How can Grab alerts better teach players as they are leveling up?

spinnytop

We had a discussion about this in the secret evil elite channel for like 20 minutes today, and I figured it would make a neat public discussion. So, how do you think Grab alerts can better teach players the things they'll need to know when they hit 40 and start endgame content?

pantagruel01

Well, assuming Grab alerts are supposed to be doable by a random pug, there's serious limitations on how much they can possibly teach. However, making it actually important to block boss shtick attacks would be a reasonable start.

raighn

One way would be to break it up into different level tiers... 10-19, 20-29, 30-40... with each tier being more complex and requiring use of more mechanics...

pantagruel01

raighn said:

One way would be to break it up into different level tiers... 10-19, 20-29, 30-40... with each tier being more complex and requiring use of more mechanics...

While there are some benefits to that (a grab with all level 10-19 is a bit of a nightmare) it might cause the grab queues to lock up, and it means you can't help your friends.

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theravenforce

As painful as this may be in actual practice...

Adding some sort of reminder to stick together and remember to block in a cutscene style format?

Either that...or players creating a co-ordinated video on how to successfully run a Grab Alert and Cryptic working with players to promote this video to new players...or something like that...but that sounds like a lot of work...possibly?

(Alternatively have a Defender voice over during the introduction of the boss which reminds players to block their charged attacks.)

decorumfriends

It's not the purpose of Alerts to teach you anything. So I'd say...nothing.

doctordna

I am not at level 40 but got a pretty good grasp on how the system works. It isn't that difficult to understand and anyone who goes through the tutorial pretty much knows the ropes or they should. Anything else could be found in several YouTube videos. I really get a kick out of how many players talk about "end game content". End game is when I stop playing, therefore no content. If you mean content beyond level 40, then I normally just play repeatable missions or look for old stuff I glossed over before. I mean there is nothing like being a god-like level 40 mopping the floor with the level 15 AIs.

roughbearmattach

Each Alert boss should have some very serious schtick attack that does a massive amount of damage if not blocked. This could be something the boss only uses one time in a fight, or maybe a few times.

Baron Cimiterriere has his reflective block, which is very nasty if not blocked. The other bosses have to have stuff like this, too. All of them. For example, when Psimon transforms into the psychic juggernaut form, why not give him a massive mental blast that does 90% health damage, but only 10% if blocked.

Grabs don't have a respawn penalty, a timer, or a lockout. This would be a great way for players to see that block is useful and sometimes needed.

aesica

raighn wrote: »

One way would be to break it up into different level tiers... 10-19, 20-29, 30-40... with each tier being more complex and requiring use of more mechanics...

This game just isn't big enough to split alerts into level brackets like that. Queues already suck during the late hours, but this would make them literally unplayable.

pantagruel01 wrote: »

making it actually important to block boss shtick attacks would be a reasonable start.

This is the best way, although those attacks should be highly visible. I personally learned the importance from proper blocking from Jack Fool, but any lessons from him are only taught to the person he's actively attacking.​​

narf

Did they put blocking training back into the tutorial? If not, then there's a start.

qawsada

roughbearmattach said:

For example, when Menton transforms into the psychic juggernaut form, why not give him a massive mental blast that does 90% health damage, but only 10% if blocked.

Menton doesn't do Alert as he stuck in prison.

belwen said:

Did they put blocking training back into the tutorial? If not, then there's a start.

Defender tells you to block Black Talon's attack.

pantagruel01

belwen said:

Did they put blocking training back into the tutorial? If not, then there's a start.

There's a mega-dumb blocking tutorial (as in, it's actually detrimental to block at the time they tell you about it...)

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markhawkman

maybe give some of them KaBoom attacks? That way it manaces not just the aggro target, but anyone near them

riverocean

The problem extends far beyond alerts. Most of the game requires nothing more than spamming attacks. We all know that players can take even the crappiest build to max level solo. Then those players wander into post-40 content completely unprepared. Fixing that requires a huge change in how the game is played and NPC difficulty. Which is going to lead to huge amount of backlash from the community.

roughbearmattach

qawsada said:

roughbearmattach said:

For example, when Menton transforms into the psychic juggernaut form, why not give him a massive mental blast that does 90% health damage, but only 10% if blocked.

