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Why PVP died, and how to bring it back.
eva1988
Posts: 183 Arc User
I just think it is important to cover this for any of those who actually enjoy participating in PVP; so that maybe we can somehow resurrect it without making the same mistakes..I say this because earlier today we had quite a few herogames going, and i'd rather they stayed around since they're one of my favorite parts of the game.
What I think killed PVP
I think we can all agree most of the playerbase began to avoid PVP when they realized balance was non-existent. I'm also going to say this is the main reason it died. But it isn't specifically because the powers were not balanced, but what people chose to do in PVP when no power balance was present.
Another reason i'm quite confident this is the reason.. .Well, i've asked a lot of people why they do not participate in PVP, and it always seems to boil down to the lack of balance.
The majority of people simply do not like competing against min/maxed PVP builds.
Who is to blame?
First and foremost, Cryptic is to blame as they directly create and change the way the powers and devices work, and thus impact the balance of directly. They've seemingly long since abandoned any attempts at balance as far as i can tell.... Secondly, to a much lesser extent; the next to blame (i'm not sure "blame" is the right word)would of course be the players; because of what they chose to do with the lack of balance, they chose to see how much they could break the scales. Which isn't surprising, people were playing to compete, so of course they'd go down this road; it is a very natural choice to make, and it is to be expected that people would make it.
Why do people find the lack of balance to be a problem?
If people need only switch their build to the best powers, what is the problem? Their ability to compete is only a retcon away. So if they can so easily have the best powers, and compete effectively in PVP, why don't they do it? Why do they instead outright avoid PVP?
I would put this down to a few reasons :
-They're an AT, and so don't have the freedom to take the most effective powers
-They just don't like PVP in general for whatever reason.
-They'd have to compromise the theme of their character.
-They'd have to compromise their effectiveness in PVE
If i had to pick the one i thought was the most prevalent reason, i'd say it is the one regarding theme... You see, people who come to play the game probably come here for a superhero experience... To point out the slogan "be the hero you want to be"...But as most of you probably know by now, if you enter PVP with theme as your priority.. Well, to put it mildly, you're likely not going to do very well. And if they alter their build to put function first? Well, their character is no longer the hero they wanted them to be, but instead likely a random mess of inconsistent powers, and devices.
So they're presented a choice, be the hero they want to be, and be ineffective in PVP; or let theme cave in to function, and be effective in PVP.
It is also important for clarity's sake that i specify i'm talking about people who put theme before all else, as i know there are people who use PVP builds and say they're in theme. These people obviously put function before all else, and perhaps hold theme in a secondary status. Unless of course the planets aligned, and their theme coincidently aligns with all of the most effective powers and devices; a very unlikely scenario, but certainly not impossible.
Oh, and just incase somebody says it.. If your theme is "to be the most effective in PVP" you're still putting function first, you're merely doing it indirectly, and your intentions are very clear.
Anyway!
What can be done to resurrect PVP?
Aside from Cryptic balancing the game? The responsibility falls to the players; and the players have a lot of power collectively in making PVP more accessible to other players who would otherwise avoid it. I would say if you want more PVP : Don't make function the top priority behind your build.
I would also say stop caring about winning in PVP, as the game has no balance; you really have nothing to lose. There are so many people i talk to who say they don't want to use a PVP build, but they've got no choice because everyone else is using one.. Don't worry about competing, the PVP is just a bit of fun; the only thing you gain from being so "tryhard" is the majority of people not wanting to play in PVP with you; and if you want more PVP, that is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.
Please understand; i'm not saying there is something wrong with min/maxed builds, or people who use them; i'm simply saying that for most, they just don't want to play against them, they don't find it fun, or fair.. And if i'm honest, for me personally, i'd prefer if people didn't use them either, as it really is a variety killer, and i'm very tired of seeing the same powers and devices over and over.
----
One other thing i find what seems to be an encouraging factor behind people using PVP builds.. They seem to equate their build effectiveness, with their growth as a player. So lets say you've got someone who just started playing, and they read up a build on the forums, and now they're defeating the majority of people in PVP; they'll say that they're now a good player; when in actual fact they've simply made the game easier for themselves by making a more efficient tool, but their skill level in PVP as a player remains near unchanged; and despite what people may say, there is certainly skill involved in PVP (there is also a lot of luck too in terms of critical hits etc... But now i'm getting off topic).
Now on most other games, most would equate someone making a game easier for themselves as a worse player, yet for some reason on champions online, a lot of people who use these particular types of build think the opposite.
If people instead thought of those who used the worse builds in PVP as better players, it'd create a much more accessible environment i think. Afterall, it is harder to compete in PVP with a terrible build than it is with a min/maxed build. So why then is it those that take the path of least resistance believe they're good at the game? In actuality making the game easier for yourself implies the complete opposite.
If people thought of using worse builds as a sign of improvement, people would build down as they got better at the game, instead of up; and in turn more people would find PVP accessible...Although i'm not too confident in my ability to change the mentality of the PVP community, and so this will likely never happen; afterall, it is much easier to just make an effective build, and then pretend you're a good player than it is to limit yourself and increase the challenge.
What I think killed PVP
I think we can all agree most of the playerbase began to avoid PVP when they realized balance was non-existent. I'm also going to say this is the main reason it died. But it isn't specifically because the powers were not balanced, but what people chose to do in PVP when no power balance was present.
Another reason i'm quite confident this is the reason.. .Well, i've asked a lot of people why they do not participate in PVP, and it always seems to boil down to the lack of balance.
The majority of people simply do not like competing against min/maxed PVP builds.
Who is to blame?
First and foremost, Cryptic is to blame as they directly create and change the way the powers and devices work, and thus impact the balance of directly. They've seemingly long since abandoned any attempts at balance as far as i can tell.... Secondly, to a much lesser extent; the next to blame (i'm not sure "blame" is the right word)would of course be the players; because of what they chose to do with the lack of balance, they chose to see how much they could break the scales. Which isn't surprising, people were playing to compete, so of course they'd go down this road; it is a very natural choice to make, and it is to be expected that people would make it.
Why do people find the lack of balance to be a problem?
If people need only switch their build to the best powers, what is the problem? Their ability to compete is only a retcon away. So if they can so easily have the best powers, and compete effectively in PVP, why don't they do it? Why do they instead outright avoid PVP?
I would put this down to a few reasons :
-They're an AT, and so don't have the freedom to take the most effective powers
-They just don't like PVP in general for whatever reason.
-They'd have to compromise the theme of their character.
-They'd have to compromise their effectiveness in PVE
If i had to pick the one i thought was the most prevalent reason, i'd say it is the one regarding theme... You see, people who come to play the game probably come here for a superhero experience... To point out the slogan "be the hero you want to be"...But as most of you probably know by now, if you enter PVP with theme as your priority.. Well, to put it mildly, you're likely not going to do very well. And if they alter their build to put function first? Well, their character is no longer the hero they wanted them to be, but instead likely a random mess of inconsistent powers, and devices.
So they're presented a choice, be the hero they want to be, and be ineffective in PVP; or let theme cave in to function, and be effective in PVP.
It is also important for clarity's sake that i specify i'm talking about people who put theme before all else, as i know there are people who use PVP builds and say they're in theme. These people obviously put function before all else, and perhaps hold theme in a secondary status. Unless of course the planets aligned, and their theme coincidently aligns with all of the most effective powers and devices; a very unlikely scenario, but certainly not impossible.
Oh, and just incase somebody says it.. If your theme is "to be the most effective in PVP" you're still putting function first, you're merely doing it indirectly, and your intentions are very clear.
Anyway!
What can be done to resurrect PVP?
Aside from Cryptic balancing the game? The responsibility falls to the players; and the players have a lot of power collectively in making PVP more accessible to other players who would otherwise avoid it. I would say if you want more PVP : Don't make function the top priority behind your build.
I would also say stop caring about winning in PVP, as the game has no balance; you really have nothing to lose. There are so many people i talk to who say they don't want to use a PVP build, but they've got no choice because everyone else is using one.. Don't worry about competing, the PVP is just a bit of fun; the only thing you gain from being so "tryhard" is the majority of people not wanting to play in PVP with you; and if you want more PVP, that is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.
Please understand; i'm not saying there is something wrong with min/maxed builds, or people who use them; i'm simply saying that for most, they just don't want to play against them, they don't find it fun, or fair.. And if i'm honest, for me personally, i'd prefer if people didn't use them either, as it really is a variety killer, and i'm very tired of seeing the same powers and devices over and over.
----
One other thing i find what seems to be an encouraging factor behind people using PVP builds.. They seem to equate their build effectiveness, with their growth as a player. So lets say you've got someone who just started playing, and they read up a build on the forums, and now they're defeating the majority of people in PVP; they'll say that they're now a good player; when in actual fact they've simply made the game easier for themselves by making a more efficient tool, but their skill level in PVP as a player remains near unchanged; and despite what people may say, there is certainly skill involved in PVP (there is also a lot of luck too in terms of critical hits etc... But now i'm getting off topic).
Now on most other games, most would equate someone making a game easier for themselves as a worse player, yet for some reason on champions online, a lot of people who use these particular types of build think the opposite.
If people instead thought of those who used the worse builds in PVP as better players, it'd create a much more accessible environment i think. Afterall, it is harder to compete in PVP with a terrible build than it is with a min/maxed build. So why then is it those that take the path of least resistance believe they're good at the game? In actuality making the game easier for yourself implies the complete opposite.
If people thought of using worse builds as a sign of improvement, people would build down as they got better at the game, instead of up; and in turn more people would find PVP accessible...Although i'm not too confident in my ability to change the mentality of the PVP community, and so this will likely never happen; afterall, it is much easier to just make an effective build, and then pretend you're a good player than it is to limit yourself and increase the challenge.
Post edited by eva1988 on
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After work, cooking and taking care of the kid, the last thing I want is more stress in the form of my main form of entertainment.
On the occasion (rare nowadays) where I do want to compete against others, I have better games focused on that in the form of Street Fighter V, Marvel vs Capcom 3, Blazblue, Guilty Gear and others.
In my 20 years of trying out MMO pvp, it always ends up being a toxic waste dump of an experience.
I was just pointing out ONE factor.
The OP brings up a good point about that.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
The solution would be to have a build tab, one for PVP, and one for everything else. Then I would consider it. But I'm broke anymore, I can't afford to switch builds back and forth, like ever, so I have to use the freebie rerolls when stuff gets changed, and stay to that.
1 - Building for PvP is boring. Painfully so. There is simply so many more options when building for PvE, and so much more freedom in adhering to a theme. PvP in this game has some pretty demanding "unspoken rules" when it comes to what's useful and what's garbage. I remember at one point I got really into making effective pvp builds... that lasted for about two weeks, and then I was so bored with it that I stopped playing for a few months. That's how hard pvp can suck the fun out of the game for people who like to make fun interesting builds.
2 - It's just a never-ending cycle of exploitative behavior. What really puts a lens on this is the grand spectacle that is the "teleport battle" where players teleport constantly and the only way it ends is when someone decides to be the first to die by staying visible and letting themselves be attacked. Another is the less grand spectacle that is "pvp tanks" who basically make the rule "If you're a squishy, don't bother cause I can kill you before you can even make a dent". There's many many more examples, and the overall issue is that you end up just chasing the meta to a degree that is more intense than any pvp in any other game I have ever played.
3 - BASH. Free for all pvp in a tab target game is a bad idea... and BASH makes a glorious spectacle of why that is. The fact that BASH for a long time was the only pvp que that popped basically formed what pvp in this game is, and pretty much all of it's influence was negative.
4 - Power imbalance. I got to see this first hand many times. I would que for ZA, I would be on the zombie team by myself, and a minute after the match started all the survivors were dead at my hands and the game was over. Some players being a bit stronger than others is common in pvp... but rarely to the degree that we see in our game. The common complaint here is from the side of the less powerful, but it can be a real drag for the person at the other end as well - some people like to feel like they're overpowered and stomping targets who could never pose a threat, but there are many pvpers who actually pvp because they're seeking a real fight.
For me these four things were what eventually made me decide that there was very little fun to be had in pvp, and from the few times I poke my head in it looks like almost nothing has changed. Personally I don't think pvp in CO can be fixed - the things that make the game great in pve are in fact toxic to the pvp game, and it would be a huge mistake to threaten the former for the benefit of the latter. My observation is that it's fine for pvp to stay what it is - a tiny addon to the game that's there for those who want it, that doesn't attempt to draw anyone in with unique prizes ( other than gear that has stats that only work in pvp ).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
2. Its not only lack of balance, laughable junk rewards for PvP are also a huge problem. Why do you think people do PvE so much? Its because they get awesome costumes, stat gear and devices there. Remove all useful stuff from PvE and it also will get ignored by people. Proof - guess how many people did Onslaught PvP? Answer- almost everyone, because it had good gear back then.
3. Everyone has realized long ago that CO devs don't want or are incapable of fixing PvP (personally I think both) , so you waking up with your suggestions only now is quite amusing. Trust me, I tried to bother them about PvP long before you, they gave 0 fucks and they will do so again.
4. Balance even is not the main problem with powers, it's broken and bugged stuff like teddy gun that can 1 shot an invulnerable 999999 hp developer if you spam that on them for 50 seconds or tractor beam that still ignores knock resistance... Anyway, I made a huge fkn list of all abuses and bugs in this game, guess what, devs didn't bother to fix any of that. So ye, rly, just come play dota 2 with me or something xD, don't waste your time on CO if you want fun and competitive PvP.
I agree that the rewards are also a reason that people avoid PVP. Although to be honest, people who would PVP just for rewards probably aren't PVPing for PVP's sake.
