Comparing ultimates

eva1988

I just wanted to make this thread because after looking over some of the ultimates, i feel like some of them really underperform, and others really overperform. Also, seeing as i haven't tried every ultimate for myself, i'll be leaving some out.

Ultimates i think are roughly okay

Gravity driver

One of the few ultimates i think is actually perfect for the framework, i have no problems with this ultimate, and i think it sets a good standard for other ultimates. I would put it roughly in the middle, it isn't too strong, and isn't too weak.

Energy storm

Another ultimate that i think is balanced quite well, not too strong, not too weak when you take into consideration everything it can do. The ability to lock out bubbles, and a projectile you can store and fire out in an instant with varying effects. It seems roughly on par with gravity driver.

Crashing incantation

Does a fair amount of damage for time taken, has a decent side effect

(i'm not going to go over all of them, you get the idea .. They're useful, but not so useful they overperform)

Implosion engine

mental impact

Mechanical monstrosity

fire all weapons

endbringers grasp

master of the mind

Ultimates i think are too weak

fury of the dragon

Can't remember much about this one, but i don't see many using it, so that certainly isn't a good sign; and the one time i tried it a long time ago, i recall it being very disappointing.

Planar fracture

Tiny damage, completely static, and it takes time to charge; even the side effects, which i presume are the focus of this ultimate, are pretty terrible. A serious contender for worst ultimate in the game.

Mind link

Also possibly the worst ultimate in the game. Not only is it fixed to a specific stat, the damage returned is limited to this particular stat. The damage you take is not reduced while using it..If that were not bad enough, the effects of this power can only occur once every half second, and it is a maintain, so you can't use other powers at the same time. You're basically a sitting duck when you use this, and you'd very likely be much better off had you not even used it in the first place.

Fractal aegis

I feel this ultimate shouldn't be dependent on the number of people you hit as the effects of using it are minimal as is; "between 10% and 30% resistance"? So what determines what causes this, and is there a limit on how many you can hit and how much resistance you'll gain? It could really use some clarification...It is basically a lesser version of an active defense.. I mean, why would you take this over say.. Unbreakable? The knock? Hardly worthy of being an "ultimate" wouldn't you say?

Ultimates i think are too strong

Vorpal blade

No charge up, ridiculous damage potential.. Compare this to most other ultimates that have a charge time, and compare the damage potential, and it is obvious it is greatly over performing.. This power is supposed to be on level with things like planar fracture, and mindlink as an ultimate; they aren't even comparable.

Egoblade pandemonium

Another ridiculous ultimate that has an obscene amount of damage output. It gets worse when you take into consideration you can still attack while this power is active. As if melee damage were not strong enough, you can now melee while you melee. Just comparing this particular power to mindlink, a power that is similar in that you have to be close to deal damage, except to deal damage you have to take damage; and you're not free to attack while you do it as it must be maintained; AND the damage for mindlink is limited to the amount of a specific stat you have.. How did such a grossly different power gap form between ultimates?

Unleashed rage

Instant massive damage output in an area. The timing of the animation also doesn't align with the power. If a target is in range of the power the moment it is pressed, even if they run a great distance away from it, the power still impacts. It is basically just a slightly worse version of vorpal blade. Also... Isn't this supposed to be the ultimate for the might framework?....Why is it sonic damage? It doesn't scale with unstoppable at all which is really bizarre; that should probably be changed.

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aiqa

Regarding the three OP Ultimates. A few years ago when we only had UR as a (real?) melee ultimate, I might have agreed. But now that we have some new ultimates it's quite obvious how those are being balanced and where the differences come from.

The melee ultimates are getting strong click spike damage, while ranged ultimates are charges and get some so more utility. That is because for melee you have to first approach your enemies, so they already start attacking. While with ranged you can just charge things up from a distance and get the first hit in anyway.

Of course this is a difference between looking at things from a pvp or pve point of view. But I don't think CO is at a point where pvp balance is a big consideration.

theravenforce

Question...are you speaking about these ultimates in a PvP or PvE combat situation?

As for Energy Storm, Mind Link & Fractal Aegis...

Energy Storm has serious issues and ideally should be re-done completely, as it has the potential to harm your allies (or you) in certain combat situations. However, because it is literally several different powers wrapped into one...it may be a while before it can be deconstructed and reworked into something else.

Mind Link's main problem is that it's attempting to be something akin to damage reflect but fails because there is no threshold for the kind of damage it reflects, each tick is completely random, which means it can be pretty crap.

Fractal Aegis to me should firstly spawn ice armor around your character's model, not floating ice crystals, but I doubt that's going to change. Also it goes very much against the "intended" range for Ice, which is range...not melee, so that's also questionable. Maybe one day we'll see an appropriate ranged ult.

eva1988

aiqa said:

Regarding the three OP Ultimates. A few years ago when we only had UR as a (real?) melee ultimate, I might have agreed. But now that we have some new ultimates it's quite obvious how those are being balanced and where the differences come from.

The melee ultimates are getting strong click spike damage, while ranged ultimates are charges and get some so more utility. That is because for melee you have to first approach your enemies, so they already start attacking. While with ranged you can just charge things up from a distance and get the first hit in anyway.

