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Breakthrough is too difficult to land
eva1988
Posts: 183 Arc User
The problem with the way the current blocking works, is that it requires the defender to make a mistake for the attack to be able to bypass their block.. .
Now in a game that already has really obnoxious things like active defense rotation, with simultaneous near constant health regeneration, having block the way it is just makes a game where defense seems to heavily outweigh attack (it already did before this particular change, but it is much worse now..)
Add on top of that the high mobility of the pvp in general, and you've made it significantly more difficult to kill defense based players..
If the defender makes no mistake with their block timings, their block will never drop. That basically puts the power in the hands of the blocker..And this is a block they can pop up and down in an instant if they so choose; even tap it repeatedly..Even if you're using a rapid attack with breakthrough, it is still too easy for them to avoid it by tapping..
Now maybe something like this works well on a quick reflex game like say.. A fighting game? But on Champions, the visuals of the block can't even keep up with the effect of block, especially when the blocker is moving around, the block animation often outright just gives way to the movement... What does that mean? It means you can't see when you use break through to even catch the person who would be using block. The effect of breakthough, and block are near instantaneous, but the visuals are not..It just makes the whole thing a roll of the dice most of the time.
If block is to stay like this, you need to make it so the attacker CAN bypass their block should they choose; it shouldn't come down to a fighting game style reflex match where the defender is in the position of power, especially when the visuals can't even keep up.
How would i fix it? I have three ways i'd think about changing it..
1. Give block a cooldown, or after pressing it make it stay on for a certain period of time; a period long enough for someone to land a breakthrough. This solves the issue of people just block tapping past everything, and nullifying the majority of attacks..
2. Just revert breakthrough (crippling challenge) to what it was before.. Afterall, this is only a change that impacts pvp; and there is no offense equivalent of blocking, having something that outright cuts it out of pvp seems more fair than what we currently have; which is basically just an extra layer of defense in a game with too much stacked defense.
3.Add a health bar to the block, and remove breakthrough; only have this healthbar in pvp encounters.
Now in a game that already has really obnoxious things like active defense rotation, with simultaneous near constant health regeneration, having block the way it is just makes a game where defense seems to heavily outweigh attack (it already did before this particular change, but it is much worse now..)
Add on top of that the high mobility of the pvp in general, and you've made it significantly more difficult to kill defense based players..
If the defender makes no mistake with their block timings, their block will never drop. That basically puts the power in the hands of the blocker..And this is a block they can pop up and down in an instant if they so choose; even tap it repeatedly..Even if you're using a rapid attack with breakthrough, it is still too easy for them to avoid it by tapping..
Now maybe something like this works well on a quick reflex game like say.. A fighting game? But on Champions, the visuals of the block can't even keep up with the effect of block, especially when the blocker is moving around, the block animation often outright just gives way to the movement... What does that mean? It means you can't see when you use break through to even catch the person who would be using block. The effect of breakthough, and block are near instantaneous, but the visuals are not..It just makes the whole thing a roll of the dice most of the time.
If block is to stay like this, you need to make it so the attacker CAN bypass their block should they choose; it shouldn't come down to a fighting game style reflex match where the defender is in the position of power, especially when the visuals can't even keep up.
How would i fix it? I have three ways i'd think about changing it..
1. Give block a cooldown, or after pressing it make it stay on for a certain period of time; a period long enough for someone to land a breakthrough. This solves the issue of people just block tapping past everything, and nullifying the majority of attacks..
2. Just revert breakthrough (crippling challenge) to what it was before.. Afterall, this is only a change that impacts pvp; and there is no offense equivalent of blocking, having something that outright cuts it out of pvp seems more fair than what we currently have; which is basically just an extra layer of defense in a game with too much stacked defense.
3.Add a health bar to the block, and remove breakthrough; only have this healthbar in pvp encounters.
Post edited by eva1988 on
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Never mind then.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I guess an offensive equivalent to block would be to remove all defense for a huge damage boost. I'm of course not suggesting they should add this, but just pointing out that it is a defense without a counter; and when stacked with other defense it becomes a much greater challenge than it should be...Point being, it isn't fun not being able to get through someone's block on top of all other defense when there is no definite way through it...it is frustrating more than anything; and the poor visual timing doesn't help either.
Also saying "that would break so much that its not even funny" isn't actually an argument. If you're going to say something like that, you're going to have to explain why, or it doesn't really add anything.
