And this is a point i don't like in theses changes.
The second point. this is with hybrid/guardian:
I don't see why they have +30% damage as avengers or brawlers.
I don't see why they have more bonus with the secondaries stats. With a high level stuff, they can be very close of dps role.
I don't see why they have this big heal bonus at the same time. Half bonus of the support role. When support is the ONLY role who have now a malus at %hp, and have too a big damage malus, they must be a lot more efficient at healing than any classes, a lot more.
I see the hybrid as a 1/2 healer with a LOT more of dps and HP at the same time.
Hybrids seems to be the most OP role for pvp actually and i don't like that.
Just so you know, it has been noted that Hybrid can do more DPS than the DPS roles, and at both Ranged and Melee.
I have to say I'm quite nervous about the balance with Hybrid here. Is overstatting secondary SSs going to continue giving the 3/4 bonus as such that Hybrid will outdistance Damage roles at some point?
And for tanking...total threat comparison between Hybrid and Tank at optimal SSs is 90 (+15, +15 dam; +30, +30 threat) and Hybrid is 75. Why do I suspect that with the way damage multiplies, Hybrid will end up generating more threat? And with overstatting secondary SSs (assuming viable with the 3/4 bit) it might be all the more potent. Not to mention Tanks love their self-heal and Hybrid will get some of that as compensation.
Perhaps Tank needs a base addition to Threat like Damage has to damage, inset into the role.
In any case I feel the inset bonus in Tank needs more. The hp bonus...who cares? A hollowed out cherry, that (maybe give that to Hybrid :P). It (Tank) needs a base SOMETHING nice. Damage mitigation perhaps...but if I had my way it'd have even more threat as an inset ability outside of the SS bonuses.
Also...the names are horrid. Removing flavor isn't worth inching an iota more down to the lowest common denominator of comprehension. Shall we also call powers like this? Ebon Rift can be 'AoE Vortex of Ranged Dimensional Damage'. Sigils of Primal Storm can be 'Stationary DOT Pets of Ranged Electrical Damage'.
I can understand (I guess) some of them needing changing. Brawler should stay (Er...Striker?). Avenger can just be Blaster. Protector can be Brick. Sentinel can be Healer (not sure if anything else can fit, ya know?). Hybrid I suppose is a logical term...though vague...
Cut. Dry. Simple. Comic-ish. And far better than banal stat sounds. They may not 100% match with every concept, but most will. And I sooooooooo do not want to be calling a DPSer 'Ranged Damage'. Just think about that. Listen to someone referring to their character like that. It's utterly absurd!
If you MUST keep this general naming convention...at least change the 'damage' bit on the two DPSers. I'd much rather have something I can apply a and an to, ya know? 'Ranged Damager' is just as absurd. Support sounds almost as lame but vaguely tolerable if I must. In any case they do NOT mesh with 'Tank' and 'Hybrid'.
I have a toon with con/rec, i rely on both to live, and sadly i'm not so good with this CO math, but.. if one is split.. i'd wanna keep my con as primary SS.. then i lose out my energy rates which is what keeps me going as a DPS.. i don't know how this would halp
I have a toon with con/rec, i rely on both to live, and sadly i'm not so good with this CO math, but.. if one is split.. i'd wanna keep my con as primary SS.. then i lose out my energy rates which is what keeps me going as a DPS.. i don't know how this would halp
REC isn't the only energy stat, as of now on LIVE it's not even the best, you could split it with INT to get even better energy management me thinks.
Tank is 'quickly' becoming a heavily group oriented role. Support, from the sound of things here, may be on a similar path.
But that's all even a side point.
Hybrid is the 'Balanced' role, meaning it has less defense then a Tank, but more then a DPS; less damage then a DPS, but more then a Tank; less healing then a Support, but potentially more then a Tank or DPS.
It is the middle of the road Role. Jack of all trades, master of none. No glaring specialization, no glaring weakness.
The only thing that Hybrid has access to that other roles don't is the choice of any Passive, but the inability to push the specialization of said Passive. To make Hybrid intentionally weaker then the other roles... well, you might as well just pull it out of the game entirely.
Now... allow any passive to be run in any role, and 'then' we'll talk.
Hybrid has no less defense than Tank (less HP but a better healing/self healing hability and defensive passives work the same for them). The damage difference with DPS has been reduced, the healing difference with healers has been reduced. The big winner of that update is clearly the Hybrid.
Raising Tanks threat generation was necessary (though this is not so much of an improvement given you could achieve a roughly similar threat generation with a PRE SS). Lowering their damage output was necessary to make them a real group oriented role, but if you lower their damage output you need: 1/ make sure their threat generation is high enough 2/ raise their defense (1,2 -> 1,25 controls resistance, sorry but I call it a joke) in balance. Hybrids are as resilient as tanks. A slight natural damage mitigation for tanks could do the trick.
So nerfing hybrids isn't automaticaly the best solution, we could make the difference between specialised roles and Hybrid a bit more significant, especially with Tank and Support. Threat generation and survivability between tanks and hybrids are too close, healing hability between hybrids and supports is too close.
Except for the fact that the Hybrid role is now the go-to role for anyone that isn't a group pretty much.
To gimp the Hybrid role would be akin to telling everyone running a Defensive passive to suck it up, find a team, or switch passives. Tank is 'quickly' becoming a heavily group oriented role. Support, from the sound of things here, may be on a similar path.
But that's all even a side point.
Hybrid is the 'Balanced' role, meaning it has less defense then a Tank, but more then a DPS; less damage then a DPS, but more then a Tank; less healing then a Support, but potentially more then a Tank or DPS.
It is the middle of the road Role. Jack of all trades, master of none. No glaring specialization, no glaring weakness.
The only thing that Hybrid has access to that other roles don't is the choice of any Passive, but the inability to push the specialization of said Passive. To make Hybrid intentionally weaker then the other roles... well, you might as well just pull it out of the game entirely.
Now... allow any passive to be run in any role, and 'then' we'll talk.
Run with invul in hybrid.. take attack buffs.. you instantly have a toon that cn ignore henchmen and attack as well as an unmaxed offensive toon. WHY then should they receive an additional buff?
If you're looking to find something that makes superstats worthwhile for Gaurdian Role, I say look at the things hybrids actually DO. AKA the things the other 3 roles DON'T do.. aka Soak, Hurt, Heal.. There's much more to the game than soak, hurt, or heal.
I think Hybrid's superstars should add to things that aren't direct from the character but from others. Pet Damage, Buff/Debuff strength, Confused enemy damage
Tank - +25% soak, +0% damage (depending on testing maybe even innate debuff)
Melee - +30% Melee dmg, +15% Ranged dmg
Blast - +25% Ranged dmg, +15% Melee dmg
Support - +30% Heals, +30% Holds, +0% Damage
Hybrid - +10% Damage, +20% Pet/confusd dmg, +25% Buff/Debuff strength (all things that don't affect your own avatar's stats)
I don't think that curve is too excitingly different than what people are doing now. Most Sorcery users will likely still use Hybrid because Support really doesn't offer anything GOOD for sorcery's passives
I like Blaster/Striker.
I like Hybrid as a name.
I also like Support as a name (better than tactician anyway)
I DISLIKE tank nor brick nor protector as a name..
The following numbers are taken from a PTS character who has the following stats: 10 STR, 331 DEX, 15 CON, 139 INT, 77 EGO, 228 PRE, 17 REC and 15 END. Additionally, it is using the Quarry passive at rank 3 which provides 101% phys damage, 50% non-phys damage and 18% dodge.
Frankly I don't see where people are getting the idea that Hybrid role allows for higher damage than either Ranged or Melee damage roles. Just looking at the tooltips and a bit of testing shows the Melee damage role will outclass a Hybrid role character using the same melee attacks. The same is true for Ranged damage role and Hybrid using ranged attacks.
Super stat bonuses and the like are all additive with other damage bonuses. Role modifiers are multiplicative, which is why the Melee damage role provides the best melee damage and the Ranged damage role provides the best ranged damage.
The following numbers are taken from a PTS character who has the following stats: 10 STR, 331 DEX, 15 CON, 139 INT, 77 EGO, 228 PRE, 17 REC and 15 END. Additionally, it is using the Quarry passive at rank 3 which provides 101% phys damage, 50% non-phys damage and 18% dodge.
Frankly I don't see where people are getting the idea that Hybrid role allows for higher damage than either Ranged or Melee damage roles. Just looking at the tooltips and a bit of testing shows the Melee damage role will outclass a Hybrid role character using the same melee attacks. The same is true for Ranged damage role and Hybrid using ranged attacks.
Super stat bonuses and the like are all additive with other damage bonuses. Role modifiers are multiplicative, which is why the Melee damage role provides the best melee damage and the Ranged damage role provides the best ranged damage.
This does a good job of summing it up.
Hybrid can produce good numbers when backed up by fantastic stats but it won't produce the same sort of higher end numbers you will get with melee attacks+melee role and ranged+ranged role.
Hybrid can produce good numbers when backed up by fantastic stats but it won't produce the same sort of higher end numbers you will get with melee attacks+melee role and ranged+ranged role.
On the same regard though, it shows that Hybrid has atleast been improved to stay on par with other Roles when using builds that don't concentrate on one or the other.
The following numbers are taken from a PTS character who has the following stats: 10 STR, 331 DEX, 15 CON, 139 INT, 77 EGO, 228 PRE, 17 REC and 15 END. Additionally, it is using the Quarry passive at rank 3 which provides 101% phys damage, 50% non-phys damage and 18% dodge.
Frankly I don't see where people are getting the idea that Hybrid role allows for higher damage than either Ranged or Melee damage roles. Just looking at the tooltips and a bit of testing shows the Melee damage role will outclass a Hybrid role character using the same melee attacks. The same is true for Ranged damage role and Hybrid using ranged attacks.
Super stat bonuses and the like are all additive with other damage bonuses. Role modifiers are multiplicative, which is why the Melee damage role provides the best melee damage and the Ranged damage role provides the best ranged damage.
On the same regard though, it shows that Hybrid has atleast been improved to stay on par with other Roles when using builds that don't concentrate on one or the other.
It makes sense to me that when using a hybrid build, they hybrid role fits best.
Ah, yes, forgot about the multiplicative bit on the DPS roles. That probably will trump most Hybrid builds (though AoPM Hybrids will prob. somehow still compare or exceed).
Raising Tanks threat generation was necessary (though this is not so much of an improvement given you could achieve a roughly similar threat generation with a PRE SS).
Good point, actually. 30% + 30% + what, 25% (?) from PRE SS and Protector is very equivalent to current Tank total threat bonus...AND Protector got more of this to actual damage!
Yeah...Devs...this is looking lamer and lamer for Tank. The only current benefit is not needing PRE. Big whup. Seriously, give them a boost inherent in the role. Multiplicative Threat bonus anyone?
SOMETHING.
PRE SS was nice before with the added threat bonus and the self-heal, for tanks...a tank was wise to take PRE before, but a DPSer didn't at all need PRE for the threat reduction when they could take a damage stat or two and accomplish that and more.
How are optimal tanks getting the promised 'boost' (to 'everyone') here at all with the changes?
Lowering their damage output was necessary to make them a real group oriented role, but if you lower their damage output you need: 1/ make sure their threat generation is high enough 2/ raise their defense (1,2 -> 1,25 controls resistance, sorry but I call it a joke) in balance. Hybrids are as resilient as tanks.
I can dig it overall, obviously (:)), though Tactician is a bit off. It's like I said though...difficult to find a descriptor that fits all of what Support entails.
Still prefer Healer there.
But I can see Hero for Hybrid, or some simile thereof, as it is basically a catch-all solo and essentially default role.
