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A Criticism on the Premium Pack and Removal of Monthly Subscriptions

No mistake that this is a rather bold move. It does something right, and at the same time something very wrong. With all the current discussion going about how people 'feel' about the incoming changes, I figure I need to put in a proper public criticism of what's happening. So, let me start off by saying that if you want to post about the incoming changes here, do so with the intent of covering the ENTIRETY of it in a single post. No partial covers, no suggestions for it to change, and no flaming others in the post. We're here to show what we do and don't like and why without the need for directing anything at Cryptic, PWE, or any other player.

--

Let's start with what I think are the good things.

The pack itself offers many of the benefits of a subscription now for a single purchase within the Zen Store. This means that players who stick around and find themselves interested in opening up the game a bit more can access it without a subscription. Free costumes, character slots, power tinting, and much more is now available in a convenient bundle for 1500 Zen. If players don't want to spend on the benefits, they now have the option to instead invest their time into the game for what was once limited to a purchase. Let's review what the new Premium Pack offers:

- 2 Tokens to pick up something from the Gold Bonus Vendor
- 6 Character Slots
- Each character gets an extra Costume Slot
- 40 AH Slots
- Resource Cap Increase
- 3 of the 4 Extra Bag Slots
- Power Tinting, which includes Emanation Point and Pet Type Changing
- 13 Costume Sets that previously would have to be purchased individually or subscribed to the game to use
- 8 Thematic Travel Powers
- A couple of titles

All of this is available not with a persistent subscription, but a single purchasable Zen Store bundle that applies to the entire account. For those who have subscribed once before already, this bundle is even claimable for free. It's quite a bargain for what is asking to be paid.

Now for some of the more questionable changes happening.

No new subscriptions once these changes happen. What that means is the subscription model is being taken away from CO almost entirely. Those still actively paying can continue to do so and keep everything they get. No more need to maintain a recurring payment if what is in that bundle is to your liking. You can claim the majority of the subscription's benefits for free if you have ever subscribed at all to CO, so if you happen to lapse you get to keep a majority of what a subscription offers. While it's nice that most of the subscriptions bonuses are now available for a one-time purchase, there are parts of the subscription missing from it that once the option is removed are significantly less accessible.

And this is where anything I could possibly consider redeemable about this pack ends.

The one thing subscribers had available to them that will NOT appear in the bundle is the option for the bundle's character slots to be Freeform. One of the major selling points CO had was "be the hero you want to be." It's truly remarkable what CO allowed its players to do. Unfortunately, with the removal of future subscriptions, this limits the capability to go Freeform to those still subscribed and those willing to spend 5000 Zen on a single slot in the store. 5000 Zen is equivalent to $50 USD. That's quite a big deal for just a single character slot. I know that there are conversations ongoing about the potential to convert normal character slots to Freeform slots, but if a single Freeform slot is anything to go by it'll be similarly expensive to do so. That selling point I talked about earlier is now locked behind a massive paywall for good now, and this is one of the main reasons that this change is bad. The new tagline is more along the lines of "be a single hero you want to be for $50." Imagine what that means for potential new players. No more getting around it by subscribing for the "Freeform as a service" option, you HAVE to pay at minimum $50 for the potential to create a single unique character.

In addition to the above, for those that have their subscription lapse, they lose access to the Freeform characters they have that are using normal slots either until they pay the price for Lifetime or pay for however much the new conversion item will be, which is likely to be as expensive as a new Freeform slot. The other option is to remove the Freeform abilities made that character unique and force them into the class-based Archetype system which is incredibly rigid when it comes to choices.

Another change which is coming is the removal of the feature to gain a character slot for every character that reaches Lv40. I'm not too happy about this, but really I can't say I'm surprised. I have no clue what it takes to store hundreds of characters for a single account, but it certainly can't be healthy. While players get to keep the character slots they currently have, I am a little sad to know the amount of characters each individual is supposed to cap out on. I suppose many of us will have to live with the limit, even if it means we are eventually going to have to come to terms with removing some of the characters we like from our roster when new ideas arise.

--

So there. That's what I think about this whole thing. Remember, you are NOT here to flame or tell others what you want to happen. You're here to place your thoughts on what this change means in one single post. Go elsewhere to discuss the incoming change with your peers.​​
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Comments

  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    It is hard to call it anything other than putting a knife under the current and former monthly gold subscribers' throat. They really need to come up with a solution for locked Gold characters BEFORE june 7th. Subscribers and former subscribers NEED to know what are their options if they want to keep their characters before the monthly subscriptions are taken away.

    Currently the only options are:
    - converting their characters to Silver with all the downgrades it involves (going FF to AT, stupidly low ressource cap, customization restrictions etc...).
    - resub before the 7th and never cancel it.
    - buy a 200€ lifetime subscription for a game that is already at the end of its life...

