Recent Changes: A Few Observations

eviltwintwo

These are preliminary and subject to change.

Telekinetic Strike. I don't get it. What was wrong with Telekinetic Assault the way it was? Why was this change even needed? At any rate, TS is very low cost and equally low in damage (at least for a character that doesn't have the proper passive). TA was more flexible as a basic attack choice. And what is with the animation to Strike? Left hand, right hand, left hand--rinse repeat? Kind of unnatural-looking when going from strike-3 back to strike-1, though this is a preference thing only. But I have to wonder, who made the rule that only energy builders should look reasonable while switching hands? Couldn't that animation be modified for use with something like TS, maybe left hand/right hand/both hands? Still, this is just preference.

Ego Weaponry The basic 3-hit combo now hits more than one target. I once suggested that the 3rd hit do this, because you were spinning around to begin with, which would be like Might's Defensive Combo. All in all, though, I don't think this will get too many complaints, because heroes are generally outnumbered to begin with. Being able to focus on a tougher enemy while also hitting trash mobs could be good.

Ego Blade Frenzy Now a PBAoE. Not really necessary, as there are other cone melee attacks in the game. But this does help in dealing with being surrounded and (because you don't need a target with PBAoE's in this game) with invisible enemies. Viper weaklings, down. The animation hasn't been redone as of my test, so it still looks like a melee cone attack; I guess it doesn't really matter as long as everyone knows how it works. With Ego Weaponry being a cone now, it does prevent over-coning the set.

Telekinetic Assault Hmm. How did this need to be a tier 3 power? As I understand it (this may be outdated), its overall damage was lowered slightly when the scaling damage was replaced with steady damage. It still doesn't seem strong enough for a tier 3 power. I liked it as a tier one power because it was fairly cheap, fit a character concept or two, and you could move while maintaining it. It may be a while before I understand why this was moved to tier 3, that only encourages me to get something else.

As for the rest, some changes are good--stuff like dependency not affecting allies with 95%+ health if a lower-health ally is nearby is a good idea, though I wonder why it isn't AoE as weak as the heal actually is. (Or maybe I am underestimating it??) Others, like the lowered chance of ego leech on Ego Weaponry except with Ego Infusion doens't help the set, it just makes it less reliable. The advantage on EW (siphoning strikes) will now be delayed even more, and it already wasn't the best way to heal.

I'm divided on these changes, partly because I'm silver and haven't tried everything out in every way. How have they affected you guys so far??

aesica

Telekinetic Strike: This power isn't meant to be a damage-dealing power, but rather, it and others like it have taken on the role of building up [random crap] stacks and generating energy via forms and energy unlocks, which are then used by stronger powers. Why they didn't dedicate this functionality to the powers that are already low-damage and made to generate energy (energy builders) I have no idea. Guess they don't want you pressing 1 at all if they can help it.

Ego Blade Frenzy: While not necessary, it's a huge QoL improvement. 360 degree coverage > partial, cone-based coverage. This power also gained new advantages that make it a very good defensive option, including Eye of the Storm's scaling shield and, for the first time ever, a way to spam-stack Dependency.

Telekinetic Assault: For options, I imagine. Instead of being a junk power, being T3 means it becomes a viable damage power for everyone who's tired of the build-the-stacks-then-consume-the-stacks garbage that infests too many frameworks as it is.

Dependency: The heal may be weak individually, but keep these 2 things in mind: 2) It can affect multiple targets, and 2) it stacks up to 3 times per target. When built up on a large group of foes, it's quite powerful.

Siphoning Strikes: Remember that Ego Weaponry is a cone now, so if you're hitting 5 enemies and have a decent critical strike chance, you'll get some pretty solid self-healing. TK Strike, however, can only hit 1 target at a time, so for 3 advantage points, it's far less appealing.​​

eviltwintwo

I've never had a setup that could stack dependency on multiple targets, nor multiple stacks of dependency. While I don't mind after-effects on some powers, I think I agree with your "random crap" assessment. Building up puny pluses here and there doesn't fit my playstyle. (No offense to those who enjoy that sort of thing.)

You counted Telekinetic Assault as a junk power? I thought it was useful--to a degree. On certain builds/concepts, I prefer a maintain over a charge. (It was an option I'll miss.) At any rate, it's junk now. No way I'm waiting to tier 3 for it, unless I find out it's greatest thing since sliced bread, and I think you already know how likely that is.

I like how frenzy works now. I wasn't saying otherwise. Also, I wasn't claiming to have done anywhere near a complete test--I was only testing the base power. However, Eye of the Storm is one of my favorite dual-sword advantages, so the new advantage is definitely interesting.

Siphoning strikes...maybe, it's already a bit labor intensive to use as it depends on crit chance which can fail at a crucial moment not matter how high the crit chance is. Might try it, might not. Just so I know, have you tried it with the current changes??