The following numbers are taken from a PTS character who has the following stats: 10 STR, 331 DEX, 15 CON, 139 INT, 77 EGO, 228 PRE, 17 REC and 15 END. Additionally, it is using the Quarry passive at rank 3 which provides 101% phys damage, 50% non-phys damage and 18% dodge.
Frankly I don't see where people are getting the idea that Hybrid role allows for higher damage than either Ranged or Melee damage roles. Just looking at the tooltips and a bit of testing shows the Melee damage role will outclass a Hybrid role character using the same melee attacks. The same is true for Ranged damage role and Hybrid using ranged attacks.
Super stat bonuses and the like are all additive with other damage bonuses. Role modifiers are multiplicative, which is why the Melee damage role provides the best melee damage and the Ranged damage role provides the best ranged damage.
Doesn't count, if you want to compare melee damage you must use DEX/STR to provide significant numbers. Hybrids catch up with Melee DPS if you raise your stats high enough, the higher your stats are the narrower is the distance between Hybrids and DPS. 10 STR / 331 DEX is way too low to be significant.
Doesn't count, if you want to compare melee damage you must use DEX/STR to provide significant numbers. Hybrids catch up with Melee DPS if you raise your stats high enough, the higher your stats are the narrower is the distance between Hybrids and DPS. 10 STR / 331 DEX is way too low to be significant.
I'm curious to see how this works and the numbers to back up your claim. Impress me.
I can dig it overall, obviously (:)), though Tactician is a bit off. It's like I said though...difficult to find a descriptor that fits all of what Support entails.
Still prefer Healer there.
But I can see Hero for Hybrid, or some simile thereof, as it is basically a catch-all solo and essentially default role.
I went with not-Healer because I'm specifically trying to get people to think of Support role as more than just healing. So that when someone tries to use it to its full potential (ie: they aren't just a green-number-spambot) they aren't ostracized.
My brief experience with CoX made me wary of ever encouraging people to equate "support" with "healer".
"Tactician" at least makes new players think they'll need to use their brain a bit to play the role. Of course, having game mechanics here that actually support using holds and crowd control would help.
Doesn't count, if you want to compare melee damage you must use DEX/STR to provide significant numbers. Hybrids catch up with Melee DPS if you raise your stats high enough, the higher your stats are the narrower is the distance between Hybrids and DPS. 10 STR / 331 DEX is way too low to be significant.
Could you post the stats of the build you used to refute falchoin's analysis?
I would really like to com are your numbers and try some reproductions using them.
Alright further testing with a STR + DEX/INT build with the help of @Radia who has better STR/DEX gear than me. 278 STR, 321 DEX, 284 INT using WotW + 8 stacks of Focus.
Hybrid Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 3745
Melee Damage Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 4623
And just because the question was brought up earlier...
Again, the melee damage role is the clear winner for melee damage. In fact, the % difference is even higher due to the extra super stats from Hybrid making less of an overall impact to the additive bonus damage. Therefore, the more +dmg you stack the better the melee damage role is over hybrid for melee attacks.
Alright further testing with a STR + DEX/INT build with the help of @Radia who has better STR/DEX gear than me. 278 STR, 321 DEX, 284 INT using WotW + 8 stacks of Focus.
Hybrid Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 3745
Melee Damage Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 4623
And just because the question was brought up earlier...
Again, the melee damage role is the clear winner for melee damage. In fact, the % difference is even higher due to the extra super stats from Hybrid making less of an overall impact to the additive bonus damage. Therefore, the more +dmg you stack the better the melee damage role is over hybrid for melee attacks.
Do you happen to have access to determine the Tank numbers, perchance? Because I'm looking at this and seeing that the Melee Damage Role will be churning out more threat (roughly 200 points more given the page 1 example) than the Hybrid role even with the bonus threat from the superstats.. which, I am assuming, is not supposed to happen.
Unless, of course, I'm missing some key piece of information regarding melee/ranged role threat that was omitted from the patch notes.
The Protector role provided no damage bonus prior so I imagine all tanks will be receiving roughly half the bonus damage they used to receive from superstats before.. more threat per superstat may be required to be baked into the role.
Unless, of course, its also intended to herd tanks towards the attacks that do virtually no damage but have a massive threat bonus as core tanking abilities.
I also think the new role names are _extremely_ uninspired. If there is still a chance for change, I'd like to put forward 'Meatshield' for the tank role's name.. or you can go back to the old one. d('-' )
See, the problem is with specific instead of general names, your role defines your character.
I prefer to have more generalized names to keep it simple.
If i want to go on defensive, i can without being called a "tank".
If i want to go on offensive, i can without being called a "brawler".
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are -10%, -18% and -10% with a multiplicative role modifier of -10% for a total of -41.8% threat. 4623 * (1 - 0.418) = 2691 so a mob "sees" 2691 damage from the actual 4623 damage.
Tank Role (LR + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 3061
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are 20%, 37% and 21% with a multiplicative role modifier of 10% for a total of +85% threat. 3061 * 1.85 = 5663 so a mob "sees" 5663 damage from the actual 3061 damage.
Conclusions:
Despite the damage role providing the highest damage, it yields the lowest threat. Tank role appears to be useless as the bonus threat does not look to be needed since even a Hybrid role with a defensive passive deals enough damage to keep aggro off a damage role character (all other things equal) even without using any threat gaining advantages.
This also means that offensive melee/ranged hybrids which are forced to use the Hybrid role will have the hardest time controlling their aggro while dealing sub par damage compared to their damage role counterparts. This truly is the final nail in the coffin of ranged/melee hybrids.
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are -10%, -18% and -10% with a multiplicative role modifier of -10% for a total of -41.8% threat. 4623 * (1 - 0.418) = 2691 so a mob "sees" 2691 damage from the actual 4623 damage.
Tank Role (LR + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 3061
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are 20%, 37% and 21% with a multiplicative role modifier of 10% for a total of +85% threat. 3061 * 1.85 = 5663 so a mob "sees" 5663 damage from the actual 3061 damage.