Menton doesn't do Alert as he stuck in prison.

belwen said:

Did they put blocking training back into the tutorial? If not, then there's a start.

Defender tells you to block Black Talon's attack.

Psimon, my mistake. Still, you didn't understand my point?

Put block in the tutorial, when it barely matters, when folks are often skipping the tutorial, doesn't seem enough.

markhawkman

tutorial-style content seems like a bad fit for alerts though since it'd become mondo annoying seeing it hundreds of times. But tweaking the actual tutorial to add a block or die mechanic seems a good fit.

narf

roughbearmattach said:

Put block in the tutorial, when it barely matters, when folks are often skipping the tutorial, doesn't seem enough.

But it's a necessary start. If players don't know how to block, putting block or die mechanics into Grab alerts will just mean characters faceplanting continuously and either running back or spamming the call for help button. You can't expect people to respond to a mechanic with a response they've never been taught.*

As for skipping the tutorial: I'm not sure if you can skip it on your first character. If you can, then that should be fixed.

*The Kevin Poe fight at the end of the first questline in Westside does try to teach blocking, but seems insufficient. First, it's done mid-combat, and players may not be reading all the text, and second, it doesn't really explain what blocking does.

hamsupfaymui

Part of the problem with blocking is that any "free to play" players using an AT (instead of the Silver FF) will usually get their upgraded block power at L21 - mid-up the food chain when you start GRAB alerts at L10.

And blocking depends on the build — some builds reward blocking far less than others (examples: Glass Cannon builds like mine). A threat wipe and escape, or a power to self-resuscitate is a better option sometimes (or in the case of Supernatural Beast, Regeneration / Incredi-Heal which is an Active Defense, instead of a block).

beezeeze

jack fool is pretty good for teaching new players how to block. what is all alert bosses had such attacks but with a bit of text that says: BLOCK THIS. just before it?

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pantagruel01

hamsupfaymui said:

And blocking depends on the build — some builds reward blocking far less than others (examples: Glass Cannon builds like mine). A threat wipe and escape, or a power to self-resuscitate is a better option sometimes (or in the case of Supernatural Beast, Regeneration / Incredi-Heal which is an Active Defense, instead of a block).

Urr... you are sort of proving the point of this thread, as pretty much everything you just said is wrong. The primary scenario in which dps needs to block is against boom tells, and even a basic block will help a lot, while the other options you mention range from marginal to useless.

raighn

hamsupfaymui said:

Part of the problem with blocking is that any "free to play" players using an AT (instead of the Silver FF) will usually get their upgraded block power at L21 - mid-up the food chain when you start GRAB alerts at L10.

Thats not really adding to the problem all that much... and most FFs don't even take their block replacer until level 30+ if they even take one at all... However... giving ATs their block earlier or even giving everyone a dedicated Block Repacer ability slot at say level 10, would help raise awareness of he importance of blocking... If the game gives you a special slot for it along with a power point that can only be spent on a block, then it should be clear that "blocking is important"

decorumfriends

In the tutorial, there's a small blocking "tutorial" in a mine field just before you get to Chief Surhoff.

In the text you're supposed to read when you first meet up with Defender before facing Black Talon, in big red letters at the bottom it tells you to be ready to block. Then comes the blocking thing they always told you, that's kind of useless because if you stop to read it, you won't be blocking and Black Talon will shoot you across the room.

So they TRIED to make it more obvious, but it's still not as clear as having the old blocking tutorial.

riverocean

gradii said:

Final Fantasy XIV has some completely optional role training quests which explain how to do your role/fight enemies. these are made worthwhile by having them award a set of decent level 15 gear (level 15 being the level one starts doing dungeons) which is good enough it lasts you well into the 20s.

I like this idea. I think it would make much more sense to introduce something like this..over trying to force new mechanics into alerts.

hamsupfaymui said:

Part of the problem with blocking is that any "free to play" players using an AT (instead of the Silver FF) will usually get their upgraded block power at L21 - mid-up the food chain when you start GRAB alerts at L10.

