plze can anyone tell me how to get out of resistance cuz im stuck in there with my lvl 20 and no help i see no exits anywhere.I just want to exit the stupid thing.its very frustrating that the respawn is in there and no way out exept to complete it or what ?everywhere i go i get shot down by the huge robots AHHHHH plze help me anyone:(( i dont want to delete my character...:(
plze can anyone tell me how to get out of resistance cuz im stuck in there with my lvl 20 and no help i see no exits anywhere.I just want to exit the stupid thing.its very frustrating that the respawn is in there and no way out exept to complete it or what ?everywhere i go i get shot down by the huge robots AHHHHH plze help me anyone:(( i dont want to delete my character...:(
Just log out and wait 5-10 mins. When you log back in, you'll be in MC.
Iron man changes from power armor to... power armor! wow!
Sue Richards had shields virtually from day one.
When Venom changes host, he keeps using the same power... precisely the ability to manipulate his hosts.
There are examples of extreme changes. Not all of them are permanent but even the short-term ones are for months if not a year. Meanwhile as someone else said, not all retcons have to be large sweeping changes.
Superman went to Superman Blue / Superman Red
Became an energy-based being, kind of a combination of blaster and controller.
Couldn't interact with the world without a special suit.
Lost his strength and durability.
Could "toggle" to human form, meaning his was completely vulnerable. IE, could stub his toe on a desk.
Granted not permanent, but it lasted around 6 months.
Iron Man got Extremis, meaning
He can heal a little bit slower than Wolverine even without his suit.
He can interface with computers with his mind, again without the suit.
After Dark Reign (which was recent), his entire suit is stored in his body and can re-form it by will (I want for "eyes" here).
Also after Dark Reign, he is more of a cyborg as his reactor now powers everything including software that runs his autonomic functions (heart-beat, breathing, etc).
This is quite long-term, as Extremis started maybe 10 years ago and is still present. And yet they even made more changes recently.
Guy Gardner went from a Green Lantern to "Warrior" after the GL corps fell. He could "morph" parts of his body into weapons due to some latent alien DNA and had super strength and durability in the "realm" of Superman. This lasted for years.
Venom is currently a Deadpool type of character, using guns and such. As opposed to being a melee brute with symbiote tentacle attacks. Sure it's still a symbiote controlling someone, but to the outside world going from a large/brutish Spiderman to a slim Deadpool character is quite a leap. This is still new and ongoing.
Captain Atom went from his metal skin and firing energy bolts, to having to wear a power armor as The Monarch. Besides firing his energy bolts, his "body" could also drive various Power Armor weapons and devices. This lasted for some months during Countdown to Final Crisis.
Meanwhile, years back Captain Atom went from a human-looking person in a yellow suit to a Metal-skinned person with no suit.
Sue Richards did NOT have shields from day one. But it was early in her career that she got them. Still, a retcon since they realized that just being invisible isn't so great when you keep fighting bad guys that can afford IR goggles.
The problem is that lockouts do not make a fight challenging. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. I have characters that are perfectly capable of staying in the fight the entire time on elite difficulty (unless I get a lag spike at the wrong time but that will kill anyone). The fights can be made challenging without lockouts but the lockouts themselves do not affect the challenge level of the fight. They just make it boring for anyone who dies for any reason, whether that person just wants to "Zerg" (yeah, the personal attacks started with you and were aimed at everyone who wants to do away with the lockouts regardless of reason) or they got hit with a bad spot of lag or whatever. This fight is your completely generic "Big Bag of Hit Points" where you occasionally need to block an attack, no interesting mechanics or real challenge at all... just an unforgiving black wall if something goes wrong.
No, zerging is not the only reason to want to do away with the lockouts. Wanting one lag spike or one mistimed block to not result in a half hour of complete and total BOREDOM is another.
The problem is that lockouts do not make a fight challenging. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. I have characters that are perfectly capable of staying in the fight the entire time on elite difficulty (unless I get a lag spike at the wrong time but that will kill anyone). T
It's hard to say they don't make the fight more challenging.
I can hold my own, but if my team starts dying then there's a chance I will soon follow.
To be honest, my PuG teams usually fall during the early part due to the number of ADDs. And after a while too many people died and there were too many ADDs for me to solo along with the boss(es). When this happens I'm usually the last or 2nd-to-last standing.
So if most of the team is dead, it's not worth trying to stand there and solo (or duo) the final bosses unless Endbringer is already up and has some decent damage already. Otherwise, might as well wipe.
I have a couple of characters that can quite easily stand in there even if the other four team members should fall. Doesn't really make it any more challenging... just more boring even for me because all of a sudden I am the only one doing the damage and therefore the fight takes much longer. Yeah, that's fun.
I have a couple of characters that can quite easily stand in there even if the other four team members should fall. Doesn't really make it any more challenging... just more boring even for me because all of a sudden I am the only one doing the damage and therefore the fight takes much longer. Yeah, that's fun.
My "understanding" is that more team-mates == more ADDs. So if your team drops at the wrong time you have a whole bunch of ADDs to deal with in certain phases, which can make things more challenging. Not impossible or perhaps even very hard, but at least hard(er) if it happens at the wrong time.
But as you said it's just not fun for anyone when it's just one survivor left trying to finish off the battle.
Iron man changes from power armor to... power armor! wow!
Batman changes no power. He just changes a few devices.
What you described about any green lanrtern is precisely his/her power. No change here.
Sue Richards had shields virtually from day one.
Hulk, green, grey, or whatever the colour keeps having the same power: superstrength.
When Venom changes host, he keeps using the same power... precisely the ability to manipulate his hosts.
And etc etc etc...
All the heroes you listed keep beeing the same heroes with just a minor occasional change to their powers. And still, the list of heroes who never ever change their powers is astronomically bigger than the examples of very minor power changes that you have provided. The rule, what 99% of heroes do, is never ever change the powers, not even slightly.
Any hero with an actualy full retcon? Not one yet on your list.
you want examples of full retcons ok here we go
Spider-Man while wanted for murder abandoned the spider-man persona and instead adopted 3 radically different hero personas with very different powers.
