Eidolon Abandoned?

n8mcd

I have been watching to join an Eidolon run for weeks now, keeping an eye on the zone population and watching for calls for a Eddy-run from anybody.

It seems that since the launch requirements were made more severe, very few (if any) runs have been staged. Because of the odd hours I work, I am on at variety of hours throughout the day, nigh-daily, but have had no luck spotting, let alone joining, an Eidolon team.

Considering this is no longer the latest content, softening the launch requirements to encourage participation seems apropriate, especially considering the GCR store requirements for purchasing many of the Eidolon costume pieces and QWZ devices require second and third tier perks that are impossible to get without teams successfully completing the Eidolon on a regular basis.



Generally in MMOs, power gamers rush out the complete content and earn new items and unlocks hastily after implementation. Because of that, most MMOs have steep difficulty and purchase requirements on initial release; then lowering those requirements later as interest wanes, to encourage more casual players to explore the content and earn the rewards, making the most of the development dollar by increasing the period of active interest in the expansion.

By increasing the difficulty and purchase requirements AFTER the power-gamers had already burned out on it, you have effectively turned the QWZ into a graveyard, cheapening the development dollar value for the project, and frustrating casual gamers who are interested in the content but lack the intensity to tackle the increased difficulty.

nbkxs

There have been two attempts in the past month that I can recall, one about a week ago that I missed sometime during the night, and one a couple days ago that failed horribly.

The problem is the lack of organization, with no one to lead the groups, they don't even attempt to step up, or bother with it at all anymore. Until someone gets in to lead it, it's unlikely to happen.​​

n8mcd

The reduction in the window of time the completes on the sub-bosses can occur is only complicating those organization issues, and ultimately, driving down the morale of people moderately interested in Eidolon.

For those who have already earned the perks and rewards they were interested in, the extra effort involved is time and energy poorly spent, when the same GCR can be earned on any other Cosmic, with far less effort or organization. =(

xacchaeus

I gave up when they changed the perk requirements from 10 (which I had obtained, but didn't buy anything yet) to 50 kills...

roughbearmattach

It takes time, energy, and knowledge, but you could begin working on Eido runs. First, organize regular groups for the OMs, learn those fights inside and out. Then, start to organize Eido runs. Initially, you might not want to advertise super widely--OMs essentially have maximum participation levels, because of how they scale.

This will take a lot of time and effort on your part, but that is what the previous group of folks spent. They did Eidolon dozens of times, with many, many failures. They noted what went wrong, tried to make corrections, and even uploaded guides to these forums.

I'm not a fan of organizing Cosmic runs myself--only have organized Kiga/Ape/Dino a couple times each, and not for many months. I have never organized OMs or Eido runs. I would like to run some more, but I accept that I'll have to wait and wait.

Acceptance or action

n8mcd

Unfortunately, I lack the time, energy, and knowledge you describe. This lack is fairly uniform among the larger population base. Those players with sufficient time and energy to develop the knowledge are in short supply, and are generally the afore-mentioned power-gamers who have moved on.

My action is posting this here as a call to aleviate the rigourous and excessive requirements of simply starting the Eidolon Cosmic fight to make it more accessable to a broader class of players.

pantagruel01

n8mcd said:

The reduction in the window of time the completes on the sub-bosses can occur is only complicating those organization issues, and ultimately, driving down the morale of people moderately interested in Eidolon.

The reduction in time for the sub-bosses does not matter; any group capable of taking down Eidelon will not have trouble beating the sub-bosses within the time limit. The problem is that Eidelon itself has been slightly overtuned and is not reliably beatable even with organization.

aiqa

There are 2 mechanics that are a bit of a problem.

- The meteors seems to be a bit of a problem for many players. In particular the first hit could use a slightly more forgiving timing, or there could be something else to warm you they are coming.
- Three green orbs at stage 3 of the fight can not be handled by any group I have seen lately. It's a full 50% increase in damage required over previous stages. So only groups that have stomped all over the previous stages have any chance at destroying all 3 somewhat reliable.

pwestolemyname

It seems that the issue is less the OM opening missions and more Eido himself. Most reasonably organized secret runs can almost certainly complete the OM missions. As far as I can tell, this is still essentially impossible with a public run, but at least it can be done. It appears that most of the population understands this and, while not content, is willing to wait for the secret run to do Eido.

Then once we get Eido opened, and the rest of the server is allowed to fill, it becomes nearly impossible to finish. Since the latest update, I think I have been on one successful Eido run and a few failed runs. I would have been on more failed runs, I'm sure, but attempts are so few and far between these days. I have yet to see a fully secret Eido run. Every one I've been on has included the greater population in the final Eido battle. Personally, I think this speaks to the quality of our pro players.

From what I've seen, the first 2/3rds of Eido are relatively doable is most people listen to instructions and have at least marginally decent builds. It is really the addition of the 3rd Green orb that seems to be the doom of most runs. The amount of DPS required to put all 3 down before explosion seems to be beyond the capabilities of the playerbase.

I have discussed some alternative tactics, such as not attacking the greens and just blocking through their explosions. The general consensus is that this would result in more healing than most groups could overcome. Or, even just focusing on two and letting the other blow. The problem there is coordination of which two to attack. Without names, there isn't really a way to coordinate that effectively. And again, there is the issue of Eido healing. The commonly held theory is that he heals 1,000,000 HP per green that explodes.

So, yeah, basically, all of the newer players that did not get their perks and/or gear when he first came out are basically SOL. I'd be happy to help do Eido runs if I thought they'd have a decent chance of succeeding, even though I pretty much have all the Eido stuff that I want. But, since they really don't have much of a chance to succeed, I do not pretty to run them. I get plenty of GCR/SCR from Cosmics and such.

pantagruel01

aiqa said:

There are 2 mechanics that are a bit of a problem.

Three, really. The amount of healing required during the 3 red orb phase, combined with the target caps for heal powers, means that a significant number of characters will invariably die (reducing dps, and thus contributing to the problems with the green orb phase). A phase of "some characters *will* die, and there's nothing you can do about it, but if you're lucky it's not you" is not a good thing in a fight.

Note that these mechanics are somewhat synergistic; in particular, making the red orbs or meteors easier would make the green orbs less difficult because of fewer dead dps.

n8mcd

pantagruel01 said:

n8mcd said:

The reduction in the window of time the completes on the sub-bosses can occur is only complicating those organization issues, and ultimately, driving down the morale of people moderately interested in Eidolon.

The reduction in time for the sub-bosses does not matter; any group capable of taking down Eidelon will not have trouble beating the sub-bosses within the time limit. The problem is that Eidelon itself has been slightly overtuned and is not reliably beatable even with organization.

I only recall people frustrated at the OM changes, and that seemed to be the end of the semi-frequent runs. Having not been able to find an Eido-run forming or in progress, I have no experience with the new Eido fight.

If the problem driving people off the mission is the encounter itself, it should be retuned to a level that encourages or at least does not discourage people from participating.

n8mcd

I assume the 'secret runs' are simply privately organized runs that are not announced in public chat channels?

If that is the case, then some vigilance would allow one to participate still, 'invited' or not.

pantagruel01

n8mcd said:

I only recall people frustrated at the OM changes, and that seemed to be the end of the semi-frequent runs.

That's a coincidence; the Eidelon fight was retuned at the same time as the OMs.

kamokami

IMO, it's the lack of people willing to organize. Because whenever Eido has been announced we've had no trouble getting people to show up.

"Secret runs" are generally too small to happen, unless it's the weekend or something. So they don't. When there's an attempt about to be made, then there's an announcement once Eido has been unlocked and the minimum required roles are present in the instance. The announcement is not about charity or being nice, it's made because there is a need for a larger number of players doing great DPS and providing great auras.

Right now attempts are not being made on a regular basis because no one's willing to organize them on a regular basis. I used to do it, but am taking a break from organizing since I have everything there is to have. Speaking for myself only, I will resume organizing runs when there is enticing and difficult to get rewards for Eido.

When a run gets organized, then people do join in and frequently fill the zone really fast. So it's not about no one wanting to do Eido in general. It's more that no one wants to organize runs on a consistent basis because that's exhausting relative to the reward.