Actually, all characters receive a free block power upon creation. It's just that the block replace power is a much better version. So you can still block at lower levels and mitigate incoming damage. In general though, its so much more than just not blocking. Its' the Zerg mentality encouraged for 90% of the game. Not too mention bad builds and terrible gearing. All of those issues that don't really matter until you reach end-game. Then it's a terrible surprise for the player.

jennymachx

roughbearmattach said:

Put block in the tutorial, when it barely matters, when folks are often skipping the tutorial, doesn't seem enough.

belwen said:

As for skipping the tutorial: I'm not sure if you can skip it on your first character. If you can, then that should be fixed.

The tutorial is not skippable if the player is playing their very first toon.

Even if it was skippable, a simple review of the power tray or powers list window will show the vanilla block and its straightfoward "you're a doofus if you don't get what this does" description balloon. On some basic level, a new player is expected to have some grasp on what powers do, and vanilla block is a default skill / power. The game's power and combat system as a whole isn't that complicated to figure out as long as the new player puts some minimal effort into learning things.

Addressing the main topic subject; I'd say that the game is a continuing learning experience from start to level 40. I've played legacy mission content before alerts was even a thing and I don't find any real discernable difference in how either content type teaches players the ropes. Like mission content, grab alerts can help players learn to be proficient in handling mobs. Before they hit 40, rampages give them all the opportunities to learn how to tackle more difficult fights. When they reach end game like cosmics, it's just advanced learning required when they already have the foundation and experience that's important (if they bother to learn cosmics anyway).

markhawkman

Heh, had a rather interesting Alert run last night. Black Talon bank robbery.... Somehow we had a team wipe on the initial engagement.... not sure how, but we'd actually aggroed all but one of the mobs outside the bank simultaneously. 2 of the players quit, leaving me and the other 2 to 3-man it.... I was using Tanya(a kinda tanky char), one of them was a squishy DPS and the other.... less squishy. Yeah, I ended up tanking pretty much every mob for the rest of the alert. Any time I went down... party wipe. Beating Black Talon was the easy part. He may have more HP than Annihilator bots, but he doesn't have that resist debuff attack.

pantagruel01

decorumfriends said:

In the tutorial, there's a small blocking "tutorial" in a mine field just before you get to Chief Surhoff.

With two significant problems:

1. The mines penetrate block.
   
2. If you just run through without blocking the mines don't hit you.
   

raighn

jennymachx said:

Addressing the main topic subject; I'd say that the game is a continuing learning experience from start to level 40. I've played legacy mission content before alerts was even a thing and I don't find any real discernable difference in how either content type teaches players the ropes.

The main difference, and the actual reason why players from before On Alert and new players now have such different grasps of game mechanics, is that the legacy mission content was largely solo content. Players had to learn the mechanics just to progress. Alerts on the other hand encourage the zerg mentality... it's possible to complete most every Grab Alert without ever blocking once. This is partially because of the level differences... even though everyone is SK'd to lv30 in alerts, the difference in power between a level 10 and a fully geared level 40 in an alert is insurmountable. The level 40 will just faceroll everything, and the level 10 is hitting things with a wet noodle. Even a Lvl 10 and a Lvl 40 in heirlooms are at completely different power levels in alerts... but as was pointed out earlier, fixing this would just make doing alerts nearly impossible...

When a player goes through the legacy mission content, be it solo or with a friend, they learn the mechanics out of necessity. It was a good system. Alerts completely lack that sort of necessity... you get grouped with random players of any level and skill, sometimes you get inexperienced groups and things go poorly, sometimes you get experienced groups and things go well, other times you get high level veterans and things are a complete cakewalk. The learning experience is completely gone.

decorumfriends

pantagruel01 said:

decorumfriends said:

In the tutorial, there's a small blocking "tutorial" in a mine field just before you get to Chief Surhoff.

With two significant problems:

1. The mines penetrate block.
   
2. If you just run through without blocking the mines don't hit you.
   

Oh, agreed. I was mostly just stating "what exists" and even mentioned it's not quite adequate.

jennymachx

raighn said:

jennymachx said:

Addressing the main topic subject; I'd say that the game is a continuing learning experience from start to level 40. I've played legacy mission content before alerts was even a thing and I don't find any real discernable difference in how either content type teaches players the ropes.

