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Why can't we play as Villains?
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I would like to Play a Villain, why can't we play villains? Is there a possibility that we may be able to in a future expansion?:cool:
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Because this is Champions Online, not Nemesis Online :P
Devs have said it might be doable if they ever do an expansion pack, and I heard one Dev speculaing about the possibility of a PVP map for it (Speculating, not saying they were doing it), but overall you're not going to see this feature any time soon.
Aside from that, I hear some people are having a blast role-playing villains. Novel concept for an MMO"RPG", I know.
If there was a villains expansion there had better be at least one open pvp zone to go with it!
If they do a villians i would much prefer they made it world PvP and used some kind of flag system as i hated the way it was implimented in CoH/CoV
I can't play as a villain because I am too nice of a guy.
-I'm KeystoneMan and I'm helping!
thats probably a very good reason why they didnt do it here.
Its not that people dont like villains its just they like being a hero better.
But they don't want to have to deal with the consequences of the decision.
I ran a LARP for a while, and i saw this mentality all the time.
I also see it in peoples decisions on costumes and the way they play...
...Not to mention the way they treat other players.
They want to act like a villian, but hide behind the saftey of a "Hero" shield/concept.
"Sapphire take him out with your detonation"
"I can't its on cooldown!!!!"
"£$%&, kinetic do something!"
"I can't either, hes just bouncing me up and down"
"Fine I'll do it!......"
"......$%^&£&$&&$&$&$&$&£&£&£&££& son of a $%&£&$$ he has teleport!"
i also have to agree with AoC as far as people liking the "idea" of villainy more than the actual gameplay & consequences thereof.
In the case of CoV, you never could truly realize a "real supervillain". You were always robbing banks or trinkets. In most cases, I felt like an antihero more than a real comic book villain.
I mean, the game is plenty violent already. We "heroes" meet small time crooks with guns and soul-ripping powers... that doesn't sound too heroic in the traditional sense. If anything, I'd like to see some options, with rewards and penalties, to using less than lethal tactics to bring in criminals, and ones for straight brutality.
Regardless, they definitely need to flesh things out a bit more in the existing 1-40 game, before branching off too much.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Thanks.
-I'm KeystoneMan and I'm helping!
I guess that about sums it up...
... ... ...
... ... ...
Alright, I guess that this subject requires a bit more of an explanation. Essentially, it's that whole active / reactive debate all over again.
Heroes as a rule, are arguably more of a reactive force of the universe, whereas most villains are innately more active than their heroic counterparts. While City of Villains has brought much to the table up until now, it has nonetheless proven that villains are counter-intuitive to the very mechanics of a MMORPG.
One of the most common complains about CoX, is that you were always essentially a lackey to either the Freedom Phalanx or Arachnos; which is reflected in the facts that MMORPGs in general, leans on NPCs to dispense quests and deliver some pipes in order for you to advance into the game.
As a hero, a servant of order or the public in general, it's not that big a deal; while you may decide one morning to just get out and beat up bad guys, it is generally easier for you to pull off your weight if you have some sort of contact pointing you toward the various hot spots, where your abilities might be put to good use.
As a villain now, things aren't so simple... Sure, you can play lapdog to Lord Recluse or Dr. Destroyer all you want, but in the end, you are nothing more than a glorified thug. Where typical heroes serves the good interest of the populace, your typical villain ultimately serves himself.
Which makes me believe that perhaps villains lend themselves better to a Sandbox game than to a traditional MMORPG. It would make much more sense to have a city filled with tools and plot devices for my villain to exploit, rather than have him getting bossed all the way through.
See a bank? Alright! I'm gonna rob it! Acquire explosives? Great, I'm gonna blow up City Hall! Find a scroll detailing the location of an ancient deity? Yay! Now to steal its powers for myself... See a bunch of thugs mugging old ladies? Beat them up, you work for ME now! Some idiot hero or policeman is trying to stop you? Are you felling lucky, punk?
See where I'm going with this? Much like the Nemesis Missions right now, your villain should be the star all the way through; which simply wouldn't work given the way that Champions works right now.
Of course, this is sort of a circular argument; since that one way or another, this is a topic on which opinions are as varied as they are numerous.
Still, one has to wonder, does the fact that City of X did it or that DCUO is seemingly going to do it, means that Champions has to do it?
Me, I like what I hear when Cryptic said that IF they were going to make Villains or Dark Champions, it would be something completely different than what we have now; perhaps even be its own separate game.
Champions is kind of its own thing and this is another, I like that.
Players who want to play villains generally want to do their own capers. They want to be able to walk into a bank and rob it, sneak into a secure facility and steal the valuables, assassinate the mayor, hold the city to ransom, or whatever...
BUT
They generally don't want to do it all on the same character. The cat burglar doesn't do wetwork. The criminal mastermind bent on world subjugation does not bother with petty street-level crime.
By contrast, a hero character can generally stop to right any wrong, no matter the scale, without it feeling too 'wrong' to the player.
So building enough PVE content to level to 40 is a completely different proposition to hero content. It's a lot more work, and almost requires a sandbox approach. Then there's the problem of a persistent MMO gameworld: The cost-to benefit ratio of having actions that only a single player in the game can complete pretty much rules out setting up so that any one player can succeed at gameworld-changing actions. Nothing can change too much as a result of player actions, just like named villainds heroes defeat respawn now. If you assassinate the mayor he's got to make a miraculous recovery for the next hitman to shoot at. It gets worse if you drastically affect a zone: you can never actually set off a WOMD in MC because it would shut down that shard for everyone else, and that's a ridiculous amount of computer resources to allocate to a single player. So what to do with that sort of villaous goal? Hope the players won't mind that the gameworld ignores their achievements? Put in some sort of mechanism to ensure all attemprts at extreme actions automatically fail? (Yeah, that won't cause any complaints...)
Finally, the game didn't launch with enough Hero PVE content, and still only has a single levelling path. Can you imagine if half the content design had been divertyed to villain play?
Once we have more hero cvontent - perhaps double or triple what we have now - then a villain expansion might make some sort of sense.
For now, any attempt would pretty much kill this game dead as all work on hero PVE content came to a complete halt for a year or more.
Other than that, I think folks have hit the nail on the head pretty well with the discussion of the 'nature' of villainous play vs. heroic. IMO, villainous-play, in order to actually be satisfying, would need to implement some kind of system . . . well, like nothing that actually exists, AFAIK, in any MMO to date. I'm not really sure it can be done with any -reasonable- allocation of resources. Villains need to be pro-active, the instigators, while heroes generally work in a responsive mode. That's the key difference, and a really big one.
I know in CoV, people often said it just didn't feel very 'villainous.' That's mostly because it was just the same gameplay as hero-side, with different mission text that would ascribe more sinister motives to your actions. Heck, if you were one of those people who just click through everything without reading and play the combat, you might not have ever realized there was any difference between the hero and villain play.
So all in all, I'm pretty skeptical about the whole idea of making truly satisfying villain gameplay. I very much want to see the existing game for Champions fleshed out with a lot more quality content before any such endeavors would be launched, myself. (Though in all honesty, I must admit that I am not really very interested in playing as a villain. I've never found much enjoyment in playing 'evil' characters in any of the PnP RPGs I play. So it's not very high on my list.)
Just because games A & B have feature X does not mean that game C must have it as well...
The competition have feature X, people like feature X. We should get feature X to prevent loosing people to the competition.
You clearly missed the post where some one pointed out that the villain side of CoX was pretty empty.
Best of all it could be layered over the current game they could add some kind of morality meter allowing current characters to go down a more vigilantly path if they so wish or stick to being true heroes and vigilante heroes could make there way from working in the shadows to being full blown public spirited heroes
new Dark Champions contacts could be added to the existing zones (suitably located in shady ally ways and such) they would only talk to you if you were of the vigilant bent. also a lot of the more law abiding current contacts would no longer talk to you and the authorities would try and arrest you.
It could add a hole new levelling path something that is sorely needed in the game.
They could also add Hudson City as a new Zone. A Zone where heroes are considered as bad as the criminals and are treated as such by the local law enforcement. Perhaps have it so only the most publicly recognisable heroes (so those at the opposite end from morality meter from the Dark Champions) would be accepted.
Its comprised of open pvp zones where you play as either heroes or villains trying to complete open missions to aid them. You create either a hero or villain then select a zone. The zone defines your level and so you chose your powers up to the level you are at.
So villains would do stuff like powering up megadestroid to help them or teleporting villains out of stronghold to fight alongside. Each zone has a set level which you automatically reach upon entering. There are faction bases for each team in the zone with a powerhouse and item dispenser (and tailor!).
You choose either zones 1, 2, 3 or 4.
People want feature X properly implemented. CoX had a villian side and as it was previously stated it was pretty much the same missions and mobs as the hero side with different text. The best thing outside of some of the classes was the meyham missions and even then they restricted what you could do.
Decend upon the city with enough power to level city blocks with a squad of giant robots and command of the weather and you can but a hurt on the city's bottom line by destroying parking meters and garbage dumpters. OOOOH, the villiany.
If I am a villian I want to be able to kill civilians, kick a dog and lay waste to city blocks. Leave the minor property defacing to the NPCs.
Fascinating.
I like this.
I like building villains.
Lol you know what sfunny? PPl who dont know what they are talking about... YOU ARE WRONG... plz dont open your mouth if you dont know whats coming out of it. I play CoX, my main is a villian, all my frnds are villains, and my almost 500 strong SG is villian <ya ya only 199 are consistently on its an old game w/e> but the point is ALOT of ppl play the villian this is true in ANY game or RP instance, or even f'n LARP fests. plz dont knock something just cuz you dont like, and plz dont vomit your ignorant opinion in my face. TY.
P.S. Srry I came on alittle bit strong here.. my bad BUT ever since the Rogue expac and Villians expac CoX has held my interest to the point where I am still holding a subscription to it even tho I obvioulsy have one to this game... there ARE ppl that like choices... there are people that like conent, unlike some we are not ALL mindless sheep who like only whatever we are told to like and think change is communist.
Well Im sorry I guess Im just different.. Im a dick in real life,, and I LOVE playing one in game... being a villian will ALWAYS be the only way I ever go... and the consequences for me are the best part..... villians will make this game AWSM!!!
my statement was not all-inclusive, nor directed at you personally. it's simply my own opinion.
i, for one, would much rather Cryptic spend their time & money improving upon what we already have (*cough* crafting, Nemesis system, etc. *cough*).
i have also seen others mention the idea of Dark Champions. now, i'm not familiar with Champions PnP, but just the phrase "Dark Champions" , to me, implies all sorts of juicy moral greyness. i find the idea of that infinitely more interesting than just straight up, good ol' fashioned evil.
and if you prefer straight up, good ol' fashioned evil, that's cool...you're absolutely entitled to your own opinion.
Well tbh... just like everything else that is copied and pasted over from game to game <cryptics mo I think> this is what will most probably happen. I'm actually not complaining this time tho as I think that a villian and rogue expac would b epic in this game.
Oh I like "ALL" brands of evil...:cool:
The only problem with this is to really do it right you would likely have to tap into some really dark, macabre, and mature themes. The problem with that is that it could possibly require a higher rating from the ESRB, and then Mess could get his Tinkerbell-esque strapless top hooker-wear. And I wouldn't want that.
whats so bad about strapless tops? they have the corsett.. thats strapless. Im confused.
It is more about Mess not getting what he wants more than my opinion on the clothes. So I'll make up my opinion as it suits what I want, or more accurately, so he doesn't get what he wants.
You know, i'd REALLY like to give some nasty scathing reply to this.
But the truth is, now after my LARP experience if someone said the same thing to me...
...I'd probably say exactly the same thing :cool:
Who's paying who to keep who happy?
I saw a LARP meet at the local park in the city I live next too...2 big pimply fat dudes dressed as Sepiroth <near as I can tell> lookin like they hadnt showered in 3 months started a plastic claymore fight that eventually turned into a real one... ROFL maan that was sooo funny.. watchin those two fat dudes dressed up like a final fantasy villian rolling over one another slapping each others faces ROFL now THAT was entertainment. Right outside the building I was going into too.... EVERYONE saw em it was a blast.
When did they say this?
Linkz?
Sometimes there is not enough money in the world to make you do something you don't like. I've had jobs where tipping is a part of it and if I have an irate customer who tries to bring up the fact that they gave me a tip so I should skirt some sort of personal limit, I give them their tip back (or throw it in the garbage right in front of them if they refuse to take it back) and ask them to not tip me in the future.
Baah, I hate sleuthing for links. :C Gimmie a minute...
EDIT: I can't find it, It was mentioned at a Devchat and the only site that seems to host the transcripts is down.
...Don't :cool:
The one i hosted (i took it over after 5 years during it's 8 year total run) was actually in the state capitol.
And we eventually got visited by the Mayor (in a good way),
We were also featured on a nightly news spot once (again, also in a good way).
Well this is like asking for more of the hash browns you had yesterday and the cook peeking out and saying he doesn't like cooking hash browns... I've made myself hungry. I'd ask what that personal limit was but you don't respond well to being pushed.
Sure the cook made hashbrowns at that NCsoft restaurant. But the cook knows that they made the patrons very very ill. Now you can try to slip him a few bucks to make the food poisoning taters delight, but the cook might want to put that travesty behind him.
Back to the analogy(?), I tell the guy he can cook it extra long, since hey, you can't really overcook potatoes unless you turn them to carbon.
Regardless if you got sick or not Cryptic thinks that it did make others sick. Therefore you are asking them to do something that they know they can't do a good job on. So I don't see any good reason why they would take a course of action they know isn't going to turn out well.
In the mean time the cook has so many dishes on the stove that he really doesnt have time (or enough burners) to add an old dish to his new kitchen. Particularly since the current dish closest in flavor to that old one is not a big seller in the new restaurant.
As translated from the analogy...
Cryptic was not completely happy with how CoV played out. The received significant amounts of feedback that has convinced them that, if they are ever going to do the villain thing again, they are going to put the time and thought into doing it right. They dont want a Nemesis Online to be a rehash of CoV.
Right now Cryptic has two games on the market, and a third on the way. Neither of the two current games are as successful as had been hoped for. Cryptic doesnt really have the resources to be revisiting an add-on to CO, which is struggling to qualify for even minimal content addition resources, at this time.
Perhaps someday.
Sorry for the double post but this ^^^
Cryptic wants to make games that they can be proud of. Of course they also want to make money in the process, but if they dont thinkt hat they can do a villain expansion well at this time, they wont.