Well, four tries on teams today, all four ended the same way.
Had a blast all the way through until the end boss. Note, SPOILERS INCOMING!
Ok. Each team was a mix of melee guys and ranged guys. The ranged guys tended to be squishy.
The melee guys would attack, and the black rings would be summoned with the boss in the center of them. THROUGH BLOCK, they do 300-500 damage per second. Without it, 2000-3000. Further, they slow your movement so you cannot escape if you are caught by three at once, meaning instant death. Even if you DO escape, you're now on a sliver of health.
The squishies get oneshotted or otherwise wiped out even faster than the melee guys.
Worst of all, anyone that dies CANNOT GET BACK IN until the whole team wipes, which resets the boss, meaning you start over.
Each time, the team disbanded a bit at a time as players got frustrated and angry.
DEVS! This is NOT THE REACTION YOU WANT TO CAUSE. This game is no so resoundingly popular that you can afford to go ticking off the players with content that is this badly designed.
I'm sorry, I call them as I see them.
I assume you are on the first part? I'm not sure why you are taking so much damage through the rings, if assuming you have reasonable defences. (If you are on the second, the summoned rings has a significant startup time, starting with a crystal falling, then the rift forms, and only then the damage starts. When you see a crystal fall anywhere near you, RUN IMMEDIATELY.) What is your build and passive, and have you kept your upgrades up to date?
I don't know about your ranged guys, but for me I generally keep my travel power active at all times so I can escape faster; I rarely get hit more than twice. Granted I am also using both AoRP and IDF, but I also have practically no con (only 23 total from misc minor upgrade extra bonuses and base value)
Far as I've been able to tell, all of my characters have the same sorts of problems with the Black Fight. That's not a melee/ranged thing, that's a retarded Demon Key AI thing.
Maybe, but it's a little known fact (far as I can gather) that aggro is also scaled via distance, so to get Black to focus on you faster, sticking close is about the only way I can do so (and possibly changing stance to balanced/protector so you can cause more aggro faster). Regardless, I've had success only if I am at melee range. (using energy builder at melee range seems to hold aggro better than using minigun at longer distances)
I assume you are on the first part? I'm not sure why you are taking so much damage through the rings, if assuming you have reasonable defences. (If you are on the second, the summoned rings has a significant startup time, starting with a crystal falling, then the rift forms, and only then the damage starts. When you see a crystal fall anywhere near you, RUN IMMEDIATELY.) What is your build and passive, and have you kept your upgrades up to date?
I don't know about your ranged guys, but for me I generally keep my travel power active at all times so I can escape faster; I rarely get hit more than twice. Granted I am also using both AoRP and IDF, but I also have practically no con (only 23 total from misc minor upgrade extra bonuses and base value)
The characters range from L21-L26, and have varying powers. However, I tend to build tanks with either Defiance or Invulnerability. In all cases, my defenses are maximized, and my enhancements are up to date. In other words, my characters are about as tough as I can make them.
The problem isn't just that the rings do a ton of damage you can't escape once you're hit. As you point out, there's a bit of a delay. However, as a melee character, you're of NO use standing on the edge of the battle because you can't approach a foe surrounded by these black rings.
Here's a foe with 1000 times my health, he's immune to knocks, stuns and other controls, has an endless barrage of AOE powers that prevent melee characters from approaching for more than two or three seconds at a time, and he both regenerates and heals constantly.
It's a bad character design. He's tough enough already, they didn't need to make him unapproachable.
The characters range from L21-L26, and have varying powers. However, I tend to build tanks with either Defiance or Invulnerability. In all cases, my defenses are maximized, and my enhancements are up to date. In other words, my characters are about as tough as I can make them.
The problem isn't just that the rings do a ton of damage you can't escape once you're hit. As you point out, there's a bit of a delay. However, as a melee character, you're of NO use standing on the edge of the battle because you can't approach a foe surrounded by these black rings.
Here's a foe with 1000 times my health, he's immune to knocks, stuns and other controls, has an endless barrage of AOE powers that prevent melee characters from approaching for more than two or three seconds at a time, and he both regenerates and heals constantly.
It's a bad character design. He's tough enough already, they didn't need to make him unapproachable.
I think the problem is that both DD and End moves around too much; you'll only notice him using that AoE in melee range only if he's targetting someone in melee range (the ground pound should be normal blockable/survivable with decent defences)... which is very frequent if DD is also in melee range. It would solve a lot of issues if they just root DD and End in place. (including End aggroing on the medics, End running outside battle range, End running ourside SD AoE stun after shield depletion range..)
There's a perk called 'Daikaiju: Defeat Shadow Destroyer without piloting a Mega-Destroid'.
Was it the intention that you should be able to pilot a Mega Destroid to take him out? If so, that doesn't work as the conversation you have with the tech guy next to them just fizzles out second time around. That was one of the first things I tried when I found that it was impossible to solo.
There's a perk called 'Daikaiju: Defeat Shadow Destroyer without piloting a Mega-Destroid'.
Was it the intention that you should be able to pilot a Mega Destroid to take him out? If so, that doesn't work as the conversation you have with the tech guy next to them just fizzles out second time around. That was one of the first things I tried when I found that it was impossible to solo.
No. It means that you've to somehow take down the pillars without piloting a Mega-Destroid. Also, the perk is bugged the last time someone tried it.
My favorite of the three APs, though I've only been able to finish it once so far. Started it on a second character and haven't had time to do it all in one sitting. Hate having to do huge sections of it all over when I quit before finishing the sewers or prison. Such is the cost of working and having a family I suppose :P Though it would entice me to play more if there were more points I could continue from.
Well, four tries on teams today, all four ended the same way.
Had a blast all the way through until the end boss. Note, SPOILERS INCOMING!
Ok. Each team was a mix of melee guys and ranged guys. The ranged guys tended to be squishy.
The melee guys would attack, and the black rings would be summoned with the boss in the center of them. THROUGH BLOCK, they do 300-500 damage per second. Without it, 2000-3000. Further, they slow your movement so you cannot escape if you are caught by three at once, meaning instant death. Even if you DO escape, you're now on a sliver of health.