Conclusions:
Despite the damage role providing the highest damage, it yields the lowest threat. Tank role appears to be useless as the bonus threat does not look to be needed since even a Hybrid role with a defensive passive deals enough damage to keep aggro off a damage role character (all other things equal) even without using any threat gaining advantages.
I point out that the role issue was not about the base damage numbers (what you posted makes these seem to make sense). The issue here is the way these base numbers are buffed. If there were a vaster gap between hybrid and tank more players would need an informed decision choosing their passive. Using LR in Hybrid should yeild some results, but should also give up survivability compared to Tank..
I'm not going to keep beating the same horse, but I dare say that "Hybrid" need not be a role .. but should be achievable through smart power choice (play a "tank" and take offense buffs.. you're a hybrid, ta-daa)
This also means that offensive melee/ranged hybrids which are forced to use the Hybrid role will have the hardest time controlling their aggro while dealing sub par damage compared to their damage role counterparts. This truly is the final nail in the coffin of ranged/melee hybrids.
Again:
AME you have finally killed Offensive Melee and Ranged Hybrid builds after Akinos put them on lifesupport.
Please consider my plea that you apply the same hybridization that you gave the Shuriken powers in the martial arts trees to the melee powers in the Technology trees.
Martial Arts: Shuriken Throw: The damage bonus this power gets now scales with either your Melee Damage bonus (from Strength) or your Ranged Damage bonus (from Ego), whichever is higher.
Martial Arts: Shuriken Storm: The damage bonus this power gets now scales with either your Melee Damage bonus (from Strength) or your Ranged Damage bonus (from Ego), whichever is higher.
Why is it fair to offer melee/ranged hybridization to a ranged power in a melee set, while not offering Ranged/Melee hybridizaiton to the melee powers in the ranged technology sets?
The powers I speak of are:
Muntions--Bullet Beatdown (Ballet)
Gagettering--Chainsaw Guantlet.
Power Armor--Laser Sword.
These powers are the heavy hitters from their respective trees. On live these powers can be used to prop up the weak performing technology tree builds.
Just like you want to offer incentive to Martial Arts players to use Shuriken powers, offer that same incentive to the Technology trees to use their melee attacks.
...Please consider my plea that you apply the same hybridization that you gave the Shuriken powers in the martial arts trees to the melee powers in the Technology trees...
OR, we could just do away with the seperation of church and state (ranged/melee) and just have a simple "offensive" role?
OR, we could just do away with the seperation of church and state (ranged/melee) and just have a simple "offensive" role?
This one's been on my mind for a long time. Especially now that the Ranged and Melee roles are near-identical. Might as well just mush them together. Like they used to be.
OR, we could just do away with the seperation of church and state (ranged/melee) and just have a simple "offensive" role?
This this is the third change they have made, and we have been asking for this for quite some time, so at this point It isn't happening.
The best I can hope fo is that these melee powers in ranged sets, much like the ranged powers in martial arts be given the same Range/melee buff treatment.
Melee needs the snare.. that's why brawler was made in the first place so that melee didn't play the chase game only to never get hit.
Solutions arn't short sighted. Numbers and gameplay are very different beasts. Numbers say "merge them" but gameplay says... Range>Melee in said merging
II'm not going to keep beating the same horse, but I dare say that "Hybrid" need not be a role .. but should be achievable through smart power choice (play a "tank" and take offense buffs.. you're a hybrid, ta-daa)
This is a bad idea.
First its a step back, we lose a role. Second the tank role is useless for those wishing to be sturdy AND do damage. Unless you plan on allowing us to use defensive passives in a offensive role.......which is a whole can of worms aside from this.
Hybrid is fine as it is, its an improvement from guardian even if its name isn't. Tank however needs its damage returned and an increase to something to make it attractive again for those wishing a brick style hero.
I point out that the role issue was not about the base damage numbers (what you posted makes these seem to make sense). The issue here is the way these base numbers are buffed. If there were a vaster gap between hybrid and tank more players would need an informed decision choosing their passive. Using LR in Hybrid should yeild some results, but should also give up survivability compared to Tank..
I'm not going to keep beating the same horse, but I dare say that "Hybrid" need not be a role .. but should be achievable through smart power choice (play a "tank" and take offense buffs.. you're a hybrid, ta-daa)
So you want to get rid of Hybrid altogether, yet you're also pushing for a removal of any dmg buff from the Tank role.
So what is a character who's offensive in nature supposed to do if they want to take a Defensive passive... which yes, is a perfectly viable build choice. And no, taking an Active Offense buff is not an answer, nor is a Toggle, Enrage, or Crit stacking, as anyone can take these and the relative damage amount already includes them on both ends.
From the numbers Falchoin has been posting, it seems like we're in a pretty good position right now for Hybrid, it's just Tank that needs to be looked at. It 'might' be worthwhile in a group, but it's nearly useless elsewhere.
Edit: Regarding the first part... it's also very hard to give up survivability compared to a Tank when the Tank doesn't 'get' any extra survivability, except for more HP, which the Hybrid does not get. Add extra survivability to the Tank role and *BAM*, Hybrid is less survivable.
pretty much, they should look into making the added threat bonus count as dmg(a flat amount for the % given would be nice). we all know how well threat works for tanks in this game...
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are 20%, 37% and 21% with a multiplicative role modifier of 10% for a total of +85% threat. 3061 * 1.85 = 5663 so a mob "sees" 5663 damage from the actual 3061 damage.
Tank role appears to be useless as the bonus threat does not look to be needed since even a Hybrid role with a defensive passive deals enough damage to keep aggro off a damage role character (all other things equal) even without using any threat gaining advantages.
Who knows...a tank might want to keep it off of a Hybrid too. *shrug* Guess that's what the threat advantages are for.