Of course this is a difference between looking at things from a pvp or pve point of view. But I don't think CO is at a point where pvp balance is a big consideration.

I'm saying even despite range being able to attack from a range, the disparity between the two is still ridiculous. They've miscalculated greatly in terms of what difference some range grants you.

I've played both melee and range quite extensively in both PVE and PVP, and i can say in PVP, range is only a strong factor when mobility, and CC is taken into consideration ( and positioning, but most don't pay attention to that in PVP). Mobile ranged attacks are much more deadly to a melee than a static one; which is why powers like ascension are basically complete counters to melee.

What i'm trying to say is, range is only really a threat when they can move around, it isn't really because they have range, but because they can move with range. So if someone has to stand still to fire off a ranged attack, like say.. lightning arc, it is balanced already by the fact that melee still have mobility with all of their attacks, and the person using lightning arc has to stand still. Ranged damage is pretty minimal when it isn't charged, where as melee can charge whilst maintaining full mobility. Also, we're talking about a gap that is closed in an instant with a lunge... I should also say, i'm saying this as a person who currently mainly plays melee...Melee really isn't that disadvantaged by a bit of distance.

Now add in CC, both styles are pretty evenly disadvantaged by CC.. Both struggle to get away in that situation. Now you could say if ranged was rooted, they can still attack from a distance, but then so can melee, as they presumably have some kind of lunge.

Also take into consideration that you can't really cut off the line of sight of a melee attack, where as you can with a ranged attack, making it possible to reel them in closer as you easily evade behind whatever obstacle.

In PVE range is pretty negligible as npcs have melee and range attacks, so you're never safe no matter what distance you're standing.

Also, UR and vorpal blade are technically ranged AOE attacks.

eva1988

aiqa said:

Regarding the three OP Ultimates. A few years ago when we only had UR as a (real?) melee ultimate, I might have agreed. But now that we have some new ultimates it's quite obvious how those are being balanced and where the differences come from.

The melee ultimates are getting strong click spike damage, while ranged ultimates are charges and get some so more utility. That is because for melee you have to first approach your enemies, so they already start attacking. While with ranged you can just charge things up from a distance and get the first hit in anyway.

Of course this is a difference between looking at things from a pvp or pve point of view. But I don't think CO is at a point where pvp balance is a big consideration.

They've miscalculated greatly the advantage a bit of range gives you. Also, UR and Vorpal blade are technically ranged aoe attacks..

Melee have less range, but they can charge their attacks with full mobility. Ranged, where their damage isn't reduced, their mobility is. So to make up for melee being mobile and dealing high damage, with range you have a choice : give up your damage for mobility, like with the archery and munitions framework. Or Have high burst damage, but reduce your mobility; an example being powers like force cascade and lighting arc. There are exceptions to the rule like rimefire burst, but that comes with a hefty cooldown.

Then there are other things like, it is easier to cut off the line of sight to a ranged attack than it is to a melee attack.

From a PVE perspective, NPCs have ranged and melee attacks.. And they can lunge, so it basically makes little difference in that regard.

spinnytop

It's a well known fact that old ultimates are jank, so don't worry, you can put a firm "They're gonna take care of this" stamp on that concern.

On the other hand: Saying Energy Storm is fine? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh u w0t?

eva1988 said:

They've miscalculated greatly the advantage a bit of range gives you.

No they haven't, range gives massive utility. As someone who actually uses movement and range effectively, I can tell you it's pretty dope, and totally fly.

avianos

Energy storm

Another ultimate that i think is balanced quite well, not too strong, not too weak when you take into consideration everything it can do. The ability to lock out bubbles, and a projectile you can store and fire out in an instant with varying effects. It seems roughly on par with gravity driver.

This thread is officially a JOKE
I should have stop reading here, but I expect OP to complain about 2 certain melee ultimates

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand I was right

Ultimates i think are too strong
Vorpal blade
Egoblade pandemonium
Unleashed rage

Let me guess, they are stronk because "MUH PEEVEEPEE" again

and I reply, SCREW PVP

and their PvE range is justified because they are freaking Ultimates, and they need that melee range​​

eva1988

"This thread is officially a JOKE
I should have stop reading here, but I expect OP to complain about 2 certain melee ultimates"



The reason you expected me to complain about them is because you know they're too strong yourself. You'd have never guessed which they were had they been indistinguishable from the lesser ultimates.. Kind of a silly oversight really.

eva1988

spinnytop said:

It's a well known fact that old ultimates are jank, so don't worry, you can put a firm "They're gonna take care of this" stamp on that concern.

On the other hand: Saying Energy Storm is fine? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh u w0t?

eva1988 said:

They've miscalculated greatly the advantage a bit of range gives you.

No they haven't, range gives massive utility. As someone who actually uses movement and range effectively, I can tell you it's pretty dope, and totally fly.

As someone who frequently PVPs against ranged as melee, I can say it doesn't give that much utility at all.

