One Free Option From The Hybrid List?

wisedoom

Can anyone tell me why we only get one free option from the Hybrid option? When the other classes offers at least two?

spinnytop

Can anybody tell me why this is called a taco


and this is called a chilupa?

biffsmackwell

Chalupa.

chaosdrgnz43

It's probably best to save up for a freeform slot (or buy Gold/LTS Subscription). With FF slot, you can change whatever role you like. Be wary with the expenses in retconning.

beezeeze

I yam from California and I can say fer sure that neither of those things in a proper taco.

biffsmackwell

Don't be a taco snob. I'll eat a Taco Bell taco any day! Tacos be good.

qawsada

They tempt you to buy those AT in the zen shop or unlock them during an event. They want the money to fund the team or they want you to keep playing the game.

aesica

wisedoom wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why we only get one free option from the Hybrid option? When the other classes offers at least two?

That's just how it ended up I suppose. I don't think there's any real reason behind it.

As for why they have only a few free ATs and a bunch of paid ones, I have no idea. I think it's because they want their game to look less appealing to potential new players. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

chaosdrgnz43 wrote: »

It's probably best to save up for a freeform slot (or buy Gold/LTS Subscription). With FF slot, you can change whatever role you like. Be wary with the expenses in retconning.

With LTS, the costs of retcons thankfully become trivial (unless you do it all the time) thanks to all the retroactively-granted free respecs you get. But yeah, silver freeform requires a ton of planning and will bust your balls/ovaries in respec fees if you mess it up.​​

blockwave

What is the price of a full retcon when you are silver ?

chaosdrgnz43

blockwave said:

What is the price of a full retcon when you are silver ?

Based on experience roughly around 500-600G. And that's when you remove Specs LAST.

sterga

As far as I know Silver and Sub retcon cost are the same. However, Subs can get some free retcon tokens in addition to a per character one at 40. LTS players get them all the tokens at once to the tune of 5 or 6.​​

spinnytop

wisedoom said:

Can anyone tell me why we only get one free option from the Hybrid option? When the other classes offers at least two?

Is there any reason each category should offer the same amount?

chaelk

The AT's were originally created as samples, when the game went F2P.
They are the power sets that were there.
The rest are all ones which were made later, as new powers became available or they thought up new ones to make.

pantagruel01

To be fair, most of the hybrids are terrible, so not having access to them is no real hardship.

riverocean

pantagruel01 said:

To be fair, most of the hybrids are terrible, so not having access to them is no real hardship.

I was going to say something similar. Hybrid role is best used to build tanky dps builds. Which usually means a tough tanking passive combined with DPS specs.

If you use a DPS or Support passive with the hybrid role, you'll take a performance hit. Also, nothing's worst then bringing your Hybrid AT to an end game event and having the entire zone yell at you for messing up their buffs, or not providing enough dps.

So you are not missing out... really you aren't.


*Though the Void and the Specialist are really quite nice. But people will yell at you for using them end game anyway.*

deadman20

pantagruel01 wrote: »

most of the hybrids are terrible

​​

pantagruel01

riverocean said:

*Though the Void and the Specialist are really quite nice. But people will yell at you for using them end game anyway.*

The specialist is a no-DR AT. I don't recall if the Void has been fixed. That's sufficient to overcome the flaws of the build with top-end gear, but will still be inferior with less gear.

aesica

pantagruel01 wrote: »

To be fair, most of the hybrids are terrible, so not having access to them is no real hardship.

I was going to say that, but last time I did, people "pooped" themselves.

Edit: lolfilter​​

spinnytop

Eh, anytime someone asks which are the easiest ATs to level up, hybrids are always mentioned. There's more to the game than endgame.

pantagruel01

spinnytop said:

Eh, anytime someone asks which are the easiest ATs to level up, hybrids are always mentioned. There's more to the game than endgame.

I wouldn't say "hybrids" are always mentioned. The Savage is always mentioned, because it has regeneration. None of the other hybrid ATs look notably easy to level, they're basically dps ATs with inferior dps.

qawsada

pantagruel01 said:

The specialist is a no-DR AT. I don't recall if the Void has been fixed.