Iron man yes you could dismiss them as just more power Armour but that's overly simplistic some of his variants have altered his abilities extensively then there was the extermitus upgrade which turned his armor into something more like the current blue beetle. It also gave him a kind of healing factor
Guy gardner went from being a green lantern to some kind of alien hybrid back to a green lantern
superman has had his powers altered or added to a lot over the years his original incarnation couldn't even fly. Then we have the hole blue/red thing where he lost all his normal powers and gained a bunch of new ones.
emma frost developed a whole new set of abilities
psylock was originally a telipath then she was a telikinetik then a telipath again then she was both then she died and was resurected a while later by her brother but altered so that she was imune from external manipulation and control oh and some where amongst all that happening she gained and lost again shadow powers.
Jubilee originally a mutant with the power to project small blasts of energy then she lost her powers during M day and became a member of the new warriors and had technologically derived super strength and now she's a vampire with the associated abilities that comes with.
chamber again a mutant who lost his powers on m day joined up with new warriors and had compleatly new powers (went from some kind of psionic plasma blast to sonic powers) and now since the last x event he has the plasma blasts back
i could list the other new warriors as well but seems redundant as there all the same story as jubilee and chamber.
then theirs legion he's like a walking retcon able to manifest a hole new set of powers by acsesing different personalities.
theirs lots more but i think i've covered anuff to say yes retcons are very in keeping with the source material
My "understanding" is that more team-mates == more ADDs.
It does and I can even handle the huge number of adds alone on a couple of my toons if it comes to that... but that just makes it even more boring since I'm sitting there blocking more often than not and takes even longer to do the require amount of damage.
Ok, I ll give you the full retcon thing existing in comics too. But you'll have to admit that those are exception, not what happens 90% of the times.
Anyway, I am still waiting for somebody addressing my two main points, so no more derailing, please.
As I said:
1) Zerg=zero challenge
(So, yes, lockouts make the fight more challenging becouse... 0.00000000001 > 0)
2) If you (or your team mates) weren't dying, you wouldn't be complaining.
Thing is, as I said, zerg means loosing is impossible. You are inmortal. You can just run back in as many times as needed. You wanna go there with unbalanced groups and lacking builds and manage an end-boss anyway. That has been the main point all the time.
If you are the only man standing in a 5-man team... well, the other 4 guys failed. Sorry to be so blunt but it's simple as that. Don't blame a fight that was owned on day 1 by pugs on elite mode. Blame the 4 guys who failed. They need to get better.
When I fail, I analize my mistakes and try to do it better next time. Complaining in the forums is the easy way out. "It's a badly designed fight!". Well, it's not. Get there with a properly balanced team (cmon, the guy who started complaining ended up admiting he was going there with 5 melee dps toons, where's the balance in there), with players who block on time and don't act suicidally, and, voil
[etc etc, sorry for the editing, going to the point I want to address]
They just make it boring for anyone who dies for any reason, whether that person just wants to "Zerg" (yeah, the personal attacks started with you and were aimed at everyone who wants to do away with the lockouts regardless of reason) [etc etc].
Excuse me, but I can't see where's the personal attack.
Zerging is, by definition, since the old UO days, running back in after having died to join the fight again. I am just using a language convention that everybody uses to define a way of playing.
And just in case, cos I can see it coming, there's a difference between talking about bad players in general (you know they are there and they are legion) and directly accusing somebody of beeing an "elitist hardcore", which, believe it or not, is not my case. As I said, if I was an elitist hardcore I would not be playing this for starters. And even if I actually was one, you know the expression was used as an obvious personal attack.
Excuse me, but I can't see where's the personal attack.
Zerging is, by definition, since the old UO days, running back in after having died to join the fight again. I am just using a language convention that everybody uses to define a way of playing.
And just in case, cos I can see it coming, there's a difference between talking about bad players in general (you know they are there and they are legion) and directly accusing somebody of beeing an "elitist hardcore", which, believe it or not, is not my case. As I said, if I was an elitist hardcore I would not be playing this for starters. And even if I actually was one, you know the expression was used as an obvious personal attack.
Actually "Zerging is not just running back in after dying but running back in after dying REPEATEDLY like the lemmings you called all of us earlier.
Yes, there are bad players but that has nothing to do with this argument. Your attitude is readily apparent however much you try to deny it. Alternatives to the lockouts are available and have been presented by the players and yet you stubbornly stick by the lockout mechanic of which you seem to be the SOLE proponent.
Ok, I ll give you the full retcon thing existing in comics too. But you'll have to admit that those are exception, not what happens 90% of the times.
Um no I don't if anything retconing either in the form of compleat powerchange or the sudden and inexplicable addition of new abilities has happened to a very large percentage of comic book characters to the point that most currently active characters have undergone some form of retcon in their lifetime the few exceptions I can think of that have not are those individuals whose powers are so wide-ranging that its unclear exactly what their limitations are or those whose power set is so integral to the character that to change them would change the character.
Actually "Zerging is not just running back in after dying but running back in after dying REPEATEDLY like the lemmings you called all of us earlier.
Yes, there are bad players but that has nothing to do with this argument. Your attitude is readily apparent however much you try to deny it. Alternatives to the lockouts are available and have been presented by the players and yet you stubbornly stick by the lockout mechanic of which you seem to be the SOLE proponent.
Bad alternatives if you ask me.
The "cage of death" one would end up with ppl complaining about not beeing able to overcome such "cage of death" and asking for it to be removed... so they can zerg.
The "boss regens with each death" would end up with ppl complaining about the boss healing too much and asking for the healing to be removed... so they can zerg.
And the lemming thing, cmon, it was just an hyperbole. Gosh, do you have to take everything personal? Actually lemmings are cute aren't they? :P
And I am not the only one defending lockouts here. Can you please check the thread? Not to mention the ones who manage it without any problem don't need to come to the forums asking for nerfs. This happens here and in every single game forum.
How often do you see threads about "this is too easy, please make it harder"?
Anyway, I am still waiting for a sensible answer to my main point:
Um no I don't if anything retconing either in the form of compleat powerchange or the sudden and inexplicable addition of new abilities has happened to a very large percentage of comic book characters to the point that most currently active characters have undergone some form of retcon in their lifetime the few exceptions I can think of that have not are those individuals whose powers are so wide-ranging that its unclear exactly what their limitations are or those whose power set is so integral to the character that to change them would change the character.