The main difference, and the actual reason why players from before On Alert and new players now have such different grasps of game mechanics, is that the legacy mission content was largely solo content. Players had to learn the mechanics just to progress. Alerts on the other hand encourage the zerg mentality... it's possible to complete most every Grab Alert without ever blocking once. This is partially because of the level differences... even though everyone is SK'd to lv30 in alerts, the difference in power between a level 10 and a fully geared level 40 in an alert is insurmountable. The level 40 will just faceroll everything, and the level 10 is hitting things with a wet noodle. Even a Lvl 10 and a Lvl 40 in heirlooms are at completely different power levels in alerts... but as was pointed out earlier, fixing this would just make doing alerts nearly impossible...

When a player goes through the legacy mission content, be it solo or with a friend, they learn the mechanics out of necessity. It was a good system. Alerts completely lack that sort of necessity... you get grouped with random players of any level and skill, sometimes you get inexperienced groups and things go poorly, sometimes you get experienced groups and things go well, other times you get high level veterans and things are a complete cakewalk. The learning experience is completely gone.

Kinda far-fetched to imply that there aren't instances in grabs where players don't need to use block.

Sure, there will be times in grab alerts when new players will be paired with more experienced player(s) with level 40s to soak up all the aggro and do the main work, with new players not needing to block, but that's not every time. There will be times when new players will find themselves getting all the aggro and learning how to deal with those situations; more or less along the lines of what happens when a solo player draws all the aggro from mobs.

That being said, I don't think grabs alone is enough for players to learn things more thoroughly. Content like the APs that can be solo'ed are good opportunities, and considering that they also give questionite and recognition rewards, I'd expect new players to be at least trying them out a few times and not just restricting themselves to alerts.

raighn

jennymachx said:

Kinda far-fetched to imply that there aren't instances in grabs where players don't need to use block.

I didn't imply that... not exactly what I said:

raighn said:

it's possible to complete most every Grab Alert without ever blocking once.

in most grabs blocking isn't even required at all. The only ones that blocking is ever required is against Viper PA rocket spam, Ripper's stun, Jack Fool, Baron, and Ao'qliphoth... everyone else can be facerolled without blocking. It's more benefitial to block against several other enemies, but not needed...

jennymachx said:

Sure, there will be times in grab alerts when new players will be paired with more experienced player(s) with level 40s to soak up all the aggro and do the main work, with new players not needing to block, but that's not every time. There will be times when new players will find themselves getting all the aggro and learning how to deal with those situations; more or less along the lines of what happens when a solo player draws all the aggro from mobs.

That being said, I don't think grabs alone is enough for players to learn things more thoroughly. Content like the APs that can be solo'ed are good opportunities, and considering that they also give questionite and recognition rewards, I'd expect new players to be at least trying them out a few times and not just restricting themselves to alerts.

Sadly, I've encountered an extremely high number players in Grab alerts who don't even know how to block... I'm not even assuming either... I've asked people who don't block stuff that should be blocked why they arn't blocking and gotten the response of "What do you mean block? how do I block?"

Sure situations may arise that in theory should help teach new players mechanics in alerts... but the unfortunate truth is that since it is queable content with random groups, people are more inclined to abandon and find a new group than to take the opportunity to learn and improve. Alerts are often called "Easy mode" or "the XP gravy train" and those names arn't just arbitrary or jokes, they are actually seen as those... people are not inclined to learn anything when they know they can just leave and come back with another group that will just faceroll everything.

jennymachx

raighn said:

in most grabs blocking isn't even required at all. The only ones that blocking is ever required is against Viper PA rocket spam, Ripper's stun, Jack Fool, Baron, and Ao'qliphoth... everyone else can be facerolled without blocking. It's more benefitial to block against several other enemies, but not needed...

Well considering that all those supervillains you've mentioned always appear in the grab alert rotation, what you're describing to be "exceptions" to the "no block required" assertion in grabs aren't really exceptions at all since new players eventually will be going up against those grab supervillains frequently enough on repeat to get xp / complete their daily.