EDIT: I do note that hitting multiple opponents does yield multiple crit chances, so there is that.

aesica

eviltwintwo wrote: »

I've never had a setup that could stack dependency on multiple targets, nor multiple stacks of dependency.

The only ways (unless I'm missing something) to apply Dependency is via Soul Vortex w/ advantage and Mental Leech, both of which AoE-apply it after their primary effects expire. That said, it's always been a really slow thing to build up until now, since both of those powers gate it behind cooldowns and the expiration of their effects. Being able to spam-apply stacks, potentially to full in a single maintain, is new and quite good.

eviltwintwo wrote: »

You counted Telekinetic Assault as a junk power? I thought it was useful--to a degree. On certain builds/concepts, I prefer a maintain over a charge. (It was an option I'll miss.) At any rate, it's junk now. No way I'm waiting to tier 3 for it, unless I find out it's greatest thing since sliced bread, and I think you already know how likely that is.

While I totally agree about preferring maintains over charges (or taps/combos), I was never a fan of TK assault because its damage was rather low. Now, it's a bit stronger and still good, but it's dependent on using another power to build up Ego Leech stacks for both its maximum damage output and to keep the energy unlock rolling.

eviltwintwo wrote: »

Siphoning strikes...maybe, it's already a bit labor intensive to use as it depends on crit chance which can fail at a crucial moment not matter how high the crit chance is. Might try it, might not. Just so I know, have you tried it with the current changes??

Yeah, it's not really reliable on single target which is why I'm not a fan of it on TK Assault, or even or Ego Weaponry vs just a single target. There's more reliable attack-and-heal options, such as Devour Essence or Lifedrain and its relatives. The character I tested with only had like 25% for crit chance and wasn't all that well-geared, but despite that, it was still quite good against groups of enemies. Someone optimized for heavy and frequent crits could get quite a lot out of it.​​

spinnytop

TK Assault is a high damage power with full mobility and long range. It's been begging to get nerfed or up-ranked forever.

eviltwintwo

spinnytop said:

TK Assault is a high damage power with full mobility and long range. It's been begging to get nerfed or up-ranked forever.

High damage? Are you specifically referring to using it in a build with TK passive/toggle or ranged damage toggle? When I used it on more supportive-type characters (admittedly few for a solo-dope like me), it didn't seem particularly strong, though it was definitely good for what I chose it for.

As for its mobility, you can also move while charging Sonic Arrow. Considering all the early powers that lock you in place while you're charging/maintaining, Telekinetic Assault's lack of movement lock was one of the main reasons I used it on any character I used it on. Used it while running away (or in circles), used it while approaching (one less minion to worry about or stronger enemy weakened).

I'm not convinced about the move to tier 3. I found its damage to be neither weak nor overpowering, though I admit that may have to do with the way I play.

What kind of characters have you used Telekinetic Assault on?

sterga

Mixed bag. The best part is TK Fireworks (barrage?). I did say we should have fireworks power but not lame. You can Dazzle your way to Sentinel Mastery with it, similar to Flamethrower but without needing a second power to raise the chance to 100% proc.

TK Assault is in a long line of powers that get bumped from low tier to high. And then a new low tier attack is put in it's place. Seems dumb. Why not just put a new power in the high tier? Also TK Assault gets bonus damage per leech stack, but the set is kinda about the ruptures for spike damage. Then you have Soul Beam in Sorcery that has a bonus damage mechanic that is super easy to set up and keep up all the time. Kinda just makes me wonder why bother doing some of this silly nonsense when a simpler approach works fine. Seems like "complexity" for the sake of it and not adding anything interesting.​​

spinnytop

eviltwintwo said:

spinnytop said:

TK Assault is a high damage power with full mobility and long range. It's been begging to get nerfed or up-ranked forever.

High damage? Are you specifically referring to using it in a build with TK passive/toggle or ranged damage toggle? When I used it on more supportive-type characters (admittedly few for a solo-dope like me), it didn't seem particularly strong, though it was definitely good for what I chose it for.

What kind of characters have you used Telekinetic Assault on?

Well yes, if you use a power on a support character it's not going to seem like it does a lot of damage... because you're using it on a support character. I use it on a TK dps character where the synergies are all in place, which is where you see the real potential of the power.

eviltwintwo said:

As for its mobility, you can also move while charging Sonic Arrow. Considering all the early powers that lock you in place while you're charging/maintaining, Telekinetic Assault's lack of movement lock was one of the main reasons I used it on any character I used it on. Used it while running away (or in circles), used it while approaching (one less minion to worry about or stronger enemy weakened).

Not really sure of the point you're making when you mention that you can move while charging Sonic Arrow.

Otherwise you give some good examples of why TK Assault's mobility is a big deal, especially when combined with its high damage output and long range.

eviltwintwo said:

I'm not convinced about the move to tier 3. I found its damage to be neither weak nor overpowering, though I admit that may have to do with the way I play.

