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FC.31.20220121.1 - Heavy Weapons Adjustments

kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,848 Cryptic Developer
edited February 2022 in PTS - The Archive
Screenshots
A new command has been added:
  • screenshot_ui_jpg_with_name
  • Using this while selecting a player will include their character name and @ handle in the name of the screenshot.




Power Changes
  • Heavy Weapons is getting some adjustments. We are only looking at existing powers for this pass.


Reckless
  • Increased effectiveness of Bastion on Heavy Weapons powers.



Earthsplitter
  • Increased cylinder radius to 5ft (from 3).
  • Reduced chance to apply Reckless on tap.
  • Removed chance to apply Clinging Flames.
  • Adjusted damage to cost values.
  • Bend the Earth adv: Changed from greater than 25ft to 10ft.
  • New Adv (2): Chance to apply Clinging Flames.
  • New Adv (2): Applies No Quarter to Disoriented targets.
  • New Adv (2): Applies Engulfing Flames to targets affected by Clinging Flames. Expires all of your Clinging Flames.



Vicious Descent
  • Increased radius to 15ft.
  • New Adv (2): Increases the effectiveness of Bastion on this power to 50%.



Annihilate
  • Increased range to 15ft.
  • Tooltip update.
  • New Adv (1): Knocks up targets affected by Disorient instead of back.



Bludgeon
  • Increased range to 15ft.



Brimstone
  • Increased radius to 15ft.
  • Added 3 second cooldown.
  • Removed Disorient effect.
  • Adjusted damage to cost values.
  • Knock Up effect now occurs during a partial charge of the power instead of full.
  • Thundering Roar Advantage: Additionally Disorients targets affected by Clinging Flames.



Eruption
  • Increased range to 15ft.
  • Removed Reckless refresh.
  • Now Stuns targets immune to Knock effects.
  • New Advantage (2): Applies Reckless.
  • Magma Burst: Increased area effect to 15ft. Updated visuals.



Skewer
  • Increased range to 15ft.



Skullcrusher
  • Increased range to 15ft.
  • New Advantage (1): Increased damage for each stack of Reckless on you.
  • New Advantage (2): Fully charging the power applies Demolish to your primary target.



Cleave
  • Increased range to 15ft.
  • Slightly reduced damage.
  • Removed Clinging Flames effect.
  • New Adv (2): Chance to apply Clinging Flames. Guaranteed chance on last hit.
  • Rampant Adv: Reduced overall chance to apply Reckless. Guaranteed application on last hit.



Arc of Ruin
  • Increased radius to 15ft.
  • Adjusted damage to cost values.
​​
Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on

Comments

  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 752 Arc User
    The CD on brimstone makes this attack pointless. It's too long to make it a useful AOE to clear anything anymore. And there's nothing in the set to replace it with. You'll have to use pyre instead.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • h4forumsh4forums Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    CGA3LnK.png
    i had a bit of fun with that 50% reckless thing. while i doubt any real melee dps is gonna use compassion, this might open up some gameplay options for shielding based builds.


    also cleave didnt get its supposed update and is still 10'
    rPFiuvr.png


    also earthsplitter description still claims it applies clinging flames (without the adv) even though it got removed
    NfkFUVe.png
  • thisiscraftaaathisiscraftaaa Posts: 72 Arc User
    I'm concerned about Heavy Weapon's toolkit getting so many 5' range buffs. 5' on a melee power, if I might be frank, is absolutely huge, and this is coming from someone who loves melee. Yes, I get it, Heavy Weapon powers swing around giant weapons so overly large that them having more range than everything else is thematic, but...

    That's a 50% increase in range on one specific melee powerset. When the entirety of the gimmick of melee powers is that they hit harder than ranged powers but have to get in close and constantly reposition, worry more about what enemies and especially bosses are doing since CO doesn't really have such a thing as a "reverse PBAoE." And the entirety of the gimmick of Heavy Weapons is that many of its strongest attacks require it standing still, in exchange for even more damage than competitors, which is the same reason attacks like Ego Blade Annihilation and Reaper's Embrace are so strong: giving up flexibility/having requirements in exchange for more damage output. Either Heavy Weapons gets nerfed to compensate for the huge buff to its positioning, which immediately makes it bad to play for numbers-mongering content like Cosmics+Eidolon and Lairs, or it keeps its live damage output, which is already very high, but doesn't have to give up something in exchange for the frightening strength of an extra 50% range over all other melee attack powers, which would put it in as, at least in my opinion, objectively the best melee powerset in the game.

    Does this mean that other melee powersets will be getting buffs to range in the future, whether from 10' to 15' or even more, or will potentially receive Advs that increase their range? Will we be seeing any further significant balancing changes on Heavy Weapon to help make sure Heavy Weapon is in a comfortable middle-ground, and neither overpowered due to range advantage or underpowered due to being nerfed too hard damage-wise for having that range advantage?

    This just feels like it's a bad idea that's bound to make HW either busted-good or busted-bad, unless care is given to balance HW to adjust for the range buff. And balancing powers in this game isn't some easy throwaway do-it-in-an-afternoon thing.
    Defender save my soul, for I have sinned...
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Firstly, thank you for taking the time to return to power changes. The community has been aching for more of them and they're always welcome to see.

    So my initial thoughts on these changes are mostly mixed.