The squishies get oneshotted or otherwise wiped out even faster than the melee guys.
Worst of all, anyone that dies CANNOT GET BACK IN until the whole team wipes, which resets the boss, meaning you start over.
Each time, the team disbanded a bit at a time as players got frustrated and angry.
DEVS! This is NOT THE REACTION YOU WANT TO CAUSE. This game is no so resoundingly popular that you can afford to go ticking off the players with content that is this badly designed.
I'm sorry, I call them as I see them.
Well, I have completed it on elite every single time I have gone there on first try.
So, I can't see what's badly designed. Maybe you are just using wrong tactics or setups.
Well, I go there with a tank and a healer, the healer beeing me most often. Yeah, I know, the holy trinity, and blabiddyblah. But it works.Are you bringinh those?
Finally, I love that you can't run in and zerg it. You can do that in far too many bosses in this game, and it ruins all the fight. If it was up to me, (I know it isn't), every single boss in game would be like that. If you die and release, you are out of the fight until what¡'s left of your team wins or looses for good.
If I have to complain about anything, the AOE range on the destroids are maybe a bit out of hand but well, learn to block on time.
Other than that, in my opinion the best AP so far.
Please consider dropping all boss lockouts on Normal difficulty. I think that'd make things more fun for those of us that are struggling, while leaving Elite as a challenge. (And I'm perfectly okay with rewards being available on Elite that don't drop on Normal)
I guess you are realizing that a zergeable fight is a fight with zero challenge. You know you can't loose even if you die a thousand times.
Are you really having fun with a fight like that? I mean it.. really, where is the fun if you know the outcome of the fight even before you start, when you can just zerg it with zero tactics whatsoever?
No one is saying you shouldn't need to fight smart. Quite the contrary, having foes that are just huge piles of health runs directly counter to needing to fight smart. All I'm saying is the foes can't be fought effectively by melee characters because of the way they and certain powers are being implemented.
The black rings do too much damage and are too difficult to escape from. They effective take melee characters out of the fight if SD stands in them, which is usually the case.
That means the fight depends on ranged characters, who tend to die the first time he targets them.
Difficult is fine. Frustrating isn't. You can't force out an entire class of character (melee) in any enemy design, especially a boss. It's a bad design.
Here's what I learned from playing the REAL Champions, back in the day.
The enemies books made foes like we see in this game. They had astronomical defenses and vastly overpowered attacks. Often, TWICE as powerful as the players could be. This meant the players couldn't hurt the enemies, and they couldn't survive the attacks.
Thus, what I discovered I had to do was increase the health of the villains, while keeping their defenses and attacks roughly on par with the heroes. Thus, if the heroes were doing 12d6 damage, the villain should be doing 12-15d6. If the heroes have around 30pd, the villain should be around that too. It was STUN (Health) where the villain had to be superior, so he could survive the heroes attacks long enough to make him a threat.
Of course, I could give the villain some kind of special story-bound thing that would boost his abilities, but then the point of the battle is to allow some of the group to distract him while the rest deactivates his power booster. In a straight fight, though, you have to make the villain accessible, or he's no fun to fight.
Consider Grond.
Right now, he has so much health it's basically futile for anyone to fight him. Worse, he does so much damage, it's more or less impossible for anyone to fight him (at-level). He jumps in, oneshots you and you can't hurt him. Standing around blocking until he goes away isn't very heroic and not much fun.
THey SHOULD have made his attacks roughly 1.5 times as strong as the typical hero attacks (ie if the average hero at L26 does around 500 damage, Grond should be doing 750 - not 3000). His defenses should be roughly the same as a hero at that level, plus a bit more. His health would make him tough enough to need a team for, but he would still be possible to fight (though probably not defeat).
Well, I have completed it on elite every single time I have gone there on first try.
So, I can't see what's badly designed. Maybe you are just using wrong tactics or setups.
Well, I go there with a tank and a healer, the healer beeing me most often. Yeah, I know, the holy trinity, and blabiddyblah. But it works.Are you bringinh those?
Finally, I love that you can't run in and zerg it. You can do that in far too many bosses in this game, and it ruins all the fight. If it was up to me, (I know it isn't), every single boss in game would be like that. If you die and release, you are out of the fight until what¡'s left of your team wins or looses for good.
If I have to complain about anything, the AOE range on the destroids are maybe a bit out of hand but well, learn to block on time.
Other than that, in my opinion the best AP so far.
The AoE range is 100 feet. (or maybe 120, but around there). It's basically similar to the Mega D at MC, though with less hp, and summons an overseer reinforcement instead of useless cannon fodder troops. Speaking of twhich, you can probably practice at the Mega D at MC.
Also, tanks aren't exactly crucial to this pack, frankly, though healers and/or self-sufficient DPS makes the pack go much faster. (the only boss which may justify a tank, is squishy enough to be zerged in a minute. (that's for all 3 parts of her battle)
The end boss is highly anti-melee. It's annoying, but then most bosses -are- anti-melee. I'd love to fight a boss that was anti-range and weak vs melee, for once.
I didn't mind it, but I would have liked an alternative. I mean, my Thunder God character single handedly brought down a Mega-Destroid, but he's going to surrender to a bunch of thugs with sticks? Really, he's not supposed to be subtle. I said to the other team members (in character, I like to RP a little at least), "I am the God of Thunder, it is not my way to skulk in the shadows like a common thief."
I wanted to bash their heads, not sneak around. Both options should have been possible.
I didn't mind it, but I would have liked an alternative. I mean, my Thunder God character single handedly brought down a Mega-Destroid, but he's going to surrender to a bunch of thugs with sticks? Really, he's not supposed to be subtle. I said to the other team members (in character, I like to RP a little at least), "I am the God of Thunder, it is not my way to skulk in the shadows like a common thief."
I wanted to bash their heads, not sneak around. Both options should have been possible.
Absolutely yes.
I honestly will probably never run resistance again because of this.
No one is saying you shouldn't need to fight smart. Quite the contrary, having foes that are just huge piles of health runs directly counter to needing to fight smart. All I'm saying is the foes can't be fought effectively by melee characters because of the way they and certain powers are being implemented.