Did you find its damage to be equal to Blast powers? Because that's the tier it used to be on... the Blast power tier. I do nearly 5k dps with TK Assault - that pretty nuts when you consider the other powers that occupy the tier it used to be in, especially when combined with 100 range and full mobility. ( Oh and don't worry, PBR and LA are likely to see the same treatment when the Gadgeteering and Electric passes roll around since they don't do Blast damage either ).

aesica

sterga wrote: »

Seems like "complexity" for the sake of it and not adding anything interesting.

This pretty much sums up most of CO's framework mechanics. I can't help but wonder how much better the servers might perform with large concentrations of people in a given area if the number of random buffs and debuffs players were applying, removing, and having tick every few seconds was pruned to more reasonable levels.​​

violetnychus

gradii said:

Power tiers make no sense and need to go away. Ultimates can still be limited to one per build though.​​

This yes

spinnytop

Pesky game mechanics!

darqaura2

gradii said:

Power tiers make no sense and need to go away. Ultimates can still be limited to one per build though.​​

They tried that in Alpha and it was a balancing disaster. i don't see them removing power tiers anytime soon.

aesica

darqaura2 wrote: »

They tried that in Alpha and it was a balancing disaster. i don't see them removing power tiers anytime soon.

They must've done something horribly wrong then, because other games manage it just fine. That said, you're probably right, as there's a lot of powers and I don't think this team is big enough to handle would would essentially be an overhaul of the power system.

We'll just have to live with tier 0 being mostly trash, tier 1 being utility and weak aoe, tier 2 being slightly-stronger aoe and trash single target, and tier 3 being strong single target.​​

markhawkman

Enh.. it's kinda like how spells work in Final Fantasy.

aesica

markhawkman wrote: »

Enh.. it's kinda like how spells work in Final Fantasy.

If you mean the classic RPGs, with varying levels of spells like Fire, Fira, Firaga, Firaja, etc, a single player game is a different type of beast. You don't choose to learn either Fire or Firaga but rather, characters gain access to each one as they progress through the game. While the same argument could be made for T0, T1, T2, and T3 powers, there's some rather big differences:

Single player FF game: You don't typically reach max level (and thus, get the best spells) until you begin nearing the end of the game.

CO: Reaching max level is often seen as just the start and the player will typically do a lot more with their max-level character.

Single player FF game: You don't choose between "Fire" or "Firaga." As you progress through the game, they unlock and are typically useful up until you gain access to the next best version.

CO: Choosing that T0 power takes up a slot that could've been occupied with something stronger. If T0 is Fire, T1 Fira, T2 Firaga, and T3 Firaja:

• Right at level 1, you can learn Fira (T1), rendering Fire (T0) useless almost immediately.
• At level 8, you've got Firaga (T2). Level 8 happens very quickly.
• At level 14, you've already got the best spell--Firaja (T3)

​​

theravenforce

eviltwintwo said:

These are preliminary and subject to change.

Telekinetic Strike. I don't get it. What was wrong with Telekinetic Assault the way it was? Why was this change even needed? At any rate, TS is very low cost and equally low in damage (at least for a character that doesn't have the proper passive). TA was more flexible as a basic attack choice. And what is with the animation to Strike? Left hand, right hand, left hand--rinse repeat? Kind of unnatural-looking when going from strike-3 back to strike-1, though this is a preference thing only. But I have to wonder, who made the rule that only energy builders should look reasonable while switching hands? Couldn't that animation be modified for use with something like TS, maybe left hand/right hand/both hands? Still, this is just preference.

As others have mentioned...Telekinetic Assault, had the potential to become pretty ridiculous in terms of damage, especially for being such a starter power. There are several other powers still in game which have a similar escalating formula which in time, will be brought in line like Telekinetic Assault was, hopefully just upgraded to Tier 3 though.

But going back to Telekinetic Assault, it was eventually going to have something done to it. I'm actually glad that this has been the outcome so far, as I expected much MUCH MUCH worse.

Initially I was not a fan of Telekinetic Assault being changed, because there was literally nothing to replace it. Telekinetic Strike's addition is quite welcome, in my opinion.

It allows players to keep the initial movement that Telekinetic Assault offered, as well as decent damage and low cost. So aside from some maybe not liking the animation...? There's not much to complain about there.

I do agree the VFX it throws out could have been a bit more fun, but anyone who was following the changes on the PTS, would know that the power was created quite late in the review of the set, so there was likely not too much time to polish things. Still, the throwing psychokinetic blades fits with what TK has historically done, so it's not completely out of place.

eviltwintwo said:

Ego Weaponry The basic 3-hit combo now hits more than one target. I once suggested that the 3rd hit do this, because you were spinning around to begin with, which would be like Might's Defensive Combo. All in all, though, I don't think this will get too many complaints, because heroes are generally outnumbered to begin with. Being able to focus on a tougher enemy while also hitting trash mobs could be good.