    I'll start with the positives. I think Skullcrusher is in a much better place now, but it still feels a bit off. The reckless advantage is good damage and brings it in line with Skewer. However, it still feels weirdly niche, both of them do (Skullcrusher and Skewer). They're in a weird spot where the single target damage is mediocre in exchange for an AoE, but both AoEs suffer from being a 3ft cylinder, and not a lot of folks make use of them for that reason. So as it goes with both powers, I see a couple of options:

    Suggestions for Skullcrusher and/or Skewer
    Option 1:
    Increase the AoE Width on both Skullcrusher or Skewer to 5ft wide (instead of 3ft). This is a small change would make both powers far more reliable as AoEs and do a lot to increase their effectiveness in the powerset.

    Option 2:
    Change one or both powers to single target, and make them an alternative to Annihilate. We've seen similar treatment in other sets, and it would give the set a lot more variability to have a different focus than clinging flames and Annihilate spam.


    I also really like the advantage on Vicious Descent. It's rare we get some really decent defensive advantages, and it feels pretty useful!


    What doesn't feel good about these changes is that a lot of changes rely on reckless, and refreshing that is still tricky. A lot of the changes like those to Eruption and Earthsplitter makes it very hard to reliably stack reckless.

    Bug
    Powers and advantages that apply reckless (such as Eruption, Vicious Descent, etc.) will apply a stack of reckless, but they will not refresh stacks unless there are 3 stacks of reckless. No other buff works like this to my knowledge. If this is intentional, the tooltips should be updated to reflect this as they currently say they refresh all stacks of reckless if any stacks exist.


    The cooldown change on Brimstone isn't necessary. This puts it behind similar powers like Dragon Kick, Sword Cyclone, etc. Suggestion: Please consider revising the cooldown on Brimstone in exchange for removing some of this power's utility functions. This power is already less powerful than Havoc Stomp, which seems to be its peer now. If the cooldown has to stay, please adjust the damage to bring it in line with Havoc Stomp.

    Bug
    Cleave does not appear to have had any changes applied. It's still 10ft and the tooltips don't reflect the new changes from what I can tell.


    Suggestion
    Skewer: Consider an advantage to allow this power to knock down.


    Overall, it feels like too many sets are losing their utility to advantages to make up for the 15ft change. Taking these advantages to manage the same utility of other sets is clunky feeling in exchange for the 15ft range. I would rather see the damage adjusted on some of these powers rather than them losing the utility without having to spend points. Suggestion: Consider reverting the changes to Eruption, Brimstone, and Cleave and return them to 10ft. They do not benefit from the extended range enough to make up for the loss in utility.

    Lastly, Earthsplitter is probably hit the hardest by these changes. It already suffers from being an underperforming ranged attack, but losing its utility is stripping the power of everything it has useful. It's a weak ranged attack that now has utility, in a melee set that it only benefits when you get the advantages on it.Suggestion: Either return the chance to apply clinging flames and reckless to their original values, or increase the damage (or make it melee with an advantage option for a ranged pull) to make up for it.

    Overall, I feel like a lot of players will react to these changes as nerfs in exchange for extra range. In the end, the extra range doesn't help all these powers equally, and I don't think it's right that they should be applied the same way across the board and adjusted to make up for it.

    Once again, thank you for taking the time to adjust these powers. I look forward to seeing more changes ahead and providing more feedback! :)
  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    HW still hits lower than all other melee trees, buff to 15ft doesn't change much at all though it is welcome. The nerf to some of the powers is also out of left field. The exact numbers on Bastion for HW in specific would be good to know, since all we have is the base detail of Bastion. Also a lot of powers lost their utility to be moved to Advs which further lowers the damage those powers do if you want to get the utility.

    Brute Strike is also still 10ft.

    Skewer is still bad, Skullcrusher is still bad and Melee still needs better AoE, Brimstone & Skullcrusher just aren't enough and the cooldown on Brimstone is unwarranted.


    Still happy powers are being looked at though, I really am.
    Post edited by lunnylunny on
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,150 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    nbkxs wrote: »
    The CD on brimstone makes this attack pointless. It's too long to make it a useful AOE to clear anything anymore. And there's nothing in the set to replace it with. You'll have to use pyre instead.

    So much this. Brimstone's low damage output does not warrent this CD.

    Skewer still looks pointless.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
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  • metalheart#4270 metalheart Posts: 1,048 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Screenshots
    A new command has been added:
    • screenshot_ui_jpg_with_name
    • Using this while selecting a player will include their character name and @ handle in the name of the screenshot.
    ​​

    Strange but useful. While we on the topic...



    May I suggest a screenshot camera mode that turns all writing on NPCs and players on or off. Should be easier than going into UI and turn them off one by one. It's also impossible to take a screenshot of your own character while using emotes like sitting or lounge. We need a screenshot mode with a better 360 camera. Allow players to adjust the height vertically without weird zoom ins and outs. According to height of character when cant get a full screenshot shot without weird angles.

    nJ54tmw.gifThis Is The Ghetto Gothix
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,986 Arc User
    I don't think Bastion needed to be improved in terms of effectiveness for Heavy Weapons.

    Unless of course, we're headed in this direction and it is intended:

    unknown.png

  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,986 Arc User
    Power Changes
    • Heavy Weapons is getting some adjustments. We are only looking at existing powers for this pass.


    Reckless
    • Increased effectiveness of Bastion on Heavy Weapons powers.

    What is the reasoning behind these changes happening now?

    Are they in response to something? I suppose I'm trying to figure out what the intention is with these adjustments.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,986 Arc User
    Additionally I feel like this would be a good opportunity to create options for Negative Ions applications within Heavy Weapons since it is in some ways being reverted.
  • ericrightshow82ericrightshow82 Posts: 557 Arc User
    I can live with all of these changes, except for BRIMSTONE. PLEASE do not add a CD. There's no reason for it
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,986 Arc User
    Bug
    Cleave's proposed range increases have not made it into this build.


    I have to be honest and I am aware that I'm likely in the minority here, but I really hate the new Cleave! Moving CF to an advantage is kind of a bad move in my opinion but again, no idea of the context of the change being made. Seems quite random.

    Bug
    Arc of Ruin with Wildfire advantage is stacking for Smouldering even if there's no Clinging Flames to refresh.



    Suggestion
    Although this is likely outside of the scope of potential changes for this build, please consider allowing the following advantages to be used with HW (Chill and Negative Ions). This could be done by adding new advantages to Cleave, Arc of Ruin, Annihilate, Skullcrusher & Earthsplitter.

    Example:

    Cleave: Charged Strikes (Escalating chance to apply Negative Ions)
    Cleave: Frigid Swings ( 30/30/100% chance to apply Chill)

    Arc of Ruin: Energetic Swing (Refreshes Negative Ions)
    Arc of Ruin: Frozen Swipe (Refreshes existing Chill stacks)

    Annihilate: Energy Blade (Your Annihilate deals 30% increased damage against targets who are affected by Negative Ions)
    Annihilate: Frosted Blade (Your Annihilate deals 10% increased damage against targets who are affected by Chill. This increases to 30% on targets who have three stacks of Chill.)

    Skullcrusher: Charged Slam (Your fully charged Skullcrusher now applies Negative Ions to the primary target and has a 30% chance to apply Negative Ions to secondary targets)
    Skullcrusher: Frozen Impact (Your fully charged Skullcrusher now applies a stack of Chill to the primary target and has a 30% chance to apply Chill to secondary targets)

    Earthsplitter: Electrified Earth (Your fully charged Earthsplitter now applies Negative Ions to the primary target and has a 40% chance to apply Negative Ions to secondary targets)
    Earthsplitter: Frozen Surface (Your fully charged Earthsplitter now applies two Chill stacks to the primary target and has a 40% chance to apply a stack of Chill to your secondary targets)
  • andondarkmoreandondarkmore Posts: 634 Arc User
    Gadget Powerset can have a on next hit power that will apply Either CF, NI, Chill, Other. A power that can apply ONE Meta feature.
  • metalheart#4270 metalheart Posts: 1,048 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    You know I always thought HW should be flexible to other elements apart from the measly thing brimstom does with ions. I hope it's concidered.
    Gadget Powerset can have a on next hit power that will apply Either CF, NI, Chill, Other. A power that can apply ONE Meta feature.

    This sounds to good. But they on HWs though. Also would be extremely nice if the chill part apples ice cage to all targets hit. That allows guns and blasters to be used like freeze ray guns.
    nJ54tmw.gifThis Is The Ghetto Gothix
  • gentlegiantvexxgentlegiantvexx Posts: 319 Community Moderator
    edited January 2022
    Suggestion:
    Remove the root on Skewer and Annihilate at charge release or increase their damage significantly to warrant their root justification

    It is bad that the rest of the Melee based power set don't have roots, but it's still very bad to have that animation lock you in place longer than you absolutely should. You're either forced to block early to where the hit may not even connect or charge much lower than what's rewarding for the powers in order to move out of danger compared to the rest.

    Suggestion:
    Skewer
    = Tooltip update.
    > Fully charging this attack guarantees Bleed on your target
    = Increased range to 15ft.
    > New Adv (1): Knocks Back Targets affected by Disorient.
    ---
    Let Skewer guarantee the Bleed at full charge on the target and give it a Knock Advantage that has opportunity against Disoriented Targets as you thrust your weapon forward. This allows players choice for a stronger AoE overall power and/or another utility in another form of toggle form stacking.

    Suggestion:
    Skullcrusher
    = Increased range to 15ft.
    > Damage Increased on primary target, other enemies still receive adequate damage.
    = New Advantage (1): Increased damage for each stack of Reckless on you.
    = New Advantage (2): Fully charging the power applies Demolish to your primary target.
    ---
    Cylinder AoE powers are most commonly single target oriented, they should deal more damage and not need to suffer the damage spread like Sphere and Cone AoEs, but still not outshine Single Target.


    Suggestion:
    Annihilate
    = Increased range to 15ft.
    = Tooltip update.
    = New Adv (1): Knocks up targets affected by Disorient instead of back.
    > New Adv (2): Affect Targets in a 3ft Cylinder AoE. Primary target receives more damage.
    ---
    Not everyone wants to use Annihilate as a single target, maybe they would like to stab an enemy or five with a big weapon! But really, there should be a choice to not need to take Skewer to not benefit, resort to a lesser synergized ability that's built more towards utility instead of damage such as Skull Crusher, and take advantage of the AoE portions of spec trees, even more so if targets are affected by Clinging Flames for Scorched Blade. Skewer's damage rules with primary and secondary targets should still apply as well. Might as well keep the 15ft range as rewarding as possible and further bring the set's identity to also being the most AoE Heavy set than the rest. If we're going to be rooted, we'll need something else to show for it.
    Post edited by gentlegiantvexx on
  • andondarkmoreandondarkmore Posts: 634 Arc User
    1) For Cleave make Fiery Spirit 1 point. This way we can have rank 3 cleave and DPS and add CF and tanks can add Challenge.


    Sorry do not know how to color my posts.
    May edit my post while I redo/review my HW characters on PTS
  • nacito#6758 nacito Posts: 945 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Bug

    neither cleave nor bludgeon have 15 ft range now
    arc of ruin still has its vfx on the other side of the floor
    unknown.png
    cf flame tooltip needs to be updated on earth splitter
    Eruptions reckless endangerment doesn't refresh reckless
    vicious descent is giving 2 stacks of reckless due to it hitting twice
    the improved bastion only works when the reckless is applied by vicious descent (intended?)
    earth splitter adv engulf flames applies 3 stacks of eng flames, the tooltip doesn't state that
    unknown.png




    Post edited by nacito#6758 on
    Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
    4hszgc1knoyo.png

    This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
  • nacito#6758 nacito Posts: 945 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Suggestion:

    arc is easy debuffing (aoe on tap), earth splitter is easy debuffing (aoe on tap), skull crusher is not (single target full charge), buff skull crusher
    defensive stance in cleave should work like defensive combo giving a shield
    vicious descent should knock naturally, make it cost more energy for that
    please remove roots from annihilate and skewer


    Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
    4hszgc1knoyo.png

    This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
  • klepto#8734 klepto Posts: 4 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Skewer needs the Wildfire advantage
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,716 Arc User
    All right, Second Mini-Pass for Heavy weapons, that was unexpected! 🤔
    We havent got a small addition power update since Darkness if I remember well

    The AOE increase is very good but I still wish self rooting was removed from Annihilate! Where is the part-time animator when you need them?

    Overall this mini-update is pretty basic, but is leaves to more to be desired for interesting synergies and themes
    Not to mention the less fortunated unrevamped powerframes!
    Earthsplitter
    Increased cylinder radius to 5ft (from 3).
    Reduced chance to apply Reckless on tap.
    Removed chance to apply Clinging Flames.
    Adjusted damage to cost values.
    Bend the Earth adv: Changed from greater than 25ft to 10ft.
    New Adv (2): Chance to apply Clinging Flames.
    New Adv (2): Applies No Quarter to Disoriented targets
    This is going to screw up my Elementalist's adv points contribution
    So far its the only GOOD earth-like substitute power to have synergy with Fire
    Skullcrusher
    Increased range to 15ft.
    New Advantage (1): Increased damage for each stack of Reckless on you.
    New Advantage (2): Fully charging the power applies Demolish to your primary target.
    Sad to see, the power even with the new BUFF adv barely does satisfying damage close to Annihilate and Skewer
    Brimstone
    Increased radius to 15ft.
    Added 3 second cooldown.
    Removed Disorient effect.
    Adjusted damage to cost values.
    Knock Up effect now occurs during a partial charge of the power instead of full.
    Thundering Roar Advantage: Additionally Disorients targets affected by Clinging Flames.
    As everyone said this! DO NOT DO THIS Do NOT putt CD on Brimstone

    The good news is! With the radius increase buff this makes Lighting Rod ADV more viable with more exactable pulling range :+1:

    Suggestion: Please add more ways for HW advs powers that apply Negative Ions
    this still feels incomplete and just an idea thrown in
    You could add 2 Points ADVs for Negative Ions on Cleave, Earthsplitter, Eruption
    Cleave
    Increased range to 15ft.
    Slightly reduced damage.
    Removed Clinging Flames effect.
    New Adv (2): Chance to apply Clinging Flames. Guaranteed chance on last hit.
    Rampant Adv: Reduced overall chance to apply Reckless. Guaranteed application on last hit.
    I was never a fan of Cleave but the removal of clinging flames makes it even more BAD
    Suggestion as mentioned before: Make the CFs ADV 1 point instead of 2
    Makes sense to be 2points for Earthsplitter but for Cleave no really!

    Can you please Document that the Defensive Stance ADV secondary effect?
    It gives you the Aegis Buff if you don't use the Defiant Passive but nobody ever knows about it because the description doesnt mention it
    ​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies
    Playing since 1 February 2011 90+ Characters (7 ATs, 83 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    If nothing else, please consider looking at Skewer and Skullcrusher in more detail. For as long as I can remember, these powers have sat unused in HW for ages, simply because they're inferior to the other powers. Both powers lack the single target damage to compete with annihilate as a viable single target alternative, and both SIGNIFICANTLY lack the AoE range to compete with the set's many strong AoEs. Why use Skullcrusher for an AoE if Arc of Ruin or Brimstone can hit for more damage and potentially debuff multiple targets, AND it hits in a full (now 15ft) circle around the user? Why use Skewer for single target damage if Annihilate does vastly more damage and stacks the set's toggle form innately? They consistently fall behind and just cannot compete with the other powers, and this 15ft change just highlights that discrepancy. Please give these two powers something that makes them worth choosing over the alternatives.
    Post edited by panthrax77 on
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 309 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Please consider changing the horizontal range of both Skewer and Skullcrusher to 5ft instead of 3. Earthsplitter is getting the same treatment and it benefits massively from it.

    Alternatively, you can make these powers single target alternatives to annihilate.


    Had to make a second post because the BB color codes wouldn't work at all on the prior one. :c
  • miorummiorum Posts: 29 Arc User
    I'm not quite sure what triggered the idea to decouple the HW powerset from the Clinging Flames debuff in favor of giving it (double) Reckless/Bastion, but I'm not a fan - especially since this could be the time where HW gains more synergy with other Powersets (it already winks at them with Negative Ions).