"Ever tanked a cosmic? oh wait you were the one who wanted active defenses nerfed..."
I think you're misunderstanding how long I was implying the block be toggled on. If someone pressed block they would then have to stay blocked for a second or two, just enough time for someone to hit them with a breakthrough. That would make no difference to pve.
If block were locked on for a second or two after putting it on, just enough time for someone to hit it with a breakthrough; how would that impact pve? It would barely have an impact at all..
And yes, active defense should still be reduced in effectiveness. But for some reason people have an obsession with cheating within the rules.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Also, if i recall, block is most effective when used preemptively as it has greater benefits when it is held over a certain period of time.
"You know I told you a much easier way to make Break Through worthwhile already, isn't that what you want, not to break block mechanics, but to make break through worthwhile in pvp?"
What you suggested would basically turn block into a mini active defense. You'd have to kill your opponent in 10 seconds or they'd be back to full health and rotating actives.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
"Lmao. Entirely ignoring the fact that you cannot attack while blocking, and the way it is right now you could just block anytime.
What you really want is perma block disable isn't it, well that's probably not coming back."
Despite the fact you can't attack while blocking, there is still on offense equivalent.
I would prefer block were disabled in PVP over what we currently have, yes. It is just another layer of defense to get past stacked on everything else. But where is the extra layer of offense to counter it? If breakthrough can't effectively bypass block, it just means defense gets a buff over offense.
"Yeah and I can usually kill people through block if they spam block, it's not that hard for most builds. Furthermore, those builds which DO have the defense to be invincible while blocking don't have the offense to kill me while blocking so much."
The thing about block, it's usefulness is dependent on the type of block you use, and what rank it is at. On top of that, it is more useful to someone with stacked defense and healing than say a squishy...Defense is all about slowing down how much damage you take till your cooldowns end; and because it stacks with other defense, it becomes a much stronger barrier to kill someone through depending on their build.
Also, what you're talking about is completely relative to your build. I know plenty of builds that are near invincible which can kill me. You can't say "it is not that hard for most builds" you can say "it is not that hard for my build".
Or atleast I don't, and have not for a long time. Mostly it is either a defense passive, or Aura of primal majesty.. However i've seen a downturn in AoPM, so i'm assuming they've probably changed it. Although that might just be because there aren't many pvpers left anymore.
I think it'd probably be necessary to time how long people actually hold block during a cosmic fight, because with people blocking before activation, you're roughly blocking for a second anyway from what i can tell.
Note that i wasn't suggesting both a cooldown AND having the block lock on for a second. It'd be one or the other. Obviously a cooldown would be the worse of the two in terms of PVE.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The block locking in is bad because there are often situations where you start blocking and then quickly have to release block to attack. For example, you're pulling dogs off the CCer, you block because your health gets low, just then the dog begins to howl and you need to stun it quickly; your block is locked in, you can't stun it, wipe. You're fighting gravitar and you have to block because the adds have begun to attack you - just then one of her bubbles appears over you and you need to quickly move out of it; your block is locked in, you can't move quickly enough, you're dead.
I'm sure someone thinking about it for more than a minute could make a long list of examples.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
In the case of gravitar, it simply means you have to be more cautious when you block; it doesn't "break" anything, but simply changes the approach required. Also how often does that situation occur? Not very often i imagine. Also, you can still move while blocking; if it were that much of a problem i don't see why allowing players to move faster while blocking couldn't be implemented; slightly faster that is.
Overall, i see nothing "game breaking" but more something "game changing".
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
One second might be enough to catch that howl... or it might not. In the latter case, your locked in block got everyone killed, even though the player in question was taking the correct action ( they would have died had they not blocked). Bad idea.
You asked for an explanation for why your suggestions were bad ideas and I gave them. Your "game changing" amounts to "make people get killed more often in ways they can't avoid even though they took the correct action" which ultimately removes player agency and stinks of unfairness ( those are both things people universally don't like btw ). These are dead ends, go back to the drawing board.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Ofcourse, i'm open to other suggestions since people seem determined to suggest one second is too much.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
When you block, you get the "Counterplay" debuff for 1 second. While you have this debuff, Breakthrough can effect you, even if you stop blocking.
This gives you the effect you were looking for aka a brief period of vulnerability to breakthrough even if the target only blocks briefly or spams it or any of the shenanigans mentioned. The duration of the debuff can be adjusted longer or shorter as needed to balance it. Importantly, this has no effect on PvE whatsoever.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained