The problem with the way Cosmic rewards work is that you don't need to be good to get a reward -- you just need other people to be good. If you expect everyone in a fight to be good, you do the fight as invite-only instanced content (or you get really clever with your scoring algorithm, but evaluating whether people were useful is not trivial).
What if you don't expect everyone to be good, but you expect 10-15 people to be good. (instead of 3-5)
"being good" = doing significantly more than the minimum...either dealing way more than their own share of the damage/healing or filling another crucial role.
For me "Eido" is just shorthand for everything leading up to the final battle.
But, be that as it may, the Qzone is largely abandoned now. Most times I check there are only a couple people there. Of course, this is also the case with Lemuria and Vibora Bay, but those are much older content. Maybe the Devs are done with Qzone and are moving on, with no looking back. I'm really just curious about their intent. I imagine it must be frustrating to put a lot of work into something that people end up not using.
There isn't much in VB or Lemuria to do, though.
Comparing a lack of people participating in a GCR-earning endeavor to a lack of people hanging out in Lemuria is just not a fair comparison.
It doesn't particularly help with the increasing brand of well...toxicity (likely borne out of frustration due to specific requirements for fights) that seems to be around within the community.
I've seen new level 40 players who want to join in Cosmics effectively get told to get gone because they are dragging everyone down...that isn't exactly an encouraging message to send out (yes, they were hybrid users).
This isn't entirely the toxic players fault, I think if some cosmics and Eidolon was less obnoxious to deal with, there'd be less problem.
Just to get this out of the way, I have been taking a break. Now that shouldn't be holding anyone up from taking out the Eidolon because I was not, am not, and do not expect to be one of the "leets". I know, or at least knew, the fights, but I was not min-maxxed out to carry a bunch of people.
That out of the way, the question becomes "At what level should the end-game content be tuned?".
If they tune it for the best of the best then everyone else is just left behind. Might those players be able to become better? Sure. Might it require changing their character build to get there? Well, also yes.
And this is a potential sticking point. Part of the appeal is making the hero *YOU* want. If that hero isn't very good, then that means that they don't help when they show up for endgame stuff, no matter how much you might like them, though. Make them better and they may lose some of what made them who they were, though.
On the other hand, make it too easy and the leets are raking in GCR hand over fist and a few weeks after being released, they have all of the perks and gear from the new cosmic.
So should there maybe be some more easily doable time-gated GCR content that offers rewards at a lower rate?
No, this would never earn you Eidolon kills so you couldn't use this to get those costume pieces, but it would be a way to earn GCR at a lesser rate and obtain GCR stuff without having to sacrifice what you think your character should be.
All that said? Unless your AT is locked in hybrid stance, for any top-end stuff people should consider one of the specialized stances.
My fire freeeform has a defense and offense passive. If I am doing solo stuff I can switch to the hybrid or even defense stance if needed, but for team content I go offense. It doesn't sacrifice who my character is or anything like that, but it does help the team get the job done.
The anti-hybrid folks can be a little too aggressive in their attacks, but this is an issue with development. I simply do not think that they can balance the game that they made with hybrids in the mix.
It's not the players' fault, but it's not the fault of the other people that hybrids are not great team players, either. They maybe could use some work on their social skills, but the core sentiment is mostly correct: Hybrids add to the failure rate of cosmic fights.
They do not tank as well as a "real" tank, they do not deal the same damage as a "real" DPSer, and they do not heal to the same degree that a "real" healer does.
And this is a potential sticking point. Part of the appeal is making the hero *YOU* want. If that hero isn't very good, then that means that they don't help when they show up for endgame stuff, no matter how much you might like them, though. Make them better and they may lose some of what made them who they were, though.
Here is the real problem, many people think that means that you can make the hero YOU want and win everything. BUT, that's not what the box says. The box says you can make the hero you want because they give you more freedom in your power selections than most games. There is no guarantee that every build will be great at everything.