    If the plan is to morph it to be "Might, but Weapon!", I'd appreciate it if that was communicated.

    Didn't plan on parroting others, but:
    * Cleave: already the slowest Combo power in the game. The changes here just make it a less damaging(?), further reaching version of Beatdown/Defensive Combo. That's not a good trade-off.

    * Brimstone: Adding a 3 second cooldown on Brimstone is bunk, especially since it's the only other reliable, spherical AoE the Powerset has outside Arc of Ruin. (Vicious Descent already has a CD) The AT's especially would hate this.

    Also, could Arc of Ruin get a Knock-To instead of Down? Would make me feel less bad when resistance stacks drop and my Annihilate catapults my foe into the next map. Thanks.
    In-game, I'm The_Kef -- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's amazing: we're all still here.
  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    avianos wrote: »
    Sad to see, the power even with the new BUFF adv barely does satisfying damage close to Annihilate and Skewer

    Far as I recall on my last test with just base values, Skullcrusher with R3+Reckless adv vs Skewer with R3+charge adv vs Annihilate with R2+Fire adv, Skullcrusher and Skewer are at about the same DPS, which are still far behind Annihilate.

    I'd like to use the "But they're AoE" card but the AoE radius is too small, if both of them were Sphere AoEs (which I'm not suggesting they should be) they'd be *okay* or so as powers. My suggestion would be just making Skullcrusher hit in a 10~20ft AoE sphere around the target you're hitting, main target gets knocked down, secondary ones get knocked up. Damage buffed and energy cost increased. With that said, Brimstone would probably need a buff- well it already needs a damage one since the cooldown ruins it, but other than that it could interact in someway to Demolish, Reckless or even No Quarter. Personally a cool interaction could be made by allowing it to rupture Demolish to do an AoE explosion on each enemy, giving it an AoE rotation with Skullcrusher's advantage to apply Demolish, obviously for that Skullcrusher needs a better AoE, hence the suggestion to make it a sphere around the target.


    And Skewer needs to work off either Enrage or Aspect of the Beastial at the very least, 50% bleed chance is not reliable enough, and the damage the power itself does is low.


  • omnius#0640 omnius Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Edited to take back what I said before I realized there was a dps nerf involved. Seems to me the bulk of these changes so far are a sweeping nerf to overall dps for the sake of 5'. Besides this being an obvious nerf, it was also unnecessary, nobody was clamoring for what you did here to happen. And just to make things worse, you've unfolded abilities from powers into advantages, which is basically just a roundabout way to nerf because now there's less points to play with. And once again, no good reason for it.
    Post edited by omnius#0640 on
    Unholy Consult | Pantheon | Lazarus Frost | Sword Saint | Gammatron | Blackguard | Imperator | Sardaukar | Risen Osiris
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 309 Arc User
    > @lunnylunny said:
    > Far as I recall on my last test with just base values, Skullcrusher with R3+Reckless adv vs Skewer with R3+charge adv vs Annihilate with R2+Fire adv, Skullcrusher and Skewer are at about the same DPS, which are still far behind Annihilate.
    >
    > I'd like to use the "But they're AoE" card but the AoE radius is too small, if both of them were Sphere AoEs (which I'm not suggesting they should be) they'd be *okay* or so as powers. My suggestion would be just making Skullcrusher hit in a 10~20ft AoE sphere around the target you're hitting, main target gets knocked down, secondary ones get knocked up. Damage buffed and energy cost increased. With that said, Brimstone would probably need a buff- well it already needs a damage one since the cooldown ruins it, but other than that it could interact in someway to Demolish, Reckless or even No Quarter. Personally a cool interaction could be made by allowing it to rupture Demolish to do an AoE explosion on each enemy, giving it an AoE rotation with Skullcrusher's advantage to apply Demolish, obviously for that Skullcrusher needs a better AoE, hence the suggestion to make it a sphere around the target.
    >
    >
    > And Skewer needs to work off either Enrage or Aspect of the Beastial at the very least, 50% bleed chance is not reliable enough, and the damage the power itself does is low.

    Love these ideas, personally. Heck, you could even make Skullcrusher a cone and it would be infinitely more useful. Just increasing that AoE range is the biggest thing. If you can match the damage of Brimstone or other powers in the set, it would be fantastic. Skewer needs a similar treatment too.
  • nacito#6758 nacito Posts: 945 Arc User
    I could post the differences of powers in live vs pts here with the same ungeared character
    Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
    4hszgc1knoyo.png

    This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 186 Arc User
    Just a few observations.

    The melee range is a fairly big deal that puts HW at a significant advantage vs other melee sets due to slightly less positioning needed. Maybe... What I don't understand is your wording of "Adjusted damage to cost values". Very vague, and useless info. You need to specify this for us because now we don't know what the heck you've done to the damage on all the powers you made this notation. That's the least annoyed and most polite response I can give that obscure wording :/

    Brimstone CD: I don't see this as huge as others above do, mostly because all of you already know that Eruption>Arc is already part of the accepted popular rotation on this set anyway, and 3 secs on Brimstone doesn't change much other than stopping you from just spamming tf out of it on trash mobs. When solo, especially with the range increase, Eruption>Arc>Brimstone will clear almost all trash aside from outside the 10' range. Now it'll clear all of it. This is just stopping you from going "nah Imma just spam brimstone" and working in some powers you already (should!) optimally have anyway. And again.. 3 seconds. C'mon. :#

    bastion/reckless changes: holy... nice.

    This is supposed to be a nerf to HW for some of you? They basically just made an already powerful popular melee set orders of magnitude better and you're going "but cd Brimstone!!!!" If anything IMO they should've skipped HW and addressed numerous other powersets that have been desperately waiting for a pass forever. Like Earth. I personally don't get that. Maybe the devs who also play just love HW /shrug

    Damage wise for *single target* the set hasn't changed, and that's because Annihilate didn't really change. If you want to use the other powers in the set for helping with Annihilate though, Cleave (fire apply) has been nerfed (loss of damage and now you need adv for the fire), Arc of Ruin has been nerfed (loss of damage), so in there you'll notice a damage loss.

    The reckless change might have you in "cool 20k hp shield!", except you have to build to that amount of shield and chances are the shield value will drop the moment you're holding block, plus the shield doesn't benefit from resistance. Plus you have to maintain your reckless stacks, and apply them in the first place, which can potentially be a big DPS loss.

    Then when you look at the AoEs, all of them except the ranged one have been nerfed. Melee AoE in the game right now is awful, there's about two good ones and the others are passable. This might not matter to you if you're just doing cosmics and Eido, since you can oneshot basic mobs with T0 powers anyway, but for anything such as StE and TT, the Melee AoEs are in a terrible spot.

    15ft from 10ft is not a huge deal. All it means is that you can stand 5ft further away from a cosmic, which doesn't matter anyway. It makes the AoEs reach a *little* further away, but the AoEs are even worse now so what's the point?

    Also HW is not a "powerful popular melee set", it's lowest in the DPS list of melee powersets that aren't niche. It's popular because people like big weapons on their characters, because people want a Paladin that isn't using TK blades. You could lower the DPS by 20% it'd still be a really popular set. Heck, I have a character that uses HW to bash people with a shield (invisible HW), but I don't take her to any of the harder lairs because her AoE is terrible and her single target is lower than the other melee trees who can move around. Having a shield 12k~20k shield on her isn't going to change that, and I'm still going to have to block everything because I don't want to get knocked, stunned or %HP DoT, since all of those go through shield- so... yeah.

    One more time though, "Positioning advantages!"- you still can't move around with your main attacks. In the time you're still stuck, rooted, any other melee powerset would have moved 20ft (a number higher than 5ft!). The ability to move is greater than having even 10 extra ft range on HW, which is not the solution I'm suggesting because that would look goofy and wrong anyway, the 15ft already kinda does that.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    The AoE effect on skewer is actually detrimental, because it means the power is vulnerable to the hit detection problems cylinders have.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,387 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Cleave's final hit still deals some Fire damage, but this damage is not properly listed in the tooltip for this last hit (instead, a small KB effect is listed).

    Misc feedback: It's perhaps a small thing, but it would be nice to know the specifics about the proc chances on advs like Cleave's Fiery Spirit or Earth Spiltter's Fiery Chasm on their own adv's descriptions (Earth Splitter's doesn't appear to be detailed anywhere, and even after training it).

    I will also join the chorus of people requesting that Brimstone not have a cd; it's just nice to have another spam-able pbAoE in the set as an option to work with. The power's innate knock effects could always have a short cd instead (like for Pyre or Arc of Ruin's knock options), if need be.

    (and on that note, the description of the Wildfire adv for Arc of Ruin still doesn't specify that its knock has a cd)
    Post edited by flowcyto on
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  • nickcave33nickcave33 Posts: 34 Arc User
    Will we get a free respec with this? And yeah not sure about the CD on Brimstone.
  • spookyspectrespookyspectre Posts: 579 Arc User
    nickcave33 wrote: »
    Will we get a free respec with this? And yeah not sure about the CD on Brimstone.

    Usually everyone with a revamped powerset gets a free respec. It would be unusual for players not to get one with this revamp.
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 875 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    Isn't the range increase to offset the fact that many of the powers self-root? Most melee sets do more damage, and don't self-root. So yeah, no need to panic, 5' is not going to make HW suddenly OP. Sometimes I wonder if we're all playing the same game here.

    I like the range increase. It's a thematic way to deal with an arbitrary drawback HW has had to deal with for a long time now.

    Not sure how I feel about brimstone having a CD. If it gets one, it should be worth it. Currently it's just a somewhat ok AoE. I see more people using arc of ruin.

    Can we make Skewer and Skullcrusher builds without feeling like we are self-nerfing after these changes? Those are some nice-looking powers, but they aren't competitive. As has been said, the respective AoEs are too small to be decent for the purpose, and the damage is too low to stack up to Annihilate for a main attack.

    I would love to have those elemental effects options. Make them 3 pt advantages so you can't double-dip, but also bake in a damage increase (of that elemental type). Too often we get 2 pt adv that don't actually increase anything, you just pay through the nose to trade in some effects for new ones. I know, probably not gonna happen, but it seems like fun.




  • nickcave33nickcave33 Posts: 34 Arc User
    nickcave33 wrote: »
    Will we get a free respec with this? And yeah not sure about the CD on Brimstone.

    Usually everyone with a revamped powerset gets a free respec. It would be unusual for players not to get one with this revamp.

    ah cool thanks. did wonder, kinda low on Gold right now.
  • gammabreakergammabreaker Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    TL;DR - Some good stuff in here, glad to see the set being examined. Reckless amplification is interesting and a cool niche. 15' change is good for self-root powers, bad for everything else. Earthsplitter becomes 100% utility, which is fine. Cleave is absolutely gutted, which is not fine.



    General 10->15 ft. Range Adjustments: This is definitely useful for the self-rooting powers for a mob that occasionally scoots a few feet mid-charge because something was collision-box pushed or the AI did a two-step jig. It's a convenience for inconvenient powers.

    It is not necessary for the mobile powers though, and should be reverted on Bludgeon, Cleave, Eruption, Skullcrusher, and Arc of Ruin. You can already run around mobs clipping them easily with these powers, making the change unnecessary and at an expense of potency. Furthermore, because they have a 5 target cap, the additional range is unlikely to help in larger mob packs.



    Reckless
    Looks good.


    Earthsplitter
    -No Quarter requiring disorient is not in line with Arc of Ruin's iteration
    Earthsplitter is facing some pretty serious advantage bloat. The addition of an Engulfing Flames option is interesting. I understand that having No Quarter, Engulfing, and Clinging Flames all on separate advantages intentionally stop this from being a One Stop Debuff Shop, but with the change to Cleave, keeping your Clinging Flames rolling for Thermal Reverb that much more troublesome. Rather than undo the CF change to Earthsplitter, this reinforces my opinon on undoing the CF/damage changes to Cleave. Let this be a utility power, and Cleave be a high damage power.


    Vicious Descent
    -Increase cost, fold knockdown into base power
    The new Reckless amplifier is very unique. It's going new and interesting places, but it's starting to get a little advantage bloat so perhaps it's time to fold something else into the baseline.


    Annihilate
    Good changes. Like Skewer, the 15' range is a convenience against nudges and mobs doing the Hokey Pokey. The Knockup advantage is nice if a DPS has the points to spare and wants to inconvenience their group less if the damage isn't a finishing blow.


    Bludgeon
    It's an energy builder.


    Brimstone
    -Add a healing rune advantage as a melee mirror to Pyre
    I don't feel qualified to make other suggestions on this because I have an unpopular opinion: I have never cared for Brimstone spam, since the power was added to the game. This brings the power roughly in line with modern Havoc Stomp...but I don't see Havoc Stomp very often anymore. I defer to players more experienced with Brimstone.


    Eruption
    -Revert to 10'
    -Reckless Endangerment does not refresh Reckless
    Looks alright. Like other mobile powers, the 15' does not do much to improve Eruption. I'm neutral on the movement of Reckless to an advantage, but Reckless is getting a little harder to manage while becoming more important.


    Skewer
    -Add Wildfire advantage to provide optional synergy with Enraged/Pulverizer/TReverb/etc.
    -Increase cost in parity with Annihilate, scale up damage according to cost increase (still inferior to Anni, but better than where it is)
    S'alright. 15' is useful for mobs that get pushed, when you get pushed, or if a mob does the ol' two-step-shuffle for no reason. Unlike Skullcrusher, this one needs to stay relatively fast because of the root.


    Skullcrusher
    -Revert to 10'
    -Increase charge to 1.0, and cost/damage accordingly
    -Increase primary target damage, reduce secondary target damage, a la Skewer
    -Alternative suggestion: Convert to 10' Single Target, becoming a mobile alternative to Annihilate
    The changes are pretty positive on this one. All I want to see from it is some way to make it an alternative to Annihilate, and it's moving in that direction with the changes that push it toward parity with Skewer. Being a mobile power, it can afford to have its charge time slowed. The animation is great, and I really want a reason to use this power besides looking neat.

    One of the most desired things for HW over the years has been to have alternatives to Annihilate. Skullcrusher can do this. If it were a 10', mobile ST attack, with rough cost/damage parity to Annihilate BUT lacked the Knock-Immune bonus it would be potentially useful when heavily invested to.


    Cleave
    -Still a 10' reach
    -Third strike lists both Knock Back and Knock Down
    -Third strike deals unlisted fire damage
    -Third strike deals approximately same (combined) damage as second strike
    -Revert to 10'
    -Revert damage
    -Revert Clinging Flames removal/advantage
    -Increase cost per hit and damage
    Cleave is in a bad place here. Being a slow combo makes it one of the most punishing to use if you're interrupted (willingly or not). The 15' range also does little for the third strike, the most important strike: it's a 50-degree cone with a long activation. Cleave was originally billed as a rare full AOE combo, shared only with Dual Blades at the time (and advantaged BB). Now that combos are generally AOE, this demotes it to one of the worst combos in the game, when it should arguably be one of the best due to its long activations pushing out the final-hit combo payoff. Lastly, because the power is often used as a Clinging Flames applicator for Thermal Reverb in melee, moving Clinging Flames to an advantage effectively reduces the damage of the power even more by limiting it to Rank 2.

    In short, please roll this one back hard. It's positively gutted in both damage AND utility, and it should be second only to Bullet Ballet which is a longer combo and T2. Cleave could actually stand to have its cost increased to provide it more damage headroom.


    Arc of Ruin
    -Revert to 10'
    -Revert damage reduction
    -Retain increased energy cost and increase base damage
    Arc's damage has never been good, and now it's slightly worse at that. Its advantages make it valuable as a utility power. Because it is both spammable and mobile, the 15' alteration provides no particular benefit. The power could use a little pep in its step when being pushed to R3 instead of being used as a utility power.




