Make Thundering Kick's 'Lithe' Bonus 15 Seconds Again

championsrper

I'm not just trying to sound whiny, I'm serious about this, it needs to be changed back.

I'm really not sure why this ever got changed in the first place from 15 down to 12. 3 seconds may seem completely arbitrary to someone who's never tried to Dodge Tank at a Cosmic, but for those of us who do so regularly, 3 extra seconds of not getting 1-shotted is a pretty important buffer.

Its not like Thundering Kicks was OP. Its not like Dodge Tanks are the overly dominant Tank in the metagame (*cough*Defiant*cough). I get nerfing Form of the Master, it was broken AF and needed to get fixed. That I can adapt to.

But all the changes did to Dodge Tanks was make it even HARDER for them to be relevant anywhere but as a gimmick in casual PvE. Dodge Tanking at Cosmics was already hard enough without you nerfing the amount of time I have to do real damage and try to hold aggro.

The damage on Thundering Kicks just plain sucks compared to any other combo power. All making it an AoE did was make it cost more energy and do even less damage.

Defiant tanking is easy. Same for Invulnerability. They block a couple big attacks and throw out some damage in between. I know, I've done it. It's easy and boring. Anyone with some Merc gear, R6 Con and Strength mods, Enrage and a Haymaker can Main Tank if they know how to block.

All I need to get 100% Dodge at Kigatilik is a complete set of gear maxed out for Dexterity with all R9 Mods and Dodge Chance buffs including a Veteran's Core for the extra 0.1% to not be at 99.9%

But yknow... screw Dodge Tanks, they don't need that extra 3 seconds...

blockwave

Please do, it's not like Dodge Tanking is easy,

kamokami

It's not like main tanking with Defiance or Invulnerability is easy either. Otherwise you'd see a lot more people doing it. It might be easy for a few people, but for most it's pretty hard.

pantagruel01

kamokami said:

It's not like main tanking with Defiance or Invulnerability is easy either.

Having done both fairly extensively: dodge tanking is easier than defiance tanking on some content, harder on others. I've pretty much given up on dodge tanking Teleiosaurus and Qwyjibo is way harder with dodge than with Defiance, but for warzone OM bosses dodge is IME easier.

However, the factors that make dodge tanking easier or harder don't have much to do with the duration of the Lithe buff. The main issue is that you can't achieve 100% dodge consistently without Elusive Monk, and Elusive Monk is a short duration buff triggered by making melee attacks, so if you have to break contact (dodging geysers at Eidolon, getting repelled by Qwyjibo) or block extensively (baby bubble spam at Teleiosaurus) it drops off, and a primary cosmic unsplit attack (120k) will kill a dodge tank if blocked but not dodged, and (depending on setup) may also kill if dodged but not blocked.

jaazaniah1

I always thought we didn't see many tanks because most people like to pew-pew-pew dps?

kamokami said:

It's not like main tanking with Defiance or Invulnerability is easy either. Otherwise you'd see a lot more people doing it. It might be easy for a few people, but for most it's pretty hard.

morigosa

For the record here, my dodge tank does* okay at Teleiosaurus (though she -does- still need soak tanks.) The key is that she actually has two block replacers; Parry with Elusive Monk for normal content, and Fluidity rank two with Flow Like The River for cosmics. Since she's (just barely) got 75% dodge without buffs, she can turtle with fluidity up and still have 100% dodge even when Lithe falls off. Of course, then you have to -stay- turtled until you get an opening where you know you won't be hit for long enough to get through a full thundering kicks combo... but at least with dino, that is doable.

* Edit: Or did. I haven't actually tried since Lithe went to a twelve second duration. The timing might be more obnoxious now.

Ape, by contrast, I won't tank on her. That fight is just -nope- for a dodge tank; the lava pools ignore resistance and can't be dodged, so you basically have to never get clipped by lava ever, or stack far more constitution than her build can afford. (Though I think it might actually be doable these days? I seem to remember the fire breath not dropping super-lava pools in melee anymore?)