I really want to make a character that is mostly lunges. Just bounce from one enemy to another. I think it would be hilarious. Not very effective, but fun. Would I take that to a Cosmic? Of course not. Would be fun in regular content, though. But, my lava nymph who escaped Vulcan's slave pits and destroyed Pompeii? Yeah, she does cosmics like a boss. Would I run her through regular content? Not likely, it's too boring.
As far as theme goes, ALL heroes' theme should be to beat the bad guy. If that means upgrading your gear, then you do so. When Batman went to fight Superman, did Bats show up in his Bat-underoos? No. He made himself a Bat-tle suit and found some Kryptonite. While in armor was he still Batman? Durn straight he was. Maybe he was not the sneaky spooky Batman that he normally used, but he was the Batman to win, which is what Batman is REALLY about.
So, people need to quit whining about their theme and do what Batman did, whatever you need to win. Sure, you can still keep your keystone power or two (I have a Might tank with Ego Sprites), but back them up with something with some smackdown to it. Because, as a hero, your theme should always be to win.
- - - - -
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
I really hate to break it to you but this is how rewards in every successful MMO work. You clear, everyone gets rewards no exceptions.
Most top-end raids in MMOs include the ability to exclude unwanted players (including, though not limited to, low skill or poorly equipped). If you don't include that ability, the skill cap for raids is necessarily lower.
Just making the point that eventually devs stop putting time into certain content, for whatever reason, and move on to something new. It seems that Eido has reached that point. There have been no communications from the devs that they have any intent to revisit the Qzone/Eido. So, apparently it is what it is and will be mostly unused content.
Most MMOs also are balanced enough that a properly geared character when played properly is always able to contribute enough to clear content, and don't make obtaining that level of gear too painful.
Trying to put raids in the open world is a recipe for failure as well. you simply wont be able to both provide a good challenge and satisfying, fun, gameplay. it will more likely than not end up punishing and crude.
I tend to agree, but that's what the cosmics are trying to do.
Just making the point that eventually devs stop putting time into certain content, for whatever reason, and move on to something new. It seems that Eido has reached that point. There have been no communications from the devs that they have any intent to revisit the Qzone/Eido. So, apparently it is what it is and will be mostly unused content.
It's not well judged, as a zone. It's difficult to get to, horribly purple, and the missions are designed to kick players in the teeth from the outset. The last time they went and had a power pass and I had a free retcon I redesigned a character to be what I thought would work (according to rumour, anyway). Defensive passive, wardicator, debuffs, skewed towards criticals for damage spikes. And it worked, up to a point. The point being that they'd tweaked it to make it harder, so soloing even the first mission wasn't really possible - surviving was achieveable, but doing enough damage before things respawned (with my emphasis on defence) wasn't. So.... off to another game I go. There's a world of choice out there, and working out and grinding for the enhanced-difficulty end game of CO isn't high on the list of fun things to do, any more. Maybe if it went back to the original difficulty level I might feel it worth a go. But they won't, so I don't.
Yes but I've played these other mmos and never had much trouble reaching the minimum requirement. Climbing the gear and raid ladder in these games was never painful.
You can do anything in this game, except maybe Eido, with blues. People who use max gear and builds at cosmics are carrying 2-3 other people.
Anyways, I've noticed it seems the enthusiasm for Cosmics is already dying. Eido's practically a ghost town, some people aren't even bothering to show up for Dino and her bubble-palooza (me included), and there's struggling at Kiga and Ape.
So, I wonder how the GCR store is going to function when it gets to the point that no one even bothers to gather for them, much less grind the Cosmic fights.
Dino has always been a bit difficult during the slow time. Nothing new there, and certainly not something that signifies anything dying down.
Cosmics have alway been 1/3 of the players carrying the other 2/3. That is exactly the reason why Eidolon is so difficult, it assumes all players do their part. The best you can do to avoid Dino fights taking 6 hours, is to make sure you are part of that 1/3.
The kiga-ape-dino trio tend to be more difficult the greater number of people there. A few people constantly dying at kiga slows it up. Lots of lava patches and people intentionally (because the are new and don't better) or accidentally (the game has more than once retargeted me!) hitting hearts slows down ape. People missing dps checks because not paying attention/not knowing the tell or not having enough sheer dps (hybrid role, poor gear, poor power choice) slows down dino. The Prime Time is actually when only a few people are at cosmics, and that seems often to be middle of the night/early morning in the eastern US. These 3 can all be taken down in ca. 15 minutes each by small teams (e.g. 15) who know what they are doing.
Maybe they should make instanced versions with the same rewards for 15-20 people then.
Not clear that they have the technology; the only instanced content above 5 man is Rampages, and they're somewhat glitchy. You can do Kiga and Qwyjibo with Rampage team sizes, though rather tedious.
A 4-6 hour dino fight doesn't sound like great to me. Maybe you mean when all the prime-timers are on and not capped out?
That's so 2016. It doesn't even take the elites to smack the crap out of dino anymore. Now it's more about dead weight not being there - you know, the players who stubbornly refuse to improve and stop doing dumb things?
The Prime Time is actually when only a few people are at cosmics, and that seems often to be middle of the night/early morning in the eastern US. These 3 can all be taken down in ca. 15 minutes each by small teams (e.g. 15) who know what they are doing.
Ya, I've noticed this. I remember this used to be "the bad time", now it's when cosmics get trashed the fastest.
Maybe they should make instanced versions with the same rewards for 15-20 people then.
I'm pretty sure part of the design of the open world cosmics was to make it so everybody could just show up and not be excluded. It was basically a way to mix the "elites" with the "casuals" and force them to work together. I find it hilarious that you who so proudly labeled yourself the voice of the common casual are now fighting to remove this dynamic and move all sources of GCR back into private instances where the elites can do crazy fast runs with each other while leaving your people to fend for themselves.
Cosmics being open world has had a positive effect on this community, and continues to do so.
Cosmics being open world has had a positive effect on this community, and continues to do so.
I'll go even further and say that Cosmics have improved the design of some other open missions and event bosses--there can be mechanics besides spam attacks and block, and, more importantly, players are more apt to cooperate,
As a person who could certainly do Eido and adapt to it, I decided just after playtest it was not something I was going to get into.
1) I can get pretty much the same rewards from easier content. DING DING this is the primary reason Eido is doomed to be abandoned in current form. 2) When Eido started there was quite a bit of chatplaining by leetz about people ruining the runs -- even "gud" players needing time to learn the fights -- certainly because getting to Eido took some work and then if you had even one or two new players, no matter how good they are, could ruin it. I didn't want any part of being blamed for failures. I even asked if I could watch people who knew what they were doing to learn the fight. Nope, no way to do that. So meh, I moved on. 3) Teh purplez - seriously, damn. 4) Lets say I slog past all of the above. I would just become one of the people in #2. Doesn't sound like a pleasant outcome. If another cosmic is doomed to fail I don't have to spend all that prep time to realize it. I can take one look at the dino parse and decide whether or not continuing with the group has any real chance of success, or switch to change the outcome.
I like that they tried to make Eido different but it doesn't offer enough for the hassle - hassle including assembling the right team and sneaking away to get it done before the riffraff shows up.
I think they should go the other way with Eido. Make the prep work open groups. Make Eido himself solo, or 3-5 person groups like TA. Then people who want challenge can get what they want and it isn't so difficult to get a good team together. Comic book-wise you don't often see the Teen Titans matched up with Darkseid and winning (unless the writer sucks) -- no they bring in Supes/Bats/WW for that. I'd feel more like a hero if I wasn't just a cog in a 30-person machine and didn't even have to be that good to win. Then heroes would also have to be not just optimized/good in groups but good solo. Still need a team to get there but at the end it requires that personal responsibility.
1) I can get pretty much the same rewards from easier content. DING DING this is the primary reason Eido is doomed to be abandoned in current form.
Unless it's changed, you could keep farming EIdolon for GCR, regardless of the "cap" on the rest of the Cosmics. When the fight was easier, it meant a fairly good stream of additional GCR. Once my toon was capped, I could then hop into the QWZ for a pile of SCR (the OMs) and then additional GCR. It was significant.
What freedom? there is no real freedom anymore thanks to the latest content. you either build for one of the trinity roles or you won't be effective.
Sure, at Dino and Eidelon you need specialized roles and it's beneficial to only have specialized roles there. Are you really basing the state of the entire game on those two encounters?
At Kiga and Ape only about 4-5 people need to be specialized roles - everyone else can be whatever, and in fact hybrids can be very beneficial there since those fights don't have dps checks and the "dps" frequently take damage; hybrids would put out okay damage while making the healer's job easier.
So 50% of the cosmic content alone isn't what you say it is. Now let's look at the rest of the game....well that's just literally 100% not what you say it is.
It really shows that you haven't been playing this game lately. You don't even know how it works anymore.
1) I can get pretty much the same rewards from easier content. DING DING this is the primary reason Eido is doomed to be abandoned in current form.
The rewards are NOT the same, Eidolon has individual Loot table compared to other 3 cosmics with more GCR/SCR and it has Rewards locked in vendor that require the 50-kill perk
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
That's still a significant chunk of the end game content though. The leveling process is easy and one can do it with with a healer, just takes a bit longer. So, saying that you can do most of the game with any build you like is true, but not necessarily good training for end game. In order to be more helpful in end game content I am reevaulating and rebuilding a fair number of older characters who were mostly hybrids (Invuln but trying to do damage or AoPM not in support, just to buff my stats). A fair number are becoming dual passive builds, just so I can have some good defenses if I ever want them. Some are becoming trinity builds.
So 50% of the cosmic content alone isn't what you say it is. Now let's look at the rest of the game....well that's just literally 100% not what you say it is.
It really shows that you haven't been playing this game lately. You don't even know how it works anymore.
I suppose if I had less than 20 endgame toons, sure I can see that being an issue for someone with 1-3 toons they play all the time.
Besides, with dailies I always end up with hundreds of extra GCR. Its SCR that limits what I can buy.
Before the changes, the absolute fastest route to getting SCR was the QWZ OMs. It is still possible to farm them, though it requires a good bit of coordination.
Before the changes, the absolute fastest route to getting SCR was the QWZ OMs. It is still possible to farm them, though it requires a good bit of coordination.
It's actually easier to farm them than before; if you don't care about unlocking Eidolon, the 5 minute respawn just makes it easier.
And to think for years we complained there was nothing to do... now there's so much to do we can't even do all of it and some of it is unused! Guess that means the devs can hold off on making any new content for a while. \o/
The rewards are NOT the same, Eidolon has individual Loot table compared to other 3 cosmics with more GCR/SCR and it has Rewards locked in vendor that require the 50-kill perk
Secondly, how many people are enthusiastically pursuing Eido for costumes? It certainly can't be many given the amount of activity.
I WAS, BEFORE they hijacked the perk reward from 10 to 50 and locked me out from costumes i was planning to do
and now Im upset again
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Not to mention, this FORCE ME to play with a single character 50 times in Eidolon in order to get the perk to buy the costumes
This doesn't encourage me to use different characters needed, this encourage me to stick with one character for 50 fights, which propably gonna fail I only got 1 succesful eidolon run last month
as much i love my characters, i don't want to be permanently stuck playing with only 1 of them
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Well they just killed eido, and the zone was so full that there were extra people who wanted to be part of it and couldn't get in. So much for that "eido abandoned and impossible" theory.
Comments
"being good" = doing significantly more than the minimum...either dealing way more than their own share of the damage/healing or filling another crucial role.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Comparing a lack of people participating in a GCR-earning endeavor to a lack of people hanging out in Lemuria is just not a fair comparison.
Just to get this out of the way, I have been taking a break.
Now that shouldn't be holding anyone up from taking out the Eidolon because I was not, am not, and do not expect to be one of the "leets".
I know, or at least knew, the fights, but I was not min-maxxed out to carry a bunch of people.
That out of the way, the question becomes "At what level should the end-game content be tuned?".
If they tune it for the best of the best then everyone else is just left behind.
Might those players be able to become better? Sure. Might it require changing their character build to get there? Well, also yes.
And this is a potential sticking point. Part of the appeal is making the hero *YOU* want. If that hero isn't very good, then that means that they don't help when they show up for endgame stuff, no matter how much you might like them, though.
Make them better and they may lose some of what made them who they were, though.
On the other hand, make it too easy and the leets are raking in GCR hand over fist and a few weeks after being released, they have all of the perks and gear from the new cosmic.
So should there maybe be some more easily doable time-gated GCR content that offers rewards at a lower rate?
No, this would never earn you Eidolon kills so you couldn't use this to get those costume pieces, but it would be a way to earn GCR at a lesser rate and obtain GCR stuff without having to sacrifice what you think your character should be.
All that said? Unless your AT is locked in hybrid stance, for any top-end stuff people should consider one of the specialized stances.
My fire freeeform has a defense and offense passive. If I am doing solo stuff I can switch to the hybrid or even defense stance if needed, but for team content I go offense. It doesn't sacrifice who my character is or anything like that, but it does help the team get the job done.
The anti-hybrid folks can be a little too aggressive in their attacks, but this is an issue with development.
I simply do not think that they can balance the game that they made with hybrids in the mix.
It's not the players' fault, but it's not the fault of the other people that hybrids are not great team players, either.
They maybe could use some work on their social skills, but the core sentiment is mostly correct: Hybrids add to the failure rate of cosmic fights.
They do not tank as well as a "real" tank, they do not deal the same damage as a "real" DPSer, and they do not heal to the same degree that a "real" healer does.
I really want to make a character that is mostly lunges. Just bounce from one enemy to another. I think it would be hilarious. Not very effective, but fun. Would I take that to a Cosmic? Of course not. Would be fun in regular content, though. But, my lava nymph who escaped Vulcan's slave pits and destroyed Pompeii? Yeah, she does cosmics like a boss. Would I run her through regular content? Not likely, it's too boring.
As far as theme goes, ALL heroes' theme should be to beat the bad guy. If that means upgrading your gear, then you do so. When Batman went to fight Superman, did Bats show up in his Bat-underoos? No. He made himself a Bat-tle suit and found some Kryptonite. While in armor was he still Batman? Durn straight he was. Maybe he was not the sneaky spooky Batman that he normally used, but he was the Batman to win, which is what Batman is REALLY about.
So, people need to quit whining about their theme and do what Batman did, whatever you need to win. Sure, you can still keep your keystone power or two (I have a Might tank with Ego Sprites), but back them up with something with some smackdown to it. Because, as a hero, your theme should always be to win.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
It's not well judged, as a zone. It's difficult to get to, horribly purple, and the missions are designed to kick players in the teeth from the outset. The last time they went and had a power pass and I had a free retcon I redesigned a character to be what I thought would work (according to rumour, anyway). Defensive passive, wardicator, debuffs, skewed towards criticals for damage spikes. And it worked, up to a point. The point being that they'd tweaked it to make it harder, so soloing even the first mission wasn't really possible - surviving was achieveable, but doing enough damage before things respawned (with my emphasis on defence) wasn't. So.... off to another game I go. There's a world of choice out there, and working out and grinding for the enhanced-difficulty end game of CO isn't high on the list of fun things to do, any more. Maybe if it went back to the original difficulty level I might feel it worth a go. But they won't, so I don't.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
So, I wonder how the GCR store is going to function when it gets to the point that no one even bothers to gather for them, much less grind the Cosmic fights.
Cosmics have alway been 1/3 of the players carrying the other 2/3. That is exactly the reason why Eidolon is so difficult, it assumes all players do their part. The best you can do to avoid Dino fights taking 6 hours, is to make sure you are part of that 1/3.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
By being awesome at the game and poking fun at people who are bad at it? Done and done s( o w o)=b
That's so 2016. It doesn't even take the elites to smack the crap out of dino anymore. Now it's more about dead weight not being there - you know, the players who stubbornly refuse to improve and stop doing dumb things? Ya, I've noticed this. I remember this used to be "the bad time", now it's when cosmics get trashed the fastest.
I'm pretty sure part of the design of the open world cosmics was to make it so everybody could just show up and not be excluded. It was basically a way to mix the "elites" with the "casuals" and force them to work together. I find it hilarious that you who so proudly labeled yourself the voice of the common casual are now fighting to remove this dynamic and move all sources of GCR back into private instances where the elites can do crazy fast runs with each other while leaving your people to fend for themselves.
Cosmics being open world has had a positive effect on this community, and continues to do so.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
1) I can get pretty much the same rewards from easier content. DING DING this is the primary reason Eido is doomed to be abandoned in current form.
2) When Eido started there was quite a bit of chatplaining by leetz about people ruining the runs -- even "gud" players needing time to learn the fights -- certainly because getting to Eido took some work and then if you had even one or two new players, no matter how good they are, could ruin it. I didn't want any part of being blamed for failures. I even asked if I could watch people who knew what they were doing to learn the fight. Nope, no way to do that. So meh, I moved on.
3) Teh purplez - seriously, damn.
4) Lets say I slog past all of the above. I would just become one of the people in #2. Doesn't sound like a pleasant outcome. If another cosmic is doomed to fail I don't have to spend all that prep time to realize it. I can take one look at the dino parse and decide whether or not continuing with the group has any real chance of success, or switch to change the outcome.
I like that they tried to make Eido different but it doesn't offer enough for the hassle - hassle including assembling the right team and sneaking away to get it done before the riffraff shows up.
I think they should go the other way with Eido. Make the prep work open groups. Make Eido himself solo, or 3-5 person groups like TA. Then people who want challenge can get what they want and it isn't so difficult to get a good team together. Comic book-wise you don't often see the Teen Titans matched up with Darkseid and winning (unless the writer sucks) -- no they bring in Supes/Bats/WW for that. I'd feel more like a hero if I wasn't just a cog in a 30-person machine and didn't even have to be that good to win. Then heroes would also have to be not just optimized/good in groups but good solo. Still need a team to get there but at the end it requires that personal responsibility.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Besides, with dailies I always end up with hundreds of extra GCR. Its SCR that limits what I can buy.
At Kiga and Ape only about 4-5 people need to be specialized roles - everyone else can be whatever, and in fact hybrids can be very beneficial there since those fights don't have dps checks and the "dps" frequently take damage; hybrids would put out okay damage while making the healer's job easier.
So 50% of the cosmic content alone isn't what you say it is. Now let's look at the rest of the game....well that's just literally 100% not what you say it is.
It really shows that you haven't been playing this game lately. You don't even know how it works anymore.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Secondly, how many people are enthusiastically pursuing Eido for costumes? It certainly can't be many given the amount of activity.
The GCR and SCR can more easily be obtained elsewhere.
I WAS, BEFORE they hijacked the perk reward from 10 to 50 and locked me out from costumes i was planning to do
and now Im upset again
This doesn't encourage me to use different characters needed, this encourage me to stick with one character for 50 fights, which propably gonna fail I only got 1 succesful eidolon run last month
as much i love my characters, i don't want to be permanently stuck playing with only 1 of them
My super cool CC build and how to use it.