If nothing else, assuming these numbers pan out in play, Tank should have it's damage +30 and its threat +15 instead of the way it is now (which shouldn't affect threat much just give them their damage back, and make it quite akin to a Protector with PRE in the prior system), and a built in damage mitigation in role or some other cuter bonus than the HP (or in addition), so overall, it doesn't get boxed up and put in the attic for the rest of eternity (eternity in an MMO meaning several months of complaining until it's changed ;p).
pretty much, they should look into making the added threat bonus count as dmg(a flat amount for the % given would be nice). we all know how well threat works for tanks in this game...
Meaning threat is broken and needs to be fixed in general?
So you want to get rid of Hybrid altogether, yet you're also pushing for a removal of any dmg buff from the Tank role.
So what is a character who's offensive in nature supposed to do if they want to take a Defensive passive... which yes, is a perfectly viable build choice. And no, taking an Active Offense buff is not an answer, nor is a Toggle, Enrage, or Crit stacking, as anyone can take these and the relative damage amount already includes them on both ends.
From the numbers Falchoin has been posting, it seems like we're in a pretty good position right now for Hybrid, it's just Tank that needs to be looked at. It 'might' be worthwhile in a group, but it's nearly useless elsewhere.
Edit: Regarding the first part... it's also very hard to give up survivability compared to a Tank when the Tank doesn't 'get' any extra survivability, except for more HP, which the Hybrid does not get. Add extra survivability to the Tank role and *BAM*, Hybrid is less survivable.
You can't take away that which doesn't exist.
If there were only Support, Soak or Damage they could open up passives to be used in any role. Sorry I thought I stated that.
If the roles stay restricted I support having hybrid role.. just making it LESS effective than it is now because of it's inherent advantage of Min/Maxing.
Seraphim works nice (Now the healing level is sure divine with seraph ), got over 20k heals with conviction, even the small ticks seraphim used to provide aren't so small anymore, like a few regen passives , anyway most of the changes look awesome so far, just wanted to point this one if anyone still hasn't (didn't have time to go through the whole topic srry).
Bugs : It is possible to have one same Primary and Secondary Superstat, granting a 120 to a specific stat and increasing that way, by a huge ammount, the benefical effects from both Primary and Secundary SS side effects.
Orbital Canon : Hammer of Dawn advantage doesn't generate damage anymore.
Seraphim : The healing bonus granted by that skill is increasing each time you get healed by the passive aura of this passive.
General Support passives : Support passive, seems to be much more powerfull when in Support role for instance, aura of Ebon Destruction grants 70% +- damage bonus in Hybrid role while in Support role it will grant over 110% +- damage bonus.
General concerns : A build with a lot of presence is capable with Support role and +15% CC power items to use Holds that last more than 8sec. Remember Holds cannot be broken without any form of damage beside Breakfree skills like Ice Sheath or Resurgence + advantage. Wich could create very great disbalances and frustrations in the PVP aspect of the game.
I guess it's true that the only time you'd ever want to drop into Tank role would be if you had to keep aggro off the poor schmuck who made an offensive hybrid ranged/melee character. Giving the Tank role the same super stat damage bonuses as the Hybrid role might be one way to "fix" the role. In essence, Tank would be trading the bonus healing of Hybrid for a max hp buff. I think such a change would make the Tank role more useful without making it the no-brainer choice that Protector is for defensive passive users on live.
In my opinion the damage roles are fine as they are, though I wouldn't mind in the least if Cryptic just made it a damage role in general that boosted both ranged and melee. Merging the Ranged and Melee damage roles would also solve the problem of offensive ranged/melee hybrid build aggro. Hybrid would still have a place as it gets healing bonuses for a bit of extra survivability. As odd as it seems, fewer options in this case allows for greater diversity.
After much tinkering with the Support role I've come to the conclusion that it's not quite as useless as I had thought previously. That said, I think either the -10% multiplicative damage modifier or the lower damage from super stats needs to change. I compared damage and healing of PTS Support vs Live Sentinel previously in this thread and my live character in Sentinel was better on both accounts. The healing difference was due to the Presence change but the loss of damage was due solely to the differences in role. I'm also curious as to how much the +crowd control strength is weighted in the Support role. Currently crowd controls in PvE are mostly useless as any mob that can be affected by them dies in short order.
The Hybrid role should stay as it is in my opinion. It provides a good balance of offense, support and can even theoretically hold threat vs damage role characters. The damage isn't as good as the offensive roles. The healing isn't as good as the Support role. The threat generation isn't as good as the Tank role. The Hybrid role is the jack of all trades and master of none, as it should be.
In my opinion the damage roles are fine as they are, though I wouldn't mind in the least if Cryptic just made it a damage role in general that boosted both ranged and melee.
But isn't that Hybrid now ? It buffs both just not that much as the specialized ranged or melee role.
Since avenger now has lost the penalities guardian has to be seen more as a third damage role when played
with an offense passive i think.
If Brawler and Avenger are merged then we could also get rid of guardian, since its only purpose is then
maybe for defense passive users to make more damage, but for offense passives there is no need anymore
to use it since they don't have the negative effects anymore.
But isn't that Hybrid now ? It buffs both just not that much as the specialized ranged or melee role.
Since avenger now has lost the penalities guardian has to be seen more as a third damage role when played
with an offense passive i think.
If Brawler and Avenger are merged then we could also get rid of guardian, since its only purpose is then
maybe for defense passive users to make more damage, but for offense passives there is no need anymore
to use it since they don't have the negative effects anymore.
Not quite. Hybrid for offensive passive users could be seen as a soloing type role or for those who want to run some type of offensive/support hybrid due to the healing super stat bonuses of the Hybrid role.
Seems like Ego has been turned into a ranged stat. I main a character with ego blade and I know there were changes made so that it scales as strength does (max. adv. at 70)
So in other words, if I leave it at 70, I'll get the most beneficial bonus to my ego attack?
Not quite. Hybrid for offensive passive users could be seen as a soloing type role or for those who want to run some type of offensive/support hybrid due to the healing super stat bonuses of the Hybrid role.
