm asking here is really just a shift of where the threat comes from. Threat wouldn't change, and Tank would still have it's sizable bonus to Threat. But...
If you look at the numbers posted by Falchoin here: http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=2026644&postcount=130 ...you can see the threat reduction of the two damage roles is basically enough to allow Hybrid to eclipse them in threat before even factoring in CC and CS.
I just think our tanks will be loathe to come out of Hybrid for a bunch of excessive, perhaps wasted threat. Hybrid's healing bonus is like to factor into this, no? If the job can be done in Hybrid, why bother leaving it? Basically the only reasons would be to eclipse Hybrid DPSers and say, to tank without bothering with CC and CS.
The damage shift is just to make it feel less gimped. And I still refuse to believe even that Threat % is going to be 100% the same as damage threat %.
Overall it seems the roles have gotten inherent boosts, bonuses. What is the change to inherents (i.e. not predicated off of SSs) for Tank? .05 increase to hold resist?
Wooooow. Simmer down, people, that's extreme. :rolleyes:
Give Tank a better inherent bonus, if nothing else. What is so bad about this?
They don't make sense when one is locked on tunnel vision for this issue being threat alone, and especially when they're more focused on being condescending than even trying to understand.
I'm more interested in the bigger picture of the balance of the choice between the roles, and simply the feel of the strength of the Tank role in comparison to the rest.
Er.. Tanks need to be fun. If they're not, people won't play them. Mashing Defensive Combo, as a way to slaughter your foes, is not fun because the attack is rather bad in every way save for its ability to hold a monster's attention.. and holding a monster's attention doesn't put them down.
Right now, threat isn't anything that can be applied to PvP. Its not even a mechanic when soloing in PvE. It exists solely for teams. Nobody cares about it until you don't have enough of it. And if you don't have enough of it, you become sub-par DPS.
Tanks need to attack. They need various ways to attack. They need to feel powerful. They need to feel survivable. And right now, the Tank role is looking very niche as it is a 25% health buff and roughly half as much damage as any other role. And further compounding this is that a great deal of survivability as tanks comes from self-healing and Hybrid does a better job of it.
The threat of the Tank role needs to have another applicable effect, something other than just keeping the attention of PvE creatures. Debuff a target's damage, for example. That would increase Tank survivability and if it was equally applied to PvP, would give people reason to deal with a tank instead of ignoring the weakest DPS in the room.
These things can be taken care of by choosing your powers, i don't see why it should be included in a role
DPS perhaps, but did you try compare with Healing?
You know the guys with Seraphim or Medical Nanites thatgotr all the aggro just by appearing in a room.
This is something that need to be tested as well.
it's a genuine questions because with alerts coming in the way, and seeing that alert is teaming content we may want to be sure that teaming feel right.
Agree on all of this.
Agree on the first statement - they must be fun, yes (and they are for the people that like tanking, you shouldn't be a tank), but they shouldn't be an i win by default like you're suggesting. Tank doesn't have to do much damage, if you don't like it play other role, because being invulnerable and doing good damage isn't a good thing, that's poor balance.
tank=meant to soak dmg and draw aggro
dps(ranged/melee)=kill stuff, do dmg etc
healer/support=keep the group alive
that's the concept of it, it won't change. i don't care what anyone says about it, because that's their logic behind the role changes too (believe it or not).
back on topic.
tanks, as they are now(live) can't hold aggro with PRE SSed... that extra threat from secondaries and your primary won't be any different if you ask me.
another thing they could do, is change how passives work in different roles(i already mentioned this before):
offensive passives will gain from offensive roles
defensive passives will gain from defensive role
support passives will gain from support role
hybrid role will not gain bonuses but keep the normal bonuses
so defiance for example on a tank role will be 25% per stack instead of the normal 18% with 300 con etc(numbers are just an example) and so on for the other roles.
I don't support it.
I just want the same duality the devs gave the shuriken ranged powers in the martial arts melee tress for the melee powers in the ranged technology trees. The alternative is to remove that duality from shuriken powers.
Its just a question of fairness.
I like the ranged and melee roles seperation, but I want the same stat duality that shuriken was given for technology melee.
Here i'm really in the same boat with you.
People were always crying to give guardian more benefits, but on live at least guardian has more HPs than avenger.
If we now have a all damage role with guardian HPs then suddenly there is not really any reason to play guardian
with an offensive passive. Only the defense passive characters now have to take it if they don't want to get
the damage nerf that Protector now has.
So if Avenger and Brawler will be combined, then i would say get also rid of guardian and don't nerf Protector
so that we really have just our trinity.
That's kinda what I meant, but I guess I lost track.
It's still both - they perform both better and worse compared to what is currently on live. I say this because they are more specialized so it widens the gap between Hybrid and Avenger. Like I said, Avenger get's a better spike because of it, it's higher than on live, by a good amount so thats better. However the changes also potentially limit it's ability to recover energy and take damage so thats kind of worse. But that's just one particular build, not all will perform that way, some may be all better and some may be completely broken. It's an adjustment, but for the most part it's a lot of positive for the majority (AFAIK).
I can reverse your argument if you want to pull enough aggro as a tank from a support and DPS as an tank playing in hybrid role, you will have to put advantage point on CS and CC.
You will have more DPS in hybrid than someone on tank role,yes but any of the offensive will out-damage you and healing as well.
Not entirely clear here, but it seems you're saying that DPS roles can out damage Hybrids, and would therefore pull more threat. So in order to hold threat as a Hybrid, instead of a Tank, you'd need CC/CS.
Which is entirely a false statement.
Here's a post from the previous PTS Update thread that goes further into the point.
Thanks to Falchoin for the number crunching
Hybrid with defensive passive =
- same damage mitigation than tanks
- more damage than tanks
- better self healing
- better energy management wich means more sustained damage and self-healing
- enough threat generation to do the job unless there's an other hybrid in the team (but I'm not adding CC and CS bonuses that could fill the gap).
Now add CC and CS to your Hybrid and you'll have a real tank able to keep aggro on itself and survive. You'll perform better than Tanks in their own specialization. Meaning, if you want to play a tank and still have fun playing solo or worth something in a team -> make an Hybrid with a defensive passive and use CS/CC.
Seems like what these changes with regard to the roles are doing is getting them closer to what they were intended to be in the first place, an option for folks that want trinity game play. If that is the case, the changes are probably going to drive some away from soloing or PvPing in Protector or in Sentinel. I'm guessing we'll see more people soloing in an offensive role or hybrid if these changes hit live substantially as is. That is neither a good nor a bad thing, it's just a thing. There have been comments that the downside to running in Protector and Sentinel were outweighed by their benefits -- now that might be changing.
That said, let's not bring "making sense" into this. If "sense" were involved mobs would ignore the silly tank whose attacks tickle them, squash the healer, then feast on the dps. In games, there's not much that makes less sense than the trinity. Better to say that the tank role is designed to allow someone to play that role in a traditional MMO play style, not be yet another tool for people to maximize their toons.
I missed the numbers calculated by Falchoin as well.
That put things on perspective.
I think the main problem is that with hybrid you have enough threat management to do the job, rendering a real tank role not necessary.
Avenger with the snare if they used something in melee range means more opportunities for escape from melee range.
In fact there is some small differences that make them a bit unique.
Not I.
I am asking for something that is separate. I like the roles.
I don't know of another melee attack off the top of my head that can mitigate ~30% resistance fully stacked and can be spammed to the same degree that this move can.
Please compare are the dps of shuriken to the ranged attacks in technology please.
Then realize you can buff shuriken with focus.
I am not asking for the the melee technology to be buffed by both offensive roles.
This is completely independent of the melee and ranged role.
Read the patch notes: I want the technology melee to get the same either/or buff from ego or str just like shuriken, and shuriken storm. If a ranged attack in a melee frame work gets that hybrid buff from stats, then a melee power in a ranged framework should get the same.
It's a question of fairness. I will also accept the removal of this hybridization from the shuriken powers.
This is not about roles!
Aint talking about roles. I'm asking that if Laser Sword, as a specific example, gets the Shuriken buff treatment then won't that end up making it hit way too hard? As it is now it can still hit like a truck.
It's not a buff to absolutes. At max damage bonus, Laser Sword would hit as hard after this change as before.
You'd just be more flexible in making builds to use it.
Define "hit like a truck." Back it up with some numbers, please.
Maintains of Lightning Arc and TK Assault can, without too much effort, hit for 1-2k per tick, which is somewhere in the range of 8k damage per full maintain, iirc. They both can trigger an energy unlock that makes them infinitely spammable, as well. Both of those are 100' ranged powers, low tier, and TK Assault is even a mobile maintain.
How does Laser Sword compare? How does Laser Sword compare to Shuriken, which can reach similar damage numbers?
Also, IIRC Shuriken does not benefit from Focus, but that may have changed with one of the more recent patches.
Did you read the patch notes?
All I am asking is that laser sword, chainsaw and bullet beat down scale off of the higher of your str or ego stat, exactly like they scale off off str now.
Again in case you missed it: they scale off of strength right now... I am asking for hybridization.
Here is the patch note I am referring to:
Edit, It used to get the focus buff, I must have missed when it peas removed.
Thanks for the info
I could be on board for this. It seems fairly consistent of anyone looking hard and considering the reality of this role, that it needs something. I've done precious little PvP so can't comment there, but this sounds good for PvE as well.
A damage debuff built into the Tank's attacks isn't out of order considering CC and CS do something like this already.
Might as well make their 'taunt' more of a taunt. Question is, how big of a debuff? 10, 15, 20%?
Excellent summing up of my very same observations so far.
Any suggested solutions to Tank?
Should I welcome you aboard the Worry Train?
Since its unlikely they'll mash in threat-reduction to Hybrid or nerf it any, it remains still that the best scenario here is to give Tank something more to make it attractive and viable. It seems to beg for it to me. The Devs have numerous suggestions and many options for closing the gap here, I hope they do something with it.
In my opinion, one of the biggest problems Champions faces is the proliferation of powerful AoEs that can and often do eclipse single target attacks, and is a major factor why many claim the game is too easy.
If your AoE will just dissolve everything you face all on it's own, what are the single target attacks even needed for?
Don't get me wrong, I love the feeling of a powerful. High tier AoE that I've built for for some time finally being attained, and making my adventuring life so much easier, because I can use it to make a whole group or two go bye-bye, but even though I am not a fan in general of cooldowns, I think maybe in this case something needs to be done to prevent powers like these from becoming your one touch "I win" button.
Darkness' Ebon rift is great fun and mostly works because it has it's cooldown, so that users can't just rely on it in every moment. Many quite powerful AoEs and PBAoEs however, can be spammed indefinitely, particularly once a good energy unlock is also taken, and this really is ultimately a problem.
I don't have an easy answer, but for an ideal solution, Single target attacks should [at the same energy rates anyway] greatly eclipse AoEs, and I currently feel the best ones do, but the AoEs are so strong it doesn't matter. Most things you'd "need" to use your Single target attack on can be beaten almost as well with just the AoEs also.
Once a long time ago, before launch, I felt the games combat system was "awesome", but a little too fast. If anything, the game has only gotten faster since then, especially on a DPS or just plain well built character.
____________________________
I once argued "The game is great, but the fights are over so fast, and our defenses hardly matter if anything that might threaten us is defeated before it gets more than a shot or two off."
Now I'm going back over my old alpha and beta notes, and thinking the same thing basically. I'm not saying I want or need for any group of minions I roll up on to be a serious threat to typical heroes, but maybe all outgoing damage in general, especially AoE damage, can be toned down, let a fight play out longer then five to ten seconds, make them a little more meaningful in our choices.
Even a DPS "squishy' should be able to survive taking on such a group of minions, but also not instantly blow the group up at no danger to himself, while a Defense passive user might enjoy having the fight play out longer, actually seeing how effective his choice of defense is over the course of the fight.
Currently only Elite and lairs really offer this, and I suppose that's one way to do it, although Elite unfairly Nerfs player Charge up attacks vs Maintains, due to the large Dodge buff for foes.
I suppose I advocate making those "One shot wonder" big attacks, really a bit more rare and special. I think the fun of just tearing through everything in your path willy-nilly at no real risk does get a little hollow after a while, and Elite only partially satisfies this.
Again, all in my opinion.
Game is too easy. Bring back the things that made it tough. Including a huge boost to machines vs paranormal damage. And other differing damage type PvE balances.
Shuriken gets buffed by forms? thats news to me. its MA set, so it needs that duality, otherwise itd be useless for MA.
I'm only going to concern myself with the bolded portion. I don't really care about the Lightning Arc and TK assault argument, that's not what this is about anyway.
Just went to the test shard with a baseline level 40.
Using different passives as well as no passive I tested the damage of Shuriken Throw and Laser Sword
Innate Talent: The Hero
No gear
Primary SS: REC for less downtime between tests
Secondaries: EGO, STR so that these stats will be dead even and give exactly the same bonus
Resulting stats:
REC 93 (151 AoPM) +19% dmg strength (+26%)
EGO 53 (113 AoPM) [56 Quarry buff} +9.6% dmg strength, +15% ranged dmg (+18%, +24%) [+10%, +16%]
STR 53 (113 AoPM) +9.6% dmg strength, +15% melee dmg (+18%, +24%)
Testing on lvl 40 dummies.
Shuriken Throw R3(4 attacks):
Baseline(no passive) ~390-410 dmg per
Unstoppable R3 ~450-470 dmg per
Quarry R1 ~ 460-490 per after full Audacity
Kinetic Manip R3 ~490 - 530 per
WotW R3 ~470-480 per
AoPM ~480-510 per
All of these were done with and without Form of the Tempest, there was no difference.
Laser Sword R3(4 attacks)
Baseline(no passive) ~540-640 per (620-710 w/ FotT R3)
Unstoppable ~ 690-790per (770-870 FotT)
Elec Form R3 ~740-830 per (820-840 FotT)
Quarry R1~ 620-630 per after full audacity (720-760 FotT+ Audacty)
WotW R3 ~ 730-800 per (770-860 FotT)
AoPM R3~ 670-760 per (690-780 FotT)
So with the same amount of damage bonuses from stats applied to each move and utilizing a number of different passive both with and without using a MA form, Laser Sword consecutively hits harder than the shuriken. Obviously with gear and talents these numbers will be higher but a fully ranked Shuriken Throw doesn't come close to a fully ranked Laser Sword. Perhaps if Quarry were fully ranked there would be some difference but I can't see it being enough to help.
You asked for numbers and there they are.
Ultimately my main point is that while shuriken may be buffed by the higher of STR or EGO it pales in comparison to at least one of the melee moves in the Technology framework if given the same treatment. While MA toons will have a decent ranged attack the Technology toons will have a melee move(s?) that packs probably too much of a punch in comparison.
tl;dr
MA toons: high melee, decent ranged attack
Tech toons: high ranged, omg get it off me melee
Am I the only one that sees the disparity?
EDIT: Forgot to add Unstoppable on Laser Sword
You do realize this is exactly my argument for technology?
ehh, some powers i see your point, like bullet beatdown, but others shouldnt change, like gauntlet chainsaw. Laser Sword should work with ego and str too since its energy dmg and a melee attack.
Tower shield read this and digest it, there is nothing further to discuss.
IN CAPS:
HYBRIDIZATION WILL NOT MAKE THEM HIT HARDER, JUST ALLOW THEM TO SCALE OFF EGO.
I don't care how it is resolved:
Either give it to the technology melee, or take it away from martial arts ranged.
Just make it fair.
PS: technology ranged isn't very good at all... Compare shuriken to 2gm or snap shot...
shuriken is a 100ft melee attack. what it should be, is a ranged 50ft(at most) power.
as for the others
laser sword, is still a sword(melee weapon), and so is a chainsaw(not to mention gauntlet is worn on your hand, and that's melee range). bullet beatdown is the exception, it should gain from both str and ego.
I will accept that. It's patently unfair to apply the str bonus to something that is clearly a ranged attack.
Either the devs give it to tech melee, or they should remove it from shuriken.
It flies in the face of balance.
Yeah, the walking meatshield who hurls "yo-mamma" jokes around and does nothing other than tickle people while everyone else does the heavy lifting.
I hate them, so very much. Their very existence is abhorrent, anti-immersive, tactically unsound, it is from their impotence that the tyranny of the unholy trinity is spawned and perpetuated.
I will take this time, to remind everyone that math is relative, and you can, in fact, make all the roles have no downsides other than the opportunity cost of not using another role. But that is just semantics.
Now I will point out, the DPS roles are quite viable for solo play. The tank role, is not. If you are freeform, you should never be in the tank role unless you are in a group, hybrid is just better by every metric. And even then you can build a better group tank around the hybrid role. In contrast, AT's are just left to rot forever in tank role. This is an inequity that must be addressed and reworked.
Lastly, there is more to being a tank, even under the trinity, than just having more hps. Where is the mitigation? If that is simply too much defense, then why not branch out into other things like Crowd Control, positioning, healing, or even some small boost to DPS?
You're essentially putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA LA I can't hear you!" right now.
You made a point, I'm questioning if it's a good idea and you're trying to shut down further discussion?
You don't get to decide if there is or isn't anything further to discuss.
To the bolded portion: subjective opinion isn't fact
Your premise is that allowing the melee tech to scale off ego, the ranged stat, would buff the absolute damage.
Is letting shuriken get buffed by the melee stat, str buffing its absolute damage?
You realize it's the greater of the two stats, not an addition?
Why does this run the risk of overpowering Laser Sword when the maximum damage it could do remains the same?
Technically, if you were running a high-Str build and really looking to maximize damage, you'd grab Enrage, double-dip on the Strength bonus and Enrage, and be stronger than someone who just takes Laser Sword. Even if this proposed change went through and a high-Ego character took Laser Sword, it'd still be weaker than what's available now with Strength/Enrage.
I don't know about Last's reasoning for the change, but my reasoning in supporting it is to make it easier for a high Ego character that's mostly packing ranged attacks to pick up a melee attack for flavor and have it not be a waste of time to use.
That is exactly it.
I also question why shuriken gets that special feature?
What is so special about it.
I get what you're saying, I really do. What some of us are saying is that yes, that's one way of handling it, but it would make more sense from a mechanics and player point of view to simplify the matter by removing the differentiation between ranged and melee since in practice all it does is frustrate situations like the ones you describe instead of adding another layer to the system like "Ranged powers need a ranged role except those that don't."
This I can agree with. Maybe change the way ranged melee attacks work like make it slow or short root instead of letting it be a major damage power.
But I still feel
Because some players like the idea of being able to be versatile, and merging the roles allows that while still having them choose between focusing on melee or ranged primarily due to their stat allocation. Same effect, keeps the option for advanced hybridization open (i.e. all melee range combos can work like Shuriken in MA), while not letting certain builds become overpowered.
I actually agree with this too. I too enjoy having a single AoE power that can stand in for a Single Target attack. I take Roomsweeper over Haymaker every time for this reason.
One suggestion would be to make them work sort of like Demolish does, with a slight variation. Have each hit lower the targets resistance, but rather than to all future attacks have it lower resistance to future hits of the same attack, with a minimum of 50% charge.
That's just off the top of my head, and one flaw I already see is that it lowers it's appeal in a team situation.
You throw a Shuriken correct? In real life wouldn't you need arm strength to throw it? Theres your logic. Also all of MA is melee with the exception of the shuriken powers.
Any chance I can get a little more commentary? We all know the Tech melee attacks deserve the same benefit that the ranged MA powers do, let it die.
Not really. Melee already has significant damage advantages, owing to the ease of enrage/focus stacking, and generally higher damage components on attacks. Also, their highest damage powers tend to require 1 or maybe 2 second charges at most, whereas ranged damage powers are 3-4 second charges. The other thing about the ranged powers is that they tend to lose damage from knocks if gearing for enrage, and unless things change, they still will. Secondly, why should melee sets get the benefit of high damage, focus, and melee scaling on their in-set range powers when range universally lose damage on their melee powers?
And don't give me the "melee can't close" argument. In the current environment, closing's relatively easy, since there's a very small window of opportunity for a ranged player to attack before he's vulnerable to getting lunge-stunned, or geysered then smacked with a DW or similar high-damage charge, and the melee player has ways of mitigating even that opportunity (Smoke Nade, Teleport, etc). This is in addition to the survivability boosts they're tending to give melee passives these days.
IMO, if Shurikens and Enrage/Focus continue to exist in their current forms, Range should get similar abilities where appropriate, such as the melee powers in ranged sets.
Open Palm Strike gets a pass, because it is A) shorter range than the shortest similar ranged power and
I dont think Martial arts should get hybrid range.
I don't think we should merge roles..
If you want hybrid.. then pick Hybrid. Otherwise choose the Offensive Role that fits your character.
Homogenous gaming (everything has the same value) is what got us into this mess. Keep separates separate and force people to make balance decisions.
I'm not certain *every* set has the issue of the AoE completely marginalizing single target attacks, unless true boss spam and stragglers and master villains and any other situation where there is one enemy is what you'd consider marginalized.
I myself often make use of the single target attacks based on the situation...
Obviously Fire is the notable 'yeah right' in this whole shebang. Conflag, Conflag, Conflag. Firestrike is passed over like brussel sprouts at a thanksgiving table. Hence the dithering over to out-of-set Defile.
But yeah, small weak mob groups are just eviscerated left and right by the AoEs and no one is terribly interested in taking them on one at a time. Even with just two.
Perhaps Master Villains and other such sub-bosses can exist that have tons of resistance to AoE damage, requiring either chokingly copious amounts of AoE enough to make someone think twice about not showing some single target love, or letting the single-target specialist take care of them.
Basically throwing some 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' into the strategy...well. Rock, paper, at least.
*flashbacks to Kartia*
Maybe you're on to something. Just like certain Viper enemies use attacks the cut dodge, or other viper mobs have attacks the cut through resistances, and yet other buff mob groups, so target prioritization matters, maybe some foes that are like pets, resistant to AoEs but normal vs Single target?
And at least no one would feel the nerf hammer.