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Gadgeteering - 2/2/11

Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
edited March 2011 in PTS - The Archive
EDIT - Archiving this thread as it now has lots of old data discussing changes that already went Live.

Post your feedback on the Gadgeteering framework here!
Post edited by Archived Post on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'd hesitate to even call gadgeteering a powerset at this point. Its more accurately an underdeveloped framework squished into a single powerset with lackluster results. I think its core problems are as follows:

    1.) Gadgetry no longer has any AoE capability whatsoever. Lacking for the punch that ONH once gave sonic blaster, any gadgeteer foolish enough to take this advantage now will be swarmed and killed long before the absurd cooldowns on his only viable attacks refresh. 'Fixing' OnH has done everything possible to castrate this powerset, and made it only really viable as a cherry picking set.

    2.) Nanobot Swarm is a support ability, masquerading as a toggle. Its fairly worthless without a viable MSA to bolster, and MSA's removal as a passive pretty much renders it pointless. It should be retooled as an AoE support ability, maybe with a special advantage to take away status effects.

    3.) Molecular Self Assembly...Is just as bad as a secondary energy unlock as a passive, its only saving grace being that its less of a waste of space now than it was before. It should be credibly improved.

    4.) Particle Mine. Why? Just....Why? Its damage is worthless at this point, made worse by the fact that it sits there and doesn't do anything. It needs a major damage and associate energy cost buff. It should be an alpha strike, not a nuisence weapon.

    5.) This powerset still lacks a viable support passive, and a viable heal. It needs both to be useful as a support powerset. Something akin to the aura powers of sorcery, but with a tech theme would be nice....and any sort of heal that actually uses a tech source would be much appreciated. Maybe a medpack?

    6.) I'm a mad scientist with an experimental blaster that I designed...that acts and looks just like every other experimental blaster in the game? Some more models and maybe even special advantages to change the performance of the blaster would be nice. I'd love advantages to raise any of the current special effects.

    This is really just addressing the biggest issues with this set...they won't actually fix the problems I mentioned. This set has no real central theme to it, and thats evident in the slapdash way that this powerset is thrown together. To my mind the pets aspect should be split off into a robotics set with various pet powers, and the gadgetry aspect should be expanded to include more toys like the glue gun from viper and various other fun gadgets.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Gadgeteering needs more gadgets.

    I wonder if Black Talon's new hold power could be made available to players in this framework. I could see a high tech version of the Punji Stick Trap, too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'd hesitate to even call gadgeteering a powerset at this point. Its more accurately an underdeveloped framework squished into a single powerset with lackluster results. I think its core problems are as follows:

    1.) Gadgetry no longer has any AoE capability whatsoever. Lacking for the punch that ONH once gave sonic blaster, any gadgeteer foolish enough to take this advantage now will be swarmed and killed long before the absurd cooldowns on his only viable attacks refresh. 'Fixing' OnH has done everything possible to castrate this powerset, and made it only really viable as a cherry picking set.

    2.) Nanobot Swarm is a support ability, masquerading as a toggle. Its fairly worthless without a viable MSA to bolster, and MSA's removal as a passive pretty much renders it pointless. It should be retooled as an AoE support ability, maybe with a special advantage to take away status effects.

    3.) Molecular Self Assembly...Is just as bad as a secondary energy unlock as a passive, its only saving grace being that its less of a waste of space now than it was before. It should be credibly improved.

    4.) Particle Mine. Why? Just....Why? Its damage is worthless at this point, made worse by the fact that it sits there and doesn't do anything. It needs a major damage and associate energy cost buff. It should be an alpha strike, not a nuisence weapon.

    5.) This powerset still lacks a viable support passive, and a viable heal. It needs both to be useful as a support powerset. Something akin to the aura powers of sorcery, but with a tech theme would be nice....and any sort of heal that actually uses a tech source would be much appreciated. Maybe a medpack?

    6.) I'm a mad scientist with an experimental blaster that I designed...that acts and looks just like every other experimental blaster in the game? Some more models and maybe even special advantages to change the performance of the blaster would be nice. I'd love advantages to raise any of the current special effects.

    This is really just addressing the biggest issues with this set...they won't actually fix the problems I mentioned. This set has no real central theme to it, and thats evident in the slapdash way that this powerset is thrown together. To my mind the pets aspect should be split off into a robotics set with various pet powers, and the gadgetry aspect should be expanded to include more toys like the glue gun from viper and various other fun gadgets.