Again, there's not much to complain about here, it's done pretty well for itself with this update.

eviltwintwo said:

Ego Blade Frenzy Now a PBAoE. Not really necessary, as there are other cone melee attacks in the game. But this does help in dealing with being surrounded and (because you don't need a target with PBAoE's in this game) with invisible enemies. Viper weaklings, down. The animation hasn't been redone as of my test, so it still looks like a melee cone attack; I guess it doesn't really matter as long as everyone knows how it works. With Ego Weaponry being a cone now, it does prevent over-coning the set.

I've always wanted Ego Blade Frenzy to be an Ego Blade version of Eye of the Storm and now with some advantage taking, it can emulate that to some extent, something which I'm very grateful for personally.

Ego Blade Frenzy being made into a PBAoE is good, as the animation 'kinda' fits...?



I understand what you mean, but I do think in some ways, it's better off as a PBAoE ability. Very useful when surrounded.

eviltwintwo said:

Telekinetic Assault Hmm. How did this need to be a tier 3 power? As I understand it (this may be outdated), its overall damage was lowered slightly when the scaling damage was replaced with steady damage. It still doesn't seem strong enough for a tier 3 power. I liked it as a tier one power because it was fairly cheap, fit a character concept or two, and you could move while maintaining it. It may be a while before I understand why this was moved to tier 3, that only encourages me to get something else.

As previously mentioned...and likely stated by other posters...its damage potential kinda warranted that. Right now, it can easily do what I'd assume to be tier 3 worthy damage without too much input, specializing for it, would likely take it up to 4k on crit per tick I'd assume.

The self root was removed so you can still take it and move around.

I am quite a fan of Telekinetic Assault, so despite it not strictly having much use on my build...I've taken it, it's damaging and works when I don't feel like I want to do spike damage.

eviltwintwo said:

As for the rest, some changes are good--stuff like dependency not affecting allies with 95%+ health if a lower-health ally is nearby is a good idea, though I wonder why it isn't AoE as weak as the heal actually is. (Or maybe I am underestimating it??) Others, like the lowered chance of ego leech on Ego Weaponry except with Ego Infusion doens't help the set, it just makes it less reliable. The advantage on EW (siphoning strikes) will now be delayed even more, and it already wasn't the best way to heal.

I'm divided on these changes, partly because I'm silver and haven't tried everything out in every way. How have they affected you guys so far??

Dependency adjustment was very useful thanks to some new tech that was utilized!

As for Ego Leech...honestly...it is still easy to stack and rupturing does provide a useful benefit, as the buff duration from Ego Infusion will provide you with stacks.

Ego Leech has just been changed slightly to reward rupturing. I do wish something similar was added to a few other sets, but others may vehemently disagree there.

I'm not seeing the delay on Siphoning Strikes which you mention, can you elaborate on that?

Overall the Telekinesis Review / Update has been very very positive and I have been completely and pleasantly surprised by it. Which is a nice and overdue change, especially for Cryptic's history with handling (or rather manhandling) Mentalist sets, which is why I was dreading this review before I tested changes.

There will always be disappointments (see Telekinetic Maelstrom's VFX adjustment), but I think with this...a lot of feedback was taken on board, considered and in some cases implemented.

theravenforce

aesica said:

Dependency: The heal may be weak individually, but keep these 2 things in mind: 2) It can affect multiple targets, and 2) it stacks up to 3 times per target. When built up on a large group of foes, it's quite powerful.

​​

Just to clear this up....

Dependency can only heal one ally below 95% HP at a time. It does not produce a fountain of HP for all nearby allies like it used to back in 2013 on PTS (early stages)

markhawkman

aesica said:

CO: Choosing that T0 power takes up a slot that could've been occupied with something stronger. If T0 is Fire, T1 Fira, T2 Firaga, and T3 Firaja:

• Right at level 1, you can learn Fira (T1), rendering Fire (T0) useless almost immediately.
• At level 8, you've got Firaga (T2). Level 8 happens very quickly.
• At level 14, you've already got the best spell--Firaja (T3)

​​

Oh, please, you know full well that you wouldn't get Firaja at a level that low in any game.

avianos

The creation of TK Strike was because people didn't liked the idea of TK Assault getting downgraded into Utility (which means losing damage)

So DEVs took the feedback and created TK Strike while buffing TK Assault and making it a Tier 3
and honestly TK Strike is meant to be used for Ego Leech stacking and Stress Debuff, with the right rotation of powers you won't have to use it again in a boss battle

yeah the visuals are underwelming, yeah Combo range powers sucks, but what to do? It's great for utility alone

As for Ego Blade Frenzy, it was a GREAT change that it was made into a PBAoE, but it takes me a little to get used to it since it roots you now​​

aesica

markhawkman wrote: »

Oh, please, you know full well that you wouldn't get Firaja at a level that low in any game.

Of course not, but my point was that you can access T3 powers quite early in the leveling process--14 if you stick to a single framework or 20 at the latest if you pick and choose across multiple frameworks. Point being: Tiers are garbage in this game and should go away. ​​

spinnytop

T0 powers are generally quite useful for their utility. Sure they're not powerful on their own, but they're not meant to be. Every single one of my builds has a T0 power in it that is immensely important to the build however, and I know I'm not alone on that. Many T0 powers are even quite useful on their own - not for their damage, but for something else they do. It all comes down to how you think about your powers, and your ability to recognize not just the obvious synergies, but also the more subtle ones.

eviltwintwo

Just some replies/clarifications:

spinnytop said:

Well yes, if you use a power on a support character it's not going to seem like it does a lot of damage... because you're using it on a support character. I use it on a TK dps character where the synergies are all in place, which is where you see the real potential of the power.

Not really sure of the point you're making when you mention that you can move while charging Sonic Arrow.

Otherwise you give some good examples of why TK Assault's mobility is a big deal, especially when combined with its high damage output and long range.

Did you find its damage to be equal to Blast powers? Because that's the tier it used to be on... the Blast power tier. I do nearly 5k dps with TK Assault - that pretty nuts when you consider the other powers that occupy the tier it used to be in, especially when combined with 100 range and full mobility. ( Oh and don't worry, PBR and LA are likely to see the same treatment when the Gadgeteering and Electric passes roll around since they don't do Blast damage either ).

I do have a damaging character that used Telekinetic Assault as a ranged power, but the damage didn't seem to be quite up to that done by Ego Weaponry. Also, Ego Weaponry had a a minimum of 1 stack of ego leech per combo, whereas Telekinetic Assault could go through an entire maintain without even one; I found it a little horrible by comparison and preferred to close in and use the ego sword. Because I was a damage character, Ego Reverberation only really mattered in melee because of TA's lower ability to generate ego leech (and therefore energy).

Well, that stuff was pre-change, so it doesn't matter anymore, but that's where I was comparing damage. It may not be excessively accurate because I never ran the numbers. Also, FYI, I never used telekinetic sword powers until within the last six months, so I never became an expert on the TK set. My observations aren't meant to be taken too strongly.

I mentioned Sonic Arrow because you can move while charging it, just as you can move while maintaining Telekinetic Assault. I like to be able to move while charging/maintaining. I wish more powers allowed it. And similar to TA, I consider Sonic Arrow to have starter-power damage even though it isn't immediately available for characters that aren't total-archery heroes. (I also understand you might disagree with that, as you do with some of my statements on Telekinetic Assault. My opinion is just my opinion and nothing more.)

As for the damage being equal to blast powers...hmmm...I don't know that I care too much about that. There are several ways some characters can outdamage others using the same or similar or similar-tiered powers. (VARIETY!!) As a tier 0 power that was a maintain and had mobility, it was an option I enjoyed having. And charge powers can lose damage via interrupts, whereas click-only or maintain powers will get damage through prior to the interrupt. (Not the most important thing in the world, but still a facet I considered when choosing or not choosing this ability.)

theravenforce said:

As others have mentioned...Telekinetic Assault, had the potential to become pretty ridiculous in terms of damage, especially for being such a starter power. There are several other powers still in game which have a similar escalating formula which in time, will be brought in line like Telekinetic Assault was, hopefully just upgraded to Tier 3 though.

Telekinetic Strike's addition is quite welcome, in my opinion.

It allows players to keep the initial movement that Telekinetic Assault offered, as well as decent damage and low cost. So aside from some maybe not liking the animation...? There's not much to complain about there.

about Ego Weaponry--> Again, there's not much to complain about here, it's done pretty well for itself with this update.

I've always wanted Ego Blade Frenzy to be an Ego Blade version of Eye of the Storm and now with some advantage taking, it can emulate that to some extent, something which I'm very grateful for personally.

I understand what you mean, but I do think in some ways, it's better off as a PBAoE ability. Very useful when surrounded.

about Telekinetic Assault--> As previously mentioned...and likely stated by other posters...its damage potential kinda warranted that. Right now, it can easily do what I'd assume to be tier 3 worthy damage without too much input, specializing for it, would likely take it up to 4k on crit per tick I'd assume.

As for Ego Leech...honestly...it is still easy to stack and rupturing does provide a useful benefit, as the buff duration from Ego Infusion will provide you with stacks.

Ego Leech has just been changed slightly to reward rupturing. I do wish something similar was added to a few other sets, but others may vehemently disagree there.

I'm not seeing the delay on Siphoning Strikes which you mention, can you elaborate on that?

Overall the Telekinesis Review / Update has been very very positive and I have been completely and pleasantly surprised by it. Which is a nice and overdue change, especially for Cryptic's history with handling (or rather manhandling) Mentalist sets, which is why I was dreading this review before I tested changes.

What you said about Telekinetic Assault makes me wonder why they didn't just lower the damage a bit. But, their choice. At any rate, whether I end up liking it or hating it, you're certainly allowed to have you own view of it. I'll figure out whether I 'spoke too soon' about it eventually.

Unfortunately, it may take even more time for me to warm up to Telekinetic Strike. So far I find it next to useless, with barely-above-energy-builder damage. Again, if you disagree that's fine. I like the fact that the game has different options for different players. And, as I pointed out at the beginning (and I cut and paste), "These are preliminary and subject to change."

Also, please note this: Sometimes I do complain about certain animations in this game, but that is meant from the start to be a back-burner complaint. If the power works as it should and I like it, I'll still use it. I hate the float-off-the ground effect of Rebuke, but I use the power even on a freeform or two because the power is otherwise very good. The animations are not a primary, or even a secondary issue. They are tertiary, last place and least important. Cool animations are awesome, but not absolutely required.

I like the multi-hit aspect given to Telekinetic Weaponry. I mentioned that I thought that the third hit (the spin) should have been AoE from the start. All three hits being multi-target is even better.

Er, did I ever actually say I preferred Ego Blade Frenzy as a cone? No, I don't think so. Given a choice between a cone and a PBAoE with similar damage potential, I'll take the PBAoE every time. You repeated what I said about being surrounded; there are also invisible enemies to consider (even if weak, they're still annoying). We agree completely on this, it's a change for the better. I said it wasn't necessary; I never said it was unwelcome. And the animation can be fixed later if Cryptic chooses to.

What you said about Telekinetic Assault having Tier 3 damage makes me wonder why so many Tier 3 powers are so underwhelming. Oh, well, on the plus side maybe now there is actually a Tier 3 power worth taking. (NOTE: If you like certain Tier 3 damaging powers, don't take this as an insult--the jab was meant for Cryptic, not other players.)

I have found that, even before the changes, I wasn't a fan of how ego leech worked. Maybe I'll change my mind later, maybe I won't. Naturally, no one is required to share my opinion on this. To each their own.

The delay I mentioned was not specifically for Ego Weaponry, however, even the old way you were only guaranteed a leech on the third strike of the combo. I found this a bit slow, which may be more me than the power itself. Reducing the % chance of gaining it is not changing my mind. It was even worse with Telekinetic Assault, because its ego leech application chance was too low to begin with; of course this no longer matters with the changes.

And finally, I'm glad you like the changes. I like some of them myself, but even if I totally detested them all, I wouldn't be the only person to consider, now would I?

eviltwintwo

So some of you mentioned how other powers with increasing damage during the maintain might be due for a nerf. I sincerely hope not, no more nerfing please. (Though note, I haven't stated that Telekinetic Assault has been "officially" nerfed.)

Lightning arc needs to stay exactly how it is. Though replacing it with Chain Lightning might have some utility, I worry about how shoving another power in will affect The Tempest. The electric set seems to be well thought out, I don't want it skewered just the devs can say they've done something, regardless of the accuracy of that statement.

NOTE: There is one and only one thing I might change about Lightning Arc: I'd take the bounce off so it's a true single-target power. Hitting a second target randomly is occasionally useful, but rarely necessary, or so I would say at this time.

Then there's Frost Breath. It doesn't need changes either. It' a breath power, and it does exactly what a breath power is supposed to do. If they move this up to tier 3, they'll move all breath powers to tier 3, and that would be stupid. It would take away leveling speed and options. And (despite my half-joking statement about tier 3 powers earlier [I was mainly talking about single-target powers to begin with]) the ice set already has a tier 3 masterpiece in Avalanche.

kallethen

Damage on TK Strike does seem to be less, but it can easily build Ego Leech stacks for my TK Lance and the Stress debuff since I took the advantage. Basically it has more utility at the cost of less damage. And since Ego Infusion from TK Lance guarantees Ego Leech, I can toss out more TK Lances with full Ego Leech stacks in quick succession.

TK Strike is wimpy on it's own. But it sets up TK Lance to be BRUTAL. Especially if I crit. What we have is more synergy.​​

eviltwintwo

kallethen said:

Damage on TK Strike does seem to be less, but it can easily build Ego Leech stacks for my TK Lance and the Stress debuff since I took the advantage. Basically it has more utility at the cost of less damage. And since Ego Infusion from TK Lance guarantees Ego Leech, I can toss out more TK Lances with full Ego Leech stacks in quick succession.



TK Strike is wimpy on it's own. But it sets up TK Lance to be BRUTAL. Especially if I crit. What we have is more synergy.​​

Interesting. Not sure I personally would have fun with all that setup, but maybe I'll try it and find out I like it. If I don't like it after all--well, like I said above, I'm not the only player in the game.

revanantmorituri

kallethen said:

Damage on TK Strike does seem to be less, but it can easily build Ego Leech stacks for my TK Lance and the Stress debuff since I took the advantage. Basically it has more utility at the cost of less damage. And since Ego Infusion from TK Lance guarantees Ego Leech, I can toss out more TK Lances with full Ego Leech stacks in quick succession.