The black rings do too much damage and are too difficult to escape from. They effective take melee characters out of the fight if SD stands in them, which is usually the case.
That means the fight depends on ranged characters, who tend to die the first time he targets them.
Difficult is fine. Frustrating isn't. You can't force out an entire class of character (melee) in any enemy design, especially a boss. It's a bad design.
Here's what I learned from playing the REAL Champions, back in the day.
The enemies books made foes like we see in this game. They had astronomical defenses and vastly overpowered attacks. Often, TWICE as powerful as the players could be. This meant the players couldn't hurt the enemies, and they couldn't survive the attacks.
Thus, what I discovered I had to do was increase the health of the villains, while keeping their defenses and attacks roughly on par with the heroes. Thus, if the heroes were doing 12d6 damage, the villain should be doing 12-15d6. If the heroes have around 30pd, the villain should be around that too. It was STUN (Health) where the villain had to be superior, so he could survive the heroes attacks long enough to make him a threat.
Of course, I could give the villain some kind of special story-bound thing that would boost his abilities, but then the point of the battle is to allow some of the group to distract him while the rest deactivates his power booster. In a straight fight, though, you have to make the villain accessible, or he's no fun to fight.
Consider Grond.
Right now, he has so much health it's basically futile for anyone to fight him. Worse, he does so much damage, it's more or less impossible for anyone to fight him (at-level). He jumps in, oneshots you and you can't hurt him. Standing around blocking until he goes away isn't very heroic and not much fun.
THey SHOULD have made his attacks roughly 1.5 times as strong as the typical hero attacks (ie if the average hero at L26 does around 500 damage, Grond should be doing 750 - not 3000). His defenses should be roughly the same as a hero at that level, plus a bit more. His health would make him tough enough to need a team for, but he would still be possible to fight (though probably not defeat).
Every single time I fought the end boss we had melee chars in team engaging him directly. Still, fight done on elite on first try. Always.
Melee fighters are not out of he fight. at least they never are in my teams.
And by the way, my tank is a ranged tank. Yes, ranged. Yes, tank. Trust me he is HARD to kill. If the ranged players you play with go for glass cannon builds with low survivability don't expect to win the fight without a healer.
So, you go there without tank, without healer, with unbalanced glass cannon players and then you complain you can't win the fight?
Sorry, but I still disagree. The end boss is perfectly balanced. He was getting beaten on elite already the very same day it was released, and it was pugs doing that, not any advanced uberleet SG.
With all respects, (and I am not trying to talk down to anybody or anything like that, don't get me wrong) you are just using wrong tactics or wrong builds or maybe both. Try to work out what you are doing wrong before asking for a boss-nerf.
I didn't mind it, but I would have liked an alternative. I mean, my Thunder God character single handedly brought down a Mega-Destroid, but he's going to surrender to a bunch of thugs with sticks? Really, he's not supposed to be subtle. I said to the other team members (in character, I like to RP a little at least), "I am the God of Thunder, it is not my way to skulk in the shadows like a common thief."
I wanted to bash their heads, not sneak around. Both options should have been possible.
Agreed. You should have the option to just go and smash them. We are superheros, cmon, we fight giant bots, demons, demi-gods, supervillains, radiactive dinosaurs, king-kongs on fire, aliens, mutants, undeads... a bunch of thugs and some guards shouldnt scare us so much that we need to disguise.
No. It means that you've to somehow take down the pillars without piloting a Mega-Destroid. Also, the perk is bugged the last time someone tried it.
I managed to get it with a team of 3. It's long, it's annoying, you die again and again and again and again and again and again and again until the anchors are destroyed and you only get a perk and no other reward for that BUT it works.
Actually, the description isn't precise enough. You have to enter a Mega-Destroid once and immediately leave it to make the objectives appear and make the anchors vulnerable. If you sneak around without entering and leaving a Mega-D, the anchors will be invulnerable no matter how hard you hit.
I wanted to bash their heads, not sneak around. Both options should have been possible.
So basically, the devs made efforts to create 1 area in the whole game where you have to sneak around doing sabotaging stuff to change from the "kill everything that moves for XP!" and that is a very welcome change of pace that fits the resistance theme of the AP, and they allowed us to kill every single enemy in this area without them warning the whole prison they've been breached, except for the guardbots and there are still people complaining?
You know you can rush this whole area by knocking heads around in the 2 cell blocks, you just only have to disable the guardbots if you can't wait a few seconds to avoid the 2-3 patrolling ones, right?
So I haven't played through all of Resistance yet because it was bugged...however, about Griz's cut scene... (highlight for text)
Does he really die?
If so...have him be killed by an enemy...don't make him commit suicide.
It's ridiculous...when you have players on your team that could just shoot the damn thing.
*No, he's tougher than that, and shows back up at the end. Though I'm kind of baffled why everyone is taking this so seriously, it's just supposed to be a funny moment. OF COURSE you could shoot it, but that's not the way The Griz thinks!*
*No, he's tougher than that, and shows back up at the end. Though I'm kind of baffled why everyone is taking this so seriously, it's just supposed to be a funny moment. OF COURSE you could shoot it, but that's not the way The Griz thinks!*
*Alright, that's good to hear.
I'm not thinking it's bad or anything...it's an epic cutscene...it's just that there is no need for the suicide.
However...now that I know he lives...it makes it even more epic...if that's possible.
*No, he's tougher than that, and shows back up at the end. Though I'm kind of baffled why everyone is taking this so seriously, it's just supposed to be a funny moment. OF COURSE you could shoot it, but that's not the way The Griz thinks!*
BTW, because of that scene, really the part juuuuussst before it, where Griz quotes/paraphrases a certain favorite movie of mine, you guys made my day. I was a fan before, but man. And of course it made me feel just a wee bit old since I saw that movie in the theaters.
Quote below in Spoiler-Free zone.
The movie was Wizards (IMDB it!) and the actual quote (not Griz's) was: Fritz! Fritz, get up for God's sake! Get up! They've killed Fritz! They've killed Fritz! Those lousy stinking yellow fairies! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin! Those despicable animal warmongers! They've killed Fritz! Take that! Take this! Take that, you green slime! You black hearted, short, bow-legged...
You know you can rush this whole area by knocking heads around in the 2 cell blocks, you just only have to disable the guardbots if you can't wait a few seconds to avoid the 2-3 patrolling ones, right?
Actually, you can also defeat the guardbots if you can do so before they properly detect you. Went with a team last night which two of our members tried to do so with every guardbot; Got caught a few times, but they disabled over half of them.
OK. After reading this thread, I tried to solo Resistance once more on Elite. I have a character with ranged attacks, but moderate tanking abilities -- good enough that even with two Overseers attacking me, I still took down one of them to half before dying. The problem -- I can lure the overseer(s); but the resistance guys cant take out the rest of the trash. They die. Trying to take out the trash first was impossible for me; after 45 minutes I gave it up. The annihilator bots and Destroids on the pad combined with 2 overseers got me every time, and they all regenerated to full even if I used rebirth rather than recovering. Destroyed trooper bots reappeared, as well.
Trying to kite (acrobatics T2) and draw a few at a time with the overseers didn't seem to work either; they would follow a short way, but then run back on to the pad. You basically have to fight them on the pad. help would be appreciated. I can put my build up if needed. He is basically a freeform abyssal build. (so I can have healing bots, masterful dodge, bountiful chi, etc).
One other question on tactics: Has anyone tried taking out the Destroid Overseer console using teleport or tunneling to get to it undetected? Or intentionally dying next to the console, and using rebirth to spawn next to it and behind the overseer? I may try the last; but it is the only one I can test with my favorite character.
I managed to get it with a team of 3. It's long, it's annoying, you die again and again and again and again and again and again and again until the anchors are destroyed and you only get a perk and no other reward for that BUT it works.
I've already done it so not inclined to do it again, but now that I've done it I could probably do it again without deaths and without defeating a single critter; you can do the whole thing without ever getting in range of anything but the helicopters, and with the right build the helicopters can't really hurt you...
Every single time I fought the end boss we had melee chars in team engaging him directly. Still, fight done on elite on first try. Always.
Melee fighters are not out of he fight. at least they never are in my teams.
And by the way, my tank is a ranged tank. Yes, ranged. Yes, tank. Trust me he is HARD to kill. If the ranged players you play with go for glass cannon builds with low survivability don't expect to win the fight without a healer.
So, you go there without tank, without healer, with unbalanced glass cannon players and then you complain you can't win the fight?
Sorry, but I still disagree. The end boss is perfectly balanced. He was getting beaten on elite already the very same day it was released, and it was pugs doing that, not any advanced uberleet SG.
With all respects, (and I am not trying to talk down to anybody or anything like that, don't get me wrong) you are just using wrong tactics or wrong builds or maybe both. Try to work out what you are doing wrong before asking for a boss-nerf.
Sorry, but I didn't really make my point as I was a bit angry
What I should have pointed out was that the AP is supposed to be scalable, both on level and whether solo or in a group. The official Resistence page states :-
The missions and adversaries encountered in Resistance will adjust to your level. All Champions Online Adventure Packs utilize a scaling technology that allows you to play Resistance missions starting at level 11 and up to level 40, either solo or with groups of up to 5 players.
I ran this as a solo melee at level 14. At this level, you don't even have access to any of the higher level skills which make your toon more survivable in such dangerous environments. Remember, not all of us are lvl 40 and have as much uber kit as we can lay our hands on, or even have the time to experiment with various builds. Some of us, myself included, are currently low level and play the game as and when RL lets us. We also like to 'theme' our skill set to our liking, which, as long as it doesn't result in an unplayable toon in normal play, we stick with because we like the look and / or feel. These builds may not be the most effective in the world, but it's a fantasy game that we play for enjoyment, not in order to get the most powerfull superbeing in game.
My point is, that the AP doesn't scale as it should, as it doesn't seem to take into account any of the above. I agree that the bosses should not just be nerfed to allow anyone to do it easily, but I do feel that the scaling engine that is used should try and take (at least some of) the above into account.
The rest of the AP had some very hard parts which had me pulling my hair out at some points, but were at least ultimately do-able in the end with the correct tactics, and this greatly added to my enjoyment. Right up to the end boss, which as of level 14, I had the survivability of a soap bubble in a supernova
Sorry, but I didn't really make my point as I was a bit angry
What I should have pointed out was that the AP is supposed to be scalable, both on level and whether solo or in a group. The official Resistence page states :-
The missions and adversaries encountered in Resistance will adjust to your level. All Champions Online Adventure Packs utilize a scaling technology that allows you to play Resistance missions starting at level 11 and up to level 40, either solo or with groups of up to 5 players.
I ran this as a solo melee at level 14. At this level, you don't even have access to any of the higher level skills which make your toon more survivable in such dangerous environments. Remember, not all of us are lvl 40 and have as much uber kit as we can lay our hands on, or even have the time to experiment with various builds. Some of us, myself included, are currently low level and play the game as and when RL lets us. We also like to 'theme' our skill set to our liking, which, as long as it doesn't result in an unplayable toon in normal play, we stick with because we like the look and / or feel. These builds may not be the most effective in the world, but it's a fantasy game that we play for enjoyment, not in order to get the most powerfull superbeing in game.
My point is, that the AP doesn't scale as it should, as it doesn't seem to take into account any of the above. I agree that the bosses should not just be nerfed to allow anyone to do it easily, but I do feel that the scaling engine that is used should try and take (at least some of) the above into account.
The rest of the AP had some very hard parts which had me pulling my hair out at some points, but were at least ultimately do-able in the end with the correct tactics, and this greatly added to my enjoyment. Right up to the end boss, which as of level 14, I had the survivability of a soap bubble in a supernova
I understand now. Well, I have not tried it solo, so all, my comments are suddenly invalid now. XD
Scaling does still have some room for improvement, agreed. I ve come to the conclussion that APs are easiest with 3 players. Less players tend to make it slow and more players tend to turn some fights into a knock-back mess where you keep bouncing from place to place as if you were a ball in some kind of evil pin-ball game.