Good point, hybrid is more of a bridge between support and damage than just between ranged and melee damage.
Both ranged and melee should be merged into one, offensive role.
Support role is better now after the changes since support passives are more effective, it could stay that way, since the presence stat no longer boosts healing that hard, same for bubbles, the overall heal isn't higher than it used to be for the healer builds.
Comments
Just so you know, it has been noted that Hybrid can do more DPS than the DPS roles, and at both Ranged and Melee.
And for tanking...total threat comparison between Hybrid and Tank at optimal SSs is 90 (+15, +15 dam; +30, +30 threat) and Hybrid is 75. Why do I suspect that with the way damage multiplies, Hybrid will end up generating more threat? And with overstatting secondary SSs (assuming viable with the 3/4 bit) it might be all the more potent. Not to mention Tanks love their self-heal and Hybrid will get some of that as compensation.
Perhaps Tank needs a base addition to Threat like Damage has to damage, inset into the role.
In any case I feel the inset bonus in Tank needs more. The hp bonus...who cares? A hollowed out cherry, that (maybe give that to Hybrid :P). It (Tank) needs a base SOMETHING nice. Damage mitigation perhaps...but if I had my way it'd have even more threat as an inset ability outside of the SS bonuses.
Also...the names are horrid. Removing flavor isn't worth inching an iota more down to the lowest common denominator of comprehension. Shall we also call powers like this? Ebon Rift can be 'AoE Vortex of Ranged Dimensional Damage'. Sigils of Primal Storm can be 'Stationary DOT Pets of Ranged Electrical Damage'.
I can understand (I guess) some of them needing changing. Brawler should stay (Er...Striker?). Avenger can just be Blaster. Protector can be Brick. Sentinel can be Healer (not sure if anything else can fit, ya know?). Hybrid I suppose is a logical term...though vague...
Cut. Dry. Simple. Comic-ish. And far better than banal stat sounds. They may not 100% match with every concept, but most will. And I sooooooooo do not want to be calling a DPSer 'Ranged Damage'. Just think about that. Listen to someone referring to their character like that. It's utterly absurd!
If you MUST keep this general naming convention...at least change the 'damage' bit on the two DPSers. I'd much rather have something I can apply a and an to, ya know? 'Ranged Damager' is just as absurd. Support sounds almost as lame but vaguely tolerable if I must. In any case they do NOT mesh with 'Tank' and 'Hybrid'.
I have a toon with con/rec, i rely on both to live, and sadly i'm not so good with this CO math, but.. if one is split.. i'd wanna keep my con as primary SS.. then i lose out my energy rates which is what keeps me going as a DPS.. i don't know how this would halp
Raising Tanks threat generation was necessary (though this is not so much of an improvement given you could achieve a roughly similar threat generation with a PRE SS). Lowering their damage output was necessary to make them a real group oriented role, but if you lower their damage output you need: 1/ make sure their threat generation is high enough 2/ raise their defense (1,2 -> 1,25 controls resistance, sorry but I call it a joke) in balance. Hybrids are as resilient as tanks. A slight natural damage mitigation for tanks could do the trick.
So nerfing hybrids isn't automaticaly the best solution, we could make the difference between specialised roles and Hybrid a bit more significant, especially with Tank and Support. Threat generation and survivability between tanks and hybrids are too close, healing hability between hybrids and supports is too close.
You do NOT get a + 30 percent bonus just for being in the role, you CAN reach this with stacking your superstats.
This is exactly the same way as it works currently. Damage roles have this + bonus damage for their role types damage.
Hero (Hybrid)
Blaster (Ranged Damage)
Striker (Melee Damage)
Brick (Tank)
Tactician (Support)
Run with invul in hybrid.. take attack buffs.. you instantly have a toon that cn ignore henchmen and attack as well as an unmaxed offensive toon. WHY then should they receive an additional buff?
If you're looking to find something that makes superstats worthwhile for Gaurdian Role, I say look at the things hybrids actually DO. AKA the things the other 3 roles DON'T do.. aka Soak, Hurt, Heal.. There's much more to the game than soak, hurt, or heal.
I think Hybrid's superstars should add to things that aren't direct from the character but from others. Pet Damage, Buff/Debuff strength, Confused enemy damage
Tank - +25% soak, +0% damage (depending on testing maybe even innate debuff)
Melee - +30% Melee dmg, +15% Ranged dmg
Blast - +25% Ranged dmg, +15% Melee dmg
Support - +30% Heals, +30% Holds, +0% Damage
Hybrid - +10% Damage, +20% Pet/confusd dmg, +25% Buff/Debuff strength (all things that don't affect your own avatar's stats)
I don't think that curve is too excitingly different than what people are doing now. Most Sorcery users will likely still use Hybrid because Support really doesn't offer anything GOOD for sorcery's passives
I like Blaster/Striker.
I like Hybrid as a name.
I also like Support as a name (better than tactician anyway)
I DISLIKE tank nor brick nor protector as a name..
Second this.
Much better names then the generic tank, ranged.
Hybrid Role:
Straight Shot: 1536
Dragon's Wrath: 2739
Ranged Damage Role:
Straight Shot: 1849
Dragon's Wrath: 2626
Melee Damage Role:
Straight Shot: 1479
Dragon's Wrath: 3283
Frankly I don't see where people are getting the idea that Hybrid role allows for higher damage than either Ranged or Melee damage roles. Just looking at the tooltips and a bit of testing shows the Melee damage role will outclass a Hybrid role character using the same melee attacks. The same is true for Ranged damage role and Hybrid using ranged attacks.
Super stat bonuses and the like are all additive with other damage bonuses. Role modifiers are multiplicative, which is why the Melee damage role provides the best melee damage and the Ranged damage role provides the best ranged damage.
This does a good job of summing it up.
Hybrid can produce good numbers when backed up by fantastic stats but it won't produce the same sort of higher end numbers you will get with melee attacks+melee role and ranged+ranged role.