TK Strike is wimpy on it's own. But it sets up TK Lance to be BRUTAL. Especially if I crit. What we have is more synergy.​​

What may have gone untested isn't how TK Strike feeds more dangerous followup powers, but how well if functions as your primary single target attack as you level up through Westside.

theravenforce

eviltwintwo said:

What you said about Telekinetic Assault makes me wonder why they didn't just lower the damage a bit. But, their choice. At any rate, whether I end up liking it or hating it, you're certainly allowed to have you own view of it. I'll figure out whether I 'spoke too soon' about it eventually.

I will admit, as I think I pointed out earlier and others have said, it now doesn't strictly have a "function" it's literally like some other powers in other sets which are just additional ways to damage enemies.

eviltwintwo said:

Unfortunately, it may take even more time for me to warm up to Telekinetic Strike. So far I find it next to useless, with barely-above-energy-builder damage. Again, if you disagree that's fine. I like the fact that the game has different options for different players. And, as I pointed out at the beginning (and I cut and paste), "These are preliminary and subject to change."

Also, please note this: Sometimes I do complain about certain animations in this game, but that is meant from the start to be a back-burner complaint. If the power works as it should and I like it, I'll still use it. I hate the float-off-the ground effect of Rebuke, but I use the power even on a freeform or two because the power is otherwise very good. The animations are not a primary, or even a secondary issue. They are tertiary, last place and least important. Cool animations are awesome, but not absolutely required.

Again, I am using most of the TK changes from a high offense build perspective (basically DPS builds, ranged DPS & melee DPS), so my perception of how well they are doing is vastly different to how others are able to use it.

TK Strike's DPS is probably comparable to Infernal Supernatural's Lash ability but I haven't tested it.

I will agree and say I can't really imagine leveling with it, however, with early access to Telekinetic Burst, it could do alright.

eviltwintwo said:

I like the multi-hit aspect given to Telekinetic Weaponry. I mentioned that I thought that the third hit (the spin) should have been AoE from the start. All three hits being multi-target is even better.

Er, did I ever actually say I preferred Ego Blade Frenzy as a cone? No, I don't think so. Given a choice between a cone and a PBAoE with similar damage potential, I'll take the PBAoE every time. You repeated what I said about being surrounded; there are also invisible enemies to consider (even if weak, they're still annoying). We agree completely on this, it's a change for the better. I said it wasn't necessary; I never said it was unwelcome. And the animation can be fixed later if Cryptic chooses to.

Actually, I took the opportunity to respond to you, to also express my opinions on the different powers raised, so yes, we did agree on Ego Blade Frenzy which is why our thoughts are similar here.

I don't think the animation necessarily needs to be "fixed", mostly because any "fix" to it, would likely see it operating like Ego Blade Pandemonium Ult.

eviltwintwo said:

What you said about Telekinetic Assault having Tier 3 damage makes me wonder why so many Tier 3 powers are so underwhelming. Oh, well, on the plus side maybe now there is actually a Tier 3 power worth taking. (NOTE: If you like certain Tier 3 damaging powers, don't take this as an insult--the jab was meant for Cryptic, not other players.)

Maybe that will change given time. I agree there are definitely abilities which when you look at them you wonder why on earth they are Tier 3 *looks at Defile*

eviltwintwo said:

I have found that, even before the changes, I wasn't a fan of how ego leech worked. Maybe I'll change my mind later, maybe I won't. Naturally, no one is required to share my opinion on this. To each their own.

The delay I mentioned was not specifically for Ego Weaponry, however, even the old way you were only guaranteed a leech on the third strike of the combo. I found this a bit slow, which may be more me than the power itself. Reducing the % chance of gaining it is not changing my mind. It was even worse with Telekinetic Assault, because its ego leech application chance was too low to begin with; of course this no longer matters with the changes.

I think you have gotten mixed up with "Siphoning Strikes Advantage" and "Ego Leech". Your original post stated that:

eviltwintwo said:

The advantage on EW (siphoning strikes) will now be delayed even more, and it already wasn't the best way to heal.

Which is why I asked about the delay you mentioned...

--

But yeah, with every change that comes...I find that this one surprisingly has panned out a lot better than it could have all things considered.

shadowzero66

eviltwintwo said:

I mentioned Sonic Arrow because you can move while charging it, just as you can move while maintaining Telekinetic Assault. I like to be able to move while charging/maintaining. I wish more powers allowed it. And similar to TA, I consider Sonic Arrow to have starter-power damage even though it isn't immediately available for characters that aren't total-archery heroes. (I also understand you might disagree with that, as you do with some of my statements on Telekinetic Assault. My opinion is just my opinion and nothing more.)

As a note, mobile 100 ft. range charge attacks is Archery's gimmick. Other powersets may have it, but not to the extent as Archery. I suspect mobility is considered when balancing a power. Hypothetically speaking, would you be fine with adding mobility at the expense of range, damage, and/or cost?

eviltwintwo

shadowzero66 said:

eviltwintwo said:

I mentioned Sonic Arrow because you can move while charging it, just as you can move while maintaining Telekinetic Assault. I like to be able to move while charging/maintaining. I wish more powers allowed it. And similar to TA, I consider Sonic Arrow to have starter-power damage even though it isn't immediately available for characters that aren't total-archery heroes. (I also understand you might disagree with that, as you do with some of my statements on Telekinetic Assault. My opinion is just my opinion and nothing more.)

As a note, mobile 100 ft. range charge attacks is Archery's gimmick. Other powersets may have it, but not to the extent as Archery. I suspect mobility is considered when balancing a power. Hypothetically speaking, would you be fine with adding mobility at the expense of range, damage, and/or cost?

Hmmm...I'm gonna say no. Most powers that fit this aspect of the discussion seem to be about right on range, damage and cost (using my opinion only here). I really haven't liked being locked in place by powers since City of Heroes, which I played from 2007-2012. (NOTE: CO from 2013-present.) I didn't like it then, I don't like it now. It's too "old" a way of doing things for my taste. Again, that's just my personal view.

At any rate, when tapping a charge power, it usually doesn't hinder your movement too much, and repeated taps can do enough damage to move things along until you're out of the energy-draining smoke or whatever you're trying to move out of. I really don't think the movement lock on charges is really all that bad because of that, it's not a primary concern at all. I just think it would be better if we could move while fighting, that's all.

As for maintains, well let's consider The Tempest, since it's an AT that I like. Lighting Arc, the starter power, locks you in place while you maintain it. Against small groups this is not a problem because the Tempest is a damage archetype, and trash mobs understandably melt under its assault. However, there are times when you aren't fighting a small group, or you need to move out of a debuff. With the Tempest, I've found that I can use other powers as clicks while I move, then return to using Lightning Arc when it is safe to do so. I'd still like the option of moving while maintaining it though, it's an awesome power.

On the other hand, I also now have the option to use Lightning Storm in place of Lightning Arc when there's more than one target. Lightning Storm also locks you in place, but that actually makes some sense. It's a higher-tier power which hits a fairly large area (15-foot sphere, I believe). Considering the mental and physical effects that would have (if CO heroes were real), the movement lock doesn't bother me at all.

spinnytop

eviltwintwo said:

There are several ways some characters can outdamage others using the same or similar or similar-tiered powers. (VARIETY!!)

Huge power gaps don't lead to variety. They lead to dominant strategy.

sterga

"I don't think the animation necessarily needs to be "fixed", mostly because any "fix" to it, would likely see it operating like Ego Blade Pandemonium Ult."

That would be awesome. Path of Exile has a Blade Vortex skill that is basically swords circling around you. Spinning up a bunch of blades and mowing over everything is endless fun for the whole family.

"Hypothetically speaking, would you be fine with adding mobility at the expense of range, damage, and/or cost?"

No, because it's 2017 and this is an action game. Being able to move and attack things is more fun. That's "being able to move" not "being forced to move" or "being moved by force". Fun is also an important consideration for powers. If channeling magic required so much concentration that moving wasn't doable, every mage ever would be thwarted by someone walking up behind them and bashing their skull in.​​

jellycupsowbug

Dependency gets me over 1k hps once I get it stacked. That's pretty good for an auto-targeting hot, especially when you're controlled or you've got your hands too full to actively heal.

Granted, that's with a healer, but I think a dps would probably get about 360 hps, which is better than any other hot that I can think of.

spinnytop

sterga said:

No, because it's 2017 and this is an action game.

That means nothing. I know plenty of action games that have attacks that root the player, even in the amazing year of 2017!

darqaura2

spinnytop said:

sterga said:

No, because it's 2017 and this is an action game.

That means nothing. I know plenty of action games that have attacks that root the player, even in the amazing year of 2017!

Maybe it's the type of games that I play but I've never minded some attacks rooting me in place, since there were always others that don't. Even COH's rooting wasn't that bad and it too had attacks (few) that did not root you in place.

markhawkman

gradii said:

spinnytop wrote: »

No, because it's 2017 and this is an action game.

That means nothing. I know plenty of action games that have attacks that root the player, even in the amazing year of 2017!

Then they have no business calling themselves "Action" games.​​I dunnno, I think more info is needed than just that...

spinnytop

gradii said:

Then they have no business calling themselves "Action" games.​​

They actually have some very lucrative business calling themselves that

eviltwintwo

spinnytop said:

eviltwintwo said:

There are several ways some characters can outdamage others using the same or similar or similar-tiered powers. (VARIETY!!)

Huge power gaps don't lead to variety. They lead to dominant strategy.

I wasn't assuming "huge" power gaps, but good point.

pantagruel01

eviltwintwo said:

I wasn't assuming "huge" power gaps, but good point.

Assuming sets don't have identical mechanics, there will always be some with an advantage, but ideally the advantage is situational rather than absolute.

spinnytop

eviltwintwo said:

I wasn't assuming "huge" power gaps, but good point.

Given that the topic was T0 powers, and we have top end dps powers residing in there alongside some of the lowest dps powers in the game, that is something that should be assumed