My suggestion is very obvious but, there it goes: if you can't do it alone, get some friends to help you. It's easier and it's more fun than solo. My healer is the worst soloer you could imagine, lol. He has no DPS skill but celestial conduit, which is actually a healing skill more than an actual DPS skill. Still, he has beaten every boss in game so many times that I think next time I am paying a visit to Therakiel he'll just give me the wings already and beg for mercy, lol. Hell, it's a multiplayer game isn't it? Just take advantage of that.
I can also understand that you are struggling if you are only lvl 14. You are missing skills that would defo help you winning this fight. Maybe your build is not ready for the challenge yet and you need to go back later on when you have some extra skills. I guess you understand that scaling these APs to any level and any build, plus any team size is not an easy task to do at all.
I`d argue that the problem isn`t that not every build can make it through the adventure on solo, but that certain fights aren`t properly scaled. See the unskippable, undeactivable Overseer on the Jet section, Oubliette and Lapis Lazuli (mostly because they run off to die against the Overseers), and ranged characters vs Endbringer.
You're right Kaska. As a professional coder myself, I know exactly how hard it is to cater a product to all eventualities and needs, especially under business pressures and in a small team. I was just making a point about the scalability engine and I certainly don't expect miracles from the team
You're also right about grouping. Personally though, I tend not to group much as I no longer have the ability to play for extended / known lengths of time, which can make a game session a bit of a pain for everyone else if you're constantly dropping out. The Resistence session was an unexpected 4 hours+ of game play, hence I started it solo not knowing when I would have to leave it and managed to get to the end. That's why I was annoyed when I found I couldn't finish it solo at 14
Apart from the end game though, I do have to hand it to the team on this AP. The rest of it had tough parts, but were scaled and balanced from a solo melee if you thought about it enough and maybe had a bit of luck as well, hehehe
I am going to re-visit Resistence at a later level (currently lvl 21 after a bit more unexpected game time :eek:)
I`d argue that the problem isn`t that not every build can make it through the adventure on solo, but that certain fights aren`t properly scaled. See the unskippable, undeactivable Overseer on the Jet section, Oubliette and Lapis Lazuli (mostly because they run off to die against the Overseers), and ranged characters vs Endbringer.
The unskippable undeactivatable Overseer is currently skippable. (well, due to a bug, but then, the unskippable undeactivatable overseer is likely in itself a bug too).
Oubliette and Lapiz suiciding on mega destroids is likely a bug based on the destroid spawns being a few seconds too slow. If you use anything to distract the mega-destroids so that they don't target the two bosses straight off the bat (like say, placing pets right in front of the first three overseers from the left) (i've never tested with less, like just a pet on the leftmose cause you can leave the AA alive for the other two overseers to target, since I wanted to be sure Lapiz and co will run into bunker) the two bosses will run into the bunker properly. Unfortunately this of course means that you need to be in a team so that someone will catch the two bosses in the bunker. (I think that the pet leashing distance is just far enough to have them follow before you can get to the console)
On hindsight, another potential trick, if you manage to pull it off, is to somehow activate the consoles without killing all the mobs around. This of course requires you to have pets/aggro drop and stealth/shields, and be very careful with who you kill.
Just a note, there is 1 cutscene that can be skipped. (the one where Gritz talk about the mayhem mission) No idea why though.
Simple : it's a flyover cutscene, your character or the NPCs don't move or don't interact in a way that causes a change in your progress, the rest has your character/Griz/other NPCs interacting, like running away from the destroids and ending up in another tunnel.
Also, they made them so you (most of the time) only see your character being at the right location/doing stuff not your allies, so a script is running meanwhile, allowing you to progress. I guess that if you could skip the cutscene, something would break in the code, making progress impossible.
On hindsight, another potential trick, if you manage to pull it off, is to somehow activate the consoles without killing all the mobs around. This of course requires you to have pets/aggro drop and stealth/shields, and be very careful with who you kill
I had thought of that and pulled it off with a Light Speed character. Mobs don`t notice you if you are at top speed. Teleporters and tunnelers would have it easy too. The problem is that sometimes the mobs wander too close to the consoles and you have to either wait for them to move somewhere else or kill them.
I had thought of that and pulled it off with a Light Speed character. Mobs don`t notice you if you are at top speed. Teleporters and tunnelers would have it easy too. The problem is that sometimes the mobs wander too close to the consoles and you have to either wait for them to move somewhere else or kill them.
Which is why you need pets or shield. Pets tank for you, shields absorb the damage interrupt.
Simple : it's a flyover cutscene, your character or the NPCs don't move or don't interact in a way that causes a change in your progress, the rest has your character/Griz/other NPCs interacting, like running away from the destroids and ending up in another tunnel.
Also, they made them so you (most of the time) only see your character being at the right location/doing stuff not your allies, so a script is running meanwhile, allowing you to progress. I guess that if you could skip the cutscene, something would break in the code, making progress impossible.
Actually, a lot of the cutscenes is just speech. For example, Arcana just talks to you, Psimon just talks with gal (You can see they pre-disabled the mobs at the very start of the cutscene) (for that matter, they should fix this cutscene so Psimon disables the mobs AFTER the speech), Gritz talking about the water level rising (when they already have the tech to do that outside cutscene), and etc. Many of the cutscenes are just to force you to focus on a character. Which is exactly what should happen during that flyover cutscene.
EDIT: need to stop bad habit of replying to people in different consecutive posts.
I know a dev mentioned something about certain cutscenes moving mobs around, setting up objects and such, but how about having us be able to skip them insomuch as you mute the audio, fade to black, do whatever is needed in fast-forward or by teleporting the mobs/objects where you need them, then bringing us back in...
I thought he just fell to the ground for a few minutes and recovered.
That's only after that section it seems. It's extremely unlikely for him to fall at that point for that matter; you practically need all the high level mobs focusing on him.
That's weird, if you're talking about the "defend the civvies" part, he does can fall but regens like in all of the other parts of the AP.