What retcons have these guys gone through?
Cyclops
Galactus
Magneto
Juggernaut
The Thing
The Swamp Thing
Canary
Dazzler
Wolwerine
Wendigo
Sasquatch
Silver Surfer
The Punisher
Elektra
Black Widow
Thor
Longshot
Beast
Angel
Nightcrawler
Wonder Woman
etc etc
No sorry, for every hero retconing you may come up with I can easily come with 3 that never did. Not to mention most of the examples you provided were not willing "retcons" that the heroes come through. Shall the game system change your powers randomly from time to time so you can have better inmersion?
I'd be fine with lockouts, but ever been the last one alive after your whole team beat on the endbringer on elite? When they wipe, and you've only got a tiny bit to whittle down? Then, if you die, and hit a self rez, it regains full health and locks your friends out again because you drew threat the second you stood up? That happened to me from time to time, before I retconned. It strikes me as a really dumb mechanic, especially knowing I had a minute of fighting, maybe, to kill it, but nope. The lockout mechanism healed it to full and totally nullified the entire *point* of one of my powers, and locked my friends out at the same time, so I had to die/lose stars/waste a cooldown all at once, or fight the thing for an hour while my friends went and made dinner. And, I half expect to be told "it's because your build sucks" or any of the other stuff I've seen tossed around in this thread, but the fact is that sometimes wipes just happen. People miss blocks.
As for the how zerging can be a challenge part? Do me a favor, go gather a 5 man group of level 28s and go take on mega-d. Even discounting the time limit, tell me how that works out for you. After all, he's in your level range at that point, and you can zerg. Should be no problem, right?
I got all the ones in the cages, in formation, and went into the next block but no one has a "press z" command.
There should be exactly 10 in the first room... the room with the cages that you first enter after donning your disguise... and there should be at LEAST 10 in the room where Kodiak appears, the room with cells on three levels around the walls. Not all of the inmates are resistance troops so you may have to hunt around a bit but unless it is bugged, they should be plenty to finish the mission. If there are not then log out to reset the mission but make sure to file a bug report on it.
There should be exactly 10 in the first room... the room with the cages that you first enter after donning your disguise... and there should be at LEAST 10 in the room where Kodiak appears, the room with cells on three levels around the walls. Not all of the inmates are resistance troops so you may have to hunt around a bit but unless it is bugged, they should be plenty to finish the mission. If there are not then log out to reset the mission but make sure to file a bug report on it.
Don't forget the upper levels too, which has at least 8 more.
Don't forget the upper levels too, which has at least 8 more.
I was not aware that there were any on the upper levels as I have never needed to venture any higher to complete the task. I get the 10 in the first room then go to the room where Kodiak enters to get the remainder.
I'd be fine with lockouts, but ever been the last one alive after your whole team beat on the endbringer on elite? When they wipe, and you've only got a tiny bit to whittle down? Then, if you die, and hit a self rez, it regains full health and locks your friends out again because you drew threat the second you stood up? That happened to me from time to time, before I retconned. It strikes me as a really dumb mechanic, especially knowing I had a minute of fighting, maybe, to kill it, but nope. The lockout mechanism healed it to full and totally nullified the entire *point* of one of my powers, and locked my friends out at the same time, so I had to die/lose stars/waste a cooldown all at once, or fight the thing for an hour while my friends went and made dinner. And, I half expect to be told "it's because your build sucks" or any of the other stuff I've seen tossed around in this thread, but the fact is that sometimes wipes just happen. People miss blocks.
As for the how zerging can be a challenge part? Do me a favor, go gather a 5 man group of level 28s and go take on mega-d. Even discounting the time limit, tell me how that works out for you. After all, he's in your level range at that point, and you can zerg. Should be no problem, right?
What I am not going to admit on top of it all, is lies.
I never said "your build sucks" in this despective way. I said "your build is lacking". Don't ever put words I did not say in my mouth again.
If my healer on sentinel role and a rank 1 block does not die when hit by a crit and blocking and yours does (the case I was referring to when I told the guy his build was lacking), it is very obvious to me that your build is lacking becouse it is way too weak. If you see it as a personal attack, the intention was a honest advice: fix your build.
You say, "people miss blocks". Well, missing a block is making a mistake. Why have ppl such a big problem with dealing with their mistakes and trying to get better?
Ofc wipes sometimes happen! In this and in every single MMO you may think of where there's group combat involved. It's got to do with challenge. You are only reinforcing my point. It does look like you want an impossible-to-fail fight.
The particular example about you wiping becouse you are the last man standing, then you die, hit a self-rezz and the boss aggroes right then and kill you again... Well, here come the sucession of mistakes.
All your team mates died: mistake
Then you die too: mistake
Then you hit the rezz before you make sure the boss is agroed on the NPC again: mistake
Mistake+mistake+mistake=wipe. Yes, ofc. The problem is...?
Fancy that, the same scenario happened to me once. I was the last man standing when the boss was about to die, (the guy one-shotted the rest). And then he killed me too while trying to rezz them. I used my self-rez and then rezzed the rest of the guys, and we won. Nobody got locked out, the boss did not regen and we won.
Regarding the Mega-D example you are giving... For starters we know we ll never manage to do this experiment. As soon as Mega-D appears some extra guys will appear. Secondly, that is a timed fight. Do you wanna make the Endbringer a timed fight too? How long until we get people here complaining about not beeing able to kill the boss becouse they can't kill him on time?
Not a single instanced boss in this game is timed. Given that, my point stands still: Zerg = zero challenge.
Ok, I ll give you the full retcon thing existing in comics too. But you'll have to admit that those are exception, not what happens 90% of the times.
And I will concede that too.
In fact it was my argument early in the game, back in the early months where the forums were full of threads where players complained about the cost of RetCons.
They whined that it should be dirt cheap because it happens in the comics.
At which point I would reply saying that yes it does, but not THAT often, not THAT drastic, and not THAT permanent.
It happens, and probably more often than most people realize unless they currently read comics (like I do). But it's still not THAT common.
I was not aware that there were any on the upper levels as I have never needed to venture any higher to complete the task. I get the 10 in the first room then go to the room where Kodiak enters to get the remainder.
It's not needed... but when you're in a group of 5, sending someone up there can get your 15 weapons delivered faster. Also alternatively, you can forgo going to the first room at all.
Not a single instanced boss in this game is timed.
Technically false; Luther Black is timed. Granted, he's not a conventional boss either, and the timer is for you complete the objective as opposed to defeating the boss, but timed neitherless.
Technically false; Luther Black is timed. Granted, he's not a conventional boss either, and the timer is for you complete the objective as opposed to defeating the boss, but timed neitherless.
Granted people also complain about the time/AI issues with that, so it's still a valid complaint. It doesn't have lockout, but with it's mechanics it might as well have them.
But outside of instances, there're plenty of timed bosses; To be exact, every Open Mission with a boss fight would count.
Someone tweaked something in the Oubilette fight... Now they automatically aggro on the Overseers instead of running into the bunker to aggro me, even when the overseers are distracted by destroids...
EDIT: seems to be random... but still, they shouldn't be aggroed by the overseers if the overseers are aggroed on something else and you are there for them to aggro on. Don't know why they sometimes decide to fight the overseers instead of you. It also seems like they removed force cascade from Lapiz, at least at lv 11. Which I guess does solve the "getting knocked out of room" problem.. (and makes that fight easier)
Granted people also complain about the time/AI issues with that, so it's still a valid complaint. It doesn't have lockout, but with it's mechanics it might as well have them.
But outside of instances, there're plenty of timed bosses; To be exact, every Open Mission with a boss fight would count.
Cyclops was one of they guys I was thinking of when talking about defind by there powers to the point that changing them would be a compleatly new hero with that said he has had a few tweaks over the years mostly in the lerning of hand to hand fighting styles also his powers quite frequently move from being able to fire a blast of concusive force from his eyes to fireing some kind of energy often this iis at the whim of teh writer when they need him to melt somthing or blow somthing up. He was also over come by the spirit of apocolipse at one point which had him showing extra abilities.
Galactus
Galactis comes uder the whole so powerfull that there is no solid definition of what his powers are to begin with with that said at one point the galactus was a human cursed by some means into becoming the devourer of worlds but that history has been compleatly reworked and we now have the current big G whos one of the Aspects of reality or somthing.
Magneto
Went from being the master of magnitisum to being able to manipulate the wholl electromagnetic spectrum not a huge change but certinly ramped his power level up
Juggernaut
Has allways been about strength as far as I can remember he was recently in possesion of the Uni-power I'm not sure if that altered his powers and now he's one of the norse fear gods hammer bearers which most likely has changed his powers but I've not read any of them yet
The Thing
I don't know much about the thing to be honest though I'm pretty sure he's been turned back to his human form on a few ocasions and still acted as a hero.
The Swamp Thing
Went from being a example of when super science go's wrong monster, to being a plant elimental to now being a god
Canary
Not sure who you mean here I can only think of black canary and white canary from birds of prey are there others?
Ok kinda board now so if I've not typed anything I cant think of anything
Dazzler
Wolwerine
Bezerker with claes, samuri/ninga with a sword, special ops guy with lots of guns
Wendigo
Sasquatch
Silver Surfer
The Punisher
Guy with guns -> guy with lots of tech toys including a artificiul symbiot suit -> angelic hitman ->frankenstein like monster -> back to just a guy with guns
Elektra
Black Widow
Thor
Longshot
Beast
Human with gymnastic abilites looked a bit like a naked ape, Blue furry dude still gymnastic but now with claws, Giant blue catman type thing with bigger claws and bigger teath and a recent tast for human flesh
Angel
Angel -> Arch angel -> back to angel -> angel with funly glowing wings -> now able to switch from angel to ark angel oh and theres the dose he dosnt he have healing blood in there some where.
Nightcrawler
sudenly developed a love for swash buckling over his normal marshal arts
Wonder Woman
Which version she's changed almost as much as big S
etc etc
No sorry, for every hero retconing you may come up with I can easily come with 3 that never did.
Seems I just shot sever of your 3 for 1 out the air
Not to mention most of the examples you provided were not willing "retcons" that the heroes come through. Shall the game system change your powers randomly from time to time so you can have better inmersion?
I don't know much about the thing to be honest though I'm pretty sure he's been turned back to his human form on a few ocasions and still acted as a hero.
Indeed, there was a period of time back in the '70s when The Thing reverted back to human and Ben Grimm still fought with in FF in Thing "armor" that increased his strength...
Edit: Wait a sec; I need a little clarification. Are we talking a comic retcon or a CO retcon? Comic retcons are frequently just changes in the character history and origin, with maybe minor power tweaks. If you're talking comic retcons, almost every character on that list has ungone some type of "updating".
If you're talking a CO retcon, as in a complete power re-do, yeah, that doesn't happen as often in comics, but that's not saying it doesn't happen frequently...
Indeed, there was a period of time back in the '70s when The Thing reverted back to human and Ben Grimm still fought with in FF in Thing "armor" that increased his strength...
Edit: Wait a sec; I need a little clarification. Are we talking a comic retcon or a CO retcon? Comic retcons are frequently just changes in the character history and origin, with maybe minor power tweaks. If you're talking comic retcons, almost every character on that list has ungone some type of "updating".
If you're talking a CO retcon, as in a complete power re-do, yeah, that doesn't happen as often in comics, but that's not saying it doesn't happen frequently...
Not full scale power changes, but the advantages and talents do change often enough. (or at least the capabilities of their abilities)
Seems I just shot sever of your 3 for 1 out the air
No need thats why we have imginations and RP
You managed to show a couple of major changes. On most cases you did not even manage to put a single comment in. On other cases you only pointed a minor cosmetic change. And on others you showed a change in the background, not an actual change on the powers, like the swamp thing. In the end, you are just reinforcing my point.
Again, not a single one was awilling one. And you justify this with imagination and roleplaying. Cool. Feel free to imagine and roleplay that you killed the boss after a wipe, and you don't need to repeat the fight or wait locked out while the rest of your team dies.
Every excuse is weaker and more derailing than the previous one, and I am still waiting for somebody to address the actual point.
You managed to show a couple of major changes. On most cases you did not even manage to put a single comment in. On other cases you only pointed a minor cosmetic change. And on others you showed a change in the background, not an actual change on the powers, like the swamp thing. In the end, you are just reinforcing my point.
Swamp thing is now a god what his powers are at this poin't is unclear though he was just breathing fire which is probably new for him.
Again, not a single one was awilling one.
Consider this the player is the writer not the charachter then its the same thing writer decides to spice things up a bit and charachters powers change the only diffrence here is theres UI interface to do it.
And you justify this with imagination and roleplaying. Cool. Feel free to imagine and roleplay that you killed the boss after a wipe, and you don't need to repeat the fight or wait locked out while the rest of your team dies.
Really not the same thing for a start if the heroes were locked out of a battle in a comic they wouldn't just stand around doing nothing.
Every excuse is weaker and more derailing than the previous one, and I am still waiting for somebody to address the actual point.
NO CHALLENGE
Which point would that be that retcons never happen in comics think we've established that they do and the more I think about it the more i'm convinced its happened to every comic charachter ever. Or are we back to talking about lock outs?
If we are where exactly is the chalange in a lock out how is zerging as you described it any different from wipeing and trying again over and over?
If we are where exactly is the chalange in a lock out how is zerging as you described it any different from wipeing and trying again over and over?
The Retcon thing came up becouse somebody said that lockouts killed inmersion. Then the conversation derailed.
The main difference between beeing able to zerg or not is so obvious...
If I can manage to make only 1 point of dmg before dying and I can Zerg, I will win regardless. If I can't Zerg, I will never manage. It's so damned obvious that I can't get my head around you asking it.
The Retcon thing came up becouse somebody said that lockouts killed inmersion. Then the conversation derailed.
The main difference between beeing able to zerg or not is so obvious...
If I can manage to make only 1 point of dmg before dying and I can Zerg, I will win regardless. If I can't Zerg, I will never manage. It's so damned obvious that I can't get my head around you asking it.
I ask because as far as i can see there's no difference between doing 1 point of damage dieing and repeating until they defeat the boss and attacking the boss dieing and repeating until they get lucky both take a stupidly long amount of time neither is fun or much of a challenge.
I ask because as far as i can see there's no difference between doing 1 point of damage dieing and repeating until they defeat the boss and attacking the boss dieing and repeating until they get lucky both take a stupidly long amount of time neither is fun or much of a challenge.
I can't believe you can't understand the difference. Are you trying to troll me?
If you wipe with a lockout mechanism, when you run back in, the boss has reset. You must kill the boss without dying.
When zerging is present the boss won't reset, so it's granted win, zero challenge. You can die lolzillion times and win anyway.
Yes, in a comic book fight they would be out cold instead, so they're laying about doing nothing...
except more than 50% of the time they'll be back up on their feet in the nick of time to deliver the KO shot to the big bad especially if it's there book.
Yes but theres nothing stopping you doing this a bazillion times till you get luck is there
Thanks for proving my point again. If you rely on luck, I rely on skill. This is why I dont mind lockouts.
And still, when zerging you don't even need luck.
And anyway, no amount of luck is going to prevent getting one-shotted if you don't know how to block on time.
Your arguments only get weaker on each post.
Really, trying to justify that this boss without lockouts is as challenging as this boss with them is beyond beeing stubborn now. It's arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no way you can justify this, not matter how hard you keep trying. You can't even fool yourself on this now.
It's so "on your face" obvious that you denying it is just ridiculous. To a point where I am honestly starting to think that you are just trying (or actually managing) to troll me.
Thanks for proving my point again. If you rely on luck, I rely on skill. This is why I dont mind lockouts.
And still, when zerging you don't even need luck.
And anyway, no amount of luck is going to prevent getting one-shotted if you don't know how to block on time.
Your arguments only get weaker on each post.
Really how so you just claimed I rely on luck I have compleated the AP several times there for I must have got lucky several times so my point still stands there is no diffrence betwean zerging and doing the encounter over and over till you get lucky.
Really, trying to justify that this boss without lockouts is as challenging as this boss with them is beyond beeing stubborn now. It's arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no way you can justify this, not matter how hard you keep trying. You can't even fool yourself on this now.
I did not say that the boss without lock outs is a chalenge I said that the fight with lockouts is not fun I also said that the level of chalange betwean zerging and doing the same battle repetadly till you get lucky is the same. I have suggested atkeast 2 alternatives to the lock out mechanic which would make the fight more of a chalange.
It's so "on your face" obvious that you denying it is just ridiculous. To a point where I am honestly starting to think that you are just trying (or actually managing) to troll me.
Oh I'm not trying to troll any one unfortunately you just seem to have a great amount of difficulty grasping why I belive the lock out mechanic should be removed and replaced with something else so ill lay them out again
1. The lock out mechanic is not FUN there is no fun to be had waiting out sided the encounter because a unfortunately times lag spike or server disconnect (the one where you get the little clock running in the middle of your display) causes you to miss a block or a heal.
2. the level of actual skill involved in defeating end bringer is so low as to be unimportant once you are aware of the fight pattern. In fact it's so low that I just tasered the ugly bugger to death on my last elite run (yes people there is a use for all those tazers after all)
3. To be perfectly honest IMO zerging would make the fight more fun at this point and at least I could have the chalange of "lets see how many deaths i do/don't get this time round"
In short remove the lockout and replace with something more fun over all and also make the challenging on elite runs a bit more.
Comments
Just log out and wait 5-10 mins. When you log back in, you'll be in MC.
There are examples of extreme changes. Not all of them are permanent but even the short-term ones are for months if not a year. Meanwhile as someone else said, not all retcons have to be large sweeping changes.
Superman went to Superman Blue / Superman Red
Iron Man got Extremis, meaning
Guy Gardner went from a Green Lantern to "Warrior" after the GL corps fell. He could "morph" parts of his body into weapons due to some latent alien DNA and had super strength and durability in the "realm" of Superman. This lasted for years.