Energy storm locks out all bubbles... That is pretty strong don't you think? And after you take the energy, if you stack it with rimefire, you get a huge burst of damage...

avianos

except they are NOT OP as you claim and they are perfectly balanced on the melee aspect, and they get the same dps potential like other lockbox DPS ultimates

I had been waiting 5 years for Melee TK and Single Blade to get Ultimates, and I won't get someone like you to NERF them

you know why I knew you would mention them? because PVPers always whine about Unleashed Rage and Vorpal Blade
they always whine period​​

eva1988

avianos said:

except they are NOT OP as you claim and they are perfectly balanced on the melee aspect, and they get the same dps potential like other lockbox DPS ultimates



I had been waiting 5 years for Melee TK and Single Blade to get Ultimates, and I won't get someone like you to NERF them



you know why I knew you would mention them? because PVPers always whine about Unleashed Rage and Vorpal Blade

they always whine period​​

I'm so tired of people like you. You'll throw the game under the wheels to selfishly preserve your own build.

avianos

eva1988 wrote: »

I'm so tired of people like you. You'll throw the game under the wheels to selfishly preserve your own build.

And Im tired of delusional PvPers like you who believe they know the right balance
in a MMO which is PVE dominant​​

eva1988

"And Im tired of delusional PvPers like you who believe they know the right balance
in a MMO which is PVE dominant​​"

How does reducing the damage output of these abilities impact PVE that badly? So you do slightly less damage to an NPC that you'll likely oneshot anyway. You know it overperforms in comparison to the other ultimates, so stop being selfish.

Do you know what "balance" means? If you've got one ability that over performs, or under performs, you bring them in line with the rest of the powers.

baelogventure

eva1988 said:

Fractal aegis

I mean, why would you take this over say.. Unbreakable?

eva1988 said:

As someone who frequently PVPs

eva1988 said:

I'm so tired of people like you. You'll throw the game under the wheels to selfishly preserve your own build.

eva1988 said:

Do you know what "balance" means?

eva1988

I..Is that a meme?..

I certainly hope you're laughing with me, and not at me.

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avianos

eva1988 wrote: »

How does reducing the damage output of these abilities impact PVE that badly? So you do slightly less damage to an NPC that you'll likely oneshot anyway. You know it overperforms in comparison to the other ultimates, so stop being selfish.

ENDGAME COSMIC BOSSES and DPS CHECKS EVENTS where ULTIMATES Dps are needed doesn't exist in your small PeeVeePee world apparently

eva1988 wrote: »

so stop being selfish.

eva1988 wrote: »

Do you know what "balance" means? If you've got one ability that over performs, or under performs, you bring them in line with the rest of the powers.

Said the PvPer who wants stuff nerfed because it kills him
the classic "NERF THIS BECAUSE I DIE' Mentality

Can you spell Hypocrisy?​​

darqaura2

PVP should be dead last in terms of balance in this game. It's long been dead.

With the limited amount of dev resources we now have (and have had for a while) the devs have better things to do than focus on balance from a pvp perspective.

They're already doing a great job with balance in terms of PVE. Let's have them focus on that.

eva1988

"ENDGAME COSMIC BOSSES and DPS CHECKS EVENTS where ULTIMATES Dps are needed "

So what you're saying is, before vorpal blade, and ego blade pandemonium, nobody ever defeated a cosmic?...

eva1988

darqaura2 said:

PVP should be dead last in terms of balance in this game. It's long been dead.

With the limited amount of dev resources we now have (and have had for a while) the devs have better things to do than focus on balance from a pvp perspective.

They're already doing a great job with balance in terms of PVE. Let's have them focus on that.

But it isn't balanced in PVE either... People don't seem to understand.. .If you've got a power that is too strong in PVP, it is likely too strong in PVE as well. "Why?" i hear you ask, well if the power does too much damage in PVP, it means it is outperforming other powers; and what happens when powers outperform other powers? Everyone flocks to that power, and you kill any variety in the game.

Do you want a game where only a few powers are viable, or do you want a game with a greater range of useful powers?

By making one power too useful, you make the rest of the powers a more useless choice..

And since there are fewer over performing powers than underperforming powers, it would be more resourceful to adjust the few.

Oh, and i hardly PVP anymore, i mean, i do more PVE now than i do PVP.

spinnytop

I think the reason you think those ultimates are too strong is because your metric for properly balanced is.... Energy Storm.

Ultimates are strong powers on long cooldowns, when you use them it should feel like you're unleashing the peak of your abilities, the kind of thing you need a breather to perform again. When I use Energy Storm it doesn't feel like that. There are tier 2 powers that feel more impactful than Energy Storm, and that are in fact mechanically more impactful on a fight than Energy Storm. If there are Tier 2 powers that will have a bigger impact on a fight than your ULTIMATE POWER... then that Ultimate power might possibly not be the best metric for a properly balanced Ultimate.

Also the "there are fewer overperforming powers so it takes less time to just cut them down" logic doesn't apply here because there aren't that many Ultimates to begin with. It also doesn't apply here because some of the ones you claim are too powerful are new powers, meaning they are setting the standard for Ultimate power levels. Your personal metric simply isn't matched to the metric that is being applied in the current update... and if your metric is Energy Storm, then you were lowballing ultimates even before the current update.


