I agree, but as I mentioned above, you can still be competitive without bringing build into it. You can still try your best to win without a min/maxed build.
Sure. However, you still can't fault people for building specifically to win in pvp, since the point of pvp is not to make it fair and fun for others - the point is to beat your enemies and win. They're not doing anything morally or ethically wrong, they're not playing the game wrong, and there is really no basis for telling them to do anything differently - after all, they're winning which is the explicit goal.
When you see the idea being passed around that some people need to make themselves less competitive so that less competitive people can have fun, you're witnessing the symptoms of a crippled pvp system. The more you see that idea being seriously promoted as a solution by a broader portion of the population, rather than just the whinings of people who lose a lot, the worse you know things are. If people who win frequently are proposing this idea, then your pvp system is likely at a point where it needs to be scrapped entirely and rebuilt from the ground up.
As for this idea actually being a viable solution... well, it's been tried in CO several times now throughout the years. Each time it was very entertaining to watch the entire effort crash and burn like the hindenburg crashing into the titanic. Main problem: as some people are making themselves less competitive to participate with the idea, others are gleefully slaughtering them. Eventually egos are bruised, feelings get hurt, and things get messy.
I never faulted people for trying to win in PVP via their build; i just pointed out that it poisons the intent behind the game for most people who play it, as it isn't really a superhero experience anymore when people are building just for function.
There isn't anything wrong with people who build to win, infact it is probably just human nature that they have this mentality of "by any means necessary"..But with the nature of the game, and the developers being unlikely to change it, it is only really the players who can bring life back into PVP.
"What if the only character you want to pvp with is already min/maxed, should you not bring it into pvp. For me and many others that means we are never going to join pvp ever again.
As I doubt many with level 40s would roll new ones just for pvp to avoid bringing something that's min/maxed.
Seems to me to b a completely unrealistic request. AT pvp seems more likely."
I never said anyone "should" do anything, i'm just trying to explain that if you like PVP, and you want more of it, you'd be better off not using a build that is made almost exclusively for function.
An unrealistic request it might be, but there aren't really many other options if we want more people pvping..Unless of course the developers decide to fix some of the issues regarding PVP.
Its not about how you win or lose it is how you play the game.
I'm going to have to disagree with this on some level.. Not that people aren't against poor sportsmanshiplike behavior; i certainly think people behaving like that is a detracting factor, however, i would never say it is the main reason people avoid PVP for the simple fact that there are PVP communities that are thriving, and yet at the same time are horrifically toxic.
If unsportsmanlike behavior was the main reason behind people avoiding PVP in CO, why is it there are games that still thrive, with just as much, if not more, toxicity?
Then provide evidence of my ignorance please, mrs. easily-triggered-forum-troll. All I've said are clear, easily verifiable facts that anyone can check for themselves at any given point of time.
Then provide evidence of my ignorance please, mrs. easily-triggered-forum-troll. All I've said are clear, easily verifiable facts that anyone can check for themselves at any given point of time.
Just gonna state those facts for all delusional people here who think good sportsmanship and fairness (the mythical balanced game that humans are never capable of reaching) is what can save pvp:
1.We have MOBA class games, where community is beyond bitter and moronic. 2.Balance there is also non-existent, because heroes with which you can literally do -5 solo nonstop, leading to almost every game being a win, exist. as long as you are smart player of course. 3.And now guess what, all MOBA's ARE SUPER POPULAR.
Now please try to say anything about good sportsmanship and balance being main things that attract pvp'ers again please. Come on, makes us laugh with your ignorance.
There will always be elements of imbalance, the question is : to what degree are these elements imbalanced?
MOBAs may not be balanced perfectly, but there usually isn't grossly disproportionate differences between the heroes to the degree that there is on champions online.
In a MOBA, teamplay and skill is more the defining factor behind winning. Put a bunch new players in a MOBA using the "best" heroes against someone who has been playing for years, and is well practiced, but they are forced to use the "worst" heroes and the newer players will probably lose every time until they're more experienced/knowledgeable themselves. Put a new player in a min/maxed PVP build in champions online against an experienced player who has been playing for years, but is restricted to an AT/Theme build; you'll find build is the defining factor behind winning almost all of the time.
This should clearly display the different degrees to which balance impacts the two games. Although, it does depend if said MOBA allows "counter picking", in which case it is different, and picking heroes becomes a part of the game in itself; however this doesn't translate to champions online as people are restricted by being an AT/Theme, and are unable to build to counter someone's build in this situation without compromising theme, or paying real money.
Perhaps another example would explain it better?
New players versus experienced players in a moba is akin to bringing a different type of gun to a gun fight, but one person knows how to use their gun better than the other, but both guns are roughly equal in their utility.
A new player using min/maxed PVP build versus a theme/AT build in Champions online is like bringing a knife to a gun fight, and it doesn't really matter that much how experienced the players are as the gun is just outright more effective. And although not impossible for the person with the knife to win the exchange, they're undoubtedly at a significant disadvantage, and the odds are heavily stacked against them.
Champions online doesn't need to be perfectly balanced in PVP; ideally it just needs to be balanced enough for skill to be the overall reason people win a PVP exchange. When the player's choice of action during combat becomes the reason they win or lose, you'll know the game is roughly balanced enough.
make a league for pvp on the forums, it can be hosted by a leaders from each participating SG. To keep the rules and what is considered acceptable players in line. Those kicked from the gatherings cant get back in unless the SG leaders vote them back in. Gatherings for said queue events can be posted on the forums or respected guild websites to stay coordinated for times and rules.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
And my point all this time was that it won't help an already dead pvp at all. If you want to "revive" pvp the only way is to give players a motivation to actually play it in an mmo.
Rewards to give players a reason to even try pvp and bugfixes like queue kicking players out from matches and clearly broken stuff like teddy gun/tractor beam is where it all should start. Without those balance means nothing and wont help 0 population pvp here at all.
And yes, I agree that balance here is in much more horrible state than in mobas I've mentioned, but still, it shouldn't be a priority. And don't get me started on toxicity. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter in regards of pvp being popular or not.
Also another point of mine that should be mentioned again is that devs here give 0 fucks about pvp, so nothing of what needs to be done will ever be done.
And my point all this time was that it won't help an already dead pvp at all. If you want to "revive" pvp the only way is to give players a motivation to actually play it in an mmo.
Rewards to give players a reason to even try pvp and bugfixes like queue kicking players out from matches and clearly broken stuff like teddy gun/tractor beam is where it all should start. Without those balance means nothing and wont help 0 population pvp here at all.
And yes, I agree that balance here is in much more horrible state than in mobas I've mentioned, but still, it shouldn't be a priority. And don't get me started on toxicity. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter in regards of pvp being popular or not.
Also another point of mine that should be mentioned again is that devs here give 0 fucks about pvp, so nothing of what needs to be done will ever be done.
You don't need rewards to get people to PVP, there are plenty of pvp games that have no rewards, there are a lot of MOBAs like that actually, and they're arguably one of the most popular PVP genres at the moment from what i've seen. Being fun is enough of a reason to get people into PVP, and i believe it is the things that hinder fun that prevent people from participating consistently..It is also true that fun comes in many forms and can be different person to person.
On the other side, there are plenty of games that offer lots of rewards, and no fun; people do not play those games because the fun is the important part. What is a reward in a game you have no fun with? It is no reward at all.
If balance is the reason most people are avoiding PVP, then the priority should be balance; if the developers did care about PVP that is...But of course this thread was made under the assumption that developers never will work on PVP further, and what the players might be able to do to get more people into PVP despite the lack of developer interest.
make a league for pvp on the forums, it can be hosted by a leaders from each participating SG. To keep the rules and what is considered acceptable players in line. Those kicked from the gatherings cant get back in unless the SG leaders vote them back in. Gatherings for said queue events can be posted on the forums or respected guild websites to stay coordinated for times and rules.
If you did this in hero games, you can rest assured that your nice little event gets bombed by pvpredators. They love new blood... especially the naive idealistic kind.
If this was done through duels, it would likely go as well as the last time we tried this exact idea...nobody can agree on what's acceptable or what the rules should be, the whole thing immediately looks unfair and arbitrary, and in the end the people organizing it decide that it takes too much energy for the zero reward involved.
And my point all this time was that it won't help an already dead pvp at all. If you want to "revive" pvp the only way is to give players a motivation to actually play it in an mmo.
Rewards to give players a reason to even try pvp and bugfixes like queue kicking players out from matches and clearly broken stuff like teddy gun/tractor beam is where it all should start. Without those balance means nothing and wont help 0 population pvp here at all.
And yes, I agree that balance here is in much more horrible state than in mobas I've mentioned, but still, it shouldn't be a priority. And don't get me started on toxicity. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter in regards of pvp being popular or not.
Also another point of mine that should be mentioned again is that devs here give 0 fucks about pvp, so nothing of what needs to be done will ever be done.
PvP used to have rewards, great ones, and while it did make it more popular than it was without rewards, it didn't make it much more popular. At its height pvp was still a tiny fraction of the population because while the rewards drew people in, all the problems people have mentioned regarding balance and poor sportsmanship often drove them right back out in spite of the rewards. Put simply, the history of the game disagrees with what you're trying to push as facts. Rewards are only one part of the puzzle, and it could very rightly be argued that until the other problems are dealt with it's not even worth it to add rewards to try to lure people in since it's fairly likely the the same reasons will once again push most of them right back out, just like they have done in the past.