Venom is currently a Deadpool type of character, using guns and such. As opposed to being a melee brute with symbiote tentacle attacks. Sure it's still a symbiote controlling someone, but to the outside world going from a large/brutish Spiderman to a slim Deadpool character is quite a leap. This is still new and ongoing.
Captain Atom went from his metal skin and firing energy bolts, to having to wear a power armor as The Monarch. Besides firing his energy bolts, his "body" could also drive various Power Armor weapons and devices. This lasted for some months during Countdown to Final Crisis.
Sue Richards did NOT have shields from day one. But it was early in her career that she got them. Still, a retcon since they realized that just being invisible isn't so great when you keep fighting bad guys that can afford IR goggles.
No, zerging is not the only reason to want to do away with the lockouts. Wanting one lag spike or one mistimed block to not result in a half hour of complete and total BOREDOM is another.
It's hard to say they don't make the fight more challenging.
I can hold my own, but if my team starts dying then there's a chance I will soon follow.
To be honest, my PuG teams usually fall during the early part due to the number of ADDs. And after a while too many people died and there were too many ADDs for me to solo along with the boss(es). When this happens I'm usually the last or 2nd-to-last standing.
So if most of the team is dead, it's not worth trying to stand there and solo (or duo) the final bosses unless Endbringer is already up and has some decent damage already. Otherwise, might as well wipe.
My "understanding" is that more team-mates == more ADDs. So if your team drops at the wrong time you have a whole bunch of ADDs to deal with in certain phases, which can make things more challenging. Not impossible or perhaps even very hard, but at least hard(er) if it happens at the wrong time.
But as you said it's just not fun for anyone when it's just one survivor left trying to finish off the battle.
you want examples of full retcons ok here we go
Spider-Man while wanted for murder abandoned the spider-man persona and instead adopted 3 radically different hero personas with very different powers.
Iron man yes you could dismiss them as just more power Armour but that's overly simplistic some of his variants have altered his abilities extensively then there was the extermitus upgrade which turned his armor into something more like the current blue beetle. It also gave him a kind of healing factor
Guy gardner went from being a green lantern to some kind of alien hybrid back to a green lantern
superman has had his powers altered or added to a lot over the years his original incarnation couldn't even fly. Then we have the hole blue/red thing where he lost all his normal powers and gained a bunch of new ones.
emma frost developed a whole new set of abilities
psylock was originally a telipath then she was a telikinetik then a telipath again then she was both then she died and was resurected a while later by her brother but altered so that she was imune from external manipulation and control oh and some where amongst all that happening she gained and lost again shadow powers.
Jubilee originally a mutant with the power to project small blasts of energy then she lost her powers during M day and became a member of the new warriors and had technologically derived super strength and now she's a vampire with the associated abilities that comes with.
chamber again a mutant who lost his powers on m day joined up with new warriors and had compleatly new powers (went from some kind of psionic plasma blast to sonic powers) and now since the last x event he has the plasma blasts back
i could list the other new warriors as well but seems redundant as there all the same story as jubilee and chamber.
then theirs legion he's like a walking retcon able to manifest a hole new set of powers by acsesing different personalities.
theirs lots more but i think i've covered anuff to say yes retcons are very in keeping with the source material
It does and I can even handle the huge number of adds alone on a couple of my toons if it comes to that... but that just makes it even more boring since I'm sitting there blocking more often than not and takes even longer to do the require amount of damage.
Anyway, I am still waiting for somebody addressing my two main points, so no more derailing, please.
As I said:
1) Zerg=zero challenge
(So, yes, lockouts make the fight more challenging becouse... 0.00000000001 > 0)
2) If you (or your team mates) weren't dying, you wouldn't be complaining.
Thing is, as I said, zerg means loosing is impossible. You are inmortal. You can just run back in as many times as needed. You wanna go there with unbalanced groups and lacking builds and manage an end-boss anyway. That has been the main point all the time.
If you are the only man standing in a 5-man team... well, the other 4 guys failed. Sorry to be so blunt but it's simple as that. Don't blame a fight that was owned on day 1 by pugs on elite mode. Blame the 4 guys who failed. They need to get better.
When I fail, I analize my mistakes and try to do it better next time. Complaining in the forums is the easy way out. "It's a badly designed fight!". Well, it's not. Get there with a properly balanced team (cmon, the guy who started complaining ended up admiting he was going there with 5 melee dps toons, where's the balance in there), with players who block on time and don't act suicidally, and, voil
Excuse me, but I can't see where's the personal attack.
Zerging is, by definition, since the old UO days, running back in after having died to join the fight again. I am just using a language convention that everybody uses to define a way of playing.
And just in case, cos I can see it coming, there's a difference between talking about bad players in general (you know they are there and they are legion) and directly accusing somebody of beeing an "elitist hardcore", which, believe it or not, is not my case. As I said, if I was an elitist hardcore I would not be playing this for starters. And even if I actually was one, you know the expression was used as an obvious personal attack.
Actually "Zerging is not just running back in after dying but running back in after dying REPEATEDLY like the lemmings you called all of us earlier.
Yes, there are bad players but that has nothing to do with this argument. Your attitude is readily apparent however much you try to deny it. Alternatives to the lockouts are available and have been presented by the players and yet you stubbornly stick by the lockout mechanic of which you seem to be the SOLE proponent.
Um no I don't if anything retconing either in the form of compleat powerchange or the sudden and inexplicable addition of new abilities has happened to a very large percentage of comic book characters to the point that most currently active characters have undergone some form of retcon in their lifetime the few exceptions I can think of that have not are those individuals whose powers are so wide-ranging that its unclear exactly what their limitations are or those whose power set is so integral to the character that to change them would change the character.
Bad alternatives if you ask me.
The "cage of death" one would end up with ppl complaining about not beeing able to overcome such "cage of death" and asking for it to be removed... so they can zerg.
The "boss regens with each death" would end up with ppl complaining about the boss healing too much and asking for the healing to be removed... so they can zerg.
And the lemming thing, cmon, it was just an hyperbole. Gosh, do you have to take everything personal? Actually lemmings are cute aren't they? :P
And I am not the only one defending lockouts here. Can you please check the thread? Not to mention the ones who manage it without any problem don't need to come to the forums asking for nerfs. This happens here and in every single game forum.