PS - you also have an inconsistency in your argument. First you point out that Planar Fracture is too weak, and then you say that Vorpal Blade is too strong because it's stronger than Planar Fracture. Furthermore... Planar Fracture is actually a stronger power than Energy Storm...so the fact that you say the first one is too weak and the second one is just fine...

aesica

eva1988 wrote: »

Energy storm

Another ultimate that i think is balanced quite well, not too strong, not too weak when you take into consideration everything it can do. The ability to lock out bubbles, and a projectile you can store and fire out in an instant with varying effects. It seems roughly on par with gravity driver.

LOL.

Energy Storm is an example of something with way too much setup. It's a total mess and desperately needs some sort of complete redesign. Literally the only time I've ever seen someone use Energy Storm was when I specifically took it in the Powerhouse to see it for myself. Not once have I seen it used out in the wild.

eva1988 wrote: »

Ultimates i think are too strong

Vorpal blade

Egoblade pandemonium

Unleashed rage

Bear in mind, these particular abilities are restricted by requiring that the user have specific form types active for maximum performance. I'm not personally a fan of this because it restricts choice, heavily encouraging the use of a particular ultimate if your form type matches up with it while discouraging the use of ultimates with differing form types.​​

flowcyto

The melee ults also tend to lack AoE radius severely vs the ranged ones, and lack debuffs or buffs that the whole team can use; they're a bit more 'selfish' overall. Vorpal Blade is a 15ft sphere around the primary target, and its nice for getting 5x bleed on a clumped group. Its def good if built around, but I wouldn't call it OP since its main utility lies in exploiting bleeds- not all melee builds do that, and even then its still a setup to be followed up on. UR is pretty rewarding for builds that use Enrage, but its Sonic dmg prevents it from benefiting from more debuffs, and it still takes 8x Enrage to be optimal. EB Pandemonium is an energy-using toggle w/ a mere 10ft radius. Its dps is good if you can still have the energy to attack on top of it, but its not w/o its drawbacks.

Ranged maintains like Showdown and FAW can deal lotsa dmg in a large area if you can maintain them even partially. Power Chord w/ Rock Concert, Grav Driver, Mental Impact, and Crashing Incant can all have nice utility for boosting team dmg (on top of some CC). Fractal Aegis can give you a semi-AD that's not on the shared AD timer, and builds extra AoE threat w/ its adv. As per the tooltip, its dmgRes does also increase w/ the rank of the targets hit, which if true is handy (and it lasts for 20 sec).

FotDragon's base dmg per tick at 8x Focus is close to Showdown's, last I checked- which isn't bad for its shorter cd, much lower energy cost, no charge time, and CC immunity while casting. It also applies CF to targets, and can bleed w/ the adv. It has smaller reach than a ranged ultimate, and takes Focus to be good- but that's a bit to be expected. Planar Fracture isn't that great, sure, but it does have a large radius and lasts for a long time; imo its main drawback is its selection of debuffs being kinda 'meh', and w/ how random they are.

Most of the ults are not that bad in terms of balance, imo, considering how wild some of their properties are (or rather- have to be), and the fact that some are old and haven't received much attention yet.

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avianos

eva1988 wrote: »

"
So what you're saying is, before vorpal blade, and ego blade pandemonium, nobody ever defeated a cosmic?...

Trully spoken as someone who has never fought Teleiosarus and Eidolon's extremely DPS Checks

aesica wrote: »

Bear in mind, these particular abilities are restricted by requiring that the user have specific form types active for maximum performance. I'm not personally a fan of this because it restricts choice, heavily encouraging the use of a particular ultimate if your form type matches up with it while discouraging the use of ultimates with differing form types.

Another fair point and to break it down for

• Unleashed Rage: Scales only with ENRAGED stacks, 8 stacks for maximun damage
• Vorpal Blade: Scales only with FOCUS stacks, 8 stacks for maximun damage
• Egoblade pandemonium: Doesn't require a toggle form to like the others 2, however it a energy per second toggle, if you run out of energy the ultimate will immediately stop before reaching it's full duration
  making TK Reverbation the BEST EU if you want to use this along with other powers

I'm going to take @aiqa and @flowcyto opinions for the subject seriously, since they are both trustworthy, doing parse tests on powers for PTS Feedback and sharing builds
if those ultimates were overperforming, DEVs would have nerfed them long time ago like they did with Gravity Driver and Endbringers Grasp

OP, Stop sugar coating this, it's obviously you want them nerfed because of PvP (like your other threads).
This has nothing to do with PvE

and of course i won't take your opinion seriously when you say that Energy storm is "Balanced"
an ultimate with too much set up for underwelming damage output
that and mind link are the Joke ultimates of the game​​

eva1988

I seriously think people are undervaluing the benefit of being able to lockout bubbles, it basically shuts out entire builds; but, if so many think this isn't the case, then i guess maybe i got that particular power wrong.

Also, energy storm isn't my metric, i gave a long list of powers that i thought were quite well balanced, everyone just seems to be picking energy storm because they think it strengthens their hand in terms of discrediting my opinion on this particular issue. I'm not perfect, perhaps i got energy storm wrong, i still think it is quite strong; but go through the entire list, don't just pick one you disagree with and tell me why my entire opinion on each ultimate is flawed because of my opinion on one ultimate.

Saying "your logic doesn't apply" doesn't mean the logic doesn't apply. If you have more of something that needs changing, that means more time and resources are required to change it; if you have less, that means less work/time/resources.