    Um isn't chainsaw in gagettering?

    I can get that to do stupid amounts of damage and it's an AoE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Besides, ONH didn't ruin the Gadgeteering set completely. Just that part of it. There is more than one way to play Gadgeteering.

    I didn't exactly use it much, so I can't say anything about how great the damage was before, but I hardly ever use more than one ONH power anyway, and when I do I don't rely on them for damage.

    But then again, I've already proved to be a tad weird when it comes to building.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011

    3.) Molecular Self Assembly...Is just as bad as a secondary energy unlock as a passive, its only saving grace being that its less of a waste of space now than it was before. It should be credibly improved.

    Please give MSA some love. Its under-performing by any standard.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Besides, ONH didn't ruin the Gadgeteering set completely. Just that part of it. There is more than one way to play Gadgeteering.

    The only thing it didn't hurt were botmasters. And the Ray-Gun Fighter is dead and gone.

    Your only recourse without relying on pets now is gauntlet chainsaw. Which is unique from an overall melee standpoint (as it is the only melee maintain), but the actual Gadgeteering set has next to no synergy with it. The ONH powers won't proc off of it, the self buffs don't interact with it because it doesn't have a cooldown, and the pets don't exploit the power in any way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I feel Chainsaw, the pets, and to a large degree orbital cannon are good powers...which people take to the exclusion of the rest of the set. I don't have a real problem with any of them....I just want the rest of the set to be as viable to the player as something besides a cherry picking resource.

    The point of a gadgeteer powerset shouldn't be picking up your favorite gadgets, it should be building a strong gadgeteer character, which is something you haven't been able to do since launch. Even the gadgeteer nemesis has to dip into another powerset to be viable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I use a Ray-Gun fighter, I think that Death Ray lowering from a 2-point to 1-point advantage did a whole lot for damage on my build. Don't get me wrong, I want Gadgeteering to be better, I really do, but it's in no way destroyed. Maybe worse, but not destroyed.

    I think that if Gadgets get a good Passive and a viable block it will be possible to build a good build purely from Gadgeteering. I'm by no means a number cruncher, so I'm sure any passive/block I would come up with would come out short, but there should be a way, at least I think so.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I actually like particle mine. A nice trap for ranged players fighting melee mobs. Add in around 2000 damage with the explosion, or a BIG knockback. Set it down, then attack. If they get too close. KABLAM! They're sent flying.

    Or even better. Rush into a big mob of badguys, set it down then run away. It makes for some great fun.

    Only thing I don't like is that I can't set down multiple mines at once. ;)
    Which is unique from an overall melee standpoint (as it is the only melee maintain),

    Eye of the Strom and Sword Cyclone are also melee maintains.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Your only recourse without relying on pets now is gauntlet chainsaw. Which is unique from an overall melee standpoint (as it is the only melee maintain),

    Sword Cyclone, Eye of the Storm, Ego Blade Frenzy. But back on topic. Gadgets needs some love. I'm working on a few suggestions, probably have them up by tomorrow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    WillBlack wrote:
    Sword Cyclone, Eye of the Storm, Ego Blade Frenzy. But back on topic. Gadgets needs some love. I'm working on a few suggestions, probably have them up by tomorrow.

    Well that will teach me to post in the middle of the night.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I really like Particle Mine and Tractor Beam, though Tractor Beam could maybe be a little stronger pull.
    Like many, I did not understand the point to the Sonic Device and Toxic Nanites nerf. A lot of players were using those powers, but like Masterful Dodge they fit a lot of concepts.

    Suggestions for new powers:

    More ray gun options. I don't care if there's overlap with Munitions. Maybe something that fires a little robo grenade with different damage options, maybe even a random effect. Re-use the tick from WTK for fun. Some sort of maintain ray gun would be nice as well.

    Radar active offense, would have the normal damage boost plus a major perception buff.

    Some sigils equivalent. A sort of laser-tripped trap - little floating particle damage dealers or something like that. I'd have them exclusive with sigils though.

    Something that could launch you in the air like Rocket Jump, then pop a parachute to float down like post-teleport. It could perhaps give a nice energy boost to set up Orbital Cannon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Im still blown away but the dirt nerf to mini-drive. Its is my favorite power in the entire game and wasn't even close to needing this change. Ive been using this from the beginning and its a major part of how I like to play.