    These options are completely unreasonable.
    Post edited by vylma on
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    If CO was a new game then the Premium Pack would be a great idea. Subscribing is awkward to do, requires a credit card or similar which younger players don't have, and gives access to far too much monetiseable content in one hit.

    The Premium pack encourages players who liked their two Silver characters to spend a little more to get lots of costumes and character slots, more than enough to play through all the Free ATs. Then, if they like that, they can spend a little more and unlock a Premium AT or two.... it's all cheap enough to be gifted, it's accessible and affordable.

    But... Everything in the game apart from the original levelling content has been balanced around Freeform characters. As of next week, that content and the knowledge of how to make good Freeforms (which you usually get by running multiple alts) is behind a massively expensive paywall. 5,000 Zen for 2 characters? £225 for an LTS + £7.50 a character slot? That's not a casual purchase and not something that parents are going to buy for their kids (I say that as a parent with a son who loves CO and who is going to be mightily annoyed by this), or a sum that many people will put down lightly.

    It's true that the changes aren't hugely dramatic for current subscribers. You lose the flexibility of taking a month or two out if you're bored. You have to pay 750z for a new character slot each time you want to make a new toon. Champions makes a little more money.

    The problem is that if newer players are pushed into either paying £50 for a Freeform slot or £200+ for an LTS for the full game then we're going to get even fewer players getting into the game for the long haul. The increased cost of making alts (and the cap on numbers) will make older players drop out and the lack of flexible subscriptions means people will leave and be unable to come back. And there aren't going to be anywhere near enough new players to make up for that.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited June 2018

    It's true that the changes aren't hugely dramatic for current subscribers. You lose the flexibility of taking a month or two out if you're bored. You have to pay 750z for a new character slot each time you want to make a new toon. Champions makes a little more money.


    How do you figure? current subscribers are now at permanent risk at losing their freeforms unless:

    1. They LTS
    2. They continue to pay monthly fees with the looming threat of it ending at any point for any reason (declined CC, glitch in the payment system, etc.) and be forced to pay $50 PER freeform character they want to salvage.

    That is about dramatic as it gets for current subs... especially considering the focus on freeform.
  • combatclown81combatclown81 Posts: 86 Arc User
    I have played this game since Beta. I purchased a lifetime sub almost as soon as it was available. Taking away the free character slot for every level 40 character means I will not be playing anymore. Good job Cryptic/PWE. You have lost a loyal player who defended almost every decision you ever made.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    I have played this game since Beta. I purchased a lifetime sub almost as soon as it was available. Taking away the free character slot for every level 40 character means I will not be playing anymore. Good job Cryptic/PWE. You have lost a loyal player who defended almost every decision you ever made.

    I'm in the same boat, except with a far younger LTS. So I didn't even get to make a whole lot of use out of it.. thankfully I did manage to get around 3 toons maxed before the recent double xp week ended.. but I hardly see how that matters with these changes going through. Can't see the game surviving this change. It's a borderline scandal...
  • dixa1dixa1 Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Some things I think people are not actually understanding here.

    The game is going from f2p with a sub option to f2p with a one time purchase option. That one time purchase is just giving you everything you get with your monthly sub, for 1500 zen or approx 15 dollars.

    There is nothing extra special in that box. Those who have been subbed for a long time probably just dont realize that all came with gold

    The thing that is missing here is that one time purchase NEEDS to give you one freeform slot. Freeform is what separates this game from DCUO. DCUO has a substantially larger player base and more market presence than CO.

    The cost of freeform slots needs to be halved, and the silver to freeform conversion they are proposing can not be more than $10 equivalent.

    If this change had gone live today, the game would bleed a ton of people who may have just taken a short break and are not keeping up with the news and turned off their sub and any hope of bringing in new blood would be gone entirely. The majority of the pre built at's are insufficient just to do the 1-40 leveling if you have no prior experience with the game. The ones that are great in the late 30's are annoyingly squishy in the more-important-to-a-new-player early game, or those that are tough early on lose a lot of steam later. All of the free AT's give you too many, mostly redundant attacks and not enough defensive options.

    In order for this pack to be a gateway to more cash shop purchases, it needs to include a freeform slot.
  • bombermangoldbombermangold Posts: 29 Arc User
    It needs to include multiple freeform slots and to NOT punish people who are just simply subscribed and it lapses, especially if they have quite a number of Gold-slot characters.
    Because otherwise that's a good guarantee to lose folks.
  • blockwaveblockwave Posts: 329 Arc User
    Super disapointed about those changes.