For now the only change I'd suggest beyond better rewards would be to color/name the Enervating Crystals differently so that they can be distinguished from each other. This will make it easier to implement strategies for taking them down in time. Regarding going from 2 orbs to 3, I think it's a fine transition because when the orbs end up spawning closer together we blow through them just as fast if they were 2, but spread apart. This introduces a bit of uncertainty that keeps the fight engaging even after wipes/fails. Because when we've kept at it for long enough we've gotten sets of lucky orb spawns that have pushed us to finish at the last 5-10 minutes on the clock.

I actually think the success rate is about right. When we ran them consistently it was about 60-70% and it made winning feel super awesome. I don't think the mechanics of the fight need to be made easier at all.

Maybe I believe in the playerbase a bit more than others. I think that if people have enough incentive + information then they will improve. Right now there is not enough incentive to *get better* at this fight. It should remain super difficult because it's only thing left in the game that's not on complete total farm status. It's something to strive for.....well not yet....not until it has rewards to match. Then it will be actually something to strive for.

Then people will put in the effort to figure it out, adapt, and organize to get things back on track.

pantagruel01

kamokami said:

I actually think the success rate is about right. When we ran them consistently it was about 60-70% and it made winning feel super awesome.

My experience with the success rate (post-revamp) is about half that, and all attempts have required near the time limit. Three game-hours for a single victory seems unduly high.

opalflame

It's probably because the rewards just aren't worth the time it takes to beat him. I mean, it is fun to fight him every now and then, but with how long it takes and the high failure rate, there just isn't much of a reason to do it often.

darqaura2

pantagruel01 said:

kamokami said:

I actually think the success rate is about right. When we ran them consistently it was about 60-70% and it made winning feel super awesome.

My experience with the success rate (post-revamp) is about half that, and all attempts have required near the time limit. Three game-hours for a single victory seems unduly high.

Agreed. 3 hours is asking a lot, especially since most folks have already done 1 or 2 of the other cosmics in the same night. I can't see myself sleeping at 4am on any night anymore. lol

jaazaniah1

I'm not one of those people who is good at figuring out all the little mechanics and tricks. I'm OK at following what others have done, so I would not be very useful at organizing these sorts of things. I also just find being in that zone unbearable to look at for very long. Maybe once a week I'll do the dailies there. If I hear of an Eido run I'll join in, but there are other things in the game I find fair more pleasant, and so I do those instead.

avianos

That's what you freaking get for keep increasing the difficulty and listening to the minority who wants 50 PERKS REQUIREMENTS for vendor items


Yeah DEVs, that was a GREAT idea, see how it turned out​​

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layene

avianos said:

That's what you freaking get for keep increasing the difficulty and listening to the minority who wants 50 PERKS REQUIREMENTS for vendor items





Yeah DEVs, that was a GREAT idea, see how it turned out​​

Were people actually asking for that? Why?

avianos

layene wrote: »

Were people actually asking for that? Why?

oh YES, they were, they even suggested 100 Perk requirements for vendor item

supposedly to "increase" the Endgame participation, motivate people and get more players into fight

I was complety against the idea, I was even labeled as "casual" to believe the 10 perk was more down to earth requirement

Nice Job breaking it Devs, see how it went
I'm glad I bought Eidolon chest and shoulderpads before the price hijack​​

darqaura2

avianos said:

avianos said:

layene wrote: »

Were people actually asking for that? Why?

oh YES, they were, they even suggested 100 Perk requirements for vendor item



supposedly to "increase" the Endgame participation, motivate people and get more players into fight



I was complety against the idea, I was even labeled as "casual" to believe the 10 perk was more down to earth requirement



Nice Job breaking it Devs, see how it went

I'm glad I bought Eidolon chest and shoulderpads before the price hijack​​

avianos said:

At 50 I have no interest whatsoever in ever gong for something like that. That's a bit grind happy.

The only reason I'd go on any further eido runs is GCR.

xacchaeus

avianos said:

I'm glad I bought Eidolon chest and shoulderpads before the price hijack​​

I didn't, kinda wish I did, changing requirements after being accomplished ruined the fight for me. not that I found it particularly fun to begin with

n8mcd

A smart change to the GCR store would be to set one or two items from each Cosmic at the 1x perk, a couple at the 10x perk, and the remainder at the 50 threshold.... it's called bringing the customer along.

theravenforce

As with other Cosmic adjustments...I am curious as to why Eidolon was adjusted to be harder than it already is?

