Bountiful Chi Resurgence and Resurgent Reiki need to be improved

lucidity

Remember BCR&RR before the nerf? It was actually good at recovering health. There were just certain situations where it was overpowered.

Both BCR and RR should be able to crit.

The -10% damage debuff should be removed.

Resurgent Reiki should be able to heal more often than every half-second.

How would you improve this power?

Discuss ^_^

raighn

It doesn't need any improvements. It's still a very powerful self heal.​​

chalupaoffury

What they said. BCR + MD is still stupid-powerful. I even use BCR when I'm not using resurgent reiki, because the heal over time is a nice fire and forget. There ain't a hell of a lot of that in game.

roughbearmattach

On almost every toon I use BCR, the CD is shorter than the power's duration--I can keep it up continuously. It is really a good self-heal, especially for a build with noticeable dodge.

I think it doesn't seem as good as years ago, because dodge is harder to build for now than before the changes, which made the RR adv so much more appealing. If you aren't getting enough heals from BCR, and you don't have a high-dodge build, dump the adv and take R3.

decorumfriends

pandoraslockbox said:

Remember BCR&RR before the nerf? It was actually good at recovering health. There were just certain situations where it was overpowered.

Ha! I think that was more "there were certain situations where it wasn't overpowered".

It's saved my butt too many times, both before and after the "nerf", to think it needs improving.

riverocean

I always try to sneak some bonus healing or PRE into my builds that use BCR. Like a Sentinels brooch or one of those +xx% offensive secondaries. They improve the heal noticeably.

aesica

The damage penalty should probably go away since, if I recall, it's a similar HPS to Conviction, except spread out rather than up front with a chance to crit.

Other than that, its healing power is just fine.​​

raighn

aesica wrote: »

The damage penalty should probably go away since, if I recall, it's a similar HPS to Conviction, except spread out rather than up front with a chance to crit.

Other than that, its healing power is just fine.

The damage penalty actually helps balance it out... Last I checked, the HPS from it was actually a little higher than Conviction... Conviction also impacts your DPS through the opportunity cost which if used every time it's off CD they would take roughly a 5% DPS cut over not using Conviction ever. Similarly, Reconstruction Circuits, which has an even higher HPS than BCR locks the PA user out of their Chest slot which is at least 33% of their DPS for it's duration. And then Absorb Heat has the opportunity cost penalty of Conviction with an added DPS cut by consuming Clinging Flames for increased Healing.

Conviction is seen as the best self heal simply because it provides a large upfront heal and is spammable. Most people don't notice the DPS drop because it is indirect, they still see the same numbers popping up.​​

pantagruel01

aesica said:

The damage penalty should probably go away since, if I recall, it's a similar HPS to Conviction, except spread out rather than up front with a chance to crit.

It also has zero animation time, which pretty much compensates for the dps loss compared to Conviction.

championshewolf

pantagruel01 said:

aesica said:

The damage penalty should probably go away since, if I recall, it's a similar HPS to Conviction, except spread out rather than up front with a chance to crit.

It also has zero animation time, which pretty much compensates for the dps loss compared to Conviction.

Pretty much. Using the logic that the damage penalty should go is like saying PA needs to be able to use recon circuits while being able to use chest slot weapons to.

aesica

raighn wrote: »

The damage penalty actually helps balance it out... Last I checked, the HPS from it was actually a little higher than Conviction... Conviction also impacts your DPS through the opportunity cost which if used every time it's off CD they would take roughly a 5% DPS cut over not using Conviction ever. Similarly, Reconstruction Circuits, which has an even higher HPS than BCR locks the PA user out of their Chest slot which is at least 33% of their DPS for it's duration. And then Absorb Heat has the opportunity cost penalty of Conviction with an added DPS cut by consuming Clinging Flames for increased Healing.

Conviction is seen as the best self heal simply because it provides a large upfront heal and is spammable. Most people don't notice the DPS drop because it is indirect, they still see the same numbers popping up.

If the raw HPS is higher, there's still a good chance that more of its healing will go to waste as overhealing in a group setting, provided somebody is on active healing duty. In contrast, the instant, up-front healing from conviction is something you'll likely use immediately in response to a strong hit, so most (if not all) of it doesn't get wasted.

Maybe BCR's damage penalty should be reduced to 5% then?

As for Reconstruction Circuits, yeah it's a huge mess and could use some sort of overhaul. It'd be nice to have it function exactly like BCR (with a shared cooldown so you can't stack both of them) and then, both should be usable even while toggles are active.​​

raighn

aesica wrote: »

raighn wrote: »

The damage penalty actually helps balance it out... Last I checked, the HPS from it was actually a little higher than Conviction... Conviction also impacts your DPS through the opportunity cost which if used every time it's off CD they would take roughly a 5% DPS cut over not using Conviction ever. Similarly, Reconstruction Circuits, which has an even higher HPS than BCR locks the PA user out of their Chest slot which is at least 33% of their DPS for it's duration. And then Absorb Heat has the opportunity cost penalty of Conviction with an added DPS cut by consuming Clinging Flames for increased Healing.

Conviction is seen as the best self heal simply because it provides a large upfront heal and is spammable. Most people don't notice the DPS drop because it is indirect, they still see the same numbers popping up.

If the raw HPS is higher, there's still a good chance that more of its healing will go to waste as overhealing in a group setting, provided somebody is on active healing duty. In contrast, the instant, up-front healing from conviction is something you'll likely use immediately in response to a strong hit, so most (if not all) of it doesn't get wasted.

Maybe BCR's damage penalty should be reduced to 5% then?

As for Reconstruction Circuits, yeah it's a huge mess and could use some sort of overhaul. It'd be nice to have it function exactly like BCR (with a shared cooldown so you can't stack both of them) and then, both should be usable even while toggles are active.