    Overall commentary:
    Really happy to see Heavy Weapon get some attention! There are some interesting new options opening up, such as Earthsplitter becoming an even better utility power with Imaginary Weapons and Vicious Descent's supercharged Bastion shield. I am all for the 15' change to Annihilate and Skewer. I can not tell you how many times I have been nudged a couple feet out of range right before releasing, or had a mob backpedal because the AI pathing needed to reorient itself for an unknown reason. This will weed out the vast majority of those cases.

    I am aware that Skewer and Annihilate must retain their self-root because the subtorso apparently does some very strange things if allowed to animate, so this is an acceptable middleground.

    So while that's all good, the other 15' range changes look like they're coming at great expense to cost and utility, and the gain in actual usefulness is not proportionate. While it would be neat to have HW be the "long" melee set, it doesn't actually help the set. Cleave is the best example of this: I see almost no reason to use it for damage or utility in its PTS state. Other things do Clinging Flames better, without advantage points. Other things do Reckless Better. Other things do melee area damage better. Other things do melee knocks better. This is an extreme example; nothing else is hit as hard, but it highlights the unneeded broad stroke of 15'.

    Cleave complaints aside, I see a lot of nice tweaks here. Thank you for the work on the set!
    Post edited by gammabreaker on
  • andondarkmoreandondarkmore Posts: 634 Arc User
    Any changes or update information based on player feedback?
  • psychicslugpsychicslug Posts: 615 Arc User
    If Reckless is a thing for this set, instead of a cool down just have it consume Reckless or need a specific amount to do the ability then have to build it back to do it again. Mind you i am going of old COH that had powers that would do this, so not sure if possible in this game.
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 309 Arc User
    Oh, I just remembered. Now that Retaliation has the incredibly useful indomitable advantage for resistance, would it be possible to get a similar or even the same advantage on Guard, since the two blocks are virtually the same mechanically?
  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 994 Arc User
    In my opinion, the Devs are starting with HW to have a 15' reach because they can't figure any other way to counter Teleiosaur's RANGE BUG problem.

    Plus, the melee have to jostle each other so much at Dino, and some at Qwyjibo and Kigatilik. So, making ALL melee powers 15' will loosen up the pack positions at these Cosmics.​​
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  • lunnylunnylunnylunny Posts: 186 Arc User
    warcanch wrote: »
    In my opinion, the Devs are starting with HW to have a 15' reach because they can't figure any other way to counter Teleiosaur's RANGE BUG problem.

    Plus, the melee have to jostle each other so much at Dino, and some at Qwyjibo and Kigatilik. So, making ALL melee powers 15' will loosen up the pack positions at these Cosmics.​​

    I think you're overthinking. It's most likely just the fact you can't move with Annihilate, whereas other melee main attacks can, and then making the whole set 15ft makes sense so that the set doesn't feel awkward to play.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    The 15' range increase is actually pretty good considering HW is basically a self-rooting melee set. It's a nice way to sort of offset that drawback. That said, I do see a few things that I really hope get a second look:

    Annihilate: Would be better if it knocked up baseline, and back w/ advantage. Knockback is pretty cancer in just about any team setting.

    Brimstone: The 3 second cooldown really hurts this power and puts it into the same place Storm of Arrows was when it also had a similar CD--functionally useless as a proper, functional aoe.

    Cleave: As one of the few people who likes combos, I'm obligated to respond to this one in particular. Is the damage nerf really necessary, even if it's just a slight one? Between the loss of clinging flames and the damage reduction, this power's damage output is getting double-whammied, and that's not okay. In terms of raw output, it's already below some of the other combo powers, so the range increase isn't going to suddenly rocket it to the top. This is the kind of nerf that makes me reconsider even having a HW build in the first place. Cleave also, as others have mentioned, deals unlisted fire damage as part of its final hit, but this has been a thing since before the change. I suggest combining the fire damage with the main crushing damage so that it deals crushing damage only. Maybe the clinging flames advantage can add partial fire damage to all hits or something? Overall though, it'd probably be best if everything done to Cleave was undone.
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  • omnius#0640 omnius Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    retracted. The changes have won me over after lengthy testing

    Post edited by omnius#0640 on
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  • stratluverstratluver Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited January 2022
    wrong place

  • legionexxodlegionexxod Posts: 43 Arc User
    Great job on improving heavy weapons! I love to see the thought and effort going into improving powersets and increasing compatability with other powersets, the 15ft range makes sense big weapon = longer reach, this is an immersive change in my oppinion and i whole heartedly approve!
    That said, I would like to see more options available to increase cross compatability with powersets please. I have wanted to mix slashing damage with crushing but when it comes to choosing a debuf power theres nothing that helps with both (appart from overpower) also I've wanted to blend crushing with ice... again same problem.

    If nothing else there is one thing id like to see more than any other changes rightnow, and thats another hybrid form. the one from power armour (killing machine) looks promising at first but even if you rank it up, if you are fighting a boss you will loose all stacks rendering it pointless, please either rework this form or create an alternative that has a different mechanic to assist those of us changing the mixed range dream.... pretty please with a questionite cherry on top?

    Simple proc conditions could include: every time you complete a combo attack, and/or every time you Fully charge a melee or ranged attack. as for scaling just to be interesting (and also so its not overpowered) it could scale based on both strength and ego (unlike killing machine which is strength or ego) so having less of one of those stats would decrease its performance so we dont have an instant '80 of everyone in the game takes this power over anything else' this could even be the perfect fix for killing machine!
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