Especially considering the previous requirements to unlock the fight itself. Sometimes, from the outside looking in it's like:

"Here is the content. We'll make it harder so there is even less room for error despite it taking a very long time any way. This appears to reduce desire to play developed content...mission accomplished?"

I've honestly only bothered with Eidolon once or twice, so I've saved myself the pain of multiple runs it seems and I accept that my experience with it, isn't as great as others so my question is:

Was Eidolon simply beatable in a good time frame which is why it's difficulty was increased, or was it actually too weak?

ashstorm1

xacchaeus said:

I gave up when they changed the perk requirements from 10 (which I had obtained, but didn't buy anything yet) to 50 kills...

This. The 10 kill perk requirement was nice, and all in all, i thought the boss strat for Eido was pretty basic. But 50 kills ? Thanks, but no... Not going to condone the downgrading of a fun group event into a boring grindfest.

qawsada

theravenforce said:

As with other Cosmic adjustments...I am curious as to why Eidolon was adjusted to be harder than it already is?

When the mechanic was figure out, he becomes farmable. Sometime, he was kill 3-5 times a day, and then people start bragging how easy Eido was in chat and after that, he got a buff. This happens a few times before and now, we have this new version of Eido to deal with.

spinnytop

n8mcd said:

the extra effort involved is time and energy poorly spent, when the same GCR can be earned on any other Cosmic, with far less effort or organization. =(

^ the real problem

the other cosmics are just too easy by comparison. why step out of the ezmode farm cycle of kigaapedino? the solution is obvious of course, even if many people won't like it.

aiqa

Three cosmics have been the biggest success in COs content history. One cosmic is hardly being touched.

Concluding that the one cosmic that is hardly being touched is the right design, is not very pragmatical. The current situation is enough proof that the Eidolon fight itself has a few design flaws that make it unattractive.

I am aware that with a sufficiently strong team the fight is still very much possible, but getting such a team from CO's small population is very difficult and not exactly fun. And after the last changes I don't remember any win without at least one Fist AT.

blockwave

But yeah before the change to his difficulty, he became pretty easy to do, I remember doing 3 cosmics, 3 TA, and 3 Eido a day for a week, the new difficulty is okay, just give us names to distinguish green orbs and better rewards.

jaazaniah1

For whatever reason the Qzone is mostly dead. I'm actually kind of interested if the Dev team is going to put anymore effort into Eido and that zone. Does the Dev team wash its hands of the whole thing and move on, or do something to make it more attractive to more players? They might want to, but have a schedule from above that keeps them from revisiting it anymore, or they may think that that content is just fine and it's up to the players to make use of it.

xacchaeus

spinnytop said:

the other cosmics are just too easy by comparison. why step out of the ezmode farm cycle of kigaapedino? the solution is obvious of course, even if many people won't like it.

The solution is to step Eddie back down, yeah, a few people won't like it, but better to have content being used than abandoned after a few months.

This is a game, its supposed to be fun... for as many people as possible...

n8mcd

Development time is money, and that time spent creating unused content is wasted time and money.

spinnytop said:

n8mcd said:

the extra effort involved is time and energy poorly spent, when the same GCR can be earned on any other Cosmic, with far less effort or organization. =(

^ the real problem

the other cosmics are just too easy by comparison. why step out of the ezmode farm cycle of kigaapedino? the solution is obvious of course, even if many people won't like it.

I would hardly call the other cosmics easy.

They are doable by a good team, but not easy.

Eido requires and exceptional team. That is unreasonable.

pantagruel01

blockwave said:

But yeah before the change to his difficulty, he became pretty easy to do, I remember doing 3 cosmics, 3 TA, and 3 Eido a day for a week, the new difficulty is okay, just give us names to distinguish green orbs and better rewards.

i.e. make it easier.

nbkxs

Kiga really is too easy. The ape only really gets really difficult when there's too many people there. The dino is about right where it needs to be.

I outlined in the guide why the last destroyer failed, and it really wasn't due to anything but the players having builds that don't support the demands of the battle, and people failing to think ahead to what's coming next. On this battle, you have to anticipate what's going to happen, and always be ready for it. Once it goes down hill at all, it's better to just stop, and start over so everyone can recompose.​​

spinnytop

aiqa said:

Three cosmics have been the biggest success in COs content history. One cosmic is hardly being touched.