Not every alert PUG is going to be ideally structured for facerolls. If a new player in the PUG for some reason find themselves drawing aggro often enough that blocking is the one thing that can keep them on their feet longer, then its just another condition where they learn the usefulness of blocking, in addition to having to block in all those supervillain fights you mentioned up there.

raighn said:

Sadly, I've encountered an extremely high number players in Grab alerts who don't even know how to block... I'm not even assuming either... I've asked people who don't block stuff that should be blocked why they arn't blocking and gotten the response of "What do you mean block? how do I block?"

On the flip-side I've come across plenty of players in the lower level range in grabs who've figured out blocking, and it shows during the alert, without seeing any questions on how to do it.

Every player upon making their first toon already sees their power tray on their HUD the moment they start playing the game, tutorial or not. At the start the game gives all the opportunities for a new player to figure out what that power tray is for and what the powers in that tray do, including block right there at the bottom left slot. If they don't want to be thorough in grasping what they can about these details when they start playing the game then it can't be helped, and I'm sure there are more than enough new players past and present who have been attentive enough to these details.

roughbearmattach

As raighn and riverocean said, the zerg mentality is probably a major factor in players not learning to block.

Sure, it's in the tutorial, which you only have to do once, but you can really just just take the damage and move on. There is no serious attempt at a blocking-is-mandatory-sometimes message. You can not block and run past, you can take the damage and shrug it off, or just click respawn repeatedly.

jennymachx

roughbearmattach said:

As raighn and riverocean said, the zerg mentality is probably a major factor in players not learning to block.

Sure, it's in the tutorial, which you only have to do once, but you can really just just take the damage and move on. There is no serious attempt at a blocking-is-mandatory-sometimes message. You can not block and run past, you can take the damage and shrug it off, or just click respawn repeatedly.

There will be certain supervillains towards the end of grabs that put a huge emphasis on block being really, really important anyway. Just because for some reason a starting player doesn't understand the blocking part of the tutorial, it automatically means they won't figure it out ever?

I mean, zerg all you want, but eventually you're going to have to learn how and when to block when it's important to. Even before new players qualify level-wise to start doing alerts, they have to go through westside and Kevin Poe. Opportunities for learnign to block start even then.

Assuming that, despite facing enough situations where blocking is obviously important and that player stubbornly refuses to block ever, then that's something fundamentally wrong with the player and nothing to do with the game not doing enough to teach players to block.

markhawkman

decorumfriends said:

pantagruel01 said:

decorumfriends said:

In the tutorial, there's a small blocking "tutorial" in a mine field just before you get to Chief Surhoff.

With two significant problems:

1. The mines penetrate block.
   
2. If you just run through without blocking the mines don't hit you.
   

Oh, agreed. I was mostly just stating "what exists" and even mentioned it's not quite adequate.

I keep wanting to say that last time I did the tutorial I somehow made the mines explode when not near them, but not by sprinting past them.

Is this the part with the exploding Qularr seeds? IIRC I used them for target practice. DPS of dead = 0.

markhawkman

raighn said:

in most grabs blocking isn't even required at all. The only ones that blocking is ever required is against Viper PA rocket spam, Ripper's stun, Jack Fool, Baron, and Ao'qliphoth... everyone else can be facerolled without blocking. It's more benefitial to block against several other enemies, but not needed...

I'd throw in Annihilator Bots too. Their BAM won't directly kill you, but you usually don't live long afterwards.

nepht

Smash alerts do make bad players >_>

roughbearmattach

jennymachx said:

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I mean, zerg all you want, but eventually you're going to have to learn how and when to block when it's important to. Even before new players qualify level-wise to start doing alerts, they have to go through westside and Kevin Poe. Opportunities for learnign to block start even then.

Assuming that, despite facing enough situations where blocking is obviously important and that player stubbornly refuses to block ever, then that's something fundamentally wrong with the player and nothing to do with the game not doing enough to teach players to block.

But we see so many people that do not eventually learn how and when to block. They get through Kevin Poe by zerging, with a partner, and with healing items.