I know it, because once, all the enemies kept hitting him even when downed, so they ignored me and kept preventing him from getting back on his feet.:D
Either it's a bug introduced by the last patch or you're very unlucky and got a random bug.
That's weird, if you're talking about the "defend the civvies" part, he does can fall but regens like in all of the other parts of the AP.
I know it, because once, all the enemies kept hitting him even when downed, so they ignored me and kept preventing him from getting back on his feet.:D
Either it's a bug introduced by the last patch or you're very unlucky and got a random bug.
Not defend the civvies, it's much earlier. Before the beacon, and just after you go through the portal.
Why does it seem as if every adventure pack has a lockout in final fights?
HEY DEVS LOCKOUTS AREN'T FUN !!!!! nothing I like better than standing outside guessing how the battle rages on inside ... it kind of defeats the purpose of going through the whole mission and then being robbed of the final fight.... because we make a teeny tiny mistake and get killed.
Why does it seem as if every adventure pack has a lockout in final fights?
HEY DEVS LOCKOUTS AREN'T FUN !!!!! nothing I like better than standing outside guessing how the battle rages on inside ... it kind of defeats the purpose of going through the whole mission and then being robbed of the final fight.... because we make a teeny tiny mistake and get killed.
Then don't make mistakes and don't die, simple as.
Nothing more disappointing than a zergueable fight that a monkey on morphine could do anyway by simply running in over and over and over.
Zergueable fights mean zero challenge fights, which means zero fun.
Comments
I assume you are on the first part? I'm not sure why you are taking so much damage through the rings, if assuming you have reasonable defences. (If you are on the second, the summoned rings has a significant startup time, starting with a crystal falling, then the rift forms, and only then the damage starts. When you see a crystal fall anywhere near you, RUN IMMEDIATELY.) What is your build and passive, and have you kept your upgrades up to date?
I don't know about your ranged guys, but for me I generally keep my travel power active at all times so I can escape faster; I rarely get hit more than twice. Granted I am also using both AoRP and IDF, but I also have practically no con (only 23 total from misc minor upgrade extra bonuses and base value)
Maybe, but it's a little known fact (far as I can gather) that aggro is also scaled via distance, so to get Black to focus on you faster, sticking close is about the only way I can do so (and possibly changing stance to balanced/protector so you can cause more aggro faster). Regardless, I've had success only if I am at melee range. (using energy builder at melee range seems to hold aggro better than using minigun at longer distances)
The characters range from L21-L26, and have varying powers. However, I tend to build tanks with either Defiance or Invulnerability. In all cases, my defenses are maximized, and my enhancements are up to date. In other words, my characters are about as tough as I can make them.
The problem isn't just that the rings do a ton of damage you can't escape once you're hit. As you point out, there's a bit of a delay. However, as a melee character, you're of NO use standing on the edge of the battle because you can't approach a foe surrounded by these black rings.
Here's a foe with 1000 times my health, he's immune to knocks, stuns and other controls, has an endless barrage of AOE powers that prevent melee characters from approaching for more than two or three seconds at a time, and he both regenerates and heals constantly.
It's a bad character design. He's tough enough already, they didn't need to make him unapproachable.
I think the problem is that both DD and End moves around too much; you'll only notice him using that AoE in melee range only if he's targetting someone in melee range (the ground pound should be normal blockable/survivable with decent defences)... which is very frequent if DD is also in melee range. It would solve a lot of issues if they just root DD and End in place. (including End aggroing on the medics, End running outside battle range, End running ourside SD AoE stun after shield depletion range..)
http://www.champions-online.com/resistance
There's a perk called 'Daikaiju: Defeat Shadow Destroyer without piloting a Mega-Destroid'.
Was it the intention that you should be able to pilot a Mega Destroid to take him out? If so, that doesn't work as the conversation you have with the tech guy next to them just fizzles out second time around. That was one of the first things I tried when I found that it was impossible to solo.
No. It means that you've to somehow take down the pillars without piloting a Mega-Destroid. Also, the perk is bugged the last time someone tried it.
Well, I have completed it on elite every single time I have gone there on first try.
So, I can't see what's badly designed. Maybe you are just using wrong tactics or setups.
Well, I go there with a tank and a healer, the healer beeing me most often. Yeah, I know, the holy trinity, and blabiddyblah. But it works.Are you bringinh those?
Finally, I love that you can't run in and zerg it. You can do that in far too many bosses in this game, and it ruins all the fight. If it was up to me, (I know it isn't), every single boss in game would be like that. If you die and release, you are out of the fight until what¡'s left of your team wins or looses for good.
If I have to complain about anything, the AOE range on the destroids are maybe a bit out of hand but well, learn to block on time.
Other than that, in my opinion the best AP so far.
Are you really having fun with a fight like that? I mean it.. really, where is the fun if you know the outcome of the fight even before you start, when you can just zerg it with zero tactics whatsoever?
The black rings do too much damage and are too difficult to escape from. They effective take melee characters out of the fight if SD stands in them, which is usually the case.
That means the fight depends on ranged characters, who tend to die the first time he targets them.
Difficult is fine. Frustrating isn't. You can't force out an entire class of character (melee) in any enemy design, especially a boss. It's a bad design.
Here's what I learned from playing the REAL Champions, back in the day.
The enemies books made foes like we see in this game. They had astronomical defenses and vastly overpowered attacks. Often, TWICE as powerful as the players could be. This meant the players couldn't hurt the enemies, and they couldn't survive the attacks.
Thus, what I discovered I had to do was increase the health of the villains, while keeping their defenses and attacks roughly on par with the heroes. Thus, if the heroes were doing 12d6 damage, the villain should be doing 12-15d6. If the heroes have around 30pd, the villain should be around that too. It was STUN (Health) where the villain had to be superior, so he could survive the heroes attacks long enough to make him a threat.
Of course, I could give the villain some kind of special story-bound thing that would boost his abilities, but then the point of the battle is to allow some of the group to distract him while the rest deactivates his power booster. In a straight fight, though, you have to make the villain accessible, or he's no fun to fight.
Consider Grond.