Concluding that the one cosmic that is hardly being touched is the right design, is not very pragmatical. The current situation is enough proof that the Eidolon fight itself has a few design flaws that make it unattractive.

And if they introduced 3 new cosmics that were big sacks of potatoes that have no attacks and give the same rewards as the current cosmics, then they would instantly be more popular than the current three most popular ones. So by the logic you propose, Sacks of Potatoes 1 2 and 3 should be added to the game immediately because more popular always means better designed right?

spinnytop

n8mcd said:

Development time is money, and that time spent creating unused content is wasted time and money.

Well, the least use of development time would be to just leave them at their current difficulty and lower the rewards to appropriate levels. I would also agree to that.

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aiqa

spinnytop said:

aiqa said:

Three cosmics have been the biggest success in COs content history. One cosmic is hardly being touched.

Concluding that the one cosmic that is hardly being touched is the right design, is not very pragmatical. The current situation is enough proof that the Eidolon fight itself has a few design flaws that make it unattractive.

And if they introduced 3 new cosmics that were big sacks of potatoes that have no attacks and give the same rewards as the current cosmics, then they would instantly be more popular than the current three most popular ones. So by the logic you propose, Sacks of Potatoes 1 2 and 3 should be added to the game immediately because more popular always means better designed right?

That is an unfounded assumption. The situation with Eidolon vs the other three cosmics is reality.
I know I would not have enjoyed your hypothetical sacks of potatoes, and I am sure quite a few others wouldn't either.

Now I do agree the fights should be made in a way that keeps them from being to dull. Things need to happen that keep you on your toes, which doesn't happen enough on the easier three cosmics for my tastes. But that should not be quite as overtuned as Eido, the mechanics need to be doable for most people.

I think Panta raised a very valid point in questioning how much time do you think it's reasonable to spend on 1 fight before you get a win. Even the 1/3 win ratio (counting by the time he gets unlocked, if you go by the actual win ratio it's far lower) on Eidolon is not nearly achieved at the moment, but lets go with that for now. If that is the intended for a cosmic fight, you spend 3 hours for 10GCR. Looking at the GCR store, for a fully geared character you need over 1000GCR just for the gear. And that is not counting any mods you might want (need, to really do your part in fights at the level of Eido). So that would be a minimum of 300 hours for 1 character, and easily twice (or three times for tanks) that much when really trying to optimize things.

I don't know what you think is reasonable, but 500 to 1000 hours of playtime to optimize the gear on 1 character doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

gradii said:

aiqa said:

Three cosmics have been the biggest success in COs content history.

Considering that's what CO considers a success it's no wonder myself and most of my friends have moved on.​​

Firstly, you haven't moved on.

Secondly it's not what CO considers, it's what player do. I have never seen anything else in CO that has been bringing players together in such high numbers, for such a long time.

jaazaniah1

Well, the reality is that many people, probably at least 30+, show up for kiga-ape-dino and Eido/QWZ is mostly a ghost town. It's pretty easy to see that the player base thinks that the former are a better option for rewards and fun than the latter. I suppose they could make kiga-ape-dino less attractive for the majority of players, but I have my doubts that that will make the game more money.

spinnytop said:

aiqa said:

Three cosmics have been the biggest success in COs content history. One cosmic is hardly being touched.

Concluding that the one cosmic that is hardly being touched is the right design, is not very pragmatical. The current situation is enough proof that the Eidolon fight itself has a few design flaws that make it unattractive.