    Sonic and Imbue having a shared cooldown with each other was a alright idea because they both have some nasty combos, even nanites had some interesting builds, but mini-drive? There are a slew of powers that do what each of the ONH powers already do and do so without a cooldown. For anyone who used nanites they can just move onto Hex and ignore it.

    I am currently unsubbed for the sole reson of this change. It is really bad. Most of the intelligent playbase has said its dumb and wrong yet it was pushed on through.

    There are alot of great changes taking place but this isn't one of them and it is detrimental. It need to reverted back to what it was before the F2P patch
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Before F2P, Gadgetry was the king of Massive AOE damage, completely capable of doing 40K-50K damage in a single salvo. It was never really a support set at all. But now with the advent change to ONH powers, it's extremely underwhelming and very clearly the weakest Framework. in Beta, it was conceptualized as a "Support DPS" Powerset. Now it's just a cherry-pickers powerset where every power is just supbar to every other power in the game. Now what is it?

    I don't mean to sound crass but do you guys (the Devs) even know what you want to do with this framework? How you want it to act and perform as a framework on it's own? I would seriously sit down and come tp a consensus "What is it we are trying to accomplish with this framework?"

    For it to be a Support Set is the following:
    • A Support Passive that buffs Healing and Technology / Pet Damage
    • A HEAL. Personally, I think Gadgets as it stands, is prime real estate for planting a (Pb)AOE or Targetted AOE Heal. And I know what you're goingto say Will is "Arcane Vitality is a Cone, which is a Targeted AOE" and probably somethine else to the effect of Conduit/Rebuke and Illumination. What I'm talking here is Targeted AOE like Rocket Launcher! something that light perform like Celestial Conduit or Psionic Healing at a range, but tick for less, but over a 10-20 -foot radius. This would definately support the "Pet Mastermind" concept it seems they are trying to go most for with Gadgeteering
    • An AOE or Multiple AOEs. When you guys took out the ability of ONH Powers to be able to be used on AOEs, you guys took out all low-to-mid level capabilities for Gadgets to have a good AOE. Now, I Understand that it had to be done because of things like Pyre/ Lead Tempest R3 + Sonic Device R3 + Toxic Nanites R3 was extremely overpowered, infact I was a regular abuser myself! But in the wake of the rebalancing of ONH Powers, you haven't given back Gagdetry anything even so much as a viable AOE or Cone.

    Gadetrry needs more utility Powers like Tractor Beam. Stuff like..
    • Goop Gun! (AOE snare)
    • Freeze Ray! (Paralyzes)
    • Hypno-Ray! ( Cone Sleep )
    • Tranq Gun (Single Target 2.0 magnitude Sleep. Something that works on Minions and VIllains and maybe Enforcers)
    • Nuerolizer! (Confuse)
    • MiB Flashy thingy ( Placate / Aggro Dump )
    • 'the Flicker"! (Low Damage, High Knockback attack)
    • Blaster Rifles/ Pistols! ( PArticle Damage Steady shot / Assault Rifle)
    • Deathrays! (Particle Damage Minigun)
    • Bullet Bees! (Would act like Ball Lighting w/ Triplicity)
    • X-Ray Goggles (a Power/ Toggle that grants Stealth Sight)!
    • Super Soldier Serum! ( Temporary +Damage, Offense, Damage Resistance, Midigation and HP)
    • Quicksilver Serum! (Grants Dodge, Avoidance and Dex. Quicksilver and Super Soldier Serum put the other on cooldown)
    • Boom-R-ang! ( Line/Cylinder Stun)
    • Acme Fallout Shelter! (Acts like a Circle, Lowers Threat, Increases Damage Resistance, Lowers Healing)
    • Tachyon Rifle/ Black Hole Gun ( Targetted 20' AOE that teleports all Minions/ Villains to the center of it, does massive damage then deals a roomsweeper-equivelent knockback when it completes)
    • Nanodocs! ( Bountiful Chi Resurgence you can put on someone else)
    • Trauma Patch! (Conviction you can put on someone else)
    • Ablative Armor! ( Provides roughly 500-600 points of Damage Midigation for 5 hits. It's like Bionic Shielding, except grants Damage Ignorance/ Midigation instead of Healing. Like a Minor Unbreakable you can put on someone else)
    • Gravitational Shield ( Block for Gadgetry! Repels enemies when then hit you)
    • EMP Pulse ( AOE: Deals Massive Damage to Robots. -10% Damage Debuff to non-robots)
    • Reality Stabilizer ( AOE: Deals Massive Damage to Supernatural Enemies. -10% Damage Debuff to Non-Supernaturals)
    • the Cry Baby ( Summoned Aggro Dump Pet. The idea behind this is that it's an aggro dump that once summoned, wipes your threat, giving it all to this summoned pet with no attacks)
    • the Fat Kid ( AOE Massive Crushing and Fire Damage initially, leaves Toxic Damage Cloud in attack's area for 15 seconds after attack)


    I mean all you guys need to think is 1950s/1960s Mad Superpsuedoscience! You can afford to get really creative with this set. You can add just so much to it, it's crazy! Gagdetry is something you can really afford to add a new power or two to every single patch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    RynoHound wrote:
    Bullet Bees! (Would act like Ball Lighting w/ Triplicity)
    Ok I chortled.
    X-Ray Goggles (a Power/ Toggle that grants Stealth Sight)!
    Sounds like a new offensive passive that grants a crit bonus to me.
    • Super Soldier Serum! ( Temporary +Damage, Offense, Damage Resistance, Midigation and HP)
    • Quicksilver Serum! (Grants Dodge, Avoidance and Dex.
    Two Active offences? or are these target-able buffs?
    the Fat Kid ( AOE Massive Crushing and Fire Damage initially, leaves Toxic Damage Cloud in attack's area for 15 seconds after attack)
    Not sure if dropping a nuke is a good idea. Especially with that name.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Not sure if dropping a nuke is a good idea. Especially with that name.

    Obviously it's a play on words for the Fat Man in Fallout 3/New Vegas
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Supreme56 wrote:
    Obviously it's a play on words for the Fat Man in Fallout 3/New Vegas

    Not quite, but sorta. Fallout got it from that. Lots of things have made a play on that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    XaoGarrent wrote:
    Not quite, but sorta. Fallout got it from that. Lots of things have made a play on that.

    I was thinking that is what it was referring too.

    Which is also the reason I thought it might not be such a good idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Actually the Fat Man was the code name of the first experimental Atomic Bomb. So it's not something thats copywrited, just noteworthy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011

    Two Active offences? or are these target-able buffs?

    No more like small buffs you can throw on yourself or someone else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I generally have to agree with Lastsonofzod.

    I keep trying to make Gadgeteers... and invariably it fails. Either I end up going Munitiions-heavy; which basically amounts to (yet another) munitions character for me; or I end up quitting the character out of frustration by level 11 or 12.

    Some personal suggestions:

    More Experimental Raygun powers. I feel this is the ultimate weakness of the Gadgeteer set - it has no ''baseline' attack power type. Other than Munitions, every other set in the game focuses on a specific attack type, then branches out into other stuff. I grant you Munitions works; but this is largely because although it has a variety of weapons... ultimately they fulfill important roles and thus the powerset works. (It has some kinks in the system, but it's functional.)

    So - more Raygun attacks; Say... a wide-beam maintain? (Like a big heat-ray?) Or maybe a Raygun energy-builder? Or what about a "bouncy" ray that bounces between targets? Just something that gives you a 'gadgeteer' feel; and yet acts as a functional basic set of attacks one can use without borrowing from other sets.

    Another possibility: What about a series of toggles that affects your attacks? I grant this would be prime cherry-picking territory too*; but if you had the afformentioned raygun abilities, it'd be neat to have a choice between toggling on the Freeze Ray setting, Heat Ray Setting, or Sonic Blast setting, for example. They'd change the damage type and visual of the power a bit - like the heat-ray looking almost like a stream of fire, or the freeze ray having the chill-effect all along it. That kind of thing.

    I'd also like to note: Why can't we use some of the Munitions Pistol models for the Raygun? I mean there are actual lasergun/raygun models IN the munitions pistol arsenal. (You have to unlock them, but they're there!) - You can do this for the Sonic Blaster... so why not the laser?

    I'd personally like to see one or two 'serum' type abilities too. Things that are major buffs for a given target (yourself, or an ally).

    Ex: Super Serum - +25% Damage, +10% resist all for X seconds, where X is based on the rank.

    Or perhaps a similar debuff - Malaise Toxin - -25% Resistance all damage, Toxic DoT (large AoE so as to hit most of a group). (I'm thinking the classic mad-scientist-hucks-a-vial-at-you as the animation.)

    *But I don't see that as a problem. Just because it's popular to cherry pick isn't the issue; the issue is that the set, by itself, doesn't stand up. I feel this would help, even if it would offer more cherrypick choices.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    RynoHound wrote:
    Actually the Fat Man was the code name of the first experimental Atomic Bomb. So it's not something thats copywrited, just noteworthy.

    I just assumed, knowing you RYNO, that's where you got it from.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The big problem with gadgeteering is that it has no good spammable ranged attacks, so you're forced to go out of set for your generic mop stuff up power. It also doesn't have a passive, though that's less of an issue, electric form and targeting computer work fine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I really like Particle Mine and Tractor Beam, though Tractor Beam could maybe be a little stronger pull.

    YES YES YES YES <3 THIS SO MUCH

    Tractoring people into mines? YES PLEASE

    I think that the old Targeting Computer effect (PBAoE energy for everyone) would be great to retool into a passive. The effect was awesome, the 5 second lock-on wasn't. Maybe a light heal too, triggered by something, or giving it a 2-3 second startup instead of 5. Call it... Nanobot Swarm or something... owait :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm new, so feel free to disregard everything I say.

    I have a gadgeteer. He;'s now 17.

    sonic Blaster -- refraction of sound
    exp blaster
    sonic device
    support drones - r3
    muni bots - r2
    orbital cannon - anvil
    bionic shielding

    He feels. Ok. experimental blaster has one good use. hit sonic device, full charge (what seems to take forever), one-shot a henchmen. I have a couple other chars (at 12ish) that can do the same with 1 less power, and with less charge time.

    Experimental blaster competes with orbital cannon for this purpose. I am fine with the cannon ..slowly.. following the mob, but I wish the initial targeting was locked, not just teh area the mob was. So the initial hit would really hit the guy.

    Support drones. They heal mostly. I almost never swap them to the other mode. The heal isn't bad. It keeps me up, most of the time.

    Muni drones. Again, they're ok. When they don't decide to sit around instead of attack. Sometimes they need to be told a couple times togo do something. Turret mode makes them a little better.

    Bionic shielding -- A heal that needs me to be hit in order to heal me. I guess it's ok. Not spectacular.

    Here's the thing. None of it really feels great, or even good. I found myself at early levels using sonic blaster (my end builder, c'mon!) as damage, because it has the cone adv, and aoe is really where it's at.

    He'll probably end up shelved, because he just doesn't feel interesting. Exp blaster turning boss mobs into teddy bears is hilarious at first, but then just annoying since it's a super-blocking teddy bear that reduces every shot to 3 and 4 damage. It's really just uncontrollable crowd control.

    Speaking of crowd control. I find roots to be generally useless, since everything has ranged attacks anyhow. Enmesh should be a hold. Maybe this is useful later? Maybe I'm just not yet to the content where allowing something to close to melee range is instant death, but keeping them rooted at range makes them kittens?

    I'm pretty much going to go out of gadgeteering for the rest of his powers. I can fit force in thematically, and force seems to have some good stuff (prtotection field lacks a heal, but seems superior to bionic in protection. Inertial Dampening Field seems like it would make the pets less squishy.)

    This character mostly duos with someone, which is probably why he still gets play time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    With the team working on an Inventor archetype and this framework likely getting a review because of it, I wanted to remind the power folks of the Argent Counteragents and their shocking taser animation/FX. The Telekinesis framework includes a custom advantage that sets equilibrium to 0 briefly, which could be considered as a core effect for a hero-version of the taser or appear as a custom advantage for such a power.

    Tasers just seem like a natural choice for gadgeteers :D.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    NikeOnline wrote:
    Tasers just seem like a natural choice for gadgeteers :D.
    Presumably a reskin of tazer arrow, if implemented.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Pantagruel wrote:
    Presumably a reskin of tazer arrow, if implemented.

    I want the Argent taser myself. It has its own weapon model and everything allready.

    Really, there are several fun toys I'd like to see from minions ingame that work for a gadgeteer:

    Tartrapper gun
    Tracking Mine
    Argent Tazer
    Argent BFG


    I'll also restate what I said on the Massively thread....the Experimental blaster needs more weapon skins. Take them from SMG, take them from pistols, make new ones....but give us something else to look besides the exact freaking blaster that everyone else allready has. Seriously, I retconned out of the power for that one reason alone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I want the Argent taser myself. It has its own weapon model and everything allready.

    Exactly!
    Really, there are several fun toys I'd like to see from minions ingame that work for a gadgeteer:

    Tartrapper gun
    Tracking Mine
    Argent Tazer
    Argent BFG

    Yes, yes, yes, and... Yes!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I wish the gadgeteer was more mechanical genius instead of disgruntled toy maker.

    Chainsaw gauntlet, web grenade, attack toys, tractor beam, shrink device, Sound and Light gun
    are example of devise a small child would come up with. sure a teddybear with a rocket launcher is funny at first, but when you actually have to use this power daily you want something a little more "less stupid" for lack of a better word.
    I mean really? Did Foxbot's little brother design this frame? I really think the ONLY reason the ping bong gun isnt in here is because foxbat already stole it from him self.
    ——

    please PLEASE! over haul this power set so its something a super inventive super hero would actually use.
    Come to think of it, putting an live RPG into a teddybear is something bad guys would do, not something super heros would do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Gadgeteering has some of the makings of a fun, creative secondary support set. I kind of have this odd hope that the incoming "other" Experimental Blaster has some "If friendly target is selected..." functions, a la Conduit/Rebuke. Rather than simple support functions, you could do some...clever things with it, like:

    X% Chance of putting a force field on the targeted player
    X% Chance of knocking back all foes near the targeted player
    X% Chance of putting a HoT on the player
    X% Chance of [Random Useful Effect]

    When targeting enemies, a whole different slew of nifty offensive functions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    XelNigma wrote:
    I wish the gadgeteer was more mechanical genius instead of disgruntled toy maker.

    That's what power armor is for, a "genius" superhero wouldn't walk around in anything less than a tank ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm not really a fan of depending on a X% chance of something happening, especially when charged attacks get involved. I mean yeah it adds a little chaos to the field, but you can't consistently depend on it when you need it. Controls are useful when you can tactically drop them at precisely the right times to keep the enemy debilitated and to mess up their attack combos. Controls are not too useful when they are haphazardly dropped about randomly determined by a roll of a die. For this reason I really don't like the secondary effects of the experimental blaster considering it's primary effectiveness (or lack thereof).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Experimental Blaster is made to be a spam power with some extra quirks (As proven by Death Ray not proccing on charges longer than 1 sec). I like it for what it is, but it could probably be something more, like a 50-100% chance to do something on a full charge.

    I think a cone power would be very useful for this set. As would a good passive. And the ability to have several mines deployed at a time.

    This set has great grounds to be a great set, and would need pretty little to be very viable IMO. I'm just crossing my fingers that the Inventor Pass doesn't break anything and makes Gadgets a good enough set.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I've been reading a bunch on the various forums about gadgeteering being gutted by the change to ONH. Note, gadgeteering was a tree I chose a power from here or there for concept but never made a dedicated one until this weekend.

    So I made a gadgeteer and used only gadgeteering powers (no ONH's as I generally don't care for them except for Imbue on certain builds for concept). She's now level 20, she died once when I pulled 5 Viper mobs instead of the 3 I was trying to pull. I've never run through content so fast, and being a gadgetter she didn't even have a passive. This is my 26th character, IIRC.

    If this is what is considered gutted I'm kinda glad I didn't see what the set was like as a whole before.

    Sign me up for more gadgets (like I say on multiple threads, more options is always better) and a passive and give the energy unlock a little love, but I'm not seeing what the big fuss was about when the set was supposedly "gutted". I'm also not seeing how a pet heavy set with pets that AOE like crazy can be considered as having no AOE capability...unless people are making petless gadgeteers in a set with 4 "pets" and then decrying the whole set as broken. That's just, well...interesting I'll say.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I've been reading a bunch on the various forums about gadgeteering being gutted by the change to ONH. Note, gadgeteering was a tree I chose a power from here or there for concept but never made a dedicated one until this weekend.

