a perfect "pvp" world

roarofolympus · February 2018

Two or so years i've been playing this, not a single update for pvp rewards or even fixing/promotion of hero games. Nothing but pve pve pve event event event endless farming but for what? to do it all over again? And not to mention our devs, not saying any names but seem to care only about furry costumes and making sure things like "cat paws are now functioning properly", as well as the occasional nerf on powers that they think is too strong for THEM. Ok i got that off my chest so I'll refrain from making this a rant towards obvious neglect of the pvp in this game lol. I just want to throw an idea out there wether its heard or not.

An open-world pvp zone, like B.a.s.h but only you dont have to queue to enter it, you just enter the zone. There are so many maps and locations that people rarely step foot on, why not utilize them? That way all pvp players can stay in there and destroy each other (im sure many of you would be ok with this) while the pve/rpers can do their own thing without cause for any conflict.

There would be regulations of course, I would suggest a colored-named/bounty system as followed.

White= Passive if you challenge a duel it will be the same as anywhere else, nobody will be able to attack the two who are involved.

Orange= players name will be orange if they attack another player without issueing a duel, marking him as "hostile" and ok to be attacked by anyone without penalty. The player being attacked could have a temporary 3000hp sheild or absorb a full charged blast, since the attacker has advantage/element of suprise. Those who attack this player will also turn orange but orange named players will not recieve a safety sheild.

Red= if player (and any player involved) kills another player without them fighting back, they will be a bounty on them were everyone is open to attack him/them and recieve decent amount of acclaim depending on the severity of their "spree". Also strengthened npcs or "pvp police" will attack them on sight to make it difficult for them to abuse power. Constant abuse of this could also result in penalty like "jail time," when defeated they have to pay a certain amount of currency to leave or they have to serve their time.

Purple= if player with a orange or red name decides to change toons or log to avoid dying, he will be marked as a "leaver" for 24hrs or more depending on how often they do it, and can have penalties such as being suspended from entering the pvp zone.

A KD ratio would be factored into peoples bios, and be reset after every month or season.

Respawn points will be large safe zones and players unable to be attacked to prevent the notorious spawn killing that happens. Players will not be able to enter the safe zones so they cant stalk someone after they leave it either.

Also rewards should be new gear, maybe lower defense than justice and distinguished but with certain bonuses to boost certain builds
(Ex. Assassin breastplate of elusiveness grants increased stealth
Mage's helmet of utility grants increase perception/stealth sight)
3 set items increase % of certain powers or resistances things like that etc.

More diversity and attact more players please. Criticize or mock me all you want, i wont reply to this. I just thought I would throw out something I always visioned would be a great update to our favorite game.
-Sinner

theravenforce · February 2018

One of the many issues surrounding PvP is that most people aren't that interested in it. Or at least don't appear to be when you look at the power system in CO right now.

Also, zone wide PvP is a thing that is possible, but not many people engage in it, but it can be fun when two teams utilize an entire space of say...The Desert and PvP out there.

So the function for what you are asking (to an extent) already exists in CO, it's just up to the players themselves, to utilize this.

Take two groups of PvP ready players and plop yourselves in the Desert and Team Duel one another, that could be something to try if you haven't already.

aesica · February 2018

I can't see open-world pvp being anything but awful in this game. Why not just work on fixing up the existing queued content and adding interesting rewards so people actually want to do it instead?

chaosdrgnz43 · February 2018

Not many players find PvP fun. Especially with how exploitable freeform builds are. Only a minor part of the playerbase find it fun. CO tried to appeal pvp by adding reward to BITE during BM and OV. But you can clearly see how that easily died down after the initial release.

Devs probably think that their time and resources/efforts will be better spent to appeal to the interests of the majority.

lezard21 · February 2018

I fully support the addition of a zone where we can voluntarily lock roarofolympus in!

behemothking · February 2018

The suggestion is good. I approve.

theravenforce said:
One of the many issues surrounding PvP is that most people aren't that interested in it. Or at least don't appear to be when you look at the power system in CO right now.

Also, zone wide PvP is a thing that is possible, but not many people engage in it, but it can be fun when two teams utilize an entire space of say...The Desert and PvP out there.

So the function for what you are asking (to an extent) already exists in CO, it's just up to the players themselves, to utilize this.

Take two groups of PvP ready players and plop yourselves in the Desert and Team Duel one another, that could be something to try if you haven't already.

I find that what you say has little to do with his suggestion.

One could argue that his suggestion would grow interest in PvP. It would be a solution to "one of the many issues surrounding PvP". You argue that the function already exists. What do you have to say about his suggestion if we look at his suggestion instead as an improvement to that existing function? Is a solution to an issue and an improvement to a function within a game not a good suggestion?

aesica said:
I can't see open-world pvp being anything but awful in this game. Why not just work on fixing up the existing queued content and adding interesting rewards so people actually want to do it instead?

Off-topic, emotionally charged response there, aesica. Take a minute to calm down, take some deep breaths, and think before you post something, pretty please. Maybe that would help in getting you to actually say something about the posted suggestion.

chaosdrgnz43 said:
Not many players find PvP fun. Especially with how exploitable freeform builds are. Only a minor part of the playerbase find it fun. CO tried to appeal pvp by adding reward to BITE during BM and OV. But you can clearly see how that easily died down after the initial release.

Devs probably think that their time and resources/efforts will be better spent to appeal to the interests of the majority.

That doesn't say anything about his suggestion.

lezard21 said:
I fully support the addition of a zone where we can voluntarily lock roarofolympus in!

Quality content post, as always, lezard.

theravenforce · February 2018

behemothking#9246 said:
I find that what you say has little to do with his suggestion.

One could argue that his suggestion would grow interest in PvP. It would be a solution to "one of the many issues surrounding PvP". You argue that the function already exists. What do you have to say about his suggestion if we look at his suggestion instead as an improvement to that existing function? Is a solution to an issue and an improvement to a function within a game not a good suggestion?

Okay, I'll bite.

(Side Note #1: There's no reason to try and be condescending here, telling people to 'take deep breaths' or 'calm down' is just asking for a struggle. Everyone in this thread has actually spoken on the core topic of this suggestion: PvP.)

1) How many maps are there in game currently which are PvP only?

- Powerhouse Arena shell maps and Arena area <-- For this, ask yourself, why investment was made for these functions (and who it was intended to appeal to) and yet they seem to be so underused that they might as well just be previews of certain areas in the game?

- BASH
- KoTH
- Stronghold Prison PvP
- Zombie Apoc

^ How often do those pop and a large majority of players, knowing that it is available...join? Once you have an answer, you will realize how much work OP is asking for in relation to the small amount of players who would benefit. Whilst that doesn't have to be a problem (I mean, I am sure there have been instances where changes or content has been produced to appeal to certain types of players), the apparent lack of interest at present makes such an investment questionable at best.

(Side Note #2: There was a time, a few years ago when I got my SG mates and myself into team based PvP utilizing those maps, alongside some real PvPers. That was a lot of fun until the other 'serious PvPers' came in and totally ruined the atmosphere.

Once they cottoned on to the fact that this was a regular occurrence, it just continued to get worse until most of us pulled out. But, during that time, players who don't normally PvP under any circumstances (like me), actually enjoyed it, which was a surprise.)

2) I'm not arguing anything, it is a FACT that zone wide PvP is actually possible in game and that not many people engage in it. The only restriction is that you must either:

- Challenge a team (more than one player)
- Be part of a team and challenge another team.

3) Throwing more time and money at something players have minimal interest in, is not going to drastically change things. If I see a soggy cardboard box lying in the street, I'm not going to want it, even if some other people might be interested in it (since it is soggy). Throwing pretty ribbons and glitter all over it won't entice me to bring it anywhere near my house anymore so than it's natural soggy state.

An example is Onslaught aka "Encouraged PvP" - The hype around this spiked dramatically, so much so that within the first 9 days I had in excess of 15k VT (and I don't play that long on CO). I gained so much from killing players constantly. Then the bugs and abuse came along and ruined all the fun. The core of the Onslaught System was/is that both sides have to die in order to gain tokens...problem is...'no one' likes dying, so either the Onslaught Villain stands there and advertised free GT or attempts to kill heroes who may be pocketed by strong healers or support players, or simply won't engage so the OSV throws themselves at turrets.

^ That is an example of investment in PvP...which after two weeks has had no lasting impact on the amount of players remotely interested in PvP.

Onslaught is great for RP combat like: "Oh noes, Grond/Medusa/Gravitar in MC!", but outside of that, it has to be one of the slowest and most unfulfilling ways to obtain gear.

4) Nowhere in my post, if you read it, did I say this wasn't a good suggestion. I just think it needs to be more realistic and there would need to be much more interest in PvP for the Devs (IMO) to throw time and resources at it.

behemothking · February 2018

theravenforce said:

(Side Note #1: There's no reason to try and be condescending here, telling people to 'take deep breaths' or 'calm down' is just asking for a struggle. Everyone in this thread has actually spoken on the core topic of this suggestion: PvP.)

I truly believe it would be positive if people were to do that before they post as it would have a person stop, calm their emotions, and think critically about a topic which is important for a meaningful discussion.

theravenforce said:

...yet they seem to be so underused...

This is indicative of problems, no? The maps have a purpose behind them. If they didn't, nobody would have had the will to create and implement them in the game. Lack of use after implementation is evidence that whatever purpose they had was not achieved, and clearly, they are in need of some kind of solution. Whether or not this problem is important is subject to change.

theravenforce said:

...you will realize how much work OP is asking for in relation to the small amount of players who would benefit.

And what of how much work he is asking for? It's a suggestion in which OP is sharing his ideas, not giving devs a work order. The devs will ultimately be the ones weighing the costs and benefits and will decide and do as they please.

theravenforce said:

...the apparent lack of interest at present makes such an investment questionable at best.

Leave that for the devs to conclude upon for themselves. It is hardly constructive to the suggestion to assume such already.

theravenforce said:

2) I'm not arguing anything...

You are simplifying his suggestion and claiming that it is one and the same with a feature that already exists within the game which, again, is not constructive because that renders his suggestion unnecessary. Your simplification is not a fact, it is your subjective perspective.

theravenforce said:

3) Throwing more time and money at something players have minimal interest in, is not going to drastically change things.

Interpreting the scope of OP's suggestion to be a solution that changes all of PvP shows that you miss the point of his suggestion. That's not the intention of the suggestion.

theravenforce said:

That is an example of investment in PvP...which after two weeks has had no lasting impact on the amount of players remotely interested in PvP.

...it has to be one of the slowest and most unfulfilling ways to obtain gear.

So, it's another PvP thing that failed. It sure sounds like the devs could use a good suggestion for PvP content since what they've tried hasn't worked.

theravenforce said:

4) Nowhere in my post, if you read it, did I say this wasn't a good suggestion. I just think it needs to be more realistic and there would need to be much more interest in PvP for the Devs (IMO) to throw time and resources at it.

And nowhere in my post did I say that you said the suggestion wasn't good.

behemothking#9246 said:

Is a solution to an issue and an improvement to a function within a game not a good suggestion?

If you meant this, I should have worded it better. I meant to ask for your thoughts of his suggestion as it is for what it is. It would build upon his ideas and actually be constructive if you were to provide them.

So, what do you think of his suggestion as an addition to the game?

pantagruel01 · February 2018

The basic problem with PvP is that the number of people interested in doing it at any given time has never been a large fraction of the population, and the PvP maps other than BASH have a minimum practical population of about 6 -- which most of the time exceeds the number of people actually interested in queuing for PvP. This proposed new zone seems like it would require even more people, as hunting for one of five other people in a zone-sized area is just gonna be a lot of running about finding no-one.

I think a map like this would have been interesting several years ago, but probably not viable today, even if Cryptic wanted to spend the resources to develop it.

grimvane · February 2018

I'd be happy with just being able to flag myself as open to pvp while questing. I could always just unflag myself if it's a gank/griefer squad or someone who takes it a little too seriously.

immaragequit · February 2018

Personally, I think this is a wonderful sugestion, and that it would hopefully, eventually fix one of the problems with the current state of PVP: The lack fo players.

An open PVP zone (Lets say a smaller version of Monster Island for example, or a smaller version of City Center. Even if the remaining features like teaming, bounty and color-coded threat get added afterwards, over a certain period of time. A zone you can simply enter, without forcing people to queue and wait for X players before it's joinable. A bigger zone that encourages things like hunting for example.

When team duels came out for example, they were a huge thing. A lot of people quickly got into it. It wouldn't be long after however that the hype died down, because it wasn't too different from the regular duels we already had.

The MAIN problem with PVP, and what I believe is the reason for the lack of interest on behalf of the playerbase is the fact that the rewards for PVP are laughable at best! Back in Atari times, PVP gave the best gear in the game, and whenever I logged on, rarely did I see Hero Games innactive. People went as far as leveling characters through Hero games! (Yes you could do that!)
Let's face it. Other than perception cores, who's going to farm acclaim to buy a luchador piece or even the chainsaw device? Heroics are hardly a good reward at the moment since legions and Mercenary's serve similar purposes and they're easy-ER to obtain.
Give people another reason to do PVP! Give them a reason to WANT to do it!

With the addition of -NEW- content regarding PVP I strongly believe this would not only atract new players, but old players that used to be into it aswell.

I feel some content directed at the PVP side of the community would be nice for a change, and not the RP and PVE side only, as has been the case for the past couple of years or more.

-Queen of Ash

blockwave · February 2018

I think making PVP interesting with actual rewards would be good, cause let's admit, our pve end-game is so thin, you do it 300 times then you get over it and stand in ren-center wondering what you want to do..

roarofolympus · February 2018

thank you all for your feedback (:

theravenforce · February 2018

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

...yet they seem to be so underused...
This is indicative of problems, no? The maps have a purpose behind them. If they didn't, nobody would have had the will to create and implement them in the game. Lack of use after implementation is evidence that whatever purpose they had was not achieved, and clearly, they are in need of some kind of solution. Whether or not this problem is important is subject to change.

If you read my post, you'd see that I was pointing out that it is an issue. However, from your response here, it is clear you've either not read all of it, or have just decided to sidestep several questions which were posed to continue meaningful discussion. Instead you've taken bits out of their context and made comments.

That suggests that you aren't wanting to really have a good conversation about this but instead would just like everyone to be pro this idea without thinking about it (that is not to suggest those in agreement with this idea have not thought about it).

Note: There are a lot of different factors affecting interest in PvP and I realize and accept that PvP is not in a place where it is palatable to the masses, either through past bad experience or a lack of desire in fighting other players in that fashion. It is a multi factorial issue, so a solution cannot just cover one aspect, which is why I posted what I posted.

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

...you will realize how much work OP is asking for in relation to the small amount of players who would benefit.
And what of how much work he is asking for? It's a suggestion in which OP is sharing his ideas, not giving devs a work order. The devs will ultimately be the ones weighing the costs and benefits and will decide and do as they please.

You seem to have slightly misinterpreted what was typed there. I'll leave you to look into it if you wish.

The suggestions forums is where players effectively "ask" Devs to implement certain things. Any suggestion made is a potential "work order" if you will, if the Development Team decide to pick it up.

The fact that it is up to the Developers does not stop me from expressing my opinion on the topic.

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

...the apparent lack of interest at present makes such an investment questionable at best.
Leave that for the devs to conclude upon for themselves. It is hardly constructive to the suggestion to assume such already.

So if feedback isn't to your liking...it should be shut down?

My simple point was to highlight that such an investment in such a small part of CO, would be questionable considering the alleged size of our Development Team for CO.

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

2) I'm not arguing anything...
You are simplifying his suggestion and claiming that it is one and the same with a feature that already exists within the game which, again, is not constructive because that renders his suggestion unnecessary. Your simplification is not a fact, it is your subjective perspective.

Re-read everything posted there, not just what you've quoted. You have not grasped what I am saying and likely will continue to be unable to as what I have to say is not to your liking.

If you believe Zone Wide PvP is a "subjective perspective"...and not an actual thing that can be done in CO...please follow the steps below:

- Grab several PvP friends
- Make two teams
- Team Duel each other in a zone (like Desert)

The outcome should be (provided everyone accepts) literal zone wide (capable) PvPing.

Trying to minimize valid and factual points as someone's "subjective perspective" is backward. Whilst the capability in game may not be to the same level as the suggestion...it exists in some capacity.

The fact that it isn't used very often is an indicator of interest.

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

3) Throwing more time and money at something players have minimal interest in, is not going to drastically change things.
Interpreting the scope of OP's suggestion to be a solution that changes all of PvP shows that you miss the point of his suggestion. That's not the intention of the suggestion.

You have missed the point of what I said and the example given. Nowhere did I say it would solve all of PvP problems. PvP has more problems than not having as much content for it as PvE and that is an entirely different conversation.

The intention of this thread is to boost PvP in CO by creating a suggestion...something which I and others have responded to in this thread.

I can't help if you are misinterpreting what I am saying.

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

That is an example of investment in PvP...which after two weeks has had no lasting impact on the amount of players remotely interested in PvP.

...it has to be one of the slowest and most unfulfilling ways to obtain gear.
So, it's another PvP thing that failed. It sure sounds like the devs could use a good suggestion for PvP content since what they've tried hasn't worked.

There are parts of the suggestion which have merit and would be interesting, however, realistically, the focus right now is clearly not on PvP, but instead getting the core tools (powers/skills etc) that players use to experience the game, to a better place.

Once the core tools are in a better place, we may see a rise in PvP, as it could shift to a more balanced playing field.

PvP in CO does need a review and potentially destroyed and rebuilt in a completely different fashion, something like this suggestion could form part of it, but would not be the overall solution, but one part of the overall solution.

behemothking#9246 said:

theravenforce said:

4) Nowhere in my post, if you read it, did I say this wasn't a good suggestion. I just think it needs to be more realistic and there would need to be much more interest in PvP for the Devs (IMO) to throw time and resources at it.

And nowhere in my post did I say that you said the suggestion wasn't good.

It was implied when you posed this question with the wording used:

behemothking#9246 said:
"Is a solution to an issue and an improvement to a function within a game not a good suggestion?"

aesica · February 2018

behemothking#9246 wrote: »

Off-topic, emotionally charged response there, aesica. Take a minute to calm down, take some deep breaths, and think before you post something, pretty please. Maybe that would help in getting you to actually say something about the posted suggestion.

You're trying too hard to be a troll and not hard enough to say something that's actually useful. Let me break it down for you:

1) Developer resources are known to be limited. Given what I know of this game's antiquated potato code, creating a new zone with a special pvp flagging system isn't something they can easily do overnight, either.

2) The population in this game is low and most people generally seem uninterested in pvp. Feel free to take an (unbiased) poll on the matter to prove me wrong, though. Assuming the devs actually made this thing (I'd be shocked if they did) the most likely scenario would be that, after the initial release where people go to see the shiny new content, you're left with a ghost zone where a few hardcore pvp fans are jumping around, shouting "come on and fight me! Where is everybody?" Eventually, they'd leave too because there was nobody left to play with.

3) In this game, pvp seems like it's generally failed overall. See the queues, OV system, and bite for details. Why would this zone be different and somehow end up a success?

So, in your own words, feel free to explain why it's worth the devs' time to create a zone dedicated to open world pvp when every other aspect of pvp in this game has ultimately proven to be a flop.

kamokami · February 2018

I think that what @behemothking#9246 is trying to get across is instead of immediately shooting down an idea, it might be valuable to build on it. If you think it's not viable then talk about how it or something else could be changed to make it viable and let the people who implement ideas worry about feasibility.

If the Suggestions forums were filled with discussion of "What could happen" and "How it could happen" presumably they'd be more valuable and impactful to dev's plans than just a lot of "That won't happen so give up". Even if they were all complete pipe dreams they could lead to ideas which are doable.

I also understand the perspective of those who've been wanting more for a long time but don't see a way to get more. So they've had to accept the status quo to justify their continued investment in the game.

You can both be right. Everyone chill.

-------------------------------

Re:PvP, personally, the most fun I've had in CO was during PvP. Also the least fun. It's a rollercoaster that has a lot of potential and needs a lot of work to realize that potential.

I do think that what it needs first and most are relevant rewards, which were promised by a previous dev team but never delivered on. Once the rewards are in place there will be a ton of other problems - but they will at least be worth looking at since interest will have increased.

OVs and OV rewards might be a good place to start, since the rewards there hold a lot of interest despite the actual gameplay involved to get them (aka stand around in ren cen).

spinnytop · February 2018

Roaro I don't really see what it is you're trying to create with your suggestion. Your rules all seem designed to punish any actual "open world pvp" that people try to engage in, with dueling being the type of pvp that people are pushed towards. So, why not suggest a 1v1 arena? You don't really need a whole zone if you want to create a system where people can farm rewards through duels. Hell you could just create a vendor NPC with repeatable missions for winning duels which give you currency to buy some rewards with. Don't expect them to put endgame gear on there though, because that would make it way too easy for people to cheese their way to endgame gear.

If you want some sort of open world pvp, ditch all the "We turn your butthole inside out if you attack someone" rules. Instead make ganking less meaningful by making the pvp objective-based, similar to the prison hero game. Multiple spawn points with players always spawning at the point with the least enemy players nearby means anyone who tries to spawn camp is just wasting their time. If the rewards are tied completely to the objectives and not player kills then you motivate players to focus on the objectives rather than ganking. Random idea thought up in 10 seconds which I don't care if it's bad or not: each team has a big tough NPC they need to escort to a point on the map. The NPCs spawn every X minutes, and your rewards are based on how many checkpoints you got your NPC through versus how many your opponents got theirs through, so players are motivated both to attack the other team's NPC and protect their own, which involves both attacking NPCs and attacking players. This means that a wide variety of builds can be helpful, and even pvpers can feel useful, i.e. sweet that sick dpser showed up to help, keep everyone away from them so we can burn down the other team's big dumb NPC!

Also you'll need to break up teams rather forcefully. Premades can be a big issue since the people with pvp builds will pretty quickly try to gravitate to the same team to farm maximum rewards - which of course leads to eventually nobody showing up for the other team since they're not getting anything. When the NPCs spawn, randomly assign players to each team, and eventually implement some sort of weighting system to make the teams as balanced as can be. This means at the very least that you won't end up with uneven numbers of players on either team. Anybody who shows up after a match has begun will be assigned to either team back and forth to keep the numbers even.

As for rewards, they definitely should not implement rewards before putting in some serious time into solving problems. Sure they could make it so you can get Justice Gear through hero games and overnight they'd have flooded queues. However, luring players into a stink pit doesn't magically make them enjoy wading around in a stink pit. Once they have a real plan to improve pvp that solves the problems then they should implement some gear that is pvp-focused and significantly less useful in pve than the endgame pve sets, and significantly more useful in pvp than the endgame pve sets - two tiers of gear, one you get quickly so you can get into the pvp stats and another that takes a while. Also they should produce some of the most garish, eye-burning, horrid costumes ever conceived as rewards since that's the kind of thing pvpers seem to love.

sterga · February 2018

OnSlaught didn't bomb because it was PvP. It bombed because it was a blatant cash grab with garbage balance. It can be fixed, but requires caring about making content that prioritizes fun not money.

Devs are doing event binges because they work at getting people back to playing and spending money.

I seriously doubt most people come to CO for the PvP. They come for dress-up dolls and the flexible power system. If the number of people interested in PvP was even half the number of people that regularly attend a costume contest, no one would have a problem getting a Hero Games que to pop.

The most popular PvP outside of duels has generally been Zombie Apoc... Which is basically PvE co-op.

The only way PvP is going to attract a decent sized crowd is to make it appealing to PvE players or casual PvPers and make it so it can't be ruined by 2proPvPers. That is none of the things in this topic. There is nothing appealing about a big, empty zone full of boring. PvP flagging and K/D ratios are completely pointless if hardly anyone cares about PvP in the first place.

jennymachx · February 2018

An open-world PVP mechanic wouldn't even make sense considering what the theme of this game is.

PVP in the context of this game's lore has to do with legalized competitive sports where superheroes are the participants. Outside of that superheroes work together hand-in-hand to fight the bad guys. One superhero doesn't just randomly attack another superhero in plain sight in the open just "because". A superhero doesn't just suddenly attack another superhero while the latter is in the middle of saving people from a burning building. It makes no sense to have open-world PVP.

It makes sense for a MMO game like EVE Online or Conan Exiles to be open-world PVP, considering what both games are about; in those game worlds everyone is a survivalist and sometimes have to compete with other players for survival. CO isn't about that at all.

spinnytop · February 2018

jennymachx said:
An open-world PVP mechanic wouldn't even make sense considering what the theme of this game is.

Eh, roaro's idea makes just as much sense as heroes standing around in rencen and beating the piss out of each other for fun. Different location, same behavior.

aesica · February 2018

kamokami wrote: »

If you think it's not viable then talk about how it or something else could be changed to make it viable and let the people who implement ideas worry about feasibility.

Fair, although it's important to consider the developer resources when posing suggestions so that the suggestions have a greater likelihood of actually being implemented. That said:

1) The UO/M59-style flagging system seems unnecessary unless death is supposed to have some sort of penalty (it shouldn't). It would likely lead to annoying nonsense like "I'll just stand amidst whatever mobs you're killing (there will be mobs too, right?) so that your aoe splash hits me, flags you, and then I can go to town on you now-orange name."

2) Open world pvp is always going to be a tricky beast to balance because people can team up with whoever they want rather than having their "team" chosen automatically by the system. Some random player who wanders in will have no chance against even a small team consisting of a healer and a few pvp-oriented damage dealers.

3) Is the plan to just "go in and kill each other all day for [pvp currency]?" It's been my experience that open-world pvp zones in games like this tend to do better when the pvp is secondary as an objective. In current WoW, Dalaran's Underbelly is a pretty well-done open, free-for-all pvp zone where the primary goal is to kill event-based spawns and complete mini-objectives in order to acquire a currency unique to the area. Any pvp is just secondary to that--you might kill someone who's looting a currency-filled chest you want, for example.

4) So the gear is meant to be inferior to justice/distinguished/etc? Most people won't bother then I imagine unless currency acquisition is poorly tuned in such a way that it can be acquired much faster than GCR. Instead, it'd be better to make the gear equal in overall strength, but with bonuses (set and individual) that focus on pvp, with little or no bonuses for content outside that. Set bonuses like "recover X energy when attacked by another player (max once per Y seconds)" or "reduce damage dealt by other players by X%" or "increase damage dealt to players by X%" etc instead of the more general-purpose bonuses found on justice/distinguished would probably work.

5) That said, CO's population (and interest in pvp overall) probably isn't where it needs to be for this to work. Dalaran's Underbelly works well in WoW because there's always a fair amount of people there and it's a relatively small/medium sized area. In CO, I suspect something similar would be fairly empty during off hours, so I could either loot objectives in peace or (if it's just about killing each other) bring an alt account to farm like I did with the bite/moonstruck objective).

So don't get me wrong, I'm not against something like this. I just don't see it working out well given CO's population and apparent general (dis)interest in pvp.

sterga · February 2018

PvP specific gear is awful. Back when the level cap in Rift was 50 and PvP gear basically didn't exist before then, I always level locked any character that I actually want to enjoy PvPing with. I could have a character that was a BAMF at level 49 but suddenly become garbage at 50 due to the existence of PvP gear. My build didn't matter at all because of the massive disadvantage to not having PvP gear.

Oh and PvP specific gear does that thing with making it totally unappealing to casual or PvE focused toon in favor of the "hardcore" players that there aren't enough of anyway. Because making balance issues worse doesn't help anyone.

You know what would be better? A way to get GCR / SCR that didn't involve Cosmics. Like by doing PvP stuff at end game.

Although, I have to wonder what is wrong with Zombie Apoc and Stronghold that no one ever does them despite them being the most casual PvP / PvE friendly of the Hero Games. Is the reputation of this content as broken crap so ingrained that no one can be assed anymore? Or maybe there just needs to be a daily for this stuff. Is there a daily yet? Considering CO is driven by missions and dailies, you'd think there would be by now.

shadowolf505 · February 2018

You can do Teleios Ascendant for GCR/SCR, also Warzone dailies for some too. Just takes time. With that said, I like this OP's idea and suggestion and it seems perfectly normal.

pantagruel01 · February 2018

sterga said:
Although, I have to wonder what is wrong with Zombie Apoc and Stronghold that no one ever does them despite them being the most casual PvP / PvE friendly of the Hero Games. Is the reputation of this content as broken crap so ingrained that no one can be assed anymore?

The PvP queues have been buggy since forever, and On Alert made it worse because the alert queuing system is actually based on the PvP queuing system. But no, there isn't a daily or really anything to remind people that PvP still exists.

aesica · February 2018

sterga wrote: »

PvP specific gear is awful. Back when the level cap in Rift was 50 and PvP gear basically didn't exist before then, I always level locked any character that I actually want to enjoy PvPing with. I could have a character that was a BAMF at level 49 but suddenly become garbage at 50 due to the existence of PvP gear. My build didn't matter at all because of the massive disadvantage to not having PvP gear.

Oh and PvP specific gear does that thing with making it totally unappealing to casual or PvE focused toon in favor of the "hardcore" players that there aren't enough of anyway. Because making balance issues worse doesn't help anyone.

I should probably elaborate that ideally, this pvp gear would be better than heroic gear in both pvp and pve, but less effective in pve (but better for pvp) than justice/distinguished. I'm not calling for some huge rift in gear performance between pvp and pve gear, just that the set should be optimal for pvp and less so for pve.

sterga wrote: »

You know what would be better? A way to get GCR / SCR that didn't involve Cosmics. Like by doing PvP stuff at end game.

I don't disagree, and would actually love something like this, but I doubt the devs would go for it. Also, since players tend to gravitate toward that path of least resistance, if it was easier/better than having to suffer through a cosmic group, you'd see cosmic participation dwindle rather significantly. (Which honestly is fine, people should only be subjected to repeating the same content for so long)

sterga wrote: »

Although, I have to wonder what is wrong with Zombie Apoc and Stronghold that no one ever does them despite them being the most casual PvP / PvE friendly of the Hero Games. Is the reputation of this content as broken crap so ingrained that no one can be assed anymore? Or maybe there just needs to be a daily for this stuff. Is there a daily yet? Considering CO is driven by missions and dailies, you'd think there would be by now.

When I was newer, I looked at those queues and really, there's no way to tell which is more casual-friendly and which aren't. There also isn't really anything to incentivize players to participate in this content, like daily quests or weekly rotation metaquests like Vigilance. The rewards are also trash, so updating those might be a nice start, too.

Edit: Also, people tend to check out on things like this when they perform poorly. Given the power gap between experienced players/pvp-built characters and everyone else, I'd fully expect that a fair number of people would try the queues, then never return after seeing some big epeen pvper lay waste to their entire team of inexperienced players running shoddy ATs.

immaragequit · February 2018

aesica said:

Edit: Also, people tend to check out on things like this when they perform poorly. Given the power gap between experienced players/pvp-built characters and everyone else, I'd fully expect that a fair number of people would try the queues, then never return after seeing some big epeen pvper lay waste to their entire team of inexperienced players running shoddy ATs.

Aesica, those are the kind of people that believe just because their character is halwafay to immortal in PVE, that they should be just as good in PVP.

PVP takes time to learn how to do, time to practice, time to create a build and master it, Learn how to fight it's possible counters. It's not something you can jump into and be good at overnight.

As I said, I think this is a wonderful idea.
We were given the Qlipothic warzone, dedicated to the PVE and Cosmic side of the community, the people that needed something to do after the ten billion hours grinding cosmic bosses, until they have the patterns memorized.
Why not take something simple, at first, like big open map, maybe even a cut-out version of city center, vibora, or monster island, implement them in an instance, remove the queue times and set every player to hostile? It sounds like a simple thing to do, at first-glance, specially since developers can convert players to hostile using commands, on real-time.
Even if mechanics get to be added over time, for starters, a big open area where you can fight multiple players at once, getting acclaim on each player defeated, and giving PVP better rewards for the acclaim currency would be a BIG factor in not only reviving the PVP side of the community, but atract new players who would be interested in it.

If you don't like the idea, that's absolutely fine! But don't go trying to devalue or say it's a bad idea, just because it's not your cup of tea, or because you want devs to work on a new "animal pack 3" instead. The PVP side of the community needs a significant update to be revived. That side of the community deserves attention too, and it's been years now, since the last significant pvp update was added.

Enough of cat action figures being added with every new event.
Enough of nerfs of powers nobody asked for or complained about.
Enough of cash-grabbing lockboxes with sets that could just as easily be added into the z-store.
Give the PVP side of the community something that isn't a nerf. Give it the attention it also deserves!
Better rewards, a dedicated map, a mechanic that's fun to play. A reason for veterans to WANT to PVP again, and for new players to WANT to learn!

-Queen of Ash

poisonivory · February 2018

Hello CO community I'm from um Swordsman Online and I have a question about the game, I didn't know where exactly to post it and this is totally unrelated obviously lol so um is this game welcoming to new players? By welcoming I mean the games economy, player base and ability to get items to catch up to top players or something along those lines, it would help much since I'm interested in the game, the forums and devs seem to be active and I love the healthy discussions, feedback appreciated xoxo

roughbearmattach · February 2018

Aloha, and welcome aboard!

aesica · February 2018

immaragequit wrote: »

If you don't like the idea, that's absolutely fine! But don't go trying to devalue or say it's a bad idea, just because it's not your cup of tea, or because you want devs to work on a new "animal pack 3" instead. The PVP side of the community needs a significant update to be revived. That side of the community deserves attention too, and it's been years now, since the last significant pvp update was added.

To elaborate, I have nothing against the idea of an open-world pvp zone, and I'd actually probably enjoy it if it was designed well. It's just that, given cryptic's current track record for pvp implementation in this game, I just don't have a lot of faith that they'd pull it off successfully. I also don't really see most of the playerbase sticking with it, so a most likely "end scenario" would be the same handful of people hanging out there, kill trading (if rewards are kill-based) or finding some other way to cooperate-farm their way to rewards, as is the case with how everyone nowadays handles the OV system.

I should also note that a lot of the "doom and gloom" scenarios I'm bringing up are meant to put them on the radar so that, in the off chance something like this did happen, the chance is greater that they might be avoided.

Also, I hope we never see another animal pack again, but I'll not hold my breath on that one.

- - -

Anyway, before the devs embark on some big project like this, it might be better to "test the waters" by updating the current pvp rewards so that they're relevant again, put the various pvp queues on a daily rotation, and then toss in a daily quest or two to put it all on people's radars.

sterga · February 2018

I'm probably not the person to ask about the new player experience since I dislike ATs, have too many hours here, and started playing before F2P. But 'hi' anyway.

I thought they fixed the que bugs. If not: FFS.

"Aesica, those are the kind of people that believe just because their character is halwafay to immortal in PVE, that they should be just as good in PVP."

What does an immortal PvE toon have to do with PvP? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ No one was talking about this so why bring it up?

"PVP takes time to learn how to do, time to practice, time to create a build and master it, Learn how to fight it's possible counters."

Both WoW and Rift had level locking. Both of them removed this ability because even a PvP character in the best PvE gear at the top end of the level bracket is a freaking god that is hard as balls to kill. I know, I had those characters. Adding PvP gear into the mix makes this even worse. It requires zero skill to out gear the majority of other players. CO is also a gear based game. Gear is kind of important and making the balance between different gear levels even worse isn't going to make PvP more popular.

PvP specific gear: No thank you. Been there, done that, hated it. I am against it and will most likely not change my mind.

A big, empty zone for PvP does already exist (every zone not MC with team duels) and no one is interested in it. Why? Because it's boring and highlights balance issues CO has. That makes it a bad idea. Objective based PvP tends to be more popular than straight gank fests. There is a reason why PvP servers in MMOs are so few. Even among PvP players, the people that prefer this type of PvP is low. This suggestion does nothing to solve the lack of participation in PvP.

I freaking LOVED PvP in WoW, Rift, and WAR. PvP in CO has just never been good. Not having basic UI elements and the existence of stupid bugs does not help. CO PvP feels more like a hamfisted after thought than a meaningful part of the game.

lordnightmare · February 2018

Reminisces about the days of AT PvP popping every few minutes and leveling solely through it.

immaragequit · February 2018

sterga said:

A big, empty zone for PvP does already exist (every zone not MC with team duels) and no one is interested in it. Why? Because it's boring and highlights balance issues CO has. That makes it a bad idea. Objective based PvP tends to be more popular than straight gank fests. There is a reason why PvP servers in MMOs are so few. Even among PvP players, the people that prefer this type of PvP is low. This suggestion does nothing to solve the lack of participation in PvP.

Well that's exactly what I said in my first post, init? The reason team duels died after a few months of airtime was because it was no different than regular duels! Rarely did you find a group eager or willing to duel your team, and if your team was composed of stronger players, even less then!

We need an open world, all versus all PVP area, like bash, except without the absurd queue bug and queue requirements. I don't want to wait for four other people to join a queue, if it even pops in the first place.

And why're you agaisnt PVP gear? If you don't PVP anyway, what's the problem there? You're not obligated to participate in any duels, or queues for hero games. How does THAT affect you?

Bessides, outgearing people in this game takes farming in PVE, which is hardly a challenge! Anyone can have endgame top gear from grinding alone. What's the problem with grinding acclaim for PVP-specific gear? Perception cores have been a PVP-Mainly thing and they've been in the game for years. Nobody's complained about them so far, why you?

And even though biased, I accept your opinion. I see PVE the same way. An endless grind for currency, getting down the timings of the bosses after endless hours of fighting BRAINLESS AI. It's all about prefference, and all about "if you don't want it, just don't do it".

Again, after all the updates regarding costumes, PVE updates, expansions, new content, the PVP side of the community deserves something for once. Something that isn't a PVP-changing nerf. Something new and exciting, new rewards, new content, new modes.

bluhman · February 2018

please don't ostracize different playstyles that's not a great thing to do. I'll just remove that tangent and let the thread go on since there is some point to be made here but just please don't try and build your point by somehow implying the alternative is somehow objectively worse.

sterga · February 2018

I don't understand why anyone would want a big, empty zone for PvP when Bash can't even pop, which is basically the same thing. If there are so few people that like that type of PvP, wouldn't you still get bored to tears seeing the same two or three people all the time? You're basically asking for what seems like it would just be a zone dedicated to ganking and duels. But you can duel anywhere, including in the PoHo where you can experiment endlessly without the build respec costs.

"And why're you agaisnt PVP gear? If you don't PVP anyway, what's the problem there? You're not obligated to participate in any duels, or queues for hero games. How does THAT affect you?"

I already explained why I hate PvP gear. Twice. Considering I made it clear that I actually do like PvP but have been disappointed by what CO offers (or doesn't), anything new would matter to me. I was excited about OnSlaught and thought it was awesome for about two days until I saw the crap way it was implemented and balanced.

J-gear acquisition was changed due to a future Rampage revamp that still hasn't happened over a year later. Maybe you haven't noticed, but we've mostly been getting event based content. Not more Cosmics. Not more Rampages. Not more Epic lairs. Not more story missions. If the devs make a big, empty PvP zone, add K/D ratios, and flagging system, it means they are not making other types of content. That's how it affects me and every single other player in the game.

"Brainless" AI does not sound like challenging content. It sounds like boring content you do over and over and over again. Game companies like to do sleazy things like artificially extend content and gate desirable rewards with grind. They also like to push cash shop sales by adding grind. So, yes, I complain about grind in all of its forms.

As far as I see, nothing about this suggestion solves any problems with PvP, including the lack of players.

spinnytop · February 2018

sterga said:
I don't understand why anyone would want a big, empty zone for PvP when Bash can't even pop, which is basically the same thing. If there are so few people that like that type of PvP, wouldn't you still get bored to tears seeing the same two or three people all the time?

Well, I think the idea here is to make something that gets more people interested in pvp. I agree that the suggestion in the OP doesn't really do that.

a perfect "pvp" world

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