It was in the last nightmare event. It kind of sad that this is the only darkness power at and it not really great at what it does since it tries to shove DPS, summon, and Healing in one build.

markhawkman

qawsada said:

pantagruel01 said:

The specialist is a no-DR AT. I don't recall if the Void has been fixed.

It was in the last nightmare event. It kind of sad that this is the only darkness power at and it not really great at what it does since it tries to shove DPS, summon, and Healing in one build.

Mixing DPS with healing is practically the definition of Hybrid though

pantagruel01

Most hybrids are defensive passive dps.

spinnytop

pantagruel01 said:

I wouldn't say "hybrids" are always mentioned. The Savage is always mentioned, because it has regeneration. None of the other hybrid ATs look notably easy to level, they're basically dps ATs with inferior dps.

Void was fairly easy to level, as was the Impulse, and of course the Specialist. Hybrids were some of the easiest time I had leveling honestly, and faster than tanks.

pantagruel01

spinnytop said:

pantagruel01 said:

I wouldn't say "hybrids" are always mentioned. The Savage is always mentioned, because it has regeneration. None of the other hybrid ATs look notably easy to level, they're basically dps ATs with inferior dps.

Void was fairly easy to level, as was the Impulse, and of course the Specialist. Hybrids were some of the easiest time I had leveling honestly, and faster than tanks.

The last two ATs I leveled were an Icicle and a Predator, and they were plenty easy. I would expect the Soldier and Scourge would be similarly easy.

deadman20

Hybrids are meant to be just that, hybrids. They aren't specialized in one specific role like most DPS, Tanks, or Supports. They're meant to mix multiple roles together and achieve a balanced state in combat. They're not going to be the best at one role because that's not what they're there for. Hybrids are Hybrids. How they go about achieving their goals can be quirky and sometimes inefficient, but they're great at breaking up the ever present trinity feeling people are oh-so peeved over.

Though, I do wish that there was at least one or two extra Silver Hybrid ATs. They're probably the most important role for new players to wrap around because they show the most potential in all situations.​​

wisedoom

I guess according to Spinnytop's logic, it's okay for Cryptic to do all they can to keep people from enjoying this game....such as offering people more Archtype's to try out and spaces to put them in. Am I correct?

pantagruel01

deadman20 said:

Hybrids are meant to be just that, hybrids. They aren't specialized in one specific role like most DPS, Tanks, or Supports. They're meant to mix multiple roles together and achieve a balanced state in combat.

In practice, this isn't actually a useful thing to do; you're going to pay a 30-40% penalty on each role, plus you're still only performing one role at a time, so with an even split between two roles you're worth maybe 1/3 of a specialist in each role. Now, if you only need a fraction of a specialist that can be worthwhile, but most content in CO can either be done with no roles other than dps, or requires a full specialist.

The other thing about mixing roles is that the best way to make a mixed role character in CO is to have two passives and use build switching, and ATs don't have access to the builds tab. Build switching is a bit slower than switching as a hybrid, but only results in a 10-20% penalty in each role.

wisedoom said:

I guess according to Spinnytop's logic, it's okay for Cryptic to do all they can to keep people from enjoying this game....such as offering people more Archtype's to try out and spaces to put them in. Am I correct?

It's okay for Cryptic to try to get people to spend money...

spinnytop

pantagruel01 said:

The last two ATs I leveled were an Icicle and a Predator, and they were plenty easy. I would expect the Soldier and Scourge would be similarly easy.

Yeah, all ATs are easy to level, cause the game is easy. Hybrids tend to have a great combination of survival ability and damage output. Almost as easy as tanks ( and often easier ), and faster. Hybrid category has a lot of good entries.

wisedoom said:

I guess according to Spinnytop's logic, it's okay for Cryptic to do all they can to keep people from enjoying this game....such as offering people more Archtype's to try out and spaces to put them in. Am I correct?

making more ATs = preventing enjoyment? Interesting theory. Elaborate?

pantagruel01 said:

The other thing about mixing roles is that the best way to make a mixed role character in CO is to have two passives and use build switching, and ATs don't have access to the builds tab. Build switching is a bit slower than switching as a hybrid, but only results in a 10-20% penalty in each role.

I dunno, lately I've been doing the hybrid thing and it's been a lot of fun and quite effective. I'm actually moving away from the dual passive thing - the major weakness there is that you can only be one role at a time, while the hybrid can be both simultaneously ( also, you get 1 more power! ). The vast majority of content also doesn't require the dps that a specialized dps character brings, so the versatility of a hybrid is quite useful and effective in most of the game. I think the notion of "specialized toons only" is one that people latched onto a bit too hastily and perhaps it's time to explore a bit more.

pantagruel01

spinnytop said:

The vast majority of content also doesn't require the dps that a specialized dps character brings, so the versatility of a hybrid is quite useful and effective in most of the game. I think the notion of "specialized toons only" is one that people latched onto a bit too hastily and perhaps it's time to explore a bit more.

Most content can be done in any role; dps will just do it faster. The exception is content with stuff that is durable enough and hard hitting enough that even a con-specced dps dies, and that usually also kills hybrids as well unless they're regen or invuln.

spinnytop

pantagruel01 said:

Most content can be done in any role; dps will just do it faster. The exception is content with stuff that is durable enough and hard hitting enough that even a con-specced dps dies, and that usually also kills hybrids as well unless they're regen or invuln.

"Finishing fast" isn't always what matters. In fact some people might prefer to take it slow and enjoy themselves

Fact stands, hybrid ATs have some good options, and hybrids are very effective both solo and in groups. You can even see that some of the powerset updates are promoting the playstyle.

markhawkman

pantagruel01 said:

spinnytop said:

The vast majority of content also doesn't require the dps that a specialized dps character brings, so the versatility of a hybrid is quite useful and effective in most of the game. I think the notion of "specialized toons only" is one that people latched onto a bit too hastily and perhaps it's time to explore a bit more.

Most content can be done in any role; dps will just do it faster. The exception is content with stuff that is durable enough and hard hitting enough that even a con-specced dps dies, and that usually also kills hybrids as well unless they're regen or invuln.

Or stuff like whiteout where you get ambushed constantly.

deadman20

pantagruel01 wrote: »

In practice, this isn't actually a useful thing to do; you're going to pay a 30-40% penalty on each role, plus you're still only performing one role at a time, so with an even split between two roles you're worth maybe 1/3 of a specialist in each role.

That entirely depends on how the Hybrid is built and how the person plays. Like I said, it is usually inefficient to go Hybrid when a specialized role can perform better under certain conditions, but the Hybrid is meant to be versatile. Utilizing that versatility is up to the player.​​

beezeeze

biffsmackwell said:

Don't be a taco snob. I'll eat a Taco Bell taco any day! Tacos be good.

Ill eat both tho... regardless those are not tacos.

beezeeze

beezeeze said:

biffsmackwell said:

Don't be a taco snob. I'll eat a Taco Bell taco any day! Tacos be good.

Ill eat both tho... regardless those are not tacos.

corn tortilla, pico de gallo, and meat. That is a proper taco.

aesica

spinnytop wrote: »

I dunno, lately I've been doing the hybrid thing and it's been a lot of fun and quite effective. I'm actually moving away from the dual passive thing - the major weakness there is that you can only be one role at a time, while the hybrid can be both simultaneously

You can technically be any role (or combination of roles) your build allows for, regardless of which role setting you have on display. Case in point, I ended up tanking a few clarences on Aes (unintentionally) since I never bothered to give her a threat wipe. Each time, she was in melee damage role with an offensive passive. Would being in hybrid have helped any? Probably not, because even though her self healing would've gone up, she'd still be using a dps passive. If anything, her threat would've gone down due to decreased damage output.

She also generates a bit of group healing (but not much) so should even though functionally she behaves like a hybrid, she's not using the hybrid role because I wanted her to focus mainly on damage. If I want her to legitimately tank, it'd be more effective to just put her in the tank role with a defensive passive than to use hybrid.

spinnytop wrote: »

The vast majority of content also doesn't require the dps that a specialized dps character brings, so the versatility of a hybrid is quite useful and effective in most of the game.

Perhaps, however specialized healers are going to do a better job at healing everyone. Specialized tanks are going to do a better job staying alive and generating threat, and specialized dps are going to do a better job at killing things quickly and thus, getting through repetitive content faster.

spinnytop wrote: »

I think the notion of "specialized toons only" is one that people latched onto a bit too hastily and perhaps it's time to explore a bit more.

I don't entirely disagree with you on this, actually. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the role-sorting crap in this game tossed out. Do we really need 1) role selection, 2) passives, and in some cases, 3) forms all designating players as a tank, a dps, or a healer? Not really. Unfortunately, when you introduce "highly challenging" (read: heavy-hitting things with huge HP pools + dps checks, ie cosmics) people are "strongly encouraged" to specialize. A hybrid tank might not be able to survive huge hits where a tank role user could, a hybrid healer might not be able to keep people alive as well as a dedicated healer, and damage-dealers who want to pass dps checks should probably try to push their damage output as high as possible via specializing in damage.

If you wanted to just brush away cosmic-level content, you could also probably get rid of the roles and everyone could focus more on hybrid-style characters. I get the feeling that's not something most people who play this game want at this point, though. They seem to like their specialization.

- - -

That aside, have we traded places? I just finished respecing the last of my hybrid characters into a dual passive user, and you're moving away from dual passives and into the hybrids I used to use? This is some twilight zone **** right here.​​

spinnytop

aesica said:

That aside, have we traded places? I just finished respecing the last of my hybrid characters into a dual passive user, and you're moving away from dual passives and into the hybrids I used to use? This is some twilight zone **** right here.​​

Don't get too excited, I only have 1 hybrid right now. Also we wouldn't be trading places unless you were suddenly super into glass cannons and crowd control attacks and I started doing whatever it is you do.

aesica said:

You can technically be any role (or combination of roles) your build allows for, regardless of which role setting you have on display.

My hybrid is a damage dealer+healer in support role o3o so what you typed wasn't really something I needed explained.

pantagruel01

deadman20 said:

That entirely depends on how the Hybrid is built and how the person plays. Like I said, it is usually inefficient to go Hybrid when a specialized role can perform better under certain conditions, but the Hybrid is meant to be versatile. Utilizing that versatility is up to the player.​​

Utilizing that versatility is also dependent on that versatility having a use. Depending on the content, it might not. The major use for hybrids is solo or small team content (larger teams do better with specialization) that requires more durability than a dps offers, and doesn't want take forever doing it. The Savage is an excellent design for that, the Specialist (if you choose LR; WotW builds would be better off in Brawler role) is pretty good, I would expect both then Void and the Grimoire to suffer from taking forever. The Impulse suffers from PFF, though that might be okay in medium difficulty solo content, I haven't tried it. The Night Warrior has no excuse for not using an offensive role.

spinnytop

I dunno, all those Kiga runs where people keep screaming "stop dying!" make me think that hybrids have a good place in large team content too. Sure you can say "that's only one example", but that one example accounts for 25% of our large group endgame content.

The "my character does one thing, and everything they have is all about that" characters are neat, but versatile characters can be pretty great too.

wisedoom

I just know Cryptic should be able to offer more options for Archtypes and space for them to be made on. You suck the fun out of the game, if you're not given better options. Why should pay to play have a role in any gaming industry if they're not going to comply to the standards of the consumers?

markhawkman

spinnytop said:

I dunno, all those Kiga runs where people keep screaming "stop dying!" make me think that hybrids have a good place in large team content too. Sure you can say "that's only one example", but that one example accounts for 25% of our large group endgame content.

The "my character does one thing, and everything they have is all about that" characters are neat, but versatile characters can be pretty great too.

Yeah, I hear that a lot and SEE it a lot too. But when I play on Tsin'xing(or anyone but Nelko really) I don't take enough damage from blizzards to worry about them. Because Nelko is glass cannony sort of DPs, and the others aren't.

pantagruel01

spinnytop said:

I dunno, all those Kiga runs where people keep screaming "stop dying!" make me think that hybrids have a good place in large team content too.

Adding one more healer to the fight will do more to cut down on deaths than adding a dozen hybrids. The deaths that can't be fixed with 'more healers' are mostly caused by errors that will kill a hybrid too.

deadman20

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Adding one more healer to the fight will do more to cut down on deaths than adding a dozen hybrids. The deaths that can't be fixed with 'more healers' are mostly caused by errors that will kill a hybrid too.

Void AT with Lifedrain+Vampiric Sympathy is a pretty good Hybrid to have for Kigatilik. Kiga's storms aren't THAT deadly unless people both lack a Support's AoRP AND forget to block. Even then, the supplemental healing from Void's Vampiric Sympathy is usually strong enough to help the DPS pile withstand it.

Honestly, I think the strongest Hybrids are the ones capable of utilizing the Healing Bonus from their superstats. They make great off-healers.​​

kamokami

Hybrid role characters can help the broader group. Don't think anyone's claiming that it's impossible for them to do so.

At the same time, I have never seen anyone say "X is up, need Hybrids". It's usually "need Tanks" "need Healers" "need DPS". It's quite challenging to think of a build that would allow a Hybrid to be as helpful as its dual passive equivalent which can take advantage of the role bonuses. Maybe an Offtank/Healer in TA + Qzone OMs? Even then it'd likely be better to swap to support role as soon as the Healer is able to.

That's not to say that everyone has to be helpful all the time.

Kiga and Ape are on farm status atm...so it doesn't really matter how many people are in Hybrid role mostly because it also doesn't really matter how helpful people are in those fights. Dino is on farm status as well, but the balance can more easily swing into not making any checks and once the struggle begins so does the finger pointing.

Eido won't be on farm status until public unlocks become common. Until then expect that those who put in the effort to unlock him will want the most number of helpful people to show up.

pantagruel01

kamokami said:

It's quite challenging to think of a build that would allow a Hybrid to be as helpful as its dual passive equivalent which can take advantage of the role bonuses.

It's certainly possible to construct a fight that has a minimum effective health requirement that's tough for a dps to beat. Even with top gear and an r3 block, once you need to survive hits in the 100k range you're looking at either a defensive passive or a pretty large investment in con. However, "this fight cannot be done by squishy characters" is not going to be popular...

markhawkman

deadman20 said:

pantagruel01 said:

Adding one more healer to the fight will do more to cut down on deaths than adding a dozen hybrids. The deaths that can't be fixed with 'more healers' are mostly caused by errors that will kill a hybrid too.

Void AT with Lifedrain+Vampiric Sympathy is a pretty good Hybrid to have for Kigatilik. Kiga's storms aren't THAT deadly unless people both lack a Support's AoRP AND forget to block. Even then, the supplemental healing from Void's Vampiric Sympathy is usually strong enough to help the DPS pile withstand it.

Honestly, I think the strongest Hybrids are the ones capable of utilizing the Healing Bonus from their superstats. They make great off-healers.​​

When I use Tsin'xing I spam Poz, I think it only heals for around 100 per tick though But, it can heal a lot of people if I'm in a big group.

spinnytop

kamokami said:

At the same time, I have never seen anyone say "X is up, need Hybrids".

Of course nobody asks for hybrids, how would that even work? Hybrids are too potentially diverse for you to specifically ask for them since they generally cross multiple roles. You don't ask for hybrids, you ask for roles and hybrids fill the roles they can fill or they just show up and make the specialist's jobs easier while contributing in other ways as well.

kamokami said:

Hybrid role characters can help the broader group. Don't think anyone's claiming that it's impossible for them to do so.

Okay, but then you end your post with the following statement:

kamokami said:

Until then expect that those who put in the effort to unlock him will want the most number of helpful people to show up.

Which heavily implies that hybrids are not "helpful people". If that's not what the statement means, then who is it referring to? So, can hybrids be helpful or are they inherently not helpful?

pantagruel01

spinnytop said:

Of course nobody asks for hybrids, how would that even work? Hybrids are too potentially diverse for you to specifically ask for them....

Which heavily implies that hybrids are not "helpful people". If that's not what the statement means, then who is it referring to? So, can hybrids be helpful or are they inherently not helpful?

A hybrid is inherently less competent at any given role than a specialist. This doesn't mean useless, it just means the specialist is more useful. The situation in which a hybrid might be superior is when a particular role is either only needed part time, requires less than a single character's worth of ability, or involves some odd combination of traits not normally found on a specialist (in which case the hybrid might still be a specialist, just a specialist at something unusual). Add management in TA is a reasonable example where a hybrid may be optional, as most of the adds do not require full time management.

kamokami

spinnytop said:

Of course nobody asks for hybrids, how would that even work?

It wouldn't.

spinnytop said:

you ask for roles and hybrids fill the roles they can fill or they just show up and make the specialist's jobs easier while contributing in other ways as well.

Or they make the specialists job harder. Just like any other player in any other role. The main difference being that they have a lower ceiling on how much they can contribute vs their specialist equivalent pretty much by definition.

spinnytop said:

If that's not what the statement means, then who is it referring to?

It's referring to the people who don't care about their level of helpfulness in group content.

spinnytop said:

So, can hybrids be helpful or are they inherently not helpful?

No broad group of people is inherently helpful. But everyone has the capacity for it if they care to do it. Let's not take what was said at the start and what was said at the end and just skip the middle. I'll repost the middle with some emphasis.

It's quite challenging to think of a build that would allow a Hybrid to be as helpful as its dual passive equivalent which can take advantage of the role bonuses. Maybe an Offtank/Healer in TA + Qzone OMs? Even then it'd likely be better to swap to support role as soon as the Healer is able to.

That's not to say that everyone has to be helpful all the time.

Kiga and Ape are on farm status atm...so it doesn't really matter how many people are in Hybrid role mostly because it also doesn't really matter how helpful people are in those fights.

Nothing in there says Hybrids can't be helpful (at all). This sums it up nicely:

pantagruel01 said:

A hybrid is inherently less competent at any given role than a specialist. This doesn't mean useless, it just means the specialist is more useful.

kamokami

It's worth noting that with a significant understanding of the fight's mechanics, power synergies, and debuffs it's totally possible to design builds that use AoED or Seraphim in Hybrid role whose total contribution to the success of an encounter is greater than that of most specialists.

Even if they don't heal more than the healer, or do more damage than the dps...it's very possible that the sum total of this character's healing+damage dealt, esp if they throw in some debuffs, will be more helpful in finishing a fight.

But to pull this off the player would need to design the character for it and really care about their level of helpfulness. It's safe to say that while this is doable it's also more difficult and quite specialized. I think that any other passive would be better off with its specialist role.

spinnytop

A hybrid is less competent at one role than a specialist, yes. But that completely misses the point of a hybrid. You're judging them on the performance metric of one role, when they're not one role and the point of the hybrid was never to fulfill only one role. It's like you got one guy shoveling rocks, and you got the other guy shoveling rocks and chopping wood and you say "well the guy only shoveling rocks shoveled more rocks so he's more helpful". You're using the wrong metric.

Yes, the current changes that the devs are implementing make playing a specialist more rewarding, but why did that mean that people had to go whole-hog into "specialists only" thinking? And to clarify, I'm not talking about who you invite, I'm talking about how people think about building and group makeup. CO has this great freeform system and people use it to build....tank/healer/dps trinity groups :T The fact that people only invite specialists is just a symptom of that.


Also the parts you highlighted in green don't really disagree with what I said. Saying "people don't have to be helpful all the time" doesn't really say "hybrids are helpful"... it pretty much says the opposite, "when someone is playing a hybrid they are not being helpful". I don't know what you thought that context would say, but it says pretty clearly that you don't find hybrid builds to be helpful and you'd prefer it if they changed to a dual passive ( forget that in some cases being a dual passive would make no sense in the context of someone's build ).