As for easy... it's somewhat relative. Even in the places where dodge tanking is "easy" compared to defiance, it also has a vastly higher cost of entry. A good defiance build in blues with rank five mods is going to find the going a bit rough, but doable; a dodge build in the same level of gear will simply not function.

(Well... mostly not function? At least in theory, someone with only 70% base dodge chance could take fluidity to rank three, ignore thundering kicks, and just block for every hit. They'd risk getting one-shot if they failed to block in time - but then, that's no different than anyone else trying to tank cosmics at comparatively low gear levels.)

** Edit2: And the above is all kindof a tangent, isn't it? No, I'm not happy with the changes that were made to Thundering Kicks either; it takes a finicky and maintainence-y playstyle and makes it ever more so. Not a fun improvement, there.

kamokami

jaazaniah1 said:

I always thought we didn't see many tanks because most people like to pew-pew-pew dps?

That would not explain the 40 to 1 ratio of DPS to Main Tank. We see many people with tanking passives, but not many who are willing to use them to actually tank anything. If tanking was easy then those people with tanking passives would step up to do it.

pantagruel01 said:

Having done both fairly extensively: dodge tanking is easier than defiance tanking on some content, harder on others. I've pretty much given up on dodge tanking Teleiosaurus and Qwyjibo is way harder with dodge than with Defiance, but for warzone OM bosses dodge is IME easier.

I have not done enough dodge tanking to know myself, but I believe that dodge tanking is harder than tanking with defiance.

I was responding to the "tanking with defiance is easy" bit. Easy for who? For 10 people? Based on helping new tanks get ready for maining cosmics, I don't think defiance tanking is easy for anyone without lots of practice. And even for those with lots of practice, I have seen them come back after extended breaks and miss blocks, lose aggro, time ADs incorrectly to account for periods of low healing, etc....TLDR: die.

morigosa said:

That fight is just -nope- for a dodge tank; the lava pools ignore resistance and can't be dodged, so you basically have to never get clipped by lava ever, or stack far more constitution than her build can afford.

Are you talking about the lava pools from fire breath? Those ignore resistance for all tanks. And they can be entirely avoided by all tanks as well.

I suspect the reason why Ape is harder for a dodge tank has more to do with a dodge tank needing to stop using Elusive Monk after getting repelled back and then eating a blocked, but undodged fist for 100-150k base damage.

morigosa said:

They'd risk getting one-shot if they failed to block in time - but then, that's no different than anyone else trying to tank cosmics at comparatively low gear levels

At Dino and Qwyjibo, that's true at the absolute highest gear levels as well....missing a block still risks instant death. Better gear for Tanks means being effective while being able to block more, not less. It helps you retain aggro during periods of low healing.

pantagruel01

kamokami said:

I suspect the reason why Ape is harder for a dodge tank has more to do with a dodge tank needing to stop using Elusive Monk after getting repelled back and then eating a blocked, but undodged fist for 100-150k base damage.

The irresistible fire patches are more of a problem because dodge tanks tend to have lower hit points (it takes two tics to kill my dodge tank, vs three for defiance, and most dodge tanks have lower hp than me), but yeah, I wouldn't call it the biggest problem with the ape (the fire breath that triggers the lava patch also has a knock at the end you have to block, for standard lithe/EM problems). There's also needing to block because if you don't block a meteor is going to knock you head over heels, but if you block your elusive monk falls off (or you can move out of the meteor's area and either be out of range for elusive monk or annoy everyone else because the ape is wiggling).

vonqball

Would it be overpowered if Parry itself refreshed Elusive Monk? Or even being attacked while parrying refreshed it?

If that change is too unbalancing, the avoidance rating granted by LR could be nerfed a bit... since it is extremely high.

kamokami

The idea behind LR and a 100% dodge tank needs a bit of a rethink.

Right now it seems that you can either block or guarantee a dodge. But you can't do both.....which is not great. However, as soon as you can there will be no reason for any other type of tank. If you only have to block wireframed attacks with nasty secondary effects, but not the regular attack...bite, punch, blast, etc...well it would be easy to see how that kind of Tank would both generate more threat and require less healing (potentially none) than anything else.

So it seems that LR is stuck being either totally unreliable or totally OP. I would like to be corrected on this characterization by people who've played it recently.

pantagruel01

kamokami said:

So it seems that LR is stuck being either totally unreliable or totally OP. I would like to be corrected on this characterization by people who've played it recently.

That seems like an accurate description to me. I think the current state of dodge tanks is reasonably interesting and okay-ish balance wise, but it wouldn't take a lot to push it over the edge to either crazy OP or unplayable.

magpieuk2014

she actually has two block replacers

How do you get those to load in the power tray? I have an unarmed MA build I would like to spec like that but I could never get the second block to be accessible - I presumed there was some key bind hocus pocus going on?

pantagruel01

magpieuk2014 said:

she actually has two block replacers

How do you get those to load in the power tray?

Build switching (same as passives). You can't have two blocks in the power tray at once, but you can have two builds that have different blocks (I haven't taken two blocks, but I've done a build that switched to a generic block because I had a hitback effect on my block).

championsrper

I don't think that Dodge needs any sorta of buff, cuz you're right, it can be a bit OP in certain circumstances and worse in others with rather restrictive build and gear options.

My point was that nerfing Lithe from 15 seconds to 12 was COMPLETELY unnecessary.

aesica

kamokami wrote: »

That would not explain the 40 to 1 ratio of DPS to Main Tank. We see many people with tanking passives, but not many who are willing to use them to actually tank anything. If tanking was easy then those people with tanking passives would step up to do it.

As someone who primarily plays tanks in other games (just not this one) here's my take on why the divide is probably as bad as it is:

1) The threat generation is horribly low compared to other games, and this can force aspiring tanks into a game of tug-o-threat against damage-dears who outgear them. I personally find tanking to be more fun when your focus is mitigating incoming damage and picking up adds, not playing tug-o-threat with everyone else.

2) In line with the above, in what seems like an attempt to compensate, there are a bunch of really tacky workarounds, such as threat-boosting advantages, threat-boosting mods, and threat wipe abilities for damage dealers. None of this awkward nonsense would be necessary by simply boosting the threat bonus one receives for using the tank role. It would also eliminate the "look, it's another guy with a shield icon who isn't actually a tank" you see...pretty much everywhere.

3) There is no "taunt" ability. Granted, there used to be in the form of an advantage, but it was horribly done so I can see why it got scrapped. The way it's done in games like wow is that "Taunt" is its own ability, not some silly addon-on advantage/whatever. When used, it places the player using it above everyone else on the threat table. Simple enough as a mechanic, but highly effective and useful to have in a tank's toolkit.

4) Block all the things. I mean sure, block is a legit mechanic, but really only against predictable/telegraphed attacks. I could be wrong, but tanking "hard" stuff in CO seems like you're using block for a lot more than just that which is...not really interesting gameplay. (Especially when paired with the aforementioned garbage threat generation.

So is it a matter of tanking being "too hard?" I'm not sure, but I can say that, at least for me, it's a matter of how lousy this game's implementation of tanks and their relative tools turned out to be.​​

spinnytop

The likely reason that there's such a large divide at cosmics is because tanking can seem intimidating. You go from not really needing to care about tanking to having to tank godzilla and if you mess up you're gonna die right away and everyone else will die too.

This game actually has some of the easiest tanking I've encountered in an MMO, so it's not the mechanics of tanking themselves that are the issue. If you really think about it playing a tank is more or less like playing a dps at cosmics, just with more frequent blocking. In other content tanking happens more or less automatically and is just like playing a dps.

The solution already exists: TA. TA tanking is nowhere near as demanding as Cosmic tanking. TA is the "mid-difficulty content" that new tanks should be treading through before heading to cosmics, but since there's no hard requirement to do that they just skip through it and skip the endgame introductory content. Wondering if maybe TA completion should be a requirement to unlock access to cosmic rewards.

jaazaniah1

Ugh, no. Bad enough to have to run VA every time just on the off chance that I may want to do something later in VB (and of my 40 lvls 40s I've probably done it ca. 30 times anyway). What next? Make each character have to go through each Rampage as a training exercise for TA?

spinnytop said:

The solution already exists: TA. TA tanking is nowhere near as demanding as Cosmic tanking. TA is the "mid-difficulty content" that new tanks should be treading through before heading to cosmics, but since there's no hard requirement to do that they just skip through it and skip the endgame introductory content. Wondering if maybe TA completion should be a requirement to unlock access to cosmic rewards.

pantagruel01

aesica said:

It would also eliminate the "look, it's another guy with a shield icon who isn't actually a tank" you see...pretty much everywhere.

No it wouldn't. The people with shield icons who aren't tanks are people who don't want to tank, and either are forced into tank role because of an AT, or fail to understand game mechanics and think that tank role on a non-tank is actually useful. Changing how tank role works won't make them want to be tanks.

kamokami

aesica said:

I personally find tanking to be more fun when your focus is mitigating incoming damage and picking up adds, not playing tug-o-threat with everyone else.

Well as an Offtank, you can do exactly that in content that needs it: TA and Qzone OMs. And there's no tug of war to worry about when pulling adds.

aesica said:

So is it a matter of tanking being "too hard?" I'm not sure, but I can say that, at least for me, it's a matter of how lousy this game's implementation of tanks and their relative tools turned out to be.​​

I don't think it's too hard. But I would not characterize tanking, or anything that most people need to practice, as easy.

spinnytop said:

The likely reason that there's such a large divide at cosmics is because tanking can seem intimidating. You go from not really needing to care about tanking to having to tank godzilla and if you mess up you're gonna die right away and everyone else will die too.

I also believe that it's largely psychological, although I wonder why then more people don't soak tank? Since it's not high stakes and is one of the best ways to learn and get the confidence to main tank a cosmic. I guess soak tanking involves putting a lot of trust in your healers, which is something the players on dps side don't have to worry about.

aesica

pantagruel01 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. The people with shield icons who aren't tanks are people who don't want to tank, and either are forced into tank role because of an AT, or fail to understand game mechanics and think that tank role on a non-tank is actually useful. Changing how tank role works won't make them want to be tanks.

It's hard to say, really. Some might decide to step up while others might avoid taking a tank AT if they don't intend on actually playing the part. In WoW, despite some of the unsurpassed idiocy that happens in queued content, we don't ever have this particular problem because there's no way for a tank to sidestep their role--unlike the tank role in CO.

kamokami wrote: »

Well as an Offtank, you can do exactly that in content that needs it: TA and Qzone OMs. And there's no tug of war to worry about when pulling adds.

Right, but against anything other people are actively hitting, all bets are off. That really shouldn't be how tanking works in this game, but for some reason, it is. Ultimately it's one of the reasons why I (again, normally a tank player) avoid it here.​​

pantagruel01

aesica said:

It's hard to say, really.

No, it really isn't hard to say. The easiest proof is the dinosaur. Anyone with a half-assed build and the ability to hold down block can baby tank or soak tank. People who don't do either one, even when there's a need, clearly do not want to tank.

aesica said:

Right, but against anything other people are actively hitting, all bets are off. That really shouldn't be how tanking works in this game, but for some reason, it is.​​

Why shouldn't it take effort and build/gear optimization to effectively tank?

revanantmorituri

Work to survive, sure. Work to position the enemy for group survival, agreed. Pay attention to the fight and catch the adds before they hunt down the squishies, certainly. Fight to get aggro in the first place because Mr. Leet DPS Glass Cannon does more raw damage than you, even after tank role multiplication? No.

pantagruel01

revanantmorituri said:

Work to survive, sure. Work to position the enemy for group survival, agreed. Pay attention to the fight and catch the adds before they hunt down the squishies, certainly. Fight to get aggro in the first place because Mr. Leet DPS Glass Cannon does more raw damage than you, even after tank role multiplication? No.

It just means you're forced to pay attention to more than one thing at once -- you can't just focus on survivability, you have to do damage as well. A well-built well-played tank will not have aggro problems.

jaazaniah1

And there's the rub. Just about anyone can show up at cosmics and get the 100K minimum (though on fast runs this can be an issue for a Baby Tank). One can have a so-so build in mercs with R5s and do just fine as dps and even as a healer. Very low learning curve on those. But tank construction and play is really a whole order of magnitude different.