Baron C and Jack Fool have attacks that really need to be blocked by most players. Valerian Scarlett can occasionally be quite dangerous, too. That is good, in my opinion--just add some similar, nasty attacks to the other Alert bosses.

spinnytop

On tutorial and training missions: Adding something to the tutorial, or having some early followup training quests is only a start (pun). However, players tend to forget what isn't reinforced - you can make a huge deal in the tutorial about how important something is, but if the player then spends their leveling to 40 not having to use it then all that went to waste. You can't just mention something once - you have to reinforce it consistently, otherwise we're right back to square one: by the time they hit level 40, the player has forgotten whatever it was you made a big deal about at the lower levels.

I like the idea of adding stuff you have to block/move out of or get thumped.

erile

As a relatively new player, I would point out that based on how all the higher level players act in the Alerts, none of it will matter because they never allow the Alert to progress normally or care about what happens to the lower level players in the Alerts.

pantagruel01

erile#2692 said:

As a relatively new player, I would point out that based on how all the higher level players act in the Alerts, none of it will matter because they never allow the Alert to progress normally or care about what happens to the lower level players in the Alerts.

What do you mean by 'progress normally'? There aren't really a lot of choices in alerts, and it goes through the same sequence no matter who's running it. Level disparities do mean that roles aren't terribly relevant (a level 20 tank isn't going to out-threat a level 40 dps) but you could still put in things that lower levels would need to block and so on.

darqaura2

spinnytop said:

We had a discussion about this in the secret evil elite channel for like 20 minutes today, and I figured it would make a neat public discussion. So, how do you think Grab alerts can better teach players the things they'll need to know when they hit 40 and start endgame content?

Depends, what specifically is the goal? What are you trying to teach them, in preparation for level 40?
Is it blocking, is it being in proper role depending on what you intend to focus on for the encounter? Is it about how to properly perform their dps role? Knowing how to move away from ground focused AOE? How to properly read the different types of enemy attack tells? How to tank properly?, etc, etc?

magpieuk2014

erile#2692 said:

As a relatively new player, I would point out that based on how all the higher level players act in the Alerts, none of it will matter because they never allow the Alert to progress normally or care about what happens to the lower level players in the Alerts.

Tee Hee. I went through my ignore list recently and was a little shocked at some of the names that came up. Now, other than gold or zone spam, the only thing I ever ignore people for is selfishness; speedrunning through Alerts, ignoring the rest of the team, setting off on their own, zerging through things as fast as possible and then sitting at the entrance to the boss room with a "where have you been" look on their face (turning up late to collect rewards and leaving Alerts because there's too many level 11s in it also qualifies, too).

The thing is... a lot of these people (and they are experienced and prominent players) aren't being mean. They're just taking the path of least resistance. If you're a lowbie in an Alert and you get isolated, they would tell you that the quickest thing to do is just to die and respawn. Don't bother with blocking, healing devices, trying to work your way out of it. Just die, respawn and follow. It's quicker. And in Alerts, to many players, speed of completion is everything.

The problem with this is that Alerts also function as people's first taste of team mechanics. Blocking - so often completely pointless in solo content, the last thing you do before you die - actually does have a worth here, because your team can defeat the enemies, or heal you. Thinking about things like aggro, who'll you'll provoke if you fire that AoE, where's cover, who's the tank, the healer, the DPS..... all have to be learned and sorted quick smart. Which people do, assuming they're given the chance. Some of the best game moments I've had were in things like pre-nerf Ao-Qephoth, where you could actually explain to low level players what they had to do before it killed them. Always nice to see lightbulbs going on above players' heads. You get nothing from trailing behind a level 40 zerging everything.

Alert bosses should definitely be given a pass and hopefully they'd all get a genuinely dangerous ability (an AoE or two would be nice, to keep the DPS characters on their toes) - fairly telegraphed, of course, to reflect the difficulty level.

raighn

magpieuk2014 said:

erile#2692 said:

As a relatively new player, I would point out that based on how all the higher level players act in the Alerts, none of it will matter because they never allow the Alert to progress normally or care about what happens to the lower level players in the Alerts.