Also, that isn't an inconsistency in my argument, that was me pointing out the chasm between those two powers. You saying "energy storm is weaker than planar fracture" is just your opinion.

-

Energy storm probably does need a redesign, i don't particularly like the power, i don't think it really fits any framework..When it came out it just felt like a means of giving elementals a power as an ultimate that covered the entire category.

With them being ultimates, i'm okay with them being restricted to form types, it means you need to invest something into the framework to get the "ultimate" power.. Which kind of makes sense.

-

Okay, take into consideration this : When most people use these ultimates, they're going to use them when their target can't move, or avoid it. With that in mind, do you see why it doesn't particularly matter that the range is short? One root, one lunge, one jump, they're in range.

Also, saying it "requires setup" is untrue, it doesn't require setup, it simply gets stronger the longer you wait to activate it. Something that fires instantly in a massive burst compared to something that you have to actually stand and charge up that doesn't get stronger the longer you wait.

The "drawbacks" of these ultimates are easily overcome. I've seen plenty of builds where people are attacking at the same time as using egoblade pandemonium, and the damage output is just absurd.

-

All ultimates should not perform like vorpal blade, UR and egoblade pandemonium. You know what would actually fix these powers somewhat (in regards to UR and Vorpal blade)? If they weren't instantaneous; if you had to actually charge them up before you fired them, i'd be fine with it. It is because they are just an instant massive burst out of nowhere that they're so ridiculous... It reminds me of strafing run actually, where it was basically just an instant mass of damage at a range, although this time the damage is higher in exchange for the range. Something that can deal so much damage should not be happening in an instant.

-

I've completed all cosmics, so what you're saying doesn't apply. Infact, i'd completed all the cosmics back before ultimates were even a thing.

Once again; unleashed rage, and vorpal blade scaling with stacks is an ADVANTAGE. Other ultimates don't get stronger, they're stuck at their base, these two ultimates only get stronger over a very short period of time. You can get eight stacks in around 32 seconds from a rank 1 form.

And as i've said, ego blade pandemonium might take energy as it runs (similar to mind link), but this weakness has been overcome. With EBP i'd simply reduce the damage and energy cost, it is way too strong when stack with other melee attacks; and it is obvious that it was intended to be used with melee attacks.

baelogventure

eva1988 said:

I seriously think people are undervaluing the benefit of being able to lockout bubbles, it basically shuts out entire builds

eva1988

baelogventure said:

eva1988 said:

I seriously think people are undervaluing the benefit of being able to lockout bubbles, it basically shuts out entire builds

You have a build based around bubbles, that one power locks you out...

I don't understand how to argue with memes..

baelogventure

eva1988 said:

I don't understand how to argue with memes..

Let me put this in very plain speak.

You, a PvPer - But this power is fine because MUH PVP but this other power is OP also because MUH PVP

Me, an average endgame player - You're extremely ignorant about the subjects you speak of.

You cannot understand why someone would take Fractal Aegis over Unbreakable in any situation.
You believe Energy Storm to be a viable power due to it's ability to cancel a PvP build.
You claim that others in this thread do not understand balance, while calling for changes due to your PvP bias.
You say you have completed all cosmics, back before ultimates were "a thing", yet give no mention of them after their upgrades.

This is why I laugh at you.

theravenforce

"Also, saying it "requires setup" is untrue, it doesn't require setup, it simply gets stronger the longer you wait to activate it. Something that fires instantly in a massive burst compared to something that you have to actually stand and charge up that doesn't get stronger the longer you wait."

I'm sorry but what?

Energy Storm has additional effects with increased set up. The idea is to get the best out of it by stacking the following effects on your target:

- Chill
- Clinging Flames
- Negative Ions
- Containment Fields (PFF, PF, MR, HPM, ER, Bastion, possibly Mental Block too oh and obviously Containment Field (power))

Each absorption of the effect grants a different aura and effect for the power to accomplish.

The problem is...some of these effects (one in particular) can cause severe issues in combat (killing/harming self or allies) and the way the game has gone now as well as certain set ups (Rimefire Disaster spam builds) are disrupted by the ultimates use.

The locking out of some bubbles is fine but that effect needs to be controlled for in its own right.

If you absorb 8 energy charges of nothing...all that's going to accomplish is a "10%" damage buff per stack, which isn't that strong honestly and it prevents you from charging Gigabolt.

I don't get why...hold up:

"Once again; unleashed rage, and vorpal blade scaling with stacks is an ADVANTAGE. Other ultimates don't get stronger, they're stuck at their base, these two ultimates only get stronger over a very short period of time. You can get eight stacks in around 32 seconds from a rank 1 form."

No...All Ultimates, with the exception of Mind Link as it itself does not deal any damage gain benefits from your specializations and form powers stacking. The damage they deal is not static.

It's nice that you completed cosmics back when they first came out but have you done so since the revamp?

Note: I very much appreciate the Chris Evans content that this thread has. I approve of it solely for this reason.

spinnytop

It's important to actually play games before you make suggestions for how they should be changed.

flowcyto

Its pretty obvious that the ults fill diff niches, and perhaps one is judging them too much based on specific parameters here.

Once again; unleashed rage, and vorpal blade scaling with stacks is an ADVANTAGE. Other ultimates don't get stronger, they're stuck at their base, these two ultimates only get stronger over a very short period of time. You can get eight stacks in around 32 seconds from a rank 1 form.

This is an odd way of putting it. I'd say its the opposite: the ults that rely on forms will suck w/o the form, and are only made good with them. Its not an 'advantage', imo; its practically a requirement. I mean, UR does barely more than a single tick of FAW's dmg at 0 Enrage, and even all 5 hits of Vorpal on one target are less than a tick of FAW at 0 Focus.

Also, EB Pandemonium's base dps at R3 is a bit shy of R3 EB Frenzy's base dps. So, w/ it up ur effectively having an EBF in the background for 8 sec. That's nice, but I don't see how that's way too strong considering that EBF's per-target base dps isn't stand-out as is, and a self-only dps boost is the ult's main purpose after all.

If they added a charge to UR then I doubt they'll also force the player to wait the pre-canned anim for it to actually land after the charge, as that makes it pretty damn slow and could defeat the purpose of it being a burst dps cd. Instead, its prob more likely (if they did undergo this change) that they'd make the current activation anim the charge time/anim, and then the time of impact may not be much diff. Even then, these complaints really just seem to be coming from a PvP perspective, as I just don't really see how something like the current UR is OP in a PvE setting.

Vorp Blade is actually closer overall to Meltdown: similar upfront dmg (assuming 8x Focus for Vorp and 5x hits), both can apply 5x a DoT to targets that can be exploited by certain builds, both are 15ft AoEs, and they have the same base cd. Vorp doesn't have the charge up- which may seem crazy, but that's prob to make up for Meltdown also CCing everything hit on impact, and Meltdown also not being tied to a specific form's stacks. Even despite the 'instant' nature of Vorp, its still feasible to move out of range after activation and have the entire thing miss.

And since Strafe Run was brought up- the old SR was pretty insane; even the good ults now don't really compare to how SR was (thankfully).

eva1988

baelogventure said:

eva1988 said:

I don't understand how to argue with memes..

Let me put this in very plain speak.

You, a PvPer - But this power is fine because MUH PVP but this other power is OP also because MUH PVP

Me, an average endgame player - You're extremely ignorant about the subjects you speak of.

You cannot understand why someone would take Fractal Aegis over Unbreakable in any situation.
You believe Energy Storm to be a viable power due to it's ability to cancel a PvP build.
You claim that others in this thread do not understand balance, while calling for changes due to your PvP bias.
You say you have completed all cosmics, back before ultimates were "a thing", yet give no mention of them after their upgrades.

This is why I laugh at you.

Right, so you laugh due to a difference of opinion?

I'm looking at the power's overall potential. That includes PVP. Being able to lock out bubbles in PVP makes it a strong power in my opinion; if i were to look at PVE, and PVP separately, i'd of course say that energy storm isn't very good in PVE.

I stand by what i said about fractal aegis, it is just a lesser version of an active defense, with some minor side elements.

Why is it a problem talking about PVP exactly? You act as if it is some kind of sin, yet it is a part of the game. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean i'm not allowed to talk about it. I would like them to pay more attention to PVP for the simple reason that once you're done getting all your gear, there is nothing else to do but start another character, or roleplay. Once you're geared up, PVP is the endgame content, unless you want to start again that is, or just play for fun. You actually think you can just say "they're talking about PVP!" and that somehow shuts down the argument, it doesn't; the game has PVP, some people like it, some people don't, but it is a part of the game that i feel deserves attention none the less. However! That doesn't mean i'm talking about PVP in this instance, as i said, i'm looking at the powers as a whole whilst trying to leave nothing out.

It isn't bias, i don't like it when powers are broken in PVE either, it just isn't as noticeable because you're not on the receiving end of it. As i said before, i do more PVE than i do PVP in this game, that doesn't mean i prefer one over the other; i like them both pretty equally.

Also, because i did not mention cosmics after their upgrade, doesn't mean i haven't completed cosmics there also, when only unleashed rage was a thing. I've completed cosmics in basically every iteration of the game after release. You could have a team up of people with no ultimates, and they'd still be able to kill a cosmic; so what you're saying just doesn't apply at all.

eva1988

theravenforce said:

"Also, saying it "requires setup" is untrue, it doesn't require setup, it simply gets stronger the longer you wait to activate it. Something that fires instantly in a massive burst compared to something that you have to actually stand and charge up that doesn't get stronger the longer you wait."

I'm sorry but what?

Energy Storm has additional effects with increased set up. The idea is to get the best out of it by stacking the following effects on your target:

- Chill
- Clinging Flames
- Negative Ions
- Containment Fields (PFF, PF, MR, HPM, ER, Bastion, possibly Mental Block too oh and obviously Containment Field (power))

Each absorption of the effect grants a different aura and effect for the power to accomplish.

The problem is...some of these effects (one in particular) can cause severe issues in combat (killing/harming self or allies) and the way the game has gone now as well as certain set ups (Rimefire Disaster spam builds) are disrupted by the ultimates use.

The locking out of some bubbles is fine but that effect needs to be controlled for in its own right.