How often do you see threads about "this is too easy, please make it harder"?
Anyway, I am still waiting for a sensible answer to my main point:
zerg=zero challenge.
What retcons have these guys gone through?
Cyclops
Galactus
Magneto
Juggernaut
The Thing
The Swamp Thing
Canary
Dazzler
Wolwerine
Wendigo
Sasquatch
Silver Surfer
The Punisher
Elektra
Black Widow
Thor
Longshot
Beast
Angel
Nightcrawler
Wonder Woman
etc etc
No sorry, for every hero retconing you may come up with I can easily come with 3 that never did. Not to mention most of the examples you provided were not willing "retcons" that the heroes come through. Shall the game system change your powers randomly from time to time so you can have better inmersion?
So? I don't retcon every toon either.
And I don't die at the endbringer.
Is this a known issue?
Have you tried both rooms that contain inmates?
As for the how zerging can be a challenge part? Do me a favor, go gather a 5 man group of level 28s and go take on mega-d. Even discounting the time limit, tell me how that works out for you. After all, he's in your level range at that point, and you can zerg. Should be no problem, right?
Both rooms?
I got all the ones in the cages, in formation, and went into the next block but no one has a "press z" command.
There should be exactly 10 in the first room... the room with the cages that you first enter after donning your disguise... and there should be at LEAST 10 in the room where Kodiak appears, the room with cells on three levels around the walls. Not all of the inmates are resistance troops so you may have to hunt around a bit but unless it is bugged, they should be plenty to finish the mission. If there are not then log out to reset the mission but make sure to file a bug report on it.
Don't forget the upper levels too, which has at least 8 more.
I was not aware that there were any on the upper levels as I have never needed to venture any higher to complete the task. I get the 10 in the first room then go to the room where Kodiak enters to get the remainder.
What I am not going to admit on top of it all, is lies.
I never said "your build sucks" in this despective way. I said "your build is lacking". Don't ever put words I did not say in my mouth again.
If my healer on sentinel role and a rank 1 block does not die when hit by a crit and blocking and yours does (the case I was referring to when I told the guy his build was lacking), it is very obvious to me that your build is lacking becouse it is way too weak. If you see it as a personal attack, the intention was a honest advice: fix your build.
You say, "people miss blocks". Well, missing a block is making a mistake. Why have ppl such a big problem with dealing with their mistakes and trying to get better?
Ofc wipes sometimes happen! In this and in every single MMO you may think of where there's group combat involved. It's got to do with challenge. You are only reinforcing my point. It does look like you want an impossible-to-fail fight.
The particular example about you wiping becouse you are the last man standing, then you die, hit a self-rezz and the boss aggroes right then and kill you again... Well, here come the sucession of mistakes.
All your team mates died: mistake
Then you die too: mistake
Then you hit the rezz before you make sure the boss is agroed on the NPC again: mistake
Mistake+mistake+mistake=wipe. Yes, ofc. The problem is...?
Fancy that, the same scenario happened to me once. I was the last man standing when the boss was about to die, (the guy one-shotted the rest). And then he killed me too while trying to rezz them. I used my self-rez and then rezzed the rest of the guys, and we won. Nobody got locked out, the boss did not regen and we won.
Regarding the Mega-D example you are giving... For starters we know we ll never manage to do this experiment. As soon as Mega-D appears some extra guys will appear. Secondly, that is a timed fight. Do you wanna make the Endbringer a timed fight too? How long until we get people here complaining about not beeing able to kill the boss becouse they can't kill him on time?
Not a single instanced boss in this game is timed. Given that, my point stands still: Zerg = zero challenge.
And I will concede that too.
In fact it was my argument early in the game, back in the early months where the forums were full of threads where players complained about the cost of RetCons.
They whined that it should be dirt cheap because it happens in the comics.
At which point I would reply saying that yes it does, but not THAT often, not THAT drastic, and not THAT permanent.
It happens, and probably more often than most people realize unless they currently read comics (like I do). But it's still not THAT common.
It's not needed... but when you're in a group of 5, sending someone up there can get your 15 weapons delivered faster. Also alternatively, you can forgo going to the first room at all.
Technically false; Luther Black is timed. Granted, he's not a conventional boss either, and the timer is for you complete the objective as opposed to defeating the boss, but timed neitherless.
You are right, I missed that one.
Granted people also complain about the time/AI issues with that, so it's still a valid complaint. It doesn't have lockout, but with it's mechanics it might as well have them.
But outside of instances, there're plenty of timed bosses; To be exact, every Open Mission with a boss fight would count.
Except for every single boss in Therakiel's Temple.
EDIT: seems to be random... but still, they shouldn't be aggroed by the overseers if the overseers are aggroed on something else and you are there for them to aggro on. Don't know why they sometimes decide to fight the overseers instead of you. It also seems like they removed force cascade from Lapiz, at least at lv 11. Which I guess does solve the "getting knocked out of room" problem.. (and makes that fight easier)
They are locked, but not timed.
Well, they can enrage, but there is no actual time counter. Even enraged, if you manage to kill them, you win.
This is why I said "instanced".
Enrage timers are pretty much the industry standard for timers on bosses.
Thanks
Lets see working from memory
Cyclops was one of they guys I was thinking of when talking about defind by there powers to the point that changing them would be a compleatly new hero with that said he has had a few tweaks over the years mostly in the lerning of hand to hand fighting styles also his powers quite frequently move from being able to fire a blast of concusive force from his eyes to fireing some kind of energy often this iis at the whim of teh writer when they need him to melt somthing or blow somthing up. He was also over come by the spirit of apocolipse at one point which had him showing extra abilities.
Galactis comes uder the whole so powerfull that there is no solid definition of what his powers are to begin with with that said at one point the galactus was a human cursed by some means into becoming the devourer of worlds but that history has been compleatly reworked and we now have the current big G whos one of the Aspects of reality or somthing.
Went from being the master of magnitisum to being able to manipulate the wholl electromagnetic spectrum not a huge change but certinly ramped his power level up
Has allways been about strength as far as I can remember he was recently in possesion of the Uni-power I'm not sure if that altered his powers and now he's one of the norse fear gods hammer bearers which most likely has changed his powers but I've not read any of them yet
I don't know much about the thing to be honest though I'm pretty sure he's been turned back to his human form on a few ocasions and still acted as a hero.
Went from being a example of when super science go's wrong monster, to being a plant elimental to now being a god
Not sure who you mean here I can only think of black canary and white canary from birds of prey are there others?
Ok kinda board now so if I've not typed anything I cant think of anything
Bezerker with claes, samuri/ninga with a sword, special ops guy with lots of guns Guy with guns -> guy with lots of tech toys including a artificiul symbiot suit -> angelic hitman ->frankenstein like monster -> back to just a guy with guns
Human with gymnastic abilites looked a bit like a naked ape, Blue furry dude still gymnastic but now with claws, Giant blue catman type thing with bigger claws and bigger teath and a recent tast for human flesh
Angel -> Arch angel -> back to angel -> angel with funly glowing wings -> now able to switch from angel to ark angel oh and theres the dose he dosnt he have healing blood in there some where.
sudenly developed a love for swash buckling over his normal marshal arts
Which version she's changed almost as much as big S
Seems I just shot sever of your 3 for 1 out the air
No need thats why we have imginations and RP
Marvel seem to be retconing some one every other month this weather
Indeed, there was a period of time back in the '70s when The Thing reverted back to human and Ben Grimm still fought with in FF in Thing "armor" that increased his strength...
Edit: Wait a sec; I need a little clarification. Are we talking a comic retcon or a CO retcon? Comic retcons are frequently just changes in the character history and origin, with maybe minor power tweaks. If you're talking comic retcons, almost every character on that list has ungone some type of "updating".
If you're talking a CO retcon, as in a complete power re-do, yeah, that doesn't happen as often in comics, but that's not saying it doesn't happen frequently...
Not full scale power changes, but the advantages and talents do change often enough.
You managed to show a couple of major changes. On most cases you did not even manage to put a single comment in. On other cases you only pointed a minor cosmetic change. And on others you showed a change in the background, not an actual change on the powers, like the swamp thing. In the end, you are just reinforcing my point.
Again, not a single one was awilling one. And you justify this with imagination and roleplaying. Cool. Feel free to imagine and roleplay that you killed the boss after a wipe, and you don't need to repeat the fight or wait locked out while the rest of your team dies.
Every excuse is weaker and more derailing than the previous one, and I am still waiting for somebody to address the actual point.
NO CHALLENGE
Swamp thing is now a god what his powers are at this poin't is unclear though he was just breathing fire which is probably new for him.
Consider this the player is the writer not the charachter then its the same thing writer decides to spice things up a bit and charachters powers change the only diffrence here is theres UI interface to do it.
Really not the same thing for a start if the heroes were locked out of a battle in a comic they wouldn't just stand around doing nothing.
Which point would that be that retcons never happen in comics think we've established that they do and the more I think about it the more i'm convinced its happened to every comic charachter ever. Or are we back to talking about lock outs?
If we are where exactly is the chalange in a lock out how is zerging as you described it any different from wipeing and trying again over and over?
The Retcon thing came up becouse somebody said that lockouts killed inmersion. Then the conversation derailed.
The main difference between beeing able to zerg or not is so obvious...
If I can manage to make only 1 point of dmg before dying and I can Zerg, I will win regardless. If I can't Zerg, I will never manage. It's so damned obvious that I can't get my head around you asking it.
I ask because as far as i can see there's no difference between doing 1 point of damage dieing and repeating until they defeat the boss and attacking the boss dieing and repeating until they get lucky both take a stupidly long amount of time neither is fun or much of a challenge.
I can't believe you can't understand the difference. Are you trying to troll me?
If you wipe with a lockout mechanism, when you run back in, the boss has reset. You must kill the boss without dying.
When zerging is present the boss won't reset, so it's granted win, zero challenge. You can die lolzillion times and win anyway.
Yes, in a comic book fight they would be out cold instead, so they're laying about doing nothing...
Yes but theres nothing stopping you doing this a bazillion times till you get luck is there
except more than 50% of the time they'll be back up on their feet in the nick of time to deliver the KO shot to the big bad especially if it's there book.
Thanks for proving my point again. If you rely on luck, I rely on skill. This is why I dont mind lockouts.
And still, when zerging you don't even need luck.
And anyway, no amount of luck is going to prevent getting one-shotted if you don't know how to block on time.
Your arguments only get weaker on each post.
Really, trying to justify that this boss without lockouts is as challenging as this boss with them is beyond beeing stubborn now. It's arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no way you can justify this, not matter how hard you keep trying. You can't even fool yourself on this now.
It's so "on your face" obvious that you denying it is just ridiculous. To a point where I am honestly starting to think that you are just trying (or actually managing) to troll me.
Really how so you just claimed I rely on luck I have compleated the AP several times there for I must have got lucky several times so my point still stands there is no diffrence betwean zerging and doing the encounter over and over till you get lucky.
I did not say that the boss without lock outs is a chalenge I said that the fight with lockouts is not fun I also said that the level of chalange betwean zerging and doing the same battle repetadly till you get lucky is the same. I have suggested atkeast 2 alternatives to the lock out mechanic which would make the fight more of a chalange.
Oh I'm not trying to troll any one unfortunately you just seem to have a great amount of difficulty grasping why I belive the lock out mechanic should be removed and replaced with something else so ill lay them out again
1. The lock out mechanic is not FUN there is no fun to be had waiting out sided the encounter because a unfortunately times lag spike or server disconnect (the one where you get the little clock running in the middle of your display) causes you to miss a block or a heal.
2. the level of actual skill involved in defeating end bringer is so low as to be unimportant once you are aware of the fight pattern. In fact it's so low that I just tasered the ugly bugger to death on my last elite run (yes people there is a use for all those tazers after all)
3. To be perfectly honest IMO zerging would make the fight more fun at this point and at least I could have the chalange of "lets see how many deaths i do/don't get this time round"
In short remove the lockout and replace with something more fun over all and also make the challenging on elite runs a bit more.