Tee Hee. I went through my ignore list recently and was a little shocked at some of the names that came up. Now, other than gold or zone spam, the only thing I ever ignore people for is selfishness; speedrunning through Alerts, ignoring the rest of the team, setting off on their own, zerging through things as fast as possible and then sitting at the entrance to the boss room with a "where have you been" look on their face (turning up late to collect rewards and leaving Alerts because there's too many level 11s in it also qualifies, too).

The thing is... a lot of these people (and they are experienced and prominent players) aren't being mean. They're just taking the path of least resistance. If you're a lowbie in an Alert and you get isolated, they would tell you that the quickest thing to do is just to die and respawn. Don't bother with blocking, healing devices, trying to work your way out of it. Just die, respawn and follow. It's quicker. And in Alerts, to many players, speed of completion is everything.

The problem with this is that Alerts also function as people's first taste of team mechanics. Blocking - so often completely pointless in solo content, the last thing you do before you die - actually does have a worth here, because your team can defeat the enemies, or heal you. Thinking about things like aggro, who'll you'll provoke if you fire that AoE, where's cover, who's the tank, the healer, the DPS..... all have to be learned and sorted quick smart. Which people do, assuming they're given the chance. Some of the best game moments I've had were in things like pre-nerf Ao-Qephoth, where you could actually explain to low level players what they had to do before it killed them. Always nice to see lightbulbs going on above players' heads. You get nothing from trailing behind a level 40 zerging everything.

Alert bosses should definitely be given a pass and hopefully they'd all get a genuinely dangerous ability (an AoE or two would be nice, to keep the DPS characters on their toes) - fairly telegraphed, of course, to reflect the difficulty level.

I feel compeled to point out that in some cases a player may run ahead of the team not because they believe themselves to be superior or anything like that but because it might be the only way for them to contribute to the team due to how their build works. For example, if I'm on one of my CC characters, such as Mere or Achroma, I'll often seperate myself from the group and get an early start on the next group of enemies. The reason for this is to avoid dragging the team down due to qn inability to effectively contribute to the group. When on those characters it is more benefitial to the group for me to weaken enemies ahead of them, as their damage output is almost non-existant, and CC doesnt work very well with allys...

rtma

raighn said:

if I'm on one of my CC characters, such as Mere or Achroma, I'll often seperate myself from the group and get an early start on the next group of enemies. The reason for this is to avoid dragging the team down due to qn inability to effectively contribute to the group. When on those characters it is more benefitial to the group for me to weaken enemies ahead of them, as their damage output is almost non-existant, and CC doesnt work very well with allys...

Main reason why CC isn't a practical mechanic in CO is because it's Hold HP doesn't scale whatsoever(only Duration), even with damage and diminishing returns, you can still boost damage, but CC, Nope, so it breaks the second a DPS attack them thus rendering it irrelevant, I can understand your pain, I used to have 2 CC Oriented builds, one became a DPS and the other, still CC but with Debuffing/Buffing/Pet build, if they made Hold HP Scale with PRE/CC Strength/Specs, would make it more useful then a stalling tactic/Gimmick,

As for above with Blocking, giving the bosses Jack Fool leveled damage levels (And up even) would make Blocking more relevant and encourage teamwork (Yay Support/Tanking) then self absorbed rushing.

avianos

Now you have to be really careful with such additions, you don't want to deviate too much from Casual-level difficulties of common alerts

Perhaps giving ALL BOSSES the Battle Wireframe Tech
Battle Wireframes will encourage players to move to avoid AoEs and devastating attacks and BLOCK!

I still believe that Wireframes are the BEST thing that happened ingame, they encourage you to PAY ATTENTION to your enviroment and not just blinding "Press 1 Key to win" ill mentality

raighn wrote: »

I feel compeled to point out that in some cases a player may run ahead of the team not because they believe themselves to be superior or anything like that but because it might be the only way for them to contribute to the team due to how their build works. For example, if I'm on one of my CC characters, such as Mere or Achroma, I'll often seperate myself from the group and get an early start on the next group of enemies. The reason for this is to avoid dragging the team down due to qn inability to effectively contribute to the group. When on those characters it is more benefitial to the group for me to weaken enemies ahead of them, as their damage output is almost non-existant, and CC doesnt work very well with allys...