Overhealing isn't, never has been, and never will be a balancing factor, UNLESS a singular power is overhealing constantly on it's own by such a massive margin that it alone effectively makes you unkillable (like many of the healing specs before they got nerfed)

Healing is balanced around the raw HPS, Energy cost, and Opportunity cost. A heal with a high HPS, low energy, and low opportunity cost would be incredibly unbalanced, and that is what both BCR and Recon Circuits are. To balance that out both of them have a damage penalty. BCR's low enegy, long duration, and nearly non-existant opportunity cost affords it a 10% DPS penalty. Recon Circuits heavy HPS, almost non-existant energy cost, and long duration is balanced out by it's opportunity cost of your Chest Slot which as I mentioned is about 33% of your damage.​​

pantagruel01

raighn said:

Overhealing isn't, never has been, and never will be a balancing factor.​​

It can be, but only on powers with long cooldowns or high opportunity costs for use.

roughbearmattach

Conviction was given an activation time last year. It is 0.5 sec.

Link

raighn

roughbearmattach wrote: »

Conviction was given an activation time last year. It is 0.5 sec.

Link

and it still has a 2.5 second animation as well that will block most actions in the first 1 second of it.​​

rtma

I find the Damage Debuff to be discouraging, but synergies with Lightning Reflexes passive appropriately since it triggers on Dodge for extra Heals, I haven't had a problem otherwise.

championshewolf

Discouraged over a 10% drop in damage, for a 14 energy power. Well if it lost that damage reduction then chi would need to have it's energy cost ramped up for what it does. Recon Circuit costs me a lot of my damage if I want it on, has a 5.8 cost and a 3.8 cost per tick (8 ticks) every half second. These numbers are of course based on my own energy discounts so are not 100% accurate. So, on that number alone it costs me around 36.2 energy to use my self heal, that doesn't stack mind you, and costs me around 2000 DPS to use it. Methinks before complaining about your 10% loss you might want to consider a MUCH bigger energy cost. Like hrmm, 4 to 5 times bigger if you expect to lose that damage reduction, at the very least.

spinnytop

I'm sure someone mentioned it but remember that BCR can stack if you get the cooldown low enough. It already has quite a lot going for it.

raighn said:

Healing is balanced around the raw HPS, Energy cost, and Opportunity cost. A heal with a high HPS, low energy, and low opportunity cost would be incredibly unbalanced, and that is what both BCR and Recon Circuits are. To balance that out both of them have a damage penalty. BCR's low enegy, long duration, and nearly non-existant opportunity cost affords it a 10% DPS penalty. Recon Circuits heavy HPS, almost non-existant energy cost, and long duration is balanced out by it's opportunity cost of your Chest Slot which as I mentioned is about 33% of your damage.​​

^ some very good stuff here about why these powers have the downsides they do, and why those downsides should stay in place.

reaperwithnoname

raighn said:

Overhealing isn't, never has been, and never will be a balancing factor

I disagree that the possibility of overhealing isn't a factor in balance, but that on its own doesn't necessarily mean a buff to BCR is warranted, especially given that BCR has the advantage of being fire-and-forget.

Nitpicking aside, the rest of your post tells the story. There doesn't seem to be any need for a buff to BCR at the present time.

thekrazzee

Here's my suggestion for some possible changes to BCR.

Bountiful Chi Resurgence [Tier 2]
-Energy cost slightly increased.
+Healing slightly increased.
+Heals you every second.
-Power recharge increased to 20 seconds.
-Duration reduced from 16 seconds to 10 seconds.
-Can no longer stack.
Advantages
(New Advantage) Chi Connection [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by 25%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces Dimensional damage you deal.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants 10% Dimensional Damage Strength.
(New Advantage) Meditative Focus [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by 25%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants 25% Hold Resistance for each stack of Focus you have.
+While you are Focused, Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces your Damage Strength.
Resurgent Reiki [2 Advantage Points]
+Dodging an attack increases the duration of Bountiful Chi Resurgence by 1 second.
-This effect can occur only every 2 seconds.

thekrazzee

Here are some ideas for what can be done with BCR.

Bountiful Chi Resurgence [Tier 2]
-Energy cost slightly increased.
+Healing slightly increased.
+Heals you every second.
-Power recharge increased to 20 seconds.
-Duration reduced from 16 seconds to 10 seconds.
-Can no longer stack.
Advantages
(New Advantage) Chi Connection [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by 25%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces Dimensional damage you deal.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants 10% Dimensional Damage Strength.
(New Advantage) Meditative Focus [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by 25%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants 25% Hold Resistance for each stack of Focus you have.
+While you are Focused, Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces your Damage Strength.
Resurgent Reiki [2 Advantage Points]
+Dodging an attack increases the duration of Bountiful Chi Resurgence by 1 second.
-This effect can occur only every 2 seconds.

championshewolf

Sorry @thekrazzee but that is a ridiculous buff to an already ridiculously strong heal. Slightly increase the energy cost? You best consider a much bigger increase than slightly. And those advantages that give ridiculous buffing? Sorry you best expect a cost significantly higher than 25%.

deadman20

Why would you want to buff me?​​

thekrazzee

championshewolf said:

Slightly increase the energy cost? You best consider a much bigger increase than slightly.

I can see the need to drastically increase the cost of BCR given what it does. This paired with a lengthened recharge, somewhere around 30-60 seconds, and the inability to stack would decrease the power's spammability in my opinion. The buff to BCR's healing was made to offset said lack of stacking, though the increase to its base healing could be omitted.

championshewolf said:

And those advantages that give ridiculous buffing? Sorry you best expect a cost significantly higher than 25%.

In regards to the Meditative Focus advