Shoving at Cosmics

chaosdrgnz43

We really need to shed some light on this subject. I know you're all familiar with the shoving or weird sliding during cosmic fights. It's more apparent when Ape does his AoE and the melee lunge back. Those in melee would often "slide" to the far side when others lunge at ape. This still happens even when you walk to ape, blocking.

Majority blame the growth-users because they're the most noticeable when it happens. However, I don't think that is entirely true since normal-sized toons still get shoved by others.

So, to the devs, how do you think you can solve this? I have a few suggestions...

1) Lessen collision/hitbox of players. (Especially big players, or...)
2) Make all collision/hitbox of players the same regardless of size.
3) Make Giant Growth into a Non-Combat aura only (This one is probably the best option. Most growth-users rp only anyway, so don't see a harm in this.)
4) Remove Giant Growth FX (Growth users will hate this. But since many are complaining how obnoxious it is-especially with reciprocating gizmo adv-I don't think it will cause that much harm. Won't hurt to remove something unique to this game for the sake of efficiency, right?)

ealford1985

1 & 2 are more of the area they need to look.


No to 3 & 4...forever.

If growths are becoming an issues than just don't have them for cosmic fights...same reason people don't bring pets. Removing them just because of cosmic fights is only appealing for a small group, not the masses.

shadowolf505

I agree, giant growth is becoming a nuisance at Cosmics. Especially at Kigatilik where you get pushed into the breath range.

rtma

This has nothing to do with Enrage, it's just a visual effect, it doesn't change your collision cylinder, unless it is something that does like Draysha gas or Artificial life injector but it's minor, as for shoving, I've noticed something odd happen earlier in the year, players being able to push me aside that was virtually incapable before hand, something to do with how player collision detection with each other and how the server updates it (maybe something to do with client hit detection? desync?), when others push you aside the server priorities cause they're faster when it comes to moving or/and have lower ping thus update before you, it wasn't like this last year... (It's like when someone pushing against you with Teleportation in order to move your character because of this)

spinnytop

You know this reminds me of a suggestion I made a long, long time ago where I suggested that they give all ranged attacks "point blank damage", where they do more damage the closer to your target you are. Someone pointed out that they would hate this because it would mean all the ranged would be crowding in with the melee to try to do max damage.

Well... I guess we're seeing this in action now lol, since melee doing a significantly greater amount of damage than ranged is basically that in action. I guess that's why more and more every time I go to cosmics I see more melee, and less ranged ( especially at dino ). Recently got a new melee dps to 40 and headed to cosmics with it...felt like trying to go shopping on Black Friday xD

chaosdrgnz43 said:

1) Lessen collision/hitbox of players. (Especially big players, or...)
2) Make all collision/hitbox of players the same regardless of size.
3) Make Giant Growth into a Non-Combat aura only (This one is probably the best option. Most growth-users rp only anyway, so don't see a harm in this.)
4) Remove Giant Growth FX (Growth users will hate this. But since many are complaining how obnoxious it is-especially with reciprocating gizmo adv-I don't think it will cause that much harm. Won't hurt to remove something unique to this game for the sake of efficiency, right?)

#1 & #2 might work... or it might only temporarily alleviate the problem until people feel comfortable bringing even more melee toons ( for dat high score! ) and then you just have even more people mashed in there and the problem begins anew!

#3 & #4 would be the more long term solution. Completely disabling these effects in combat solves a lot of problems. Being super big is neat, but it's the same as being super fat on the bus or subway - I'm sure you're enjoying your huge body, but everyone around you is being inconvenienced by it.


Then there's solution #5... people just stop bringing so many melee to fights and instead switch to a ranged, and stop being so concerned about being absolutely tip top on the scoreboard ( and realize that ranged dps can beat dino too ). I doubt people could be so rational tho, it's all 'bout dat scoreboard!


Solution #6... disable collision entirely ( if possible only during cosmics ). This is how other games solve the problem, they just don't have collision to begin with if they're gonna have 40+ player content. However I wonder if the shove pit is actually a balancing factor, so we don't just bring only melee dps characters for maximum dps :'3

aesica

spinnytop wrote: »

Then there's solution #5... people just stop bringing so many melee to fights and instead switch to a ranged, and stop being so concerned about being absolutely tip top on the scoreboard ( and realize that ranged dps can beat dino too ). I doubt people could be so rational tho, it's all 'bout dat scoreboard!

In fairness, players pushing endgame content in any game tend to gravitate toward whatever performs the best. If this game favors melee in terms of damage output (that's utterly terrible if so) then that's unfortunate because there's much better ways to balance the two. (Or they could just do away with the divide completely and allow for the mixing of ranged and melee powers without penalty--gasp!)

As for the scoreboard, as long as it exists, people are going to chase it. You can't expect people to just change their ways on this because it goes against humans' competitive nature.

spinnytop wrote: »

Solution #6... disable collision entirely ( if possible only during cosmics ). This is how other games solve the problem, they just don't have collision to begin with if they're gonna have 40+ player content. However I wonder if the shove pit is actually a balancing factor, so we don't just bring only melee dps characters for maximum dps :'3

Wow doesn't have player-player (or even player-enemy) collisions and it makes positioning and the gameplay in general feel a lot better. In CO, player collisions don't add anything of value besides annoyance.

chaosdrgnz43 wrote: »

3) Make Giant Growth into a Non-Combat aura only (This one is probably the best option. Most growth-users rp only anyway, so don't see a harm in this.)
4) Remove Giant Growth FX (Growth users will hate this. But since many are complaining how obnoxious it is-especially with reciprocating gizmo adv-I don't think it will cause that much harm. Won't hurt to remove something unique to this game for the sake of efficiency, right?)

As much as I'd LOVE for this to happen, I can only begin to imagine the outrage it'd cause.

"But I want to be the fat guy on the bus who crowds you out of your seat!"

At the very least, an option to ignore/not see other players' growth effects would be fantastic.​​

theravenforce

There should technically be a way to make combat auras which allow players to either grow to a certain size or shrink to a certain size (likely to be max ends of Super Shrinker and Super Growth devices).

I guess it could be, made so that it is just a visual aspect, so the hitboxes of everyone would remain the same size, but visually they are larger / smaller.

You can sort of see this when you apply two different kinds of bubbles. Protection Field seems to scale to target's visual size regardless of anything. Whereas Mindful Reinforcement scales to a set size it seems.

Personally, my main draw is "super shrink", I'd love an aura which allows me to be tiny in combat yet not cause any problems for normal combat.

I assume something like that could be done...however, based on previous discussions around this topic...I guess what is most likely to happen is that Giant Growth or size manipulation is simply suppressed in Cosmic instances, possibly by some freaky "normalization aura" or something...

jaazaniah1

This isn't entirely true. Most tanks are going to score relatively low. I often bring an AoAC or AoED and I'm always in the lower third. I don't care about the score. I want the reward in the most expeditious way possibl.e

aesica said:

As for the scoreboard, as long as it exists, people are going to chase it. You can't expect people to just change their ways on this because it goes against humans' competitive nature.

​​

omnilord

On the other side of the same coin, then the Cosmics should suppress the 37 eye gouging auras people have on. Because I lose track of what my toon's doing when I'm surrounded by people that look like miniature stars. Sometimes I get interrupted or my energy was too low to initiate an attack, and I don't realize it because I can't see that my character didn't make their attack.

Or you wanna know what'd be better? If EVERYBODY was just reverted to the default character models, without auras, or size changing and everybody was the Unleashed AT. That way there would always be a balance between the ranged and melee with swords and guns. Yep yep!

flyingfinn

Maybe if these fights would allow flight....
Not so may people would be beating the villains ankles and take the fight to a more appropriate level, where your hits actually counted. Like the head.

pwestolemyname

spinnytop said:

Solution #6... disable collision entirely ( if possible only during cosmics ). This is how other games solve the problem, they just don't have collision to begin with if they're gonna have 40+ player content. However I wonder if the shove pit is actually a balancing factor, so we don't just bring only melee dps characters for maximum dps :'3

So, would this mean that people could essentially stand "in" each other, that is, in the exact same spot?

Also, I agree with whoever said that this seems like a new problem. In the past, I do not recall ever getting shoved. Seems like that was up until a few months ago, when it started to become a real issue.

Another solution would be to extend the hit-box of Cosmics out past their skin. Shoving is a problem when too many people need to get close enough to hit. So, if you could hit the Cosmic from 15 feet, instead of just 10, then that would create more space for people to stand.

Unknown

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championshewolf

Here we go again, with Gradii's misinformation. STO uses the same collision engine. The differences is that you don't have bigger models that actually increases the collision hit box like CO does. The bits that cause the issue with pushing is the result of the prediction conflicting with any slight changes in hit box that occur. Hence why someone teleport pushing someone can do it since the teleport fuzzy has a smaller hit box than a maxed out slider character model.

pantagruel01

Teleport actually sets no-collision (you can see it on the tooltip).

nepht

omnilord#8416 said:

On the other side of the same coin, then the Cosmics should suppress the 37 eye gouging auras people have on. Because I lose track of what my toon's doing when I'm surrounded by people that look like miniature stars. Sometimes I get interrupted or my energy was too low to initiate an attack, and I don't realize it because I can't see that my character didn't make their attack.

Or you wanna know what'd be better? If EVERYBODY was just reverted to the default character models, without auras, or size changing and everybody was the Unleashed AT. That way there would always be a balance between the ranged and melee with swords and guns. Yep yep!

This. Just have a AOE that turns off auras and effects like giant growth at cosmics. Problem solved.

omnilord

championshewolf said:

Here we go again, with Gradii's misinformation. STO uses the same collision engine. The differences is that you don't have bigger models that actually increases the collision hit box like CO does. The bits that cause the issue with pushing is the result of the prediction conflicting with any slight changes in hit box that occur. Hence why someone teleport pushing someone can do it since the teleport fuzzy has a smaller hit box than a maxed out slider character model.

Even if there's two characters using the default proportions, they still can't stand as close to each other as they can in STO. Or did you mean that -because- we can change sizes in CO, they made the normal hitbox larger so the game can predict collisions easier?

championshewolf

omnilord#8416 said:

Even if there's two characters using the default proportions, they still can't stand as close to each other as they can in STO. Or did you mean that -because- we can change sizes in CO, they made the normal hitbox larger so the game can predict collisions easier?

The hit boxes in CO are their size mostly to accommodate various costume pieces that can be applied and the size of this hit box can change based on the size of the avatar as well as probably the travel powers themselves, not to mention the collision versus certain critters in the game, such as Teleiosaurus. Certain growth devices will make your hit box larger just like certain shrink devices will change it. I doubt the hit boxes will be changed and regardless of effect, people would still get pushed around due to the fact of the prediction engine trying to predict where you should be versus what is in the location.

The avatars in STO never have their hit box change but you can still push people around in STO, just the number of methods that can be used is less, since they don't have a bunch of high speed travel powers to abuse it so in general you won't see the effects of someone abusing say teleport, but it does happen there, it's just not as noticeable or abusable because of those facts. In the end little can be done about the prediction engine to prevent it. Even if the hit boxes were smaller, people could still push you out of the way, and outside of them writing a brand new engine for it I doubt it will change much.

pantagruel01

Removing wing selection boxes would be a blessing. It doesn't affect collision, but it does make clicking on things a giant PITA.

championshewolf

pantagruel01 said:

Removing wing selection boxes would be a blessing. It doesn't affect collision, but it does make clicking on things a giant PITA.

Wings and tails since it seems a lot of people can't have either without making them ridiculously huge.

pantagruel01

Really, selection boxes for all characters should be the same size. It would also allow shrinking without being OP.

pantagruel01

championshewolf said:

I don't think zenith was actually bothering to read the statement of the selection box. I think they are imagining we are talking about removing the costumes in general. But whatever. *shrugs*

chaosdrgnz43 did suggest removing. Personally, I have characters where I'd want to use both Growth and Shrinking if the one didn't cause problems and the other wasn't forbidden, and constant size hit/selection boxes would solve that.

kaiserin

Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.

However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

catstarsto

kaizerin said:

Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.



However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

would that mean giant growth would cost a point now? Since its currently only a visual effect atm.

chaosdrgnz43

kaizerin said:

Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.



However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

I can assume there will be a debuff during cosmics that prevents growth or other obnoxious fx. Not a bad idea actually.

pantagruel01

chaosdrgnz43 said:

I can assume there will be a debuff during cosmics that prevents growth or other obnoxious fx. Not a bad idea actually.

Cosmics are already immune to a lot of obnoxious fx. Ah, for the good old days when all fx played on the Harbinger and your frame rate dropped to 0.2 in Lemurian Invasion.

chaosdrgnz43

pantagruel01 said:

chaosdrgnz43 said:

I can assume there will be a debuff during cosmics that prevents growth or other obnoxious fx. Not a bad idea actually.

Cosmics are already immune to a lot of obnoxious fx. Ah, for the good old days when all fx played on the Harbinger and your frame rate dropped to 0.2 in Lemurian Invasion.

Actually, I meant a debuff for the players, not the cosmics themselves. Probably like the "Fighting Supervillains!" debuff or something.

Unknown

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spinnytop

pandoraslockbox said:

heh... I still haven't had a problem with this. Just stand to the side like I do! Or use jump to stand on top of people.

Then you just haven't been to a cosmic with enough melee present.

decorumfriends

kaizerin said:

Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.



However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

That'd be the best solution I can see. Certainly better than doing anything permanent to the size-changing itself. The problem is at cosmics, let the solution match.

championshewolf

decorumfriends said:

That'd be the best solution I can see. Certainly better than doing anything permanent to the size-changing itself. The problem is at cosmics, let the solution match.

Define let the solution match? There is absolutely no instance at any cosmic fight that giant growth is necessary or even beneficial. And in all instances, tends to be detrimental.

spinnytop

championshewolf said:

Define let the solution match? There is absolutely no instance at any cosmic fight that giant growth is necessary or even beneficial. And in all instances, tends to be detrimental.

He means since the problem is only at cosmics, then let the solution only be at cosmics.

ealford1985

^ im okay with that

championshewolf

spinnytop said:

championshewolf said:

Define let the solution match? There is absolutely no instance at any cosmic fight that giant growth is necessary or even beneficial. And in all instances, tends to be detrimental.

He means since the problem is only at cosmics, then let the solution only be at cosmics.

I don't think it's really been discussed anywhere else. This thread is about cosmics and no one has stated to the contrary.

pantagruel01

Shoving is mostly an issue at large event fights, though you can probably annoy people by standing in a doorway in an instance. Hitboxes that make it impossible to click on the thing you want to click on are an annoyance of wings anywhere, but if any hitboxes are being fixed, I'd rather see object hitboxes fixed so clicking on an object doesn't instead select an object 50' away and offscreen.

spinnytop

championshewolf said:

I don't think it's really been discussed anywhere else. This thread is about cosmics and no one has stated to the contrary.

Well, that's why it was so easy for me to guess that that's what he meant.

decorumfriends

I really didn't think it was that unclear, but, yes, Spinny "translated" for me.

Let the solution be at cosmics, other than "doing something permanent to growth" which had several suggestions here.

mithrosnomore

spinnytop said:

Then there's solution #5... people just stop bringing so many melee to fights and instead switch to a ranged, and stop being so concerned about being absolutely tip top on the scoreboard ( and realize that ranged dps can beat dino too ). I doubt people could be so rational tho, it's all 'bout dat scoreboard!

I don't bring my melee toon to cosmics to get a higher score, I bring them because they have a mission to take down that cosmic, or I want them to get some SCR/GCR for whatever reason, or just because I happened to be playing them when the call went out.

Besides, if the numbers/roles are ready to fight, I don't see people holding off while a few people switch out their melee DPS for ranged DPS as a courtesy to the others playing melee DPS anyway, and it's also unlikely that anyone would remember that this and that person switched to ranged last time, so someone else needs to switch out this time.

rtma

@kaizerin
Is it really that bad that it's actually been considered?
-.=.-
Giant Growth adv on Enrage is just an effect (Unless their is something underlying that we the players don't know), it doesn't shove anybody, player collision does... fix that.

spinnytop

rtma said:

@kaizerin
Is it really that bad that it's actually been considered?
-.=.-
Giant Growth adv on Enrage is just an effect (Unless their is something underlying that we the players don't know), it doesn't shove anybody, player collision does... fix that.

EXCUSE ME! *7 foot tall 800 pound fatty sits down in front of you at the movie theater* ~3~ No it's fine as long as we're not touching right?

biffsmackwell

rtma said:

@kaizerin
Is it really that bad that it's actually been considered?
-.=.-
Giant Growth adv on Enrage is just an effect (Unless their is something underlying that we the players don't know), it doesn't shove anybody, player collision does... fix that.

Large characters do seem to take up a lot more space than a normal character. I've literally had to sit out of cosmic fights (Kigs and Teleiosaurus, mainly) more than once because my melee character can't get into melee range because a gigantic guy with all his sliders thrown all the way to the right and probably also has giant growth was in melee range. (In all fairness, it's often due to just an overabundance of melee characters present, but the huge-os do not help.)

Whether it's shoving or it's just someone taking up the space that 6 people could fit in, if I'm forced to take a spot that's gonna get smacked by the tail or irradiated by breath, or if I have to step off the platform at Kigs and get on his side because there's too many huge-os, it's annoying and frustrating. I either don't get to participate, or I participate enough to get rewards and then leech the rest of the fight because some giant decided to take up most of the melee space.

Out of common courtesy, people with huge characters could make tiny versions of their costumes. I have kid versions of my characters (that aren't even that big and don't even use growth effects at all) and I sometimes throw these on when there's big folks about just so I can take up less space.


I love playing melee characters, specifically Might characters, but very often after I've finally gotten Distinguished on my melee character, I'll take a huge break and play some ranged characters just to get some freedom, mostly because the encounters basically always favor and give freedom to ranged, but also because I don't have to deal with huge-os.

To directly answer the question, it's a big enough problem that personally, I've complained about it dozens of times.

omnilord

Actually. Making more compact Cosmic compatible costumes isn't a bad idea. I mean, at Cosmics it -is- all about damage, right? There's whole other portions of the game to show off how imposing our toons are supposed to look.

championshewolf

rtma said:

@kaizerin
Is it really that bad that it's actually been considered?
-.=.-
Giant Growth adv on Enrage is just an effect (Unless their is something underlying that we the players don't know), it doesn't shove anybody, player collision does... fix that.

Larger characters take up more space, and larger characters also take up more system resources to render. A larger character has a larger hit box, and a larger target box in the case of mouse clicking, since the tab targeting isn't the best in the world in this game (never mind getting into the those that decide to have abnormally huge wings and tails to add onto the huge size). In addition to that, a larger character model means more rendering has to be done, more polygons and larger effects have to be rendered out for that model. This is more processing power required on others, and helps attribute to some with slower machines lags in these fights.

In short, this is not a zero sum gain here, where you being a giant has 0 impact on people just because that's what you believe. Concept always takes a back seat to practicality, and realistically, giant characters have always been a nuisance in this game thanks to them taking up larger system resources due to greater amounts of rendering required for them. This is just now expanded upon because of the nature of raiding.

As an example, remember the people that use to exploit super growing things and could grow well past giant monster size? Remember when they did it your system would freeze momentarily if you come in sight of them for the first time. They are having an impact on resources.

hasukurobi

championshewolf said:

Concept always takes a back seat to practicality, and realistically, giant characters have always been a nuisance in this game thanks to them taking up larger system resources due to greater amounts of rendering required for them. This is just now expanded upon because of the nature of raiding.

Then why not take it to the logical conclusion? Disable all visual FX for both Players and the Monsters aside from the Tells. Set all players to absolute minimum size and lock them there. Disable all travel powers. Disable all environmental effects. Have the fights take place in a room that uses the fewest possible polygons to render and give them a solid texture. That would be very efficient and practical. You could easily simplify the boss attacks to so that now they simply deal damage to a target or deal damage to everyone and leave it at that. Again you would get the Tells but we are not going to waste resources on the actual animations or particles so everyone would be more or less static and we definitely are going to get rid of knock back.



I have noticed this pushing with just two people nowhere NEAR each other during the Cybermind fight when the Firewalls show up. This never used to happen so I am guessing something got accidentally or purposefully changed that messed things up.

avianos

Hey that's not a bad idea, apply an huge AoE Dome around the boss which dissables Auras. See it like a huge Fun Nullifier Device

Also appearence really doesn't matter in cosmics, nobody can see you and neither can you

most of us use /camdist 150 to have full enviromental awareness of the fight and see where we stand

championshewolf wrote: »

As an example, remember the people that use to exploit super growing things and could grow well past giant monster size? Remember when they did it your system would freeze momentarily if you come in sight of them for the first time. They are having an impact on resources.

I will never forget that Giant Wolf who grown so much from this exploit his feet were bigger than Gravitar
and then his model disappeared from the map
He grown into Oblivion while lagging me to death, what a champ

Bottom line, Giant Growth is more harmful for the game's performance than you think as well as obnoxious​​

biffsmackwell

championshewolf said:

more rendering has to be done, more polygons and larger effects have to be rendered out for that model.

Not more polygons, just larger polygons, and I don't think that'll affect any machine very much at all. More polygons aren't added just because a model grows larger. Only way to add polygons to your character is to pile on more and more costume pieces on. Larger effects, though, could be a problem.

At the end of the day, though, how much processing power some character on my screen takes is not at all the issue I'm worried about.

avianos said:

Hey that's not a bad idea, apply an huge AoE Dome around the boss which dissables Auras. See it like a huge Fun Nullifier Device

I would not hate this. When the rain cloud aura came out, some guy thought it would be a good idea to use it in melee range at dino. Might as well play with my eyes closed.

championshewolf

hasukurobi said:

I have noticed this pushing with just two people nowhere NEAR each other during the Cybermind fight when the Firewalls show up. This never used to happen so I am guessing something got accidentally or purposefully changed that messed things up.

To answer this what you are seeing is something else entirely. When objects light up in game, they aren't physically lightning up. The model is usually being swapped out very quickly for a different model. This seems to be the case in most instances in Cybermind as I have noticed moments where the old wall will disappear for a brief second or two before the new one pops in. This usually happens quick enough it isn't a big deal, but in moments of lag from internet connection or server, it can cause a noticeable bit of pushing as the new model is rendered in during a period when client/server communication is disagreeing and one is saying an object is present and the other is saying no it isn't. This technique is also probably happening in the colored floor fight in Cybermind as well. It's fairly common practice to produce these effects.

Other cases they will actually either shrink an object, move it outside of the map or cull it depending on the scenario need it (culling being the it just won't render at all under certain circumstances).

spinnytop

hasukurobi said:

Then why not take it to the logical conclusion? Disable all visual FX for both Players and the Monsters aside from the Tells. Set all players to absolute minimum size and lock them there. Disable all travel powers. Disable all environmental effects. Have the fights take place in a room that uses the fewest possible polygons to render and give them a solid texture. That would be very efficient and practical. You could easily simplify the boss attacks to so that now they simply deal damage to a target or deal damage to everyone and leave it at that. Again you would get the Tells but we are not going to waste resources on the actual animations or particles so everyone would be more or less static and we definitely are going to get rid of knock back.

Yes, taking a reasonable suggestion and then pushing it to its absolute most extreme possible implementation is always a good way to go o3o


...or maybe we just deal with the problem that's being discussed o.o

rtma

Okay, being tired and blunt, instead of going into a tribal debate (for or against), I was just expressing my concern of those that like growth as a personal preference and CO allows certain degree, I'm sure some if not most of us don't intend to lag anyone or abuse it but rather have it as some symbolic gesture, but stripping it away for cosmics you might as well take your Aura's off as well (Or even more drastic, Default costumes? Ew, It's part of the game), their tends to be plenty of FX's from the collective that certain things stop rendering (Like Shadow Embrace), I would like to suggest sizes can maximize for Enrage giant growth and nothing else bigger during the Cosmic fight (Compromise) then these criticisms. (Did I explain myself better to be understood? and with the collision of other's pushing you aside has been frustrating over the months.)

spinnytop

You may grow if you don't have big stupid wings ~3~ so sayeth the princess!

hasukurobi

spinnytop said:

Yes, taking a reasonable suggestion and then pushing it to its absolute most extreme possible implementation is always a good way to go o3o


...or maybe we just deal with the problem that's being discussed o.o

If you really want to be practical then be it. If not then deal with the consequences. I really find half measures to be silly because they just lead to more half measures which lead to more of them until you would end up in this scenario.

I mean: I for one hate Bubbles, Sigils, Wind Powers, Some Fire Powers, and a number of other powers in these fights because they are bright, flashy, obscuring, and the bubbles sometimes make me think I am about to be nuked only to realize they are not THAT bubble. Even if I had the option to just personally turn it all off, which I more or less kind of do, I wouldn't. Why? Because that sort of defeats the purpose. I mean am I playing a Comic Super Hero game here or a Spread Sheet? Boiling things down as hard as you can is certainly WAY more efficient but it gets quickly to a point where if you have decided that the skin of what you are playing is irrelevant than why bother preserving that illusion at all? It is a bit of a logical inconsistency do you not agree?

spinnytop

hasukurobi said:

If you really want to be practical then be it. If not then deal with the consequences. I really find half measures to be silly because they just lead to more half measures which lead to more of them until you would end up in this scenario.

Except the issue being discussed is collision and targeting... it's not a "half measure" if the measure deals only with the stated issue. That's not what that means. You may hate all those flashy effects, but they aren't relevant to the issues being discussed.

hasukurobi said:

I mean am I playing a Comic Super Hero game here or a Spread Sheet? Boiling things down as hard as you can is certainly WAY more efficient but it gets quickly to a point where if you have decided that the skin of what you are playing is irrelevant than why bother preserving that illusion at all? It is a bit of a logical inconsistency do you not agree?

Yes, which is why your "suggestion" was completely ridiculous. If you were trying to make a point, you blew it. Making it so people can't be giant would not be "boiling things down as hard as you can" nor would it be destroying the "illusion"... the thing you said would be tho.

It's like if someone was like "I'm gonna take this sticker off my windshield so I can see better" and you showed up with a sledgehammer like "Well you might as well just get rid of all the windows and the roof!" trying to convince them it's better to just leave the sticker cause you think it looks nice.