PS - you say "balance means nothing" while citing balance issues as the reasoning for that statement. Funny joke!
And my point all this time was that it won't help an already dead pvp at all. If you want to "revive" pvp the only way is to give players a motivation to actually play it in an mmo.
Rewards to give players a reason to even try pvp and bugfixes like queue kicking players out from matches and clearly broken stuff like teddy gun/tractor beam is where it all should start. Without those balance means nothing and wont help 0 population pvp here at all.
And yes, I agree that balance here is in much more horrible state than in mobas I've mentioned, but still, it shouldn't be a priority. And don't get me started on toxicity. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter in regards of pvp being popular or not.
Also another point of mine that should be mentioned again is that devs here give 0 fucks about pvp, so nothing of what needs to be done will ever be done.
You don't need rewards to get people to PVP, there are plenty of pvp games that have no rewards, there are a lot of MOBAs like that actually, and they're arguably one of the most popular PVP genres at the moment from what i've seen. Being fun is enough of a reason to get people into PVP, and i believe it is the things that hinder fun that prevent people from participating consistently..It is also true that fun comes in many forms and can be different person to person.
On the other side, there are plenty of games that offer lots of rewards, and no fun; people do not play those games because the fun is the important part. What is a reward in a game you have no fun with? It is no reward at all.
If balance is the reason most people are avoiding PVP, then the priority should be balance; if the developers did care about PVP that is...But of course this thread was made under the assumption that developers never will work on PVP further, and what the players might be able to do to get more people into PVP despite the lack of developer interest.
You've just stated a reason exactly why we DO need better rewards. And that reason is because CO pvp is NOT FUN ENOUGH to attract players. It's boring, repetitive and predictable (besides rng with knocks)
This game's pvp has only 1 viable strategy which is knock (rng roll, which you rinse repeat untill it happens) > burst. That's pretty much the whole depth of strategy in this game. Devs even made it more stupid by virtually removing stealth from this game. Before that was done this simple strategy at least had some counter-play to it.
So, since pvp mechanics in this game is boring and uninteresting, the only way to make it somewhat popular in an mmo is rewards route. That's all.
make a league for pvp on the forums, it can be hosted by a leaders from each participating SG. To keep the rules and what is considered acceptable players in line. Those kicked from the gatherings cant get back in unless the SG leaders vote them back in. Gatherings for said queue events can be posted on the forums or respected guild websites to stay coordinated for times and rules.
If you did this in hero games, you can rest assured that your nice little event gets bombed by pvpredators. They love new blood... especially the naive idealistic kind.
If this was done through duels, it would likely go as well as the last time we tried this exact idea...nobody can agree on what's acceptable or what the rules should be, the whole thing immediately looks unfair and arbitrary, and in the end the people organizing it decide that it takes too much energy for the zero reward involved.
And my point all this time was that it won't help an already dead pvp at all. If you want to "revive" pvp the only way is to give players a motivation to actually play it in an mmo.
Rewards to give players a reason to even try pvp and bugfixes like queue kicking players out from matches and clearly broken stuff like teddy gun/tractor beam is where it all should start. Without those balance means nothing and wont help 0 population pvp here at all.
And yes, I agree that balance here is in much more horrible state than in mobas I've mentioned, but still, it shouldn't be a priority. And don't get me started on toxicity. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter in regards of pvp being popular or not.
Also another point of mine that should be mentioned again is that devs here give 0 fucks about pvp, so nothing of what needs to be done will ever be done.
PvP used to have rewards, great ones, and while it did make it more popular than it was without rewards, it didn't make it much more popular. At its height pvp was still a tiny fraction of the population because while the rewards drew people in, all the problems people have mentioned regarding balance and poor sportsmanship often drove them right back out in spite of the rewards. Put simply, the history of the game disagrees with what you're trying to push as facts. Rewards are only one part of the puzzle, and it could very rightly be argued that until the other problems are dealt with it's not even worth it to add rewards to try to lure people in since it's fairly likely the the same reasons will once again push most of them right back out, just like they have done in the past.
PS - you say "balance means nothing" while citing balance issues as the reasoning for that statement. Funny joke!
Yes, balance means nothing, because once again, CO's pvp is boring and absolutely uninteresting compared to diverse complexity of games like dota, which make them popular based solely on the fact of their complexity. If you make all weapon attacks balanced, there is still only one strategy that would exist in CO, which is knock (or root/stun if you're a masochist or simply bored) > burst.
"What if the only character you want to pvp with is already min/maxed, should you not bring it into pvp. For me and many others that means we are never going to join pvp ever again.
As I doubt many with level 40s would roll new ones just for pvp to avoid bringing something that's min/maxed.
Seems to me to b a completely unrealistic request. AT pvp seems more likely."
I never said anyone "should" do anything, i'm just trying to explain that if you like PVP, and you want more of it, you'd be better off not using a build that is made almost exclusively for function.
An unrealistic request it might be, but there aren't really many other options if we want more people pvping..Unless of course the developers decide to fix some of the issues regarding PVP.
Telling people to roll a new non-min/maxed toon just for pvp is not happening. It would be easier to ask folks just to bring an AT.
"What if the only character you want to pvp with is already min/maxed, should you not bring it into pvp. For me and many others that means we are never going to join pvp ever again.
As I doubt many with level 40s would roll new ones just for pvp to avoid bringing something that's min/maxed.
Seems to me to b a completely unrealistic request. AT pvp seems more likely."
I never said anyone "should" do anything, i'm just trying to explain that if you like PVP, and you want more of it, you'd be better off not using a build that is made almost exclusively for function.
An unrealistic request it might be, but there aren't really many other options if we want more people pvping..Unless of course the developers decide to fix some of the issues regarding PVP.
Telling people to roll a new non-min/maxed toon just for pvp is not happening. It would be easier to ask folks just to bring an AT.
Thats what i did...i respec my FF and leveled up an AT. To accommodate my opponents.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
You've just stated a reason exactly why we DO need better rewards. And that reason is because CO pvp is NOT FUN ENOUGH to attract players. It's boring, repetitive and predictable (besides rng with knocks)
So why in the great blue hell would you want to motivate people to participate in it?!?! Massive flaw right here!
You've just stated a reason exactly why we DO need better rewards. And that reason is because CO pvp is NOT FUN ENOUGH to attract players. It's boring, repetitive and predictable (besides rng with knocks)
So why in the great blue hell would you want to motivate people to participate in it?!?! Massive flaw right here!
Ask Eve that, lol. I don't care really, just giving solutions for the sake of chatting out of boredom myself. For me this game is nothing but character editor at this point.
Note, however, that games with a strong PvP community are often built specifically for that purpose, and are prone to having ladder systems so you mostly face off against people with skill similar to your own. CO isn't built as a PvP game, and even if it had a ladder, doesn't have enough people to make a ladder viable.
Exactly. Pvp remains popular in games based around pvp because those games are focused on pvp...CO is far from being that.
Clearly though none of the pvpheads in this crowd will even consider that changing their behavior might attract more players... it is far too late, they have accepted that acting like jerks to one another is simply part of the game.
"You've just stated a reason exactly why we DO need better rewards. And that reason is because CO pvp is NOT FUN ENOUGH to attract players. It's boring, repetitive and predictable (besides rng with knocks)
This game's pvp has only 1 viable strategy which is knock (rng roll, which you rinse repeat untill it happens) > burst. That's pretty much the whole depth of strategy in this game. Devs even made it more stupid by virtually removing stealth from this game. Before that was done this simple strategy at least had some counter-play to it.
So, since pvp mechanics in this game is boring and uninteresting, the only way to make it somewhat popular in an mmo is rewards route. That's all."
We just established that rewards aren't a reason for people to play a game if the game is not fun itself to begin with.
Also, to say that the "depth of strategy" is knock and burst is a simplification, and overlooks many things.
What should be established is why CO pvp is not fun, and i believe that has already been covered quite thoroughly in this thread.. I disagree that it is the mechanics that are causing boredom, as far as i can tell this game seems to have a lot more mechanics at play than many other games; and yet those games can have popular PVP crowds...Although i suppose more mechanics do not mean "fun" mechanics... So in that regard how fun a person finds the mechanics is completely subjective.
If you're trying to say it is the lack of balance between mechanics that is causing boredom, then i agree with you. But i'm going to argue once again that the reason PVP is unfun for most is because it takes away arguably the strongest part of the game : the ability to customize their character freely..Now it doesn't directly take it away, but indirectly by making it so that to stand any chance, they have take a specific set of powers that are most effective.. .So it forces the choice i mentioned in my original post : ignore PVP and stick with whatever powers suit their theme, but be disadvantaged greatly in PVP, or give up your powers for function in PVP. Most of those who pick theme (who i would argue is the majority of the playerbase), opt to simply avoid PVP .
""Yes, balance means nothing, because once again, CO's pvp is boring and absolutely uninteresting compared to diverse complexity of games like dota, which make them popular based solely on the fact of their complexity. If you make all weapon attacks balanced, there is still only one strategy that would exist in CO, which is knock (or root/stun if you're a masochist or simply bored) ""
Complexity does not equal fun, and i do not think complexity is the reason for MOBA's success; if complexity did equal fun we'd all be solving mathematical equations instead of playing videogames.
Complexity can add depth to a game, but it can also ruin a game; there are people who avoid games like dota because they find them too complicated, and they just want a game they can jump into...Something rival MOBAs seem to have capitalized on by making more streamlined and simplified variations within the genre...I mean, i've heard of games that only have one button that people find fun..
An extreme analogy of how complexity can ruin a game : Imagine one of your favorite games, now imagine that to play it, you also need to play the flute simultaneously. Most would consider that spoiling the game, it'd add a level of complexity that takes away from the core experience.
So i don't think complexity is the reason people may find CO's PVP boring if even games with one button can be found fun and interesting; the issue must lie elsewhere.
Clearly though none of the pvpheads in this crowd will even consider that changing their behavior might attract more players... it is far too late, they have accepted that acting like jerks to one another is simply part of the game.
Well.. that's because it is. I see people being jerks to each other wherever there's pvp. I've also seen popular pvp in games where the majority of the focus of content is on pve, and there too pvpers being jerks. It's unrealistic to expect that sort of thing to stop. Heck, go find a pick up basketball game in some neighborhood... there's a good chance at least one guy there is 'talking mad smack' or that the guy who lost is really salty about it. It's just something people do when the competitive spirit is a-raging.
Also this whole "let's all be nice and cooperate to fix this on the player end!" has been tried repeatedly throughout the years. Kudos to you if you make it work this time.
You're right it is unrealistic to expect suddenly for everyone to be nice to one another but I think you'll find that if more people took it upon themselves to try it out they might find more people willing to play with them.
The thing is a person has to actually be willing to try it out... and then resist the urges to revert back to their schoolyard days the moment someone they're trying to be nice to isn't being nice back.
You're right it is unrealistic to expect suddenly for everyone to be nice to one another but I think you'll find that if more people took it upon themselves to try it out they might find more people willing to play with them.
The thing is a person has to actually be willing to try it out... and then resist the urges to revert back to their schoolyard days the moment someone they're trying to be nice to isn't being nice back.
Yep pretty much impossible I know.
You'd also have to find some way to attract folks who have pvp'd in other games but find CO utterly terrible for pvp. I'm not sure how you could accomplish that.
For the record any amount of folks pvping in this game is pretty okay. You're not going to suddenly get an army of new folks pvping since the focus of development in this game and endgame is pve.
Although i suppose more mechanics do not mean "fun" mechanics... So in that regard how fun a person finds the mechanics is completely subjective.
By increasing amount of mechanics and strategies you are already increasing amount of people that theoretically may find them fun since this world contains people with unlimited amount of preference combinations. I highly doubt they'll start giving us new mechanics, so once again, the only way I see attracting new players to pvp is rewards route. Honestly, even if you'll make all powers balanced in CO it still won't make people return and try pvp here because it would still be a boring, simple and predictable gameplay.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
You can report whatever you want, but most won't get responses. Much of the time when someone gets singled out in PvP it's because they're easy to kill. That's playing as designed and isn't a violation, so it won't get a response. Going after someone with malice can rise to the level of harassment.
Going after someone with malice can rise to the level of harassment.
Eh... so are people supposed to go after each other with love and friendship? It's kind of ridiculous to imply that someone could be reported for attacking another player in pvp. It's free for all, anyone is allowed to attack anyone else for whatever reason they like. If that wasn't the intent then they would have put some mechanism in place to prevent or discourage it, or at the very least put some sort of clear message out there that this specific activity was against the rules, like in mmos with open world pvp where they decided they didn't want high level players camping low level zones and ganking newbies.
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to tell you, they were going after me with malice. I don't care if they kill me because I'm easy to kill.
Eh, but weren't you saying the problem was them being "verbally abusive"? Now you're saying the problem is that they attacked you "with malice"? Seriously, what are they supposed to attack you with... hugs and pony farts? Also how can you tell they weren't going after you because they thought you were easy? They certainly typed "ez" a lot after killing you, so the evidence points in that direction. After all, running away a lot and drawing things out doesn't make you a difficult target.
If you ever find yourself thinking you should report people for engaging you in combat in pvp, you should probably consider the possibility that you aren't emotionally capable of participating in pvp. Especially not a free for all environment ( especially if you're the type of person who taunts people, and is then surprised when they come after you, and then tries to act emotionally wounded that they did so ).
Anyone reading your posts might also want to consider the possibility that the people you're referring to aren't the trolls in this situation
^ generally something said by unlikable people. I prefer being nice to people, cause it just feels better.
It is obviously impossible to be liked by everyone, because, once mentioned before, preference combinations in people greatly vary, hence it's not worth even trying to do that.
Going after someone with malice can rise to the level of harassment.
Eh... so are people supposed to go after each other with love and friendship?
Most PvP games have a quite high threshold for what it takes to qualify as harassment (and I strongly doubt pandoraslockbox approaches that threshold), but it can happen.
You know what I'm talking about, "spinnytop" :P However, if what you say is true, then I can farm people fighting bosses as an OV :P What you're doing is like blaming a rape victim for getting raped.
Hey, Eve, solving mathematical equations is fun! :P So is PvP. I don't know why you guys think the mechanics of PvP aren't interesting... I've had some fun times playing PvP.
Well no you can't do that, because they put mechanisms in place to prevent it or at least make it much much more difficult, which sends a clear message that you shouldn't be doing that
There's a big difference between killing people because they're easy to kill and antagonizing players.
Yes there is. The main problem here is that you seem unable to tell them apart, and don't seem to be able to stick to one of them as the thing you're complaining about and the thing you think people can be reported for.
Even with "antagonizing" there's a line that determines what's acceptable. Face it, in pvp people will antagonize you to try to psyche you out. Someone will call you a noob, call your build garbage, ridicule you for past losses, or any number of things to get you emotional and in a mindset where you're more likely to make a mistake. If you can't handle that, close your chat window, because as far as reportable behavior goes that's not it.
Of course you're not reporting anybody because you know you're in the wrong. Big words, no action.
Yes, I can attack people as an OV... I get plenty of kills that way. But I heard you can get in trouble for doing that.
I'm not talking about game-related things like calling me a noob or calling my build garbage or trash talk. I think we all have a clear idea what harassment is and I don't feel a need to define it further.
I think the rest of us do. I don't think you do though.
Sort of hypocritical for you to be crying about people attacking you in bash while you're admitting to doing something that has been officially defined as griefing.
The pacing, movement, and mechanics were almost slick but the final numbers in both offense and defense just didn't add up. That's what we're probably the most sad about; the game just felt really good, fluid, and for the most part, almost like an action game more than an MMO. That really gave it the impression that skill could really be part of making the plays but in the end it was full of potential but the math was just comical.
For awhile though it was truly, very fun and it does always make me smile that someone enjoys it enough to try and make it come back.
I would suggest a tournament to help control balance. Now its not going to be absolute balance but at the very least it gives players some freedom to control the rules as well as the autonomy to agree or disagree with them before stepping foot into the ring. You will not be able to please everyone but you can certainly make it very fun for a small group of people and it certainly beats waiting for that PvP-balance pass anyways.
Don't try to push for mass-appeal PvP that was never there in the first place. I don't think people were necessarily driven away from PvP as much as it is the case that CO as a whole is much smaller now which by proportion makes Queues not as likely to pop.
Its like being a salesperson in a store for an obscure item you rarely stock; your skill in making a sale isn't as big of a factor as your employer's ability to bring in foot traffic to start with and really that's not your fault. Thus it is absurd to blame the players.
I'd resub if Cryptic took any of this to heart and actually cared about fixing the PvP in this game. Until then... I'll at least check in on the forums once in a while to see if it ever gets better.
I'd resub if Cryptic took any of this to heart and actually cared about fixing the PvP in this game. Until then... I'll at least check in on the forums once in a while to see if it ever gets better.
Well, what you wanna look for is them being done dealing with the core issues that effect everything in the game, including pvp. So like, once they've reviewed all the power sets and reviewed specializations - I don't see them even thinking about hero games until all that stuff is done. So really until then you can just do whatever and not worry about it.
Comments
There isn't anything wrong with people who build to win, infact it is probably just human nature that they have this mentality of "by any means necessary"..But with the nature of the game, and the developers being unlikely to change it, it is only really the players who can bring life back into PVP.
As I doubt many with level 40s would roll new ones just for pvp to avoid bringing something that's min/maxed.
Seems to me to b a completely unrealistic request. AT pvp seems more likely."
I never said anyone "should" do anything, i'm just trying to explain that if you like PVP, and you want more of it, you'd be better off not using a build that is made almost exclusively for function.
An unrealistic request it might be, but there aren't really many other options if we want more people pvping..Unless of course the developers decide to fix some of the issues regarding PVP.
If unsportsmanlike behavior was the main reason behind people avoiding PVP in CO, why is it there are games that still thrive, with just as much, if not more, toxicity?
All I've said are clear, easily verifiable facts that anyone can check for themselves at any given point of time.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
MOBAs may not be balanced perfectly, but there usually isn't grossly disproportionate differences between the heroes to the degree that there is on champions online.
In a MOBA, teamplay and skill is more the defining factor behind winning. Put a bunch new players in a MOBA using the "best" heroes against someone who has been playing for years, and is well practiced, but they are forced to use the "worst" heroes and the newer players will probably lose every time until they're more experienced/knowledgeable themselves. Put a new player in a min/maxed PVP build in champions online against an experienced player who has been playing for years, but is restricted to an AT/Theme build; you'll find build is the defining factor behind winning almost all of the time.
This should clearly display the different degrees to which balance impacts the two games. Although, it does depend if said MOBA allows "counter picking", in which case it is different, and picking heroes becomes a part of the game in itself; however this doesn't translate to champions online as people are restricted by being an AT/Theme, and are unable to build to counter someone's build in this situation without compromising theme, or paying real money.
Perhaps another example would explain it better?
New players versus experienced players in a moba is akin to bringing a different type of gun to a gun fight, but one person knows how to use their gun better than the other, but both guns are roughly equal in their utility.
A new player using min/maxed PVP build versus a theme/AT build in Champions online is like bringing a knife to a gun fight, and it doesn't really matter that much how experienced the players are as the gun is just outright more effective. And although not impossible for the person with the knife to win the exchange, they're undoubtedly at a significant disadvantage, and the odds are heavily stacked against them.
Champions online doesn't need to be perfectly balanced in PVP; ideally it just needs to be balanced enough for skill to be the overall reason people win a PVP exchange. When the player's choice of action during combat becomes the reason they win or lose, you'll know the game is roughly balanced enough.
make a league for pvp on the forums, it can be hosted by a leaders from each participating SG. To keep the rules and what is considered acceptable players in line. Those kicked from the gatherings cant get back in unless the SG leaders vote them back in. Gatherings for said queue events can be posted on the forums or respected guild websites to stay coordinated for times and rules.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
Rewards to give players a reason to even try pvp and bugfixes like queue kicking players out from matches and clearly broken stuff like teddy gun/tractor beam is where it all should start. Without those balance means nothing and wont help 0 population pvp here at all.
And yes, I agree that balance here is in much more horrible state than in mobas I've mentioned, but still, it shouldn't be a priority. And don't get me started on toxicity. It ABSOLUTELY doesn't matter in regards of pvp being popular or not.
Also another point of mine that should be mentioned again is that devs here give 0 fucks about pvp, so nothing of what needs to be done will ever be done.
On the other side, there are plenty of games that offer lots of rewards, and no fun; people do not play those games because the fun is the important part. What is a reward in a game you have no fun with? It is no reward at all.
If balance is the reason most people are avoiding PVP, then the priority should be balance; if the developers did care about PVP that is...But of course this thread was made under the assumption that developers never will work on PVP further, and what the players might be able to do to get more people into PVP despite the lack of developer interest.
If this was done through duels, it would likely go as well as the last time we tried this exact idea...nobody can agree on what's acceptable or what the rules should be, the whole thing immediately looks unfair and arbitrary, and in the end the people organizing it decide that it takes too much energy for the zero reward involved. PvP used to have rewards, great ones, and while it did make it more popular than it was without rewards, it didn't make it much more popular. At its height pvp was still a tiny fraction of the population because while the rewards drew people in, all the problems people have mentioned regarding balance and poor sportsmanship often drove them right back out in spite of the rewards. Put simply, the history of the game disagrees with what you're trying to push as facts. Rewards are only one part of the puzzle, and it could very rightly be argued that until the other problems are dealt with it's not even worth it to add rewards to try to lure people in since it's fairly likely the the same reasons will once again push most of them right back out, just like they have done in the past.
PS - you say "balance means nothing" while citing balance issues as the reasoning for that statement. Funny joke!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This game's pvp has only 1 viable strategy which is knock (rng roll, which you rinse repeat untill it happens) > burst. That's pretty much the whole depth of strategy in this game. Devs even made it more stupid by virtually removing stealth from this game. Before that was done this simple strategy at least had some counter-play to it.
So, since pvp mechanics in this game is boring and uninteresting, the only way to make it somewhat popular in an mmo is rewards route. That's all.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It may happen actually.. It really depends on what people decide to do.
Clearly though none of the pvpheads in this crowd will even consider that changing their behavior might attract more players... it is far too late, they have accepted that acting like jerks to one another is simply part of the game.
This game's pvp has only 1 viable strategy which is knock (rng roll, which you rinse repeat untill it happens) > burst. That's pretty much the whole depth of strategy in this game. Devs even made it more stupid by virtually removing stealth from this game. Before that was done this simple strategy at least had some counter-play to it.
So, since pvp mechanics in this game is boring and uninteresting, the only way to make it somewhat popular in an mmo is rewards route. That's all."
We just established that rewards aren't a reason for people to play a game if the game is not fun itself to begin with.
Also, to say that the "depth of strategy" is knock and burst is a simplification, and overlooks many things.
What should be established is why CO pvp is not fun, and i believe that has already been covered quite thoroughly in this thread.. I disagree that it is the mechanics that are causing boredom, as far as i can tell this game seems to have a lot more mechanics at play than many other games; and yet those games can have popular PVP crowds...Although i suppose more mechanics do not mean "fun" mechanics... So in that regard how fun a person finds the mechanics is completely subjective.
If you're trying to say it is the lack of balance between mechanics that is causing boredom, then i agree with you. But i'm going to argue once again that the reason PVP is unfun for most is because it takes away arguably the strongest part of the game : the ability to customize their character freely..Now it doesn't directly take it away, but indirectly by making it so that to stand any chance, they have take a specific set of powers that are most effective.. .So it forces the choice i mentioned in my original post : ignore PVP and stick with whatever powers suit their theme, but be disadvantaged greatly in PVP, or give up your powers for function in PVP. Most of those who pick theme (who i would argue is the majority of the playerbase), opt to simply avoid PVP .
It all comes back to balance..
Complexity does not equal fun, and i do not think complexity is the reason for MOBA's success; if complexity did equal fun we'd all be solving mathematical equations instead of playing videogames.
Complexity can add depth to a game, but it can also ruin a game; there are people who avoid games like dota because they find them too complicated, and they just want a game they can jump into...Something rival MOBAs seem to have capitalized on by making more streamlined and simplified variations within the genre...I mean, i've heard of games that only have one button that people find fun..
An extreme analogy of how complexity can ruin a game : Imagine one of your favorite games, now imagine that to play it, you also need to play the flute simultaneously. Most would consider that spoiling the game, it'd add a level of complexity that takes away from the core experience.
So i don't think complexity is the reason people may find CO's PVP boring if even games with one button can be found fun and interesting; the issue must lie elsewhere.
Also this whole "let's all be nice and cooperate to fix this on the player end!" has been tried repeatedly throughout the years. Kudos to you if you make it work this time.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The thing is a person has to actually be willing to try it out... and then resist the urges to revert back to their schoolyard days the moment someone they're trying to be nice to isn't being nice back.
Yep pretty much impossible I know.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
For the record any amount of folks pvping in this game is pretty okay. You're not going to suddenly get an army of new folks pvping since the focus of development in this game and endgame is pve.
I highly doubt they'll start giving us new mechanics, so once again, the only way I see attracting new players to pvp is rewards route. Honestly, even if you'll make all powers balanced in CO it still won't make people return and try pvp here because it would still be a boring, simple and predictable gameplay. Humans in their majority don't deserve it.
I couldnt help but think of this everytime someone quoted him:
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Eh, but weren't you saying the problem was them being "verbally abusive"? Now you're saying the problem is that they attacked you "with malice"? Seriously, what are they supposed to attack you with... hugs and pony farts? Also how can you tell they weren't going after you because they thought you were easy? They certainly typed "ez" a lot after killing you, so the evidence points in that direction. After all, running away a lot and drawing things out doesn't make you a difficult target.
If you ever find yourself thinking you should report people for engaging you in combat in pvp, you should probably consider the possibility that you aren't emotionally capable of participating in pvp. Especially not a free for all environment ( especially if you're the type of person who taunts people, and is then surprised when they come after you, and then tries to act emotionally wounded that they did so ).
Anyone reading your posts might also want to consider the possibility that the people you're referring to aren't the trolls in this situation
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Yes there is. The main problem here is that you seem unable to tell them apart, and don't seem to be able to stick to one of them as the thing you're complaining about and the thing you think people can be reported for.
Even with "antagonizing" there's a line that determines what's acceptable. Face it, in pvp people will antagonize you to try to psyche you out. Someone will call you a noob, call your build garbage, ridicule you for past losses, or any number of things to get you emotional and in a mindset where you're more likely to make a mistake. If you can't handle that, close your chat window, because as far as reportable behavior goes that's not it.
Of course you're not reporting anybody because you know you're in the wrong. Big words, no action.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sort of hypocritical for you to be crying about people attacking you in bash while you're admitting to doing something that has been officially defined as griefing.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
For awhile though it was truly, very fun and it does always make me smile that someone enjoys it enough to try and make it come back.
I would suggest a tournament to help control balance. Now its not going to be absolute balance but at the very least it gives players some freedom to control the rules as well as the autonomy to agree or disagree with them before stepping foot into the ring. You will not be able to please everyone but you can certainly make it very fun for a small group of people and it certainly beats waiting for that PvP-balance pass anyways.
Don't try to push for mass-appeal PvP that was never there in the first place. I don't think people were necessarily driven away from PvP as much as it is the case that CO as a whole is much smaller now which by proportion makes Queues not as likely to pop.
Its like being a salesperson in a store for an obscure item you rarely stock; your skill in making a sale isn't as big of a factor as your employer's ability to bring in foot traffic to start with and really that's not your fault. Thus it is absurd to blame the players.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.