  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    dixa1 wrote: »
    If this change had gone live today, the game would bleed a ton of people who may have just taken a short break and are not keeping up with the news and turned off their sub and any hope of bringing in new blood would be gone entirely. The majority of the pre built at's are insufficient just to do the 1-40 leveling if you have no prior experience with the game. The ones that are great in the late 30's are annoyingly squishy in the more-important-to-a-new-player early game, or those that are tough early on lose a lot of steam later. All of the free AT's give you too many, mostly redundant attacks and not enough defensive options.
    The returning subscribers would have the nasty surprise to discover that all their characters are now locked behind a $200 lifetime subscription pay wall.
    dixa1 wrote: »
    In order for this pack to be a gateway to more cash shop purchases, it needs to include a freeform slot.
    But we need more than than, we need a reasonable way to unlock our old gold characters. A $200 pay wall isn't a reasonable option.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    They've been in talks about this for over a year, but kept it secret until 6 days before it's dumped on us.

    Nice consideration for the playerbase in general and for those who have continued to support the game financially and otherwise, not only during that time but also during the heavy drought years we had.
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  • diggotdiggot Posts: 309 Arc User
    dixa1 wrote: »

    The cost of freeform slots needs to be halved, and the silver to freeform conversion they are proposing can not be more than $10 equivalent.

    Are you completely mad!?. 10$ to make your FF-character playable..
    Do you have ANY idea how stupid this suggestion is at all?. Imagine players with 30-40 characters
    that comes back to the game, or by accident fails to pay the sub for a month.
    They will be forced to pay hundreds of dollars if they want to play their characters again.

    This whole thing with FF's not being available anymore, and no more free char-slots at 40, STINKS GREED.

    I have about 30 FF's myself, and there is no way in hell i would EVER consider paying 10$ per character
    to free them up again... much less paying RANSOM to PWE of 200$ now.. to be able to play the game
    that hasn't had any proper support for years.

    This is nothing but pure extortion.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    That Premium pack should be changed to unlock all characters that were made while a subscription was active.
  • bombermangoldbombermangold Posts: 29 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    That Premium pack should be changed to unlock all characters that were made while a subscription was active.

    That would alleviate a LOT of the current frustrations, but also sounds like it makes too much Quality-of-life sense.
    Then again, hate it when corporate does these things to the consumers...
  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    diggot wrote: »
    dixa1 wrote: »

    The cost of freeform slots needs to be halved, and the silver to freeform conversion they are proposing can not be more than $10 equivalent.

    Are you completely mad!?. 10$ to make your FF-character playable..
    Do you have ANY idea how stupid this suggestion is at all?. Imagine players with 30-40 characters
    that comes back to the game, or by accident fails to pay the sub for a month.
    They will be forced to pay hundreds of dollars if they want to play their characters again.

    This whole thing with FF's not being available anymore, and no more free char-slots at 40, STINKS GREED.

    I have about 30 FF's myself, and there is no way in hell i would EVER consider paying 10$ per character
    to free them up again... much less paying RANSOM to PWE of 200$ now.. to be able to play the game
    that hasn't had any proper support for years.

    This is nothing but pure extortion.
    It's worse than that. I've got an AT among the characters I made during my subscription time and guess what, he's locked as well just like my Freeform ones. But I can buy a token to turn my gold AT into a silver AT... Yes even your AT characters are locked if you created them when you were a subscriber. This is madness.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    The hope is that they're not completely nuts and they actually do something to ensure that people keep access to their FFs.

    Now here's the thing: It is not unfair to expect people to pay for the ability to keep access to their FFs after their sub ends.

    After all, you've been paying to have access to them for the entirety of your sub, so there's no reason access to them should now suddenly come free. Think of it like you're renting a house, and the people renting it to you decide they no longer want to rent it but want to sell it instead - the fair thing there is that they offer to let you buy the house. The same holds true here.

    There's no reason to be outraged that they expect you to pay for something that you've happily been paying for all this time. The expectation here, or mine at least, is that there would be a discounted method for converting characters that were previously part of a sub. If you continued to play the game for another 3 years as a subbed player you'd be paying around $540. So if you have 50 characters, and the price for conversion is 10 dollars apiece, you would technically be paying less than you would have as a sub. Personally I would go lower than 10 dollars. In fact I would just make a one time purchase that converts all your previously subbed characters for something like 50 bucks, since you don't pay your sub fee on a per-character basis, so these conversions shouldn't be per-character either. That's a little over 3 months worth of sub fees.

