Is Force Framework Fubar?

jwilliamswku1

Maybe i'm not understanding the powerset correctly but what i'm seeing

builder is 50'
crushing wave 50'---so there is synergy here

force cascade 100' but it eats most of the energy, eats kinetic manipulation buff (making all my other powers crappy, while its on cooldown.
crushing wave does more damage than force cascade
force cascade leaves you with little to no energy left, so must still get within 50' to use energy builder

force eruption redundant with force detonation

never use force blast as other powers better dps like crushing wave

Force snap --- I really never have problems getting the enemy to me, its usually the reverse

Inertial dampening field-- at level 25 I have over 4k health---this power stops 50 at level 3---WUT


can someone please explain what I'm doing wrong, or is this really just the way it is?

theravenforce

The Force Power Set requires revision. It has since...like...forever.

It's well known that the few useful powers it has is limited to:

Force Geyser
Force Cascade
Protection Field
Force Detonation (maybe?)

I've suggested and outlined a revamp (linked in my sig).

IDF has "always" scaled quite badly. I think the highest I've bothered with it is...200 absorb? I can't remember.

So yeah, you're not doing anything wrong per se. It just doesn't play like other sets at all.

That's not to say you cannot have a very good damage cascade build, using Avenger Mastery w/ Force Blast and then follow up with Cascade.

But yeah, as I said, it requires revision.

aesica

You forgot Force Shield, which is also pretty awesome. But yeah, other than that, the set really does need help.

theravenforce

aesica wrote: »

You forgot Force Shield, which is also pretty awesome. But yeah, other than that, the set really does need help.

See, I debated it, but I think it could be a tiny bit better. But it does sort of "double" as the set's energy unlock so yeah (I love it tbh)

magpieuk2014

It's fine, as far as I can see. If you don't like KM being cancelled after using Force Cascade then just use Quarry.

Force Blast is perfectly serviceable with a low energy cost and endless spammability.

IDF is a flat "per attack" damage reduction to save you from being chipped apart by mobs, so it won't save you against bosses... Useful in lots of other things though.

avianos

The state of the powerframe currently is Bare Bones​​

magpieuk2014

It is quite a fun set of bones, though. Force Cascade and Gravity Driver have a great deal of Kaboom! about them

flowcyto

Yea, you can make a decent Force dps build w/o FC, but you'd want to use ranged Crushing debuffs from other sets to prop up Force Blast and make use of its knock-immune bonus. Still held back by blasts just being so weak at baseline, but it still can be pretty good despite that.

Force, like Might, is just a lopsided set atm. Some strong powers in there, but many flaws underneath.

jaazaniah1

The main thing is that you have to go out of set to get serviceability. E.g. Might gives you Unstoppable for the passive, Munitions gives you Frag Grenade or Burst Shot for crushing debuff. Etc. Is it fun to play? Heck yes! My FC spammer has no Con, just Ego, Rec and End and he has a blast soloing the nightmare baddies by knocking them all over the place and picking them off as they return. Don't need Con for that. Makes for a different kind of play style. I keep PFF on a 2nd build, just in case they ever make it end game viable.

If/when they revisit it you can bet there will be no 100' debuffs. The choice will be to have the debuff and use FC at 50', or get no debuff and stay at long rang.

spinnytop

jwilliamswku1 wrote: »

can someone please explain what I'm doing wrong, or is this really just the way it is?

Well the answer to the question in the title is no, it's not fubar. It's actually a pretty good powerset. So I dunno... you mentioned powers that you don't feel are useful. Are you using powers that you don't feel are useful? That'd be a place to start looking for the problem.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

If/when they revisit it

when.

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

you can bet there will be no 100' debuffs. The choice will be to have the debuff and use FC at 50', or get no debuff and stay at long rang.

That hasn't been consistent with any of the other ranged revamps, even sorcery has a power available for a 100ft debuff, and it certainly has access to 100ft debuff refreshers so there's no need to stay at 50 range. All other revamped ranged sets can dps from 100 range and keep their debuffs up. So uh... I wouldn't take that bet.

Personally I'm wondering if Force will even get a damage debuff since there are so many crushing debuffs already. Maybe they'll get a self-buff or something. Also I get the feeling FC dps might not be based around spamming FC.​​

jaazaniah1

What's the 100' debuff for munitions that a sniper can use?

spinnytop

jaazaniah1 wrote: »

What's the 100' debuff for munitions that a sniper can use?

Gatling Gun.​​

pantagruel01

spinnytop wrote: »

Personally I'm wondering if Force will even get a damage debuff since there are so many crushing debuffs already.​​

I would expect them to get a Demolish applier. No need for a new debuff.

theravenforce

Demolish itself might be made a little more specific to melee crushing damage, if that happened for some reason then we'd need a ranged crushing damage buff.

Would be an unnecessary limitation though.

I still like the idea of unique set debuffs for sets to take advantage of.

pantagruel01

theravenforce wrote: »

I still like the idea of unique set debuffs for sets to take advantage of.

Unique set mechanics are certainly possible, but we don't need more crushing debuffs. Haymaker builds can already apply Armor Piercing (-15%), Burn Through (-15%), Demolished (-12% and -6%), and No Quarter (-15%).

I like the containment mechanics I proposed here.

theravenforce

Yeah, I've had a read of that. Quite interesting, i'd prefer to do a bit more with the set, as I outlined in my thread (link in sig).

Either way, Force could be better and feel less gimmicky.

The original mechanics were mainly focused around knocks and attempted containment (and inverting that containment)...would need to be brought up to speed with "modern day" combat in CO.

I do like the sound of "Containment Breach" effects, but I'd not want to be "forced" to apply a containment effect to deal damage, whereas other 100ft sets don't really have such a potential limitation, if you will

aesica

theravenforce wrote: »

aesica wrote: »

You forgot Force Shield, which is also pretty awesome. But yeah, other than that, the set really does need help.

See, I debated it, but I think it could be a tiny bit better. But it does sort of "double" as the set's energy unlock so yeah (I love it tbh)

I'm not sure how it could be made better without making it OP. One could argue that, compared to TK shield, force shield is underwhelming. However, once you consider its "grants extra energy even via its linger advantage" vs TK shield's "offers better protection vs physical damage" it's easier to see how it's a fair tradeoff. In order to give force shield something more, you'd have to give up the extra energy returns.

magpieuk2014 wrote: »

IDF is a flat "per attack" damage reduction to save you from being chipped apart by mobs, so it won't save you against bosses... Useful in lots of other things though.

Unfortunately, in this game's stacking-form meta, IDF doesn't cut it because it makes you weaker overall and doesn't provide any bonus energy. It really should be repurposed into a support passive of some kind. Or maybe its effect could be combined with redirected force or something.