If you absorb 8 energy charges of nothing...all that's going to accomplish is a "10%" damage buff per stack, which isn't that strong honestly and it prevents you from charging Gigabolt.

I don't get why...hold up:

"Once again; unleashed rage, and vorpal blade scaling with stacks is an ADVANTAGE. Other ultimates don't get stronger, they're stuck at their base, these two ultimates only get stronger over a very short period of time. You can get eight stacks in around 32 seconds from a rank 1 form."

No...All Ultimates, with the exception of Mind Link as it itself does not deal any damage gain benefits from your specializations and form powers stacking. The damage they deal is not static.

It's nice that you completed cosmics back when they first came out but have you done so since the revamp?

Note: I very much appreciate the Chris Evans content that this thread has. I approve of it solely for this reason.

In regards to energy storm, it really is just a difference of opinion, some people find it weak, but i think those that do are mostly looking at it from a damage potential perspective.

Also, in terms of stacks increasing all ultimates, i meant aside from the obvious. I'm pretty sure we're all well aware that having stacks increases the damage of all attacks, however the scaling is altered for unleashed rage and vorpal blade. I haven't actually tested this of course, i'm just assuming that the scaling is different for these powers because it takes the time to mention that stacks have an effect on the ultimate, although i'm sure someone out there has tested it. And in the instance that the scaling isn't different, it still just means the power is too instantaneous, or deals too much damage.

baelogventure

eva1988 said:

That includes PVP.

it is just a lesser version of an active defense

Why is it a problem talking about PVP exactly?

You actually think you can just say "they're talking about PVP!" and that somehow shuts down the argument, it doesn't

It isn't bias

so what you're saying just doesn't apply at all.

eva1988

baelogventure said:

eva1988 said:

That includes PVP.

it is just a lesser version of an active defense

Why is it a problem talking about PVP exactly?

You actually think you can just say "they're talking about PVP!" and that somehow shuts down the argument, it doesn't

It isn't bias

so what you're saying just doesn't apply at all.

Nice argument.

spinnytop

Still more convincing than the one you're making, and better informed.

eva1988

spinnytop said:

Still more convincing than the one you're making, and better informed.

Now now, no need to get upset; aren't we just having a friendly discussion here?


I mean, i get it; he is trying to be funny whilst at the same time attempt to belittle the argument i've put forth; but when he isn't attempting to put forward a counter argument, it is just the same as conceding.

spinnytop

eva1988 said:

Now now, no need to get upset

avianos

eva1988 wrote: »

I mean, i get it; he is trying to be funny whilst at the same time attempt to belittle the argument i've put forth; but when he isn't attempting to put forward a counter argument, it is just the same as conceding.

You have 9 people in this thread (2 of which are the most respectful members of the community and know more about power balance) who tell you that you are wrong, give you evidence about the balance and you still REJECT IT

Your original argument was SO TRANSPARENT, everyone could see that you want only PvP BS balance and this has nothing to do with PvE
but you continue to be a huge stubborn hypocrite​​

draogn

I don't know if I would classify Mind link as useless, it certainly could be better. After being nerfed and being turned into a gimmick Endbringers grasp is pretty bad. It's 'special' effect will often bug alerts or cause you to miss timers. Anything that you'd want to use this abilities effect on is generally immune and everything else will likely die long before its effect takes hold.

aesica

eva1988 wrote: »

I seriously think people are undervaluing the benefit of being able to lockout bubbles, it basically shuts out entire builds;

This right here is pretty much the nail in the coffin for this thread. It shows that the only metric you're really even considering with all this is pvp value, but you really need to understand that this isn't a pvp game. It's a pve game with a small pvp minigame that most people don't bother with. (Well technically, it's a barbie dressup game with a pve minigame and pvp microgame, but you get my point)​​

eva1988

"You have 9 people in this thread (2 of which are the most respectful members of the community and know more about power balance) who tell you that you are wrong, give you evidence about the balance and you still REJECT IT

Your original argument was SO TRANSPARENT, everyone could see that you want only PvP BS balance and this has nothing to do with PvE
but you continue to be a huge stubborn hypocrite​​"


Evidence? What evidence? We're arguing over pure subjectivity here. We're talking about if we think the some powers are too powerful, and some are not. How can anyone be "wrong" in that scenario? Also, don't presume to know how much i know about power balance, for all you know i might know more than them. Of course you'll say something along the lines of "well obviously not with that argument you put forward" and then we're back in opinion land. Of course i'm not saying i do know more, merely suggesting that you don't know what i know, so don't talk as if you do...If it came to light that i did know more, would you change your mind? That is something you should ask yourself; because from what i can tell you've already decided on the answer before even engaging in argument.

PVP was taken into consideration with the ultimates, but i didn't only take that into consideration. Only i know what i was actually considering, everyone else is merely speculating. Speculating falsely in this particular case because it strengthens their argument in preventing these powers being reduced for motives only they know.

PVP isn't a reason to ignore balancing a power; to ignore balance because of it in some way being associated with PVP is one of the reasons the game is so dead in the first place i'd argue.

Also, this isn't a democracy, and the majority aren't always right; assuming you are the majority, for all we know there could be more who agree with me who simply don't venture the forums; who knows? I mean, if we were to take into account all the pvpers who left because they felt PVP wasn't getting enough attention, i'm sure they'd all agree with me.

eva1988

"This right here is pretty much the nail in the coffin for this thread. It shows that the only metric you're really even considering with all this is pvp value, but you really need to understand that this isn't a pvp game. It's a pve game with a small pvp minigame that most people don't bother with. (Well technically, it's a barbie dressup game with a pve minigame and pvp microgame, but you get my point)​​"

I disagree, something being altered for the sake of PVP is a good idea in my opinion; whoever thought it was a bad idea is probably responsible for the rapid decline of this game since launch, and since free to play. Ignoring such a large demographic was a big mistake. Had PVP had more attention, you'd likely have more PVE content right now as they'd have made more money.

PvP has longevity, PVE does not. PVP gives you something to do after the PVE is over, they are both important parts of an MMO in my opinion.

Also, you claiming my motives are exclusively on PVP is just utterly false, and completely assumption. I covered most ultimates and judged them in terms of their value in PVP, and PVE collectively; and for some reason that means everything i say is somehow wrong, or tainted? I'm afraid i'll have to disagree with you there.

Let me give you an example of where i judged a power on PVE, and PVP. Endbringers grasp; why did i place that where i suggested ultimates were balanced if that power is so useless in PVP? Because i took into account it's corruption aspect in PVE.. Please don't try and say i'm only looking at PVP when i'm trying my best to look at both.

The game has PVP in it, it is a PVP game. It has PVE in it, it is also a PVE game. These are just the facts.

aesica

eva1988 wrote: »

PVP isn't a reason to ignore balancing a power; to ignore balance because of it in some way being associated with PVP is one of the reasons the game is so dead in the first place i'd argue.

Of course it's not a reason to ignore balance, but in literally every online game I've ever played, the task of balancing is different for pvp than it is for pve. Even games like wow, which does a fairly good job at balancing both, has struggled with the pvp vs pve aspect because what fixes one can muck up the other. In the most recent expansion, they pretty much just said "!^#$ it" and made a special set of talents and abilities that are only applied in pvp.

Since the CO devs have limited resources, it makes sense that they'd choose to focus on the one that's more popular--pve in this case.​​

eva1988

"Of course it's not a reason to ignore balance, but in literally every online game I've ever played, the task of balancing is different for pvp than it is for pve. Even games like wow, which does a fairly good job at balancing both, has struggled with the pvp vs pve aspect because what fixes one can muck up the other. In the most recent expansion, they pretty much just said "!^#$ it" and made a special set of talents and abilities that are only applied in pvp.

Since the CO devs have limited resources, it makes sense that they'd choose to focus on the one that's more popular--pve in this case.​​"

So you agree with me then, that there should be balance between the powers?

If that is the case, how is it you find powers like vorpal blade on par with something like say.. Gravity driver, to pick one at random.

It deals damage instantly, in an area, and deals more damage than gravity driver. Gravity driver is ranged, AOE, has a knockdown, but deals only a small fraction of the damage vorpal blade puts out, and requires charging, and has a cooldown. Take into consideration the cooldowns, by the time someone is ready to fire vorpal blade a second time, they're already at eight stacks. How is that balanced??

This is what i mean when i say they've miscalculated how much of an advantage a bit of range gives you.

aesica

eva1988 wrote: »

So you agree with me then, that there should be balance between the powers?

Ideally yes, but only if the dev team has resources they can devote toward doing so. If they don't (which I suspect they don't) then all they can really do is pick whichever one is the most popular and focus on that one. In this case, pve is the winner.

eva1988 wrote: »

This is what i mean when i say they've miscalculated how much of an advantage a bit of range gives you.

It's possible, especially given how easy it is to get into melee range in this game. 3 second cooldown on gap closers = rofl in just about any other game. Still, I haven't compared the damage between the two because I don't use either, so I'm choosing to not really have an opinion on either. (Edit: Other than not being a fan of the "this ultimate only deals full damage if you're using this type of form" mechanic some have)​​

Unknown

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avianos

eva1988 wrote: »

PvP has longevity, PVE does not. PVP gives you something to do after the PVE is over, they are both important parts of an MMO in my opinion.

IN A PVE DOMINANT GAME

eva1988 wrote: »

"
Evidence? What evidence?

Do you need someone to give you full DPS Pasee of each ultimate?
But that would be a waste of time because you are so Ignorant

eva1988 wrote: »

"
If that is the case, how is it you find powers like vorpal blade on par with something like say.. Gravity driver, to pick one at random.

It deals damage instantly, in an area, and deals more damage than gravity driver. Gravity driver is ranged, AOE, has a knockdown, but deals only a small fraction of the damage vorpal blade puts out, and requires charging, and has a cooldown. Take into consideration the cooldowns, by the time someone is ready to fire vorpal blade a second time, they're already at eight stacks. How is that balanced??

This is what i mean when i say they've miscalculated how much of an advantage a bit of range gives you.

Grasping at straws
I have never seen such desperate pvp imbecile trying to pursue that a power is overperforming in "PVE" to get it nerfed for PVP​​

bluhman

I'm going to lock this thread as it is too full of flaming, rudeness, ad-hominem arguments, and memes.