And if they introduced 3 new cosmics that were big sacks of potatoes that have no attacks and give the same rewards as the current cosmics, then they would instantly be more popular than the current three most popular ones. So by the logic you propose, Sacks of Potatoes 1 2 and 3 should be added to the game immediately because more popular always means better designed right?

spinnytop

aiqa said:

I don't know what you think is reasonable, but 500 to 1000 hours of playtime to optimize the gear on 1 character doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

The time spent on the cosmics is variable though. You can't really say "Okay, the fights will take X hours" because it depends on who shows up and what they do. It's reasonable that the length of time it takes is determined by the skill and discipline of the players that show up. If the players get their stuff in order, clearing all four in an hour seems perfectly reasonable. If the lumbering doofs show up, it shouldn't get finished at all. Remember that failure and getting nothing is supposed to be a possibility, it's not just a matter of "how long before our guaranteed success?". It's not about creating a daily disbursement schedule where the goal is to pass out X reward every day so that people can get Y gear in Z hours.

darqaura2

spinnytop said:

aiqa said:

I don't know what you think is reasonable, but 500 to 1000 hours of playtime to optimize the gear on 1 character doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

The time spent on the cosmics is variable though. You can't really say "Okay, the fights will take X hours" because it depends on who shows up and what they do. It's reasonable that the length of time it takes is determined by the skill and discipline of the players that show up. If the players get their stuff in order, clearing all four in an hour seems perfectly reasonable. If the lumbering doofs show up, it shouldn't get finished at all. Remember that failure and getting nothing is supposed to be a possibility, it's not just a matter of "how long before our guaranteed success?". It's not about creating a daily disbursement schedule where the goal is to pass out X reward every day so that people can get Y gear in Z hours.

That's fine. But if the effort involved for the encounter isn't rewarding enough most folks won't bother even trying to organize one. Which is the current problem with Eido. I disagree strongly then that the next option is to make the other cosmics more tedious. The other comics STILL have the " if the lumbering doofs show up" problem, as evidenced by the near 6 hour dino run we had a few days ago. The issue is the other cosmics aren't as tedious to get going/participate in.

One experiment the devs could try is take off the timer on Eido and see if more attempts are made.

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pantagruel01

gradii said:

Orly? when's the last time I actually played this trainwreck?​​

You will not have 'moved on' until you stop posting.

theravenforce

Oh wow.

omnilord

Nerf the HP on the Enervating Crystals and the Portals. They don't need named or colored or anything else. They don't need that much health. And Eido shouldn't be able to layer his super attacks. I lost count of the number of times he summoned portals, then the enervating crystals and the whole party was too split in dealing with all that to be effective at all.

These fights shouldn't be "Do-able if your build's good enough." Because this means that silver players and their ATs are excluded.

The benchmark for these fights should be if a team of ATs with okay gear can do them. Not needing specialized tailor built toons.

And just so it's clear: I'm a member of this game's player base. I've seriously been disappointed with the Cosmic content. So, so disappointed.

kamokami

When the update went live, I recall us beating the revamped Eido without Fist ATs 4-6 times just to prove we could.

kamokami

People are perfectly fine showing up to the Eido fight, even to the point of filling the zone, as long as Eido is unlocked. The rewards are pretty much the same as those for the easy Cosmics. So spending the time to organize his unlocking is not worthwhile.

It still won't be worthwhile even if the Eido fight itself is made easier. What takes time and effort is gathering and organizing people to unlock him.

It's the people organizing and unlocking that need more incentive....that's what has been abandoned. And if you consider how many people consistently did that even when the final fight was a guaranteed easy win, you could still argue that this part of the fight has been largely abandoned for a long time.

The final fight is not abandoned at all.

nepht

Heres a thought guys. One that might shock you. People might just be bored with it. Stop over thinking video games.

jaazaniah1

For me "Eido" is just shorthand for everything leading up to the final battle.

But, be that as it may, the Qzone is largely abandoned now. Most times I check there are only a couple people there. Of course, this is also the case with Lemuria and Vibora Bay, but those are much older content. Maybe the Devs are done with Qzone and are moving on, with no looking back. I'm really just curious about their intent. I imagine it must be frustrating to put a lot of work into something that people end up not using.

kamokami said:

People are perfectly fine showing up to the Eido fight, even to the point of filling the zone, as long as Eido is unlocked. The rewards are pretty much the same as those for the easy Cosmics. So spending the time to organize his unlocking is not worthwhile.

It still won't be worthwhile even if the Eido fight itself is made easier. What takes time and effort is gathering and organizing people to unlock him.

It's the people organizing and unlocking that need more incentive....that's what has been abandoned. And if you consider how many people consistently did that even when the final fight was a guaranteed easy win, you could still argue that this part of the fight has been largely abandoned for a long time.

The final fight is not abandoned at all.