    What I really find troubling is that they don't already have something like this in place. Making the announcement and then looking into it has no doubt lead to a lot of hand-wringing as people ponder the possibility that they might lose their entire stable of FFs just because they couldn't afford to continue their sub one month.
  • nadazdynadazdy Posts: 66 Arc User
    As a lifer, I liked to spend my time making new characters. Even though I no longer paid to play, I did sometimes plunk money down to buy costume sets or whatever might wander down the pipe that I was interested in. Since I'll soon run out of slots because of this move, I'll have far less interest in playing, and will be much less likely to buy new costume sets or anything else for that matter. Why buy new stuff when I don't have new characters to use them on? I don't know, I may not be in the trenches working on this game nor own the servers, but this comes across as a poor decision. It may be time to find something else to play.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    As a lifer I'm not too happy about losing the ability to gain a slot every time I hit 40. Seems like a really big slap in the face.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • somebobsomebob Posts: 980 Arc User
    Cryptic, this game dies without the ability to make Freeform characters. I'm sorry to say, but it's true.

    And it's a massive, giant slap in the face to all of those people who have subscribed in the past, who now have exactly ONE option - buy Lifetime, or else you lose ALL of your Freeform characters (because remember, you CAN'T transfer a character into a Freeform slot! It HAS to be new!).

    I for one have no problem losing out on getting a free character at 40. And I have no problems 'unlocking' most of the subscriber bonuses for 1500 Zen. But losing access to Freeforms?

    CO WILL DIE.

    I'm sorry. But 'make the hero you want to be!' is what CO IS.

    Or soon won't be.
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  • werx138werx138 Posts: 28 Arc User
    I've had a subscription lapse in the past due to an expired credit card. It cost me a discounted monthly subscription, so I stopped subscribing until they offered the discounted rate again. I haven't allowed it to lapse since despite taking a break that lasted close to a year (except for logging on each month to get the monthly reward).

    I just started playing pretty heavily again in the last couple months, but if my subscription lapses after the switch I will not be back. Just for shits-n-giggles I considered picking up the discounted LTS, but when I went to my account I discovered that it isn't even in my list of subscription options. Oh well, no temptation to make a decision that I would probably end up regretting in the near future.

    I've always preferred the monthly subs over LTS options because I (mistakenly?) believe publishers have more incentive to keep monthly subscribers happy than the people who make a one-time payment. I know it costs me more in the long run, but I like to think it will actually be used to maintain and improve the game.

    I also buy a lot of Zen ($50-$200 worth/month) when I'm actively playing. That won't be happening anymore either -- there's too much risk of loss if my sub lapses. I've ridden a number of MMOs to the bitter end and the one thing they all had in common was making decisions like this that alienate a large part of the paying player base.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    somebob wrote: »
    But losing access to Freeforms?

    Um. Freeform isn't going away. People will still have access to freeforms.
  • stealthriderstealthrider Posts: 86 Arc User
    This is exactly what we complained about when CO went F2P originally, and our complaints fell on deaf ears. Say goodbye to your freeforms, don't bet on Cryptic changing things now. They had 7 years to change things for those of us that played pre-F2P, and they didn't.

    Don't worry, I and the myriad others that complained for weeks back then feel your pain. It won't change anything ,though, and this will likely end CO for good much like going F2P dropped the playerbase substantially in the first place.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Say goodbye to your freeforms

    My freeforms aren't going anywhere though. Also, this change means that sub players were probably a very small percentage of the population, and most people get their FFs via LTS or slots.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Say goodbye to your freeforms

    My freeforms aren't going anywhere though. Also, this change means that sub players were probably a very small percentage of the population, and most people get their FFs via LTS or slots.

    This is absolutely untrue. I am a LTS, but everyone I play with is not. And they are all losing multiple FF toons that they've obtained through gold status. Also, the assumption that this is indicative of a low sub-count is based on nothing but assumption so we by no means have to presume that is the case; especially considering that I am the only one I know of from my group that has a LTS. The vast majority of players seem to be running gold.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    folv#5303 wrote: »
    This is absolutely untrue. I am a LTS, but everyone I play with is not. And they are all losing multiple FF toons that they've obtained through gold status.

    I doubt you know a significant portion of the playerbase. Also, why are your friends choosing to end their subs now, when it means losing their characters? Doesn't make sense to me.
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,391 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Also, this change means that sub players were probably a very small percentage of the population, and most people get their FFs via LTS or slots.

    Yes, plus they're probably under the delusion that free character slots are lost sales opportunities.
  • stealthriderstealthrider Posts: 86 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    folv#5303 wrote: »
    This is absolutely untrue. I am a LTS, but everyone I play with is not. And they are all losing multiple FF toons that they've obtained through gold status.

    I doubt you know a significant portion of the playerbase. Also, why are your friends choosing to end their subs now, when it means losing their characters? Doesn't make sense to me.

    I used to know a significant portion of the playerbase. You know, those of us that played pre-F2P, weren't LTS and got told that if we ever stopped subbing, despite the game going F2P, our characters would be locked. That despite having purchased the game for its box price, we'd get not even a single freeform slot post-conversion. That we couldn't even convert our characters with the massively overpriced freeform slot. We all complained, it resulted in nothing.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    spinnytop wrote: »
    folv#5303 wrote: »
    This is absolutely untrue. I am a LTS, but everyone I play with is not. And they are all losing multiple FF toons that they've obtained through gold status.

    I doubt you know a significant portion of the playerbase. Also, why are your friends choosing to end their subs now, when it means losing their characters? Doesn't make sense to me.

    What is the alternative? Pay $15 a month until they can't, and THEN lose all their characters. Pay $200 to secure their characters. Or end the sub and buy each individual freeform character slot for $50 a piece. There are no viable options offered. How is this resulting in their leaving surprising?

    Edit: By characters, I obviously am referring to "freeform" in this case.
  • mrlunkovichmrlunkovich Posts: 59 Arc User
    Time to remind Cryptic they have people above them: parent company Perfect World International overseas relations department global@wanmei.com , employee complaint department wubijubao@wanmei.com

    Remind them that this is not their private little plaything but a product we pay for and they are employed to provide.
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  • iamruneiamrune Posts: 965 Arc User
    folv#5303 wrote: »

    It's true that the changes aren't hugely dramatic for current subscribers. You lose the flexibility of taking a month or two out if you're bored. You have to pay 750z for a new character slot each time you want to make a new toon. Champions makes a little more money.


    How do you figure? current subscribers are now at permanent risk at losing their freeforms unless:

    1. They LTS
    2. They continue to pay monthly fees with the looming threat of it ending at any point for any reason (declined CC, glitch in the payment system, etc.) and be forced to pay $50 PER freeform character they want to salvage.

    That is about dramatic as it gets for current subs... especially considering the focus on freeform.

    Currently there is no way to "salvage" a single freeform character back to gold status if your sub runs out. It's LT or siler conversion only. That's what I take issue with.
  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    folv#5303 wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    folv#5303 wrote: »
    This is absolutely untrue. I am a LTS, but everyone I play with is not. And they are all losing multiple FF toons that they've obtained through gold status.

    I doubt you know a significant portion of the playerbase. Also, why are your friends choosing to end their subs now, when it means losing their characters? Doesn't make sense to me.

    What is the alternative? Pay $15 a month until they can't, and THEN lose all their characters. Pay $200 to secure their characters. Or end the sub and buy each individual freeform character slot for $50 a piece. There are no viable options offered. How is this resulting in their leaving surprising?

    Edit: By characters, I obviously am referring to "freeform" in this case.
    Not just freeform, all your Gold characters. AT can be Gold too if you created them during your subscription time.
  • stealthriderstealthrider Posts: 86 Arc User
    iamrune wrote: »
    folv#5303 wrote: »

    It's true that the changes aren't hugely dramatic for current subscribers. You lose the flexibility of taking a month or two out if you're bored. You have to pay 750z for a new character slot each time you want to make a new toon. Champions makes a little more money.


    How do you figure? current subscribers are now at permanent risk at losing their freeforms unless:

    1. They LTS
    2. They continue to pay monthly fees with the looming threat of it ending at any point for any reason (declined CC, glitch in the payment system, etc.) and be forced to pay $50 PER freeform character they want to salvage.

    That is about dramatic as it gets for current subs... especially considering the focus on freeform.

    Currently there is no way to "salvage" a single freeform character back to gold status if your sub runs out. It's LT or siler conversion only. That's what I take issue with.

    You and every other former sub from back before the F2P conversion. We got told, flatly, either sub or don't play, despite the game supposedly going F2P. Guess which one most of us chose? It'll be the same thing again, only this time it'll likely be worse as the few remaining holdouts will certainly not stand for this happening *again*.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    The way I see it, the following should happen:

    1. Anyone with an active subscription on or before a certain date (like, before this change was announced) should keep the gold slots they have. This kind of thing really should be grandfathered in so those folks don't feel (rightfully so) cheated out of the characters they've worked on.

    2. Freeform slot costs should be dropped to $20-$25 base.

    3. As someone else in another thread said, LTS should keep the ability to gain new character slots up to 59. After that, buying slots should be an option.

    That said, I feel like this whole sub-removal system wasn't very well thought out for CO due to how heavily-emphasized the subscription model is in this game.

    - - -

    Another thought: Instead of what I said above, maybe it's a good time to just give everyone freeform, no strings attached. ATs could still be an option (easier to build and cheaper to respec) but with the sub model going away, and freeform being one of this game's biggest selling points, it seems like a weird move to just take it away from the monthly sub half of the playerbase.

    Besides, think of all the $retcon respecs$ this might generate.​​
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    I don't kmow if i should hate or like the Character Costume Slots change.
    Someone math it to me for 50something alts:#
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  • stealthriderstealthrider Posts: 86 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    The way I see it, the following should happen:

    1. Anyone with an active subscription on or before a certain date (like, before this change was announced) should keep the gold slots they have. This kind of thing really should be grandfathered in so those folks don't feel (rightfully so) cheated out of the characters they've worked on.

    2. Freeform slot costs should be dropped to $20-$25 base.

    3. As someone else in another thread said, LTS should keep the ability to gain new character slots up to 59. After that, buying slots should be an option.

    That said, I feel like this whole sub-removal system wasn't very well thought out for CO due to how heavily-emphasized the subscription model is in this game.

    - - -

    Another thought: Instead of what I said above, maybe it's a good time to just give everyone freeform, no strings attached. ATs could still be an option (easier to build and cheaper to respec) but with the sub model going away, and freeform being one of this game's biggest selling points, it seems like a weird move to just take it away from the monthly sub half of the playerbase.

    Besides, think of all the $retcon respecs$ this might generate.​​

    Same argument was used back then, didn't work. It's what I'd love to see but it's likely seven years too late for that.

  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,537 Arc User
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    I don't kmow if i should hate or like the Character Costume Slots change.
    Someone math it to me for 50something alts:#
    [New]
    2 Slots (Character) @ 150: 75 per slot
    5 Slots (Character) @ 300: 60 per slot

    [Current]
    1 Slot (Character) @ 175: 175 per slot (eww)
    2 Slots (Account) @ 565: (282.5 / totalCharacters) per slot

    Obviously the new pricing is a straight upgrade for single character costume slot purchases in any situation. If you have more than 5 characters, the 2 account-wide slots becomes the best deal (but only if you actually want to use +2 slots on every character)

    The account-wide 2 slot purchase for 50 characters has a fantastic value of 5.65 per slot, which is a great deal and will be sorely missed.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    aesica wrote: »
    The way I see it, the following should happen:

    1. Anyone with an active subscription on or before a certain date (like, before this change was announced) should keep the gold slots they have. This kind of thing really should be grandfathered in so those folks don't feel (rightfully so) cheated out of the characters they've worked on.​​
    Nope, I've been subbed for 3 years give or take and just because I haven't subbed this year I gonna lose everything while someone who subbed 3 or 4 months this year in total gets to keep everything? I've spent more than a LTS worth of $ on this game and I would get less than some who subbed for three month? Sure.

    At this point I'm even considering reactivating my sub before the 6th just to have one more month to decide what to do. And I would be punished because I didn't reactivate my sub before they announced that backstabbing move they pulled out of no where?
  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    As a LTSer, this doesn't impact me all that much. And I feel really bad for all the silver players and gold players that will be going. The loss of all their normal slot free forms...will suck. There is no other way to put it. I hope they figure something out that isn't expensive.

    The only thing that I do not like about the changes was the costume slot purchase changes. As someone that has something like 180 characters/slots, the +2 costume slots for the entire account was awesome. And I heard the costume cap for a single toon is somewhere around 350 (doubt this is true, as I have never seen any official statement on this cap). So, while the +5 option is better in terms of affordability and getting to the cap faster, in the end it becomes the more expensive option for players like me with lots of toons that they frequently give new costumes to. Which is why they might have done it, doing this would bring in more money for them (at least, they hope). And, that is fine, PWE and Cryptic are busnisses, they want to make money. But, I wouldn't mind a +5 costume slots for the account, even if it cost like 1500 zen. I say 1500 zen, for if they priced it more, it would quickly be worse than the current +2 model (565 x 3 is 1695).

    Otherwise, they made a good move with the pack (I've seen people ask for something like this, but, this is not what they were asking for), that will have huge negetive affects due to the lockout of freeforms for people that do not have free form slots and/or are not LTS or still subscribed. The move they made with the costume slots, I am happy about the single slot becoming a two slot for cheaper, but, not happy about the 2 slot for the account becoming a 5 slot for one character option. I would be happy if Cryptic met us in the middle and gave us a +5 account option.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    soulforger wrote: »
    As a LTSer, this doesn't impact me all that much. And I feel really bad for all the silver players and gold players that will be going. The loss of all their normal slot free forms...will suck. There is no other way to put it. I hope they figure something out that isn't expensive.