Just as an example. Do be a solid baby tank (assuming one is getting heals and already has decent HP, R3 block and defensive passive), you have to develop a skill for snagging baby quickly so that all the dps and heals don't die if baby targets them. Tricks to doing that well include having a key bind for baby and/or a PBAoE, as well as knowing the best place to stand so mamma doesn't get you before getting baby lured away (possibly the one area where ranged tanks have a bit of an advantage is being able to stand well to the side), having some amount of aggro generating ability is good too. You also have to know where a good place/angle is to park baby. Sure, it can be learned, but it is way easier just to stand to the side and pew-pew-pew.

Soak tanking is a lot easier, but it still takes a bit of practice timing the blocks. Also, sometimes heals are focused on the MT and so the soaks (especially if inexperienced and not well-geared yet) can die more often, which I imagine some would find dispiriting.

Now, as to why more people aren't willing to run tanks and at least try soak tanking, there you have me. Maybe some players never look at the forums and never see all the useful information and get creamed when they show up and just don't try again?

pantagruel01 said:

revanantmorituri said:

Work to survive, sure. Work to position the enemy for group survival, agreed. Pay attention to the fight and catch the adds before they hunt down the squishies, certainly. Fight to get aggro in the first place because Mr. Leet DPS Glass Cannon does more raw damage than you, even after tank role multiplication? No.

It just means you're forced to pay attention to more than one thing at once -- you can't just focus on survivability, you have to do damage as well. A well-built well-played tank will not have aggro problems.

pantagruel01

jaazaniah1 said:

Just as an example. Do be a solid baby tank (assuming one is getting heals and already has decent HP, R3 block and defensive passive), you have to develop a skill for snagging baby quickly so that all the dps and heals don't die if baby targets them.

Depending on how the server tics work that's not necessarily possible. You're doing an adequate job as baby tank if you have its aggro by the time it finishes breathing radioactive fire at the healer (it's up to the healer to endure that well enough to prevent a wipe).

aesica

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Why shouldn't it take effort and build/gear optimization to effectively tank?

In all the games I've played tanks in, "effectively tanking" means knowing how/when to use your abilities to best mitigate damage effectively, being alert for any new adds and picking them up as quickly as possible, paying attention to your fellow tank (if applicable) to tank swap at the appropriate time, and properly positioning what you're tanking so that its cone attacks and other aoes don't decimate the squishies. Out-threating the damage dealers may have been a thing in those other games in the beginning, but every single one of them at some point decided that particular part of tanking wasn't good design and eliminated it by greatly increasing tank threat.

I don't see why CO can't learn from the past experiences of other games when it's trying its hardest to follow that same trinity-based path.​​

pantagruel01

aesica said:

I don't see why CO can't learn from the past experiences of other games when it's trying its hardest to follow that same trinity-based path.​​

Absent threat being difficult to maintain, in CO you can just toggle your block on and go take a nap.

spinnytop

jaazaniah1 said:

Ugh, no. Bad enough to have to run VA every time just on the off chance that I may want to do something later in VB (and of my 40 lvls 40s I've probably done it ca. 30 times anyway). What next? Make each character have to go through each Rampage as a training exercise for TA?

No because rampages wouldn't give you any meaningful training for TA or cosmics. TA on the other hand has some pretty similar stuff going on to cosmics, like tanking big bosses, positioning and needing to block dangerous attacks. Hell, it even has the Dino itself in there - how much better training can you get than a lower damage version with the exact same attacks? Everyone should be an expert on fighting Dino but people aren't doing the tutorial that the devs put in.

That's why requiring TA would help, because people would see Cosmic dino and say "Oh just like the one in the lair, I know what I have to do". It's also a great training ground for players in general. The bosses do less damage than cosmics, but attack just as often. Great for people trying to learn how to do their roles while paying attention to stuff they have to block.

jonesing4

I actually like that idea, spinny. Would also get people used to coordinating with a team (actually listening to people who are giving advice/instructions, etc.), as an added ‘general’ benefit.