Right now, he has so much health it's basically futile for anyone to fight him. Worse, he does so much damage, it's more or less impossible for anyone to fight him (at-level). He jumps in, oneshots you and you can't hurt him. Standing around blocking until he goes away isn't very heroic and not much fun.
THey SHOULD have made his attacks roughly 1.5 times as strong as the typical hero attacks (ie if the average hero at L26 does around 500 damage, Grond should be doing 750 - not 3000). His defenses should be roughly the same as a hero at that level, plus a bit more. His health would make him tough enough to need a team for, but he would still be possible to fight (though probably not defeat).
The AoE range is 100 feet. (or maybe 120, but around there). It's basically similar to the Mega D at MC, though with less hp, and summons an overseer reinforcement instead of useless cannon fodder troops. Speaking of twhich, you can probably practice at the Mega D at MC.
Also, tanks aren't exactly crucial to this pack, frankly, though healers and/or self-sufficient DPS makes the pack go much faster. (the only boss which may justify a tank, is squishy enough to be zerged in a minute. (that's for all 3 parts of her battle)
I heartily endorse this product and/or service!
...never make us use a disguise again.
I didn't mind it, but I would have liked an alternative. I mean, my Thunder God character single handedly brought down a Mega-Destroid, but he's going to surrender to a bunch of thugs with sticks? Really, he's not supposed to be subtle. I said to the other team members (in character, I like to RP a little at least), "I am the God of Thunder, it is not my way to skulk in the shadows like a common thief."
I wanted to bash their heads, not sneak around. Both options should have been possible.
Absolutely yes.
I honestly will probably never run resistance again because of this.
Does he really die?
If so...have him be killed by an enemy...don't make him commit suicide.
It's ridiculous...when you have players on your team that could just shoot the damn thing.
Every single time I fought the end boss we had melee chars in team engaging him directly. Still, fight done on elite on first try. Always.
Melee fighters are not out of he fight. at least they never are in my teams.
And by the way, my tank is a ranged tank. Yes, ranged. Yes, tank. Trust me he is HARD to kill. If the ranged players you play with go for glass cannon builds with low survivability don't expect to win the fight without a healer.
So, you go there without tank, without healer, with unbalanced glass cannon players and then you complain you can't win the fight?
Sorry, but I still disagree. The end boss is perfectly balanced. He was getting beaten on elite already the very same day it was released, and it was pugs doing that, not any advanced uberleet SG.
With all respects, (and I am not trying to talk down to anybody or anything like that, don't get me wrong) you are just using wrong tactics or wrong builds or maybe both. Try to work out what you are doing wrong before asking for a boss-nerf.
Agreed. You should have the option to just go and smash them. We are superheros, cmon, we fight giant bots, demons, demi-gods, supervillains, radiactive dinosaurs, king-kongs on fire, aliens, mutants, undeads... a bunch of thugs and some guards shouldnt scare us so much that we need to disguise.
I managed to get it with a team of 3. It's long, it's annoying, you die again and again and again and again and again and again and again until the anchors are destroyed and you only get a perk and no other reward for that BUT it works.
Actually, the description isn't precise enough. You have to enter a Mega-Destroid once and immediately leave it to make the objectives appear and make the anchors vulnerable. If you sneak around without entering and leaving a Mega-D, the anchors will be invulnerable no matter how hard you hit.
So basically, the devs made efforts to create 1 area in the whole game where you have to sneak around doing sabotaging stuff to change from the "kill everything that moves for XP!" and that is a very welcome change of pace that fits the resistance theme of the AP, and they allowed us to kill every single enemy in this area without them warning the whole prison they've been breached, except for the guardbots and there are still people complaining?
You know you can rush this whole area by knocking heads around in the 2 cell blocks, you just only have to disable the guardbots if you can't wait a few seconds to avoid the 2-3 patrolling ones, right?
*No, he's tougher than that, and shows back up at the end. Though I'm kind of baffled why everyone is taking this so seriously, it's just supposed to be a funny moment. OF COURSE you could shoot it, but that's not the way The Griz thinks!*
*Alright, that's good to hear.
I'm not thinking it's bad or anything...it's an epic cutscene...it's just that there is no need for the suicide.
However...now that I know he lives...it makes it even more epic...if that's possible.
BTW, because of that scene, really the part juuuuussst before it, where Griz quotes/paraphrases a certain favorite movie of mine, you guys made my day. I was a fan before, but man. And of course it made me feel just a wee bit old since I saw that movie in the theaters.
Quote below in Spoiler-Free zone.
The movie was Wizards (IMDB it!) and the actual quote (not Griz's) was: Fritz! Fritz, get up for God's sake! Get up! They've killed Fritz! They've killed Fritz! Those lousy stinking yellow fairies! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin! Those despicable animal warmongers! They've killed Fritz! Take that! Take this! Take that, you green slime! You black hearted, short, bow-legged...
Actually, you can also defeat the guardbots if you can do so before they properly detect you. Went with a team last night which two of our members tried to do so with every guardbot; Got caught a few times, but they disabled over half of them.
Trying to kite (acrobatics T2) and draw a few at a time with the overseers didn't seem to work either; they would follow a short way, but then run back on to the pad. You basically have to fight them on the pad. help would be appreciated. I can put my build up if needed. He is basically a freeform abyssal build. (so I can have healing bots, masterful dodge, bountiful chi, etc).
One other question on tactics: Has anyone tried taking out the Destroid Overseer console using teleport or tunneling to get to it undetected? Or intentionally dying next to the console, and using rebirth to spawn next to it and behind the overseer? I may try the last; but it is the only one I can test with my favorite character.
Sorry, but I didn't really make my point as I was a bit angry
What I should have pointed out was that the AP is supposed to be scalable, both on level and whether solo or in a group. The official Resistence page states :-
The missions and adversaries encountered in Resistance will adjust to your level. All Champions Online Adventure Packs utilize a scaling technology that allows you to play Resistance missions starting at level 11 and up to level 40, either solo or with groups of up to 5 players.
I ran this as a solo melee at level 14. At this level, you don't even have access to any of the higher level skills which make your toon more survivable in such dangerous environments. Remember, not all of us are lvl 40 and have as much uber kit as we can lay our hands on, or even have the time to experiment with various builds. Some of us, myself included, are currently low level and play the game as and when RL lets us. We also like to 'theme' our skill set to our liking, which, as long as it doesn't result in an unplayable toon in normal play, we stick with because we like the look and / or feel. These builds may not be the most effective in the world, but it's a fantasy game that we play for enjoyment, not in order to get the most powerfull superbeing in game.
My point is, that the AP doesn't scale as it should, as it doesn't seem to take into account any of the above. I agree that the bosses should not just be nerfed to allow anyone to do it easily, but I do feel that the scaling engine that is used should try and take (at least some of) the above into account.
The rest of the AP had some very hard parts which had me pulling my hair out at some points, but were at least ultimately do-able in the end with the correct tactics, and this greatly added to my enjoyment. Right up to the end boss, which as of level 14, I had the survivability of a soap bubble in a supernova
I understand now. Well, I have not tried it solo, so all, my comments are suddenly invalid now. XD
Scaling does still have some room for improvement, agreed. I ve come to the conclussion that APs are easiest with 3 players. Less players tend to make it slow and more players tend to turn some fights into a knock-back mess where you keep bouncing from place to place as if you were a ball in some kind of evil pin-ball game.
My suggestion is very obvious but, there it goes: if you can't do it alone, get some friends to help you. It's easier and it's more fun than solo. My healer is the worst soloer you could imagine, lol. He has no DPS skill but celestial conduit, which is actually a healing skill more than an actual DPS skill. Still, he has beaten every boss in game so many times that I think next time I am paying a visit to Therakiel he'll just give me the wings already and beg for mercy, lol. Hell, it's a multiplayer game isn't it? Just take advantage of that.
I can also understand that you are struggling if you are only lvl 14. You are missing skills that would defo help you winning this fight. Maybe your build is not ready for the challenge yet and you need to go back later on when you have some extra skills. I guess you understand that scaling these APs to any level and any build, plus any team size is not an easy task to do at all.
You're also right about grouping. Personally though, I tend not to group much as I no longer have the ability to play for extended / known lengths of time, which can make a game session a bit of a pain for everyone else if you're constantly dropping out. The Resistence session was an unexpected 4 hours+ of game play, hence I started it solo not knowing when I would have to leave it and managed to get to the end. That's why I was annoyed when I found I couldn't finish it solo at 14
Apart from the end game though, I do have to hand it to the team on this AP. The rest of it had tough parts, but were scaled and balanced from a solo melee if you thought about it enough and maybe had a bit of luck as well, hehehe
I am going to re-visit Resistence at a later level (currently lvl 21 after a bit more unexpected game time :eek:)
Watch this space for updates
Just a note, there is 1 cutscene that can be skipped. (the one where Gritz talk about the mayhem mission) No idea why though.
The unskippable undeactivatable Overseer is currently skippable. (well, due to a bug, but then, the unskippable undeactivatable overseer is likely in itself a bug too).
Oubliette and Lapiz suiciding on mega destroids is likely a bug based on the destroid spawns being a few seconds too slow. If you use anything to distract the mega-destroids so that they don't target the two bosses straight off the bat (like say, placing pets right in front of the first three overseers from the left) (i've never tested with less, like just a pet on the leftmose cause you can leave the AA alive for the other two overseers to target, since I wanted to be sure Lapiz and co will run into bunker) the two bosses will run into the bunker properly. Unfortunately this of course means that you need to be in a team so that someone will catch the two bosses in the bunker. (I think that the pet leashing distance is just far enough to have them follow before you can get to the console)
On hindsight, another potential trick, if you manage to pull it off, is to somehow activate the consoles without killing all the mobs around. This of course requires you to have pets/aggro drop and stealth/shields, and be very careful with who you kill.
Simple : it's a flyover cutscene, your character or the NPCs don't move or don't interact in a way that causes a change in your progress, the rest has your character/Griz/other NPCs interacting, like running away from the destroids and ending up in another tunnel.
Also, they made them so you (most of the time) only see your character being at the right location/doing stuff not your allies, so a script is running meanwhile, allowing you to progress. I guess that if you could skip the cutscene, something would break in the code, making progress impossible.
I had thought of that and pulled it off with a Light Speed character. Mobs don`t notice you if you are at top speed. Teleporters and tunnelers would have it easy too. The problem is that sometimes the mobs wander too close to the consoles and you have to either wait for them to move somewhere else or kill them.
Which is why you need pets or shield. Pets tank for you, shields absorb the damage interrupt.
Actually, a lot of the cutscenes is just speech. For example, Arcana just talks to you, Psimon just talks with gal (You can see they pre-disabled the mobs at the very start of the cutscene) (for that matter, they should fix this cutscene so Psimon disables the mobs AFTER the speech), Gritz talking about the water level rising (when they already have the tech to do that outside cutscene), and etc. Many of the cutscenes are just to force you to focus on a character. Which is exactly what should happen during that flyover cutscene.
EDIT: need to stop bad habit of replying to people in different consecutive posts.
I thought he just fell to the ground for a few minutes and recovered.
That's only after that section it seems. It's extremely unlikely for him to fall at that point for that matter; you practically need all the high level mobs focusing on him.
I know it, because once, all the enemies kept hitting him even when downed, so they ignored me and kept preventing him from getting back on his feet.:D
Either it's a bug introduced by the last patch or you're very unlucky and got a random bug.
Not defend the civvies, it's much earlier. Before the beacon, and just after you go through the portal.
So Inside the Conquers' HQ, then.
Nice catch! Or, way to break my mission.
Should be fixed in the next patch.
HEY DEVS LOCKOUTS AREN'T FUN !!!!! nothing I like better than standing outside guessing how the battle rages on inside ... it kind of defeats the purpose of going through the whole mission and then being robbed of the final fight.... because we make a teeny tiny mistake and get killed.
Other than that the AP is proving pretty fun
Then don't make mistakes and don't die, simple as.
Nothing more disappointing than a zergueable fight that a monkey on morphine could do anyway by simply running in over and over and over.
Zergueable fights mean zero challenge fights, which means zero fun.