    The only thing that I do not like about the changes was the costume slot purchase changes. As someone that has something like 180 characters/slots, the +2 costume slots for the entire account was awesome. And I heard the costume cap for a single toon is somewhere around 350 (doubt this is true, as I have never seen any official statement on this cap). So, while the +5 option is better in terms of affordability and getting to the cap faster, in the end it becomes the more expensive option for players like me with lots of toons that they frequently give new costumes to. Which is why they might have done it, doing this would bring in more money for them (at least, they hope). And, that is fine, PWE and Cryptic are busnisses, they want to make money. But, I wouldn't mind a +5 costume slots for the account, even if it cost like 1500 zen. I say 1500 zen, for if they priced it more, it would quickly be worse than the current +2 model (565 x 3 is 1695).

    Otherwise, they made a good move with the pack (I've seen people ask for something like this, but, this is not what they were asking for), that will have huge negetive affects due to the lockout of freeforms for people that do not have free form slots and/or are not LTS or still subscribed. The move they made with the costume slots, I am happy about the single slot becoming a two slot for cheaper, but, not happy about the 2 slot for the account becoming a 5 slot for one character option. I would be happy if Cryptic met us in the middle and gave us a +5 account option.

    I hate to jump all over you for what for all intents and purposes is a fairly calm and reasonable post, but hopefully you can see that the only reason you "only do not like" the costume slot change as an isolated issue is because it happens to be the only thing that directly affects you. (I am in the same boat as an LTS). Understand that all of these changes are equally, and some far more, detrimental to the games playerbase even if it doesn't directly effect us as LTS players. I am not so narrow-sighted as to not see how dramatically this effects everyone else; and I doubt you are either. In many ways, I'm sure you'll likely agree with that sentiment so I won't go to overboard here. But I just want to make you and other LTS aware that this change should not be solely looked at through the lens of how it effects our particular account status, but rather be keen to observe how it will damage the community as a whole (especially in an MMO where other players are basically essential to the core game experience). There is almost no change happening here that doesn't result in less value for the gamer/consumer, and more value for the company through the process of gouging it's player base by way or limiting pre-existing methods of obtaining content (like freeform slots and character slotss) and makes way for new players in the process by offering them a better deal on what most of us forked out hundreds of dollars for. Don't get me wrong, the pack in and of itself is not the worst thing as it likely will offer a more affordable (a more complete) purchase for newcomers. But doing so at the expense of preexisting players should be highly discouraged by every player in this game currently.
  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    Indeed the premium pack isn't a problem, the real issue is that they're about to break a lot of features just to make room for it.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    My only issue is people potentially losing all their FFs if their sub ends. That doesn't effect me at all, it just seems like a huge oversight. Everything else in this is just prices and options shifting around and people griping about that are just being a Stewie.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    spinnytop wrote: »
    My only issue is people potentially losing all their FFs if their sub ends. That doesn't effect me at all, it just seems like a huge oversight. Everything else in this is just prices and options shifting around and people griping about that are just being a Stewie.

    The freeform issue is the most expensive change for players without question, which is why it is such a massive concern. But the other change that is resulting in further cost inefficiency for players (Both gold and LTS) is the character slot unlock. This was a feature that use to exist without the need to spend any money; and now it costs an extreme amount (The purchase of a character slot PLUS the addition of a FF slot if you choose to go that route; which nearly everyone would). So this isn't just a matter of shifting prices, not in the slightest. If that were the case, I'd agree with you entirely. The issue is the creating of further artificial costs for things that were accessible prior to this update without the need to spend additional money. That is a massive change no matter how you look at it.
  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    I wonder, when you purchased your LTS was it specified in the terms of use that they could change the associated benefits of your LTS at their leisure? Because it looks a lot like a breach of contract.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    vylma wrote: »
    I wonder, when you purchased your LTS was it specified in the terms of use that they could change the associated benefits of your LTS at their leisure? Because it looks a lot like a breach of contract.

    As with any online game, I am sure these changes are protected under the user license agreement. That does't justify the changes to be certain, though.
  • vylmavylma Posts: 61 Arc User
    Modifications maybe, but restricting their rights? It's not just a modification they are putting new restrictions on the LTS associated services.
  • folv#5303 folv Posts: 96 Arc User
    vylma wrote: »
    Modifications maybe, but restricting their rights? It's not just a modification they are putting new restrictions on the LTS associated services.

    Far be it from me to start defending anything about this change, but what rights are being restricted? As far as I am aware, there is nothing that was made available to LTS that is being removed from them. Rather, it's being more widely distributed outside of LTS, and the value of LTS is going down by way of changing the payment policies offered by the game (I.E. monthly subs no longer exist so you aren't saving money on sub fees, legacy content will now be made available to more than just LTS). The character slot unlock problem was a feature that existed for all accounts, F2P included. So I imagine that can be changed on a whim without consequence even though it is a very distasteful move.