I have been doing this a lot in Grabs alert when I play with my level DPS characters
not for selfish and bragging rights but for following the strategy of "Divide and Conquer"
also because I cannot stand the idiots who keep spamming knocks, scattering the mob groups and ruining AoEs, Melee and Melee AoES​​

rtma

avianos said:

also because I cannot stand the idiots who keep spamming knocks, scattering the mob groups and ruining AoEs, Melee and Melee AoES​​

I feel kinda guilty when leveling with Typhoon cause he uses wind and that pushes targets outside of Melee range, I know how annoying that can be for Melee(I've been there a few times), I try to push the target in the direction of the Melee or into a wall so they can't move.

raighn

rtma said:

avianos said:

also because I cannot stand the idiots who keep spamming knocks, scattering the mob groups and ruining AoEs, Melee and Melee AoES​​

I feel kinda guilty when leveling with Typhoon cause he uses wind and that pushes targets outside of Melee range, I know how annoying that can be for Melee(I've been there a few times), I try to push the target in the direction of the Melee or into a wall so they can't move.

I felt a little guilty when leveling Vector since she uses force to emulate proper telekinesis... but I also had her damage and knock strength so high that anything she knocked was almost guaranteed to be defeated upon landing... and I comboed her force geyser with detonate to single out targets for mid air knockbacks both to reduce disruption and to maximize falling damage due to the greater distance it yielded.

erile

magpieuk2014 said:

Tee Hee. I went through my ignore list recently and was a little shocked at some of the names that came up. Now, other than gold or zone spam, the only thing I ever ignore people for is selfishness; speedrunning through Alerts, ignoring the rest of the team, setting off on their own, zerging through things as fast as possible and then sitting at the entrance to the boss room with a "where have you been" look on their face (turning up late to collect rewards and leaving Alerts because there's too many level 11s in it also qualifies, too).

This is exactly my point. This happens every time or nearly every time. How can newer players be able to learn if this is always happening? I can't count how many times I and other participants have died because of this either (because of the hitting the hornet's nest and then running away behavior that leaves non-tanks to get attacked when they show up)

magpieuk2014 said:

The thing is... a lot of these people (and they are experienced and prominent players) aren't being mean. They're just taking the path of least resistance. If you're a lowbie in an Alert and you get isolated, they would tell you that the quickest thing to do is just to die and respawn. Don't bother with blocking, healing devices, trying to work your way out of it. Just die, respawn and follow. It's quicker. And in Alerts, to many players, speed of completion is everything.

It is only the path of least resistance for the first person (or small group). For everyone that follows behind, it is now the path of most resistance because all the bad guys are stirred up. So it really slows down the process for everyone else (because the team is split up and lessens their participation.

Honestly, if you want to teach teamwork, start by making it so people can't abandon the team at any point with controlled area access.

magpieuk2014 said:

The problem with this is that Alerts also function as people's first taste of team mechanics. Blocking - so often completely pointless in solo content, the last thing you do before you die - actually does have a worth here, because your team can defeat the enemies, or heal you. Thinking about things like aggro, who'll you'll provoke if you fire that AoE, where's cover, who's the tank, the healer, the DPS..... all have to be learned and sorted quick smart. Which people do, assuming they're given the chance. Some of the best game moments I've had were in things like pre-nerf Ao-Qephoth, where you could actually explain to low level players what they had to do before it killed them. Always nice to see lightbulbs going on above players' heads. You get nothing from trailing behind a level 40 zerging everything.

Alert bosses should definitely be given a pass and hopefully they'd all get a genuinely dangerous ability (an AoE or two would be nice, to keep the DPS characters on their toes) - fairly telegraphed, of course, to reflect the difficulty level.

It sounds to me like their should be more tutorials about this kind of thing before you get to these bigger events. (though I feel the game is generally lacking in tutorials. I am surprised at how many things you have to figure out on your own with research on various forums - because the wiki is very lacking as well)