    So I made a gadgeteer and used only gadgeteering powers (no ONH's as I generally don't care for them except for Imbue on certain builds for concept). She's now level 20, she died once when I pulled 5 Viper mobs instead of the 3 I was trying to pull. I've never run through content so fast, and being a gadgetter she didn't even have a passive. This is my 26th character, IIRC.

    If this is what is considered gutted I'm kinda glad I didn't see what the set was like as a whole before.

    Sign me up for more gadgets (like I say on multiple threads, more options is always better) and a passive and give the energy unlock a little love, but I'm not seeing what the big fuss was about when the set was supposedly "gutted". I'm also not seeing how a pet heavy set with pets that AOE like crazy can be considered as having no AOE capability...unless people are making petless gadgeteers in a set with 4 "pets" and then decrying the whole set as broken. That's just, well...interesting I'll say.

    Christ, finally someone who sees Gadgeteering in the light I do.

    The first character I ever made was a pure Gadgeteer. Yes, MSA was a Passive back then, but that's beside the point. I went outside the set once before Level 30-something, and that was for a Block. I also avoided Attack Toys since I didn't want to be too pet-heavy. I had a very easy time levelling up, didn't have an energy unlock at all, and, as said, used purely Gadgeteering powers.

    Now it's my only 40 (You heard right, played since launch and has one 40) and thus I don't have comparison, but it can output some great damage with Orbital Cannon, Munitions Bots, Blaster spam, and the occasional Implosion Engine. Add together that I use the Miniturization Drive and double-stack it for extra damage bonus, and that's all I need. No damaging powers from other sets, the only non-Gadget powers I use are Electric Form, Force Shield and Protection Field.

    I don't want this set to be a cherry-picking set, but I don't think it is, either. It's a very good set to focus on, and it can be great with a good Passive and some kind of reliable AoE.

    P.S. I still use MSA, and I love it. I don't like to rely on a power to get Energy, and MSA gives me Energy from using my damaging powers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    At least gadgeteering will get 2 new powers on pts probably next week.

    Read more about it here: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/02/11/champions-onlines-chris-matz-talks-on-f2p-changes-pvp-and-the/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Heard about that. The cone one sounds exciting.

    And I hope the other one is a Passive. That would make my life.

    Not really. I'm nerdy, but not THAT nerdy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm hopeing for more deployable stuff. Maybe a stand alone turret or maybe a buff/debuff node.
    oh, a large melee bot would be nice. (the archane construct doesnt excactly fit)

    Somthing that looks kinda like this.
    Mastermind_Robotics_AssaultBot.jpg

    Yup, thats the assault bot from CoV. Clearly Co will have to design there own large robot. But you got to admit, the robotic MM had really cool looking bots. While here in CO, we get... teddy bears... *face palm*

    Oh, and gives us a robot skin for the attack toys! (or better yet just rename them somthing like Reploids and make all there skins of robots!)

    I got a really long wish list for the gadget framework. ^.^
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    XelNigma wrote:
    Somthing that looks kinda like this.
    Mastermind_Robotics_AssaultBot.jpg

    YES PLEASE.

    Man, that was the coolest T7 MM pet in the game. The Vanguard ones also looked really awesome, as did Malta robots in general.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Stuff with the 2/15/2011 PTS patch:
    • Bionic Shielding ranks up too well. Rank 1 is 644 healing per tick whereas rank 3 is 1421 healing per tick (348 PRE)
    • Medical Nanites cannot be ranked up and does not heal teammates nor pets. The tooltip also states 0 healing for teammates and pets.
    • Particle Mine is still vastly under performing when compared to Sigils of Arcane Runes.
    • Experimental Burst Ray's random effects are funny but extremely short lived, don't explain what they do, and are of little actual consequence. The Overcharge buff is either negligible or not working.

    I'm also of the opinion that the only ONH attack that need to put all other ONH attacks on cooldown is Imbue. Mini-Drive, Sonic Device and Toxic Nanites could also use a cooldown reduction. None of their effects warrant a 30 second base cooldown in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    XelNigma wrote:
    I'm hopeing for more deployable stuff. Maybe a stand alone turret or maybe a buff/debuff node.
    oh, a large melee bot would be nice. (the archane construct doesnt excactly fit)

    Somthing that looks kinda like this.
    Mastermind_Robotics_AssaultBot.jpg

    Yup, thats the assault bot from CoV. Clearly Co will have to design there own large robot. But you got to admit, the robotic MM had really cool looking bots. While here in CO, we get... teddy bears... *face palm*

    Oh, and gives us a robot skin for the attack toys! (or better yet just rename them somthing like Reploids and make all there skins of robots!)

    I got a really long wish list for the gadget framework. ^.^

    A nice melee tank bot would be really cool for gadgeteering.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Molecular Self Assembly energy return scales very poorly with REC and only procs once every 5 seconds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Falchoin wrote:
    Molecular Self Assembly energy return scales very poorly with REC and only procs once every 5 seconds.

    Please show MSA some love.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Falchoin wrote:
    Stuff with the 2/15/2011 PTS patch:
    • Bionic Shielding ranks up too well. Rank 1 is 644 healing per tick whereas rank 3 is 1421 healing per tick (348 PRE)
    • Medical Nanites cannot be ranked up and does not heal teammates nor pets. The tooltip also states 0 healing for teammates and pets.
    • Particle Mine is still vastly under performing when compared to Sigils of Arcane Runes.
    • Experimental Burst Ray's random effects are funny but extremely short lived, don't explain what they do, and are of little actual consequence. The Overcharge buff is either negligible or not working.

    I'm also of the opinion that the only ONH attack that need to put all other ONH attacks on cooldown is Imbue. Mini-Drive, Sonic Device and Toxic Nanites could also use a cooldown reduction. None of their effects warrant a 30 second base cooldown in my opinion.

    This patch went out missing some things I've already worked on, and more things are coming as well. We will have another patch for the PTS very soon (TM).

    Bionic Shielding, I'll take a look at. That sounds like many.

    Medical Nanites has the additional ranks already (internally) and should be healing teammates as well.

    Many of Experimental Burst Rays "unexplained effects" are largely there for flavor. Some do have minor effects, and they are mentioned in the debuff tooltips. The Overcharge buff is a 10% increase to the base Tap damage of the power. It should be visible in the tooltip as you get additional stacks of the buff. The intent was "get stacks via charging, spam buffed version of the power a few times, Overcharge again to refresh the Overcharge buff, all while hoping it doesn't Overheat."
    Squeee wrote:
    Please show MSA some love.

    We will. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Since the precedent is already set with Resurgence scaling with CON, how about Bionic Shielding scaling with INT or END? It would work MUCH better for the new Inventor AT if nothing else.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Falchoin wrote:
    Since the precedent is already set with Resurgence scaling with CON, how about Bionic Shielding scaling with INT or END? It would work MUCH better for the new Inventor AT if nothing else.

    Besides direct scaling, the best way to emphasize INT is to give it a cooldown - is INT applied to the "15s debuff"?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I think if a stat compromise is to be reached, there needs to be a distinction:

    Healing OTHERS: Presence
    Healing SELF: Um, it seems to vary.

    Regeneration passive is far and away the most relentless self-heal, and it certainly doesn't care about Presence-in-particular. Resurgence is a self heal, it doesn't care about Presence.

    The question is what to do about powers that can be used both as self-heals and heal others.

    People who are using those tools for self-heals while soloing don't care about Presence because presence does essentially NOTHING in solo play.

    Is it practical to have bionic shielding scale with presence when targating allies/others, and use one of the Inventor's fixed superstats (Intelligence and Endurance? Am I remembering right?) when targeting self?

    That would allow solo'ers to continue to ignore Presence just as they would if they picked one of the other self heals, and would continue to make Presence a strong choice for team players.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Besides direct scaling, the best way to emphasize INT is to give it a cooldown - is INT applied to the "15s debuff"?

    No.

    Its a debuff applied to the target. I can't see how they would be able to make a caster INT affect a targeted Debuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm not sure why BS was changed in the manner it was (specifically the power cooldown). The current implementation breaks BS' synergy with Storm's Eye Prana (from Form of the Master). Given that Storm's Eye Prana only works with BS, BCR, and Resurgence, this is kind of a big deal.

    If Conviction was buffed to work with it as well, it'd be a suitable replacement, but right now BS is kind of weaker for characters without high PRE who were using it with dodge builds.
This discussion has been closed.