On the same regard though, it shows that Hybrid has atleast been improved to stay on par with other Roles when using builds that don't concentrate on one or the other.
Thank you for posting with numbers.
Now how do we hard test Threat?
Good point, actually. 30% + 30% + what, 25% (?) from PRE SS and Protector is very equivalent to current Tank total threat bonus...AND Protector got more of this to actual damage!
Yeah...Devs...this is looking lamer and lamer for Tank. The only current benefit is not needing PRE. Big whup. Seriously, give them a boost inherent in the role. Multiplicative Threat bonus anyone?
SOMETHING.
PRE SS was nice before with the added threat bonus and the self-heal, for tanks...a tank was wise to take PRE before, but a DPSer didn't at all need PRE for the threat reduction when they could take a damage stat or two and accomplish that and more.
How are optimal tanks getting the promised 'boost' (to 'everyone') here at all with the changes?
Wholeheartedly agree.
Maybe, and again they need something more, but I'd still like some more overflowing globs of threat one way or another.
I can dig it overall, obviously (:)), though Tactician is a bit off. It's like I said though...difficult to find a descriptor that fits all of what Support entails.
Still prefer Healer there.
But I can see Hero for Hybrid, or some simile thereof, as it is basically a catch-all solo and essentially default role.
I like Blaster & Striker, descriptive enough to let you know they are rangerd & melee without simpley labeling them Ranged and Melee...
I'm curious to see how this works and the numbers to back up your claim. Impress me.
I went with not-Healer because I'm specifically trying to get people to think of Support role as more than just healing. So that when someone tries to use it to its full potential (ie: they aren't just a green-number-spambot) they aren't ostracized.
My brief experience with CoX made me wary of ever encouraging people to equate "support" with "healer".
"Tactician" at least makes new players think they'll need to use their brain a bit to play the role. Of course, having game mechanics here that actually support using holds and crowd control would help.
Could you post the stats of the build you used to refute falchoin's analysis?
I would really like to com are your numbers and try some reproductions using them.
Hybrid Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 3745
Melee Damage Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 4623
And just because the question was brought up earlier...
AoPM /w 8 Focus stacks Hybrid Role:
Dragon's Wrath - 3540
Again, the melee damage role is the clear winner for melee damage. In fact, the % difference is even higher due to the extra super stats from Hybrid making less of an overall impact to the additive bonus damage. Therefore, the more +dmg you stack the better the melee damage role is over hybrid for melee attacks.
Do you happen to have access to determine the Tank numbers, perchance? Because I'm looking at this and seeing that the Melee Damage Role will be churning out more threat (roughly 200 points more given the page 1 example) than the Hybrid role even with the bonus threat from the superstats.. which, I am assuming, is not supposed to happen.
Unless, of course, I'm missing some key piece of information regarding melee/ranged role threat that was omitted from the patch notes.
The Protector role provided no damage bonus prior so I imagine all tanks will be receiving roughly half the bonus damage they used to receive from superstats before.. more threat per superstat may be required to be baked into the role.
Unless, of course, its also intended to herd tanks towards the attacks that do virtually no damage but have a massive threat bonus as core tanking abilities.
I also think the new role names are _extremely_ uninspired. If there is still a chance for change, I'd like to put forward 'Meatshield' for the tank role's name.. or you can go back to the old one. d('-' )
I prefer to have more generalized names to keep it simple.
If i want to go on defensive, i can without being called a "tank".
If i want to go on offensive, i can without being called a "brawler".
But i'm sure you get the idea :cool:
Assumptions: Threat modifiers are not using "Cryptic Math" and modify the threat directly. Threat modifiers from roles are multiplicative.
Hybrid Role (WotW + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 3745
Hybrid Role (LR + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 3277
Hybrid role does not give any threat modifiers so the damage dealt is the same as the damage the mob "sees" threat-wise.
Melee Damage Role (WotW + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 4623
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are -10%, -18% and -10% with a multiplicative role modifier of -10% for a total of -41.8% threat. 4623 * (1 - 0.418) = 2691 so a mob "sees" 2691 damage from the actual 4623 damage.
Tank Role (LR + 8 Focus stacks):
Dragon's Wrath - 3061
Given the super stats the threat modifiers are 20%, 37% and 21% with a multiplicative role modifier of 10% for a total of +85% threat. 3061 * 1.85 = 5663 so a mob "sees" 5663 damage from the actual 3061 damage.
Conclusions:
Despite the damage role providing the highest damage, it yields the lowest threat. Tank role appears to be useless as the bonus threat does not look to be needed since even a Hybrid role with a defensive passive deals enough damage to keep aggro off a damage role character (all other things equal) even without using any threat gaining advantages.
This also means that offensive melee/ranged hybrids which are forced to use the Hybrid role will have the hardest time controlling their aggro while dealing sub par damage compared to their damage role counterparts. This truly is the final nail in the coffin of ranged/melee hybrids.
I point out that the role issue was not about the base damage numbers (what you posted makes these seem to make sense). The issue here is the way these base numbers are buffed. If there were a vaster gap between hybrid and tank more players would need an informed decision choosing their passive. Using LR in Hybrid should yeild some results, but should also give up survivability compared to Tank..
I'm not going to keep beating the same horse, but I dare say that "Hybrid" need not be a role .. but should be achievable through smart power choice (play a "tank" and take offense buffs.. you're a hybrid, ta-daa)
Again:
AME you have finally killed Offensive Melee and Ranged Hybrid builds after Akinos put them on lifesupport.
Please consider my plea that you apply the same hybridization that you gave the Shuriken powers in the martial arts trees to the melee powers in the Technology trees.
Why is it fair to offer melee/ranged hybridization to a ranged power in a melee set, while not offering Ranged/Melee hybridizaiton to the melee powers in the ranged technology sets?
The powers I speak of are:
Muntions--Bullet Beatdown (Ballet)
Gagettering--Chainsaw Guantlet.