    While on the subject, I honestly can't see one reasonably beneficial reason to justify spending $200-$300 on a LTS after this update when compared to the previous payment model. It quite literally only exists as a way to protect your account from having content permanently locked behind a massive paywall ($50 per FF to secure them without LTS).
  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    My only issue is people potentially losing all their FFs if their sub ends. That doesn't effect me at all, it just seems like a huge oversight.

    To me, that's the canary in the coalmine. To quote ambassadorkael (emphasis mine):
    The team is also looking into the possibility of creating an item down the road that will be able to convert those silver slots into freeform slots, but that might be a bit.

    That screams out to me that this decision had no basis in this game's finances, population, purchase patterns, or existing policies. Otherwise, the need for those conversion tokens would have been recognized, and they'd be in place for the changeover. This was unilaterally imposed by management because the numbers work for STO, and we're already seeing signs that the numbers absolutely do not work for CO. This is a massive mistake, and it's likely to be a fatal one.
    Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
    They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
  • yvonnedyvonned Posts: 147 Arc User
    I've been a sub player for years, and I have no delusions regarding my sub lapsing. So, rather than bemoan the coming changes, I'm trying to prepare for them. I want to continue playing. Yes, I will be looking for those conversion tokens to change silver to freeform, as well as anything else that helps regain me access to my 30+ gold toons. In the mean time, I have to prepare for playing ATs from level 1 as if I were starting all over from scratch. I don't mean buying costumes or anything, but gear.

    I didn't read anything in the notes for the Premium Pack regarding changes that affect Hideouts. I've also never played when my sub lapsed. Will my characters continue to have access to my hideouts even after my sub lapses? (I have purchased several). I have several sets of heirloom gear that new toons can wear. I simply don't know if they'll be able to access them in the hideout.

    There's a lot of concern about costume slots. For me, each toon that has reached level 40 only has 7 slots. I know a brand new toon, has 4 or 5. Will this continue to be the case when my sub lapses and I purchase new slots?
  • rfd123rfd123 Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Wow... looks like I picked an interesting time to come back to the game.
    I had to stop playing before the switch from Cryptic, so I guess basically all my stored gold toons are Freeform
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,317 Arc User
    Time to remind Cryptic they have people above them: parent company Perfect World International overseas relations department global@wanmei.com , employee complaint department wubijubao@wanmei.com

    Remind them that this is not their private little plaything but a product we pay for and they are employed to provide.
    Star Trek Online implemented something very like this a month ago. I haven't played much NW, but my understanding is that they've had it from the get-go.

    Perfect World is also reportedly closing down some of their older games on Monday.

    And you think they're unaware of what's going on with one of their games? That's cute.

    (Oh, and Cryptic isn't employed to provide anything for us; they're employed to provide profit for PWI. When that stops happening, so does the publisher support. It's nice that you feel so important, though.)
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,649 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    folv#5303 wrote: »
    *Snip due to lengthly paragraph that could have been cut into smaller ones.*

    Well, you missed some of the points I made. I did in fact noted that the move was a bad one, and that the worse part was how it affected people that were not ltsers. So, most of your post was actually not even needed. Otherwise, thanks for staying civil.

    As for the loss of the free character slots. Sorry, but as someone with 180 or so character slots...I do not need more, even free ones. In fact, I remember a long time ago (back when the game launched), that someone told me the game actually did have a character slot limit, and that was why I couldn't purchase anymore (I got this info from support). Yes, I puchased around 60 character slots. Yes, they are all full. I have around 180 character slots with around 176 toons...actually, I think I'm closer to 190 slots than I realize. In truth, there is, most likely, a bug that prevented the game from enforcing this cap, which is why people like me have so many freaking toons. In reality, we shouldn't have so many character slots, no matter how much fun we have making toons. So, while sad to see the free character slots go, I am not sad to see the cap being enforced, if that was enforced from the beginning, this would not even really be much of a discussion point.
    vylma wrote: »
    I wonder, when you purchased your LTS was it specified in the terms of use that they could change the associated benefits of your LTS at their leisure? Because it looks a lot like a breach of contract.

    I payed enough attention back than that I did indeed see something along that line.

    As for restrictions on LTS...well, the only thing I noticed being chaged was the free character slot with hitting level 40.
    That screams out to me that this decision had no basis in this game's finances, population, purchase patterns, or existing policies. Otherwise, the need for those conversion tokens would have been recognized, and they'd be in place for the changeover. This was unilaterally imposed by management because the numbers work for STO, and we're already seeing signs that the numbers absolutely do not work for CO. This is a massive mistake, and it's likely to be a fatal one.

    Agreed, this sounded more as a surprise to even the devs.
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