I'm not sure i'd equate diversity to more difficulty in regards to balance, but i'd consider saying it'd probably be more work. Balance does not mean all powers will end up the same by any means, but their function will roughly be equal in terms of their benefit granted, how they measure that is up to the developers. Examples of games with a lot of diversity that are often somewhat balanced would be something like a MOBA...In a MOBA their approach seems to be "make everything way too strong, and it is all balanced".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I still have a couple ATs if anyone wants to start a PvP league.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
1. the Hero Games queue kicking people without being fixed basically reduced all pvp down to dueling
2. complete lack of rewards, which used to be there...got removed with a promise of being reworked and added back in...but that "they'll be back" bit didn't happen
3. and yes lack of balance....though I would put this below the above two points because there have been periods of better power balance with no change in population and also periods with much much worse balance also with no change in population
It's not coming back without points 1 and 2 changing no matter how balanced things get.
Personally, I stopped PvPing because it turned into dueling which lacked the depth of team matches. Most duelists also had a ready checklist of excuses to run through for when they lost..."lag" "my mom" "im pve" "my theme" etc and it made winning a lot less satisfying. Hero games had its whiners as well but was tolerable because it was more fun.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
However, I highly doubt that would be the case if I did queue, so I think my time is better spent earning Questionite to supplement my monthly Zen stipend.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
One thing I've learned is that the desire to win is very thoroughly ingrained in these type of people, I daresay to the point that some of them are actually afraid of losing. But it is a mindset that is like a poison to a game like this, where being competitive can't really be facilitated without ruining the intention behind the game, a superhero experience.
I've always wanted people to realize that they can be competitive without bringing their build into it; you can still play to win without forsaking all semblance of theme.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
=X.X=
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
The lack of rewards, and pvp haters do not help at all with the improvement of the pvp system. You don't see pvpers jumping on forums post each time a new "Furry" request is done. However, you can see how people who do not like pvp always express their unsatisfaction... Like if anyone cares.
You can do whatever you like, that you don't, just ignore it. But nahh, let's talk against pvp ‘cuz all this game can be is just a “Furry Simulator”. Lol.
I said that until this game gets a release note with some PVP improvement I won't come and that was actually a good thing since I have been playing way better options. Even when I do still like this game for being the most Comic Based game. The lack of support from developers and furry criers just make it a limited experience. But hey! You might say that I'm just “One” Explayer less who talked about it, just don't forget how many others quietly left, those are leaving and those who will leave because of the lack of options to enjoy this game. Statics don’t lie and Square Enix + Marvel might be just the last nail on the coffin.
So, keep going that way, satisfy your 200 furriers payer base and keep mistreating those who likes pvp. At the end of the day, when it comes to players, is all about choices. You can keep playing this game hoping that someday it will get something for you as a “Pvper”. Or you can just let it be and leave, just like I did. Just waste of “What It could be”.
Have fun kiddos. And use your of Weapon of Choice.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And again no one has a right to be verbally abusive. You can report them for that. Not the pvp aspect.
Ooooooooooooohkay then.
Address the real issues at hand, like how queues still need to be fixed. Stop attacking and blaming boogeymen for your PVP problems. Doing that instead of being constructive about it just makes people laugh, shake their head and look the other way.
^our call to arms brothers! (epic voice)
EDIT: and if you quit just because i have kitty ears, then your not wanting it to succeed anyways!
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
As I doubt many with level 40s would roll new ones just for pvp to avoid bringing something that's min/maxed.
Seems to me to b a completely unrealistic request. AT pvp seems more likely.
Sure. However, you still can't fault people for building specifically to win in pvp, since the point of pvp is not to make it fair and fun for others - the point is to beat your enemies and win. They're not doing anything morally or ethically wrong, they're not playing the game wrong, and there is really no basis for telling them to do anything differently - after all, they're winning which is the explicit goal.
When you see the idea being passed around that some people need to make themselves less competitive so that less competitive people can have fun, you're witnessing the symptoms of a crippled pvp system. The more you see that idea being seriously promoted as a solution by a broader portion of the population, rather than just the whinings of people who lose a lot, the worse you know things are. If people who win frequently are proposing this idea, then your pvp system is likely at a point where it needs to be scrapped entirely and rebuilt from the ground up.
As for this idea actually being a viable solution... well, it's been tried in CO several times now throughout the years. Each time it was very entertaining to watch the entire effort crash and burn like the hindenburg crashing into the titanic. Main problem: as some people are making themselves less competitive to participate with the idea, others are gleefully slaughtering them. Eventually egos are bruised, feelings get hurt, and things get messy.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Also they need to fix the bugs affecting herogames, that would be super as well.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
1.We have MOBA class games, where community is beyond bitter and moronic.
2.Balance there is also non-existent, because heroes with which you can literally do -5 solo nonstop, leading to almost every game being a win, exist. as long as you are smart player of course.
3.And now guess what, all MOBA's ARE SUPER POPULAR.
Now please try to say anything about good sportsmanship and balance being main things that attract pvp'ers again please. Come on, makes us laugh with your ignorance.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.