Power Armor--Laser Sword.
These powers are the heavy hitters from their respective trees. On live these powers can be used to prop up the weak performing technology tree builds.
Just like you want to offer incentive to Martial Arts players to use Shuriken powers, offer that same incentive to the Technology trees to use their melee attacks.
Consider it.
This one's been on my mind for a long time. Especially now that the Ranged and Melee roles are near-identical. Might as well just mush them together. Like they used to be.
This this is the third change they have made, and we have been asking for this for quite some time, so at this point It isn't happening.
The best I can hope fo is that these melee powers in ranged sets, much like the ranged powers in martial arts be given the same Range/melee buff treatment.
Its only fair.
Solutions arn't short sighted. Numbers and gameplay are very different beasts. Numbers say "merge them" but gameplay says... Range>Melee in said merging
This is a bad idea.
First its a step back, we lose a role. Second the tank role is useless for those wishing to be sturdy AND do damage. Unless you plan on allowing us to use defensive passives in a offensive role.......which is a whole can of worms aside from this.
Hybrid is fine as it is, its an improvement from guardian even if its name isn't. Tank however needs its damage returned and an increase to something to make it attractive again for those wishing a brick style hero.
So you want to get rid of Hybrid altogether, yet you're also pushing for a removal of any dmg buff from the Tank role.
So what is a character who's offensive in nature supposed to do if they want to take a Defensive passive... which yes, is a perfectly viable build choice. And no, taking an Active Offense buff is not an answer, nor is a Toggle, Enrage, or Crit stacking, as anyone can take these and the relative damage amount already includes them on both ends.
From the numbers Falchoin has been posting, it seems like we're in a pretty good position right now for Hybrid, it's just Tank that needs to be looked at. It 'might' be worthwhile in a group, but it's nearly useless elsewhere.
Edit: Regarding the first part... it's also very hard to give up survivability compared to a Tank when the Tank doesn't 'get' any extra survivability, except for more HP, which the Hybrid does not get. Add extra survivability to the Tank role and *BAM*, Hybrid is less survivable.
You can't take away that which doesn't exist.
Forgot about that old Protector bonus...
Who knows...a tank might want to keep it off of a Hybrid too. *shrug* Guess that's what the threat advantages are for.
If nothing else, assuming these numbers pan out in play, Tank should have it's damage +30 and its threat +15 instead of the way it is now (which shouldn't affect threat much just give them their damage back, and make it quite akin to a Protector with PRE in the prior system), and a built in damage mitigation in role or some other cuter bonus than the HP (or in addition), so overall, it doesn't get boxed up and put in the attic for the rest of eternity (eternity in an MMO meaning several months of complaining until it's changed ;p).
Meaning threat is broken and needs to be fixed in general?
If there were only Support, Soak or Damage they could open up passives to be used in any role. Sorry I thought I stated that.
If the roles stay restricted I support having hybrid role.. just making it LESS effective than it is now because of it's inherent advantage of Min/Maxing.
yea you're right, i forgot to close my sarcasm box...
Orbital Canon : Hammer of Dawn advantage doesn't generate damage anymore.
Seraphim : The healing bonus granted by that skill is increasing each time you get healed by the passive aura of this passive.
General Support passives : Support passive, seems to be much more powerfull when in Support role for instance, aura of Ebon Destruction grants 70% +- damage bonus in Hybrid role while in Support role it will grant over 110% +- damage bonus.
General concerns : A build with a lot of presence is capable with Support role and +15% CC power items to use Holds that last more than 8sec. Remember Holds cannot be broken without any form of damage beside Breakfree skills like Ice Sheath or Resurgence + advantage. Wich could create very great disbalances and frustrations in the PVP aspect of the game.
In my opinion the damage roles are fine as they are, though I wouldn't mind in the least if Cryptic just made it a damage role in general that boosted both ranged and melee. Merging the Ranged and Melee damage roles would also solve the problem of offensive ranged/melee hybrid build aggro. Hybrid would still have a place as it gets healing bonuses for a bit of extra survivability. As odd as it seems, fewer options in this case allows for greater diversity.
After much tinkering with the Support role I've come to the conclusion that it's not quite as useless as I had thought previously. That said, I think either the -10% multiplicative damage modifier or the lower damage from super stats needs to change. I compared damage and healing of PTS Support vs Live Sentinel previously in this thread and my live character in Sentinel was better on both accounts. The healing difference was due to the Presence change but the loss of damage was due solely to the differences in role. I'm also curious as to how much the +crowd control strength is weighted in the Support role. Currently crowd controls in PvE are mostly useless as any mob that can be affected by them dies in short order.
The Hybrid role should stay as it is in my opinion. It provides a good balance of offense, support and can even theoretically hold threat vs damage role characters. The damage isn't as good as the offensive roles. The healing isn't as good as the Support role. The threat generation isn't as good as the Tank role. The Hybrid role is the jack of all trades and master of none, as it should be.
But isn't that Hybrid now ? It buffs both just not that much as the specialized ranged or melee role.
Since avenger now has lost the penalities guardian has to be seen more as a third damage role when played
with an offense passive i think.
If Brawler and Avenger are merged then we could also get rid of guardian, since its only purpose is then
maybe for defense passive users to make more damage, but for offense passives there is no need anymore
to use it since they don't have the negative effects anymore.
Not quite. Hybrid for offensive passive users could be seen as a soloing type role or for those who want to run some type of offensive/support hybrid due to the healing super stat bonuses of the Hybrid role.
So in other words, if I leave it at 70, I'll get the most beneficial bonus to my ego attack?
Good point, hybrid is more of a bridge between support and damage than just between ranged and melee damage.
Both ranged and melee should be merged into one, offensive role.
Support role is better now after the changes since support passives are more effective, it could stay that way, since the presence stat no longer boosts healing that hard, same for bubbles, the overall heal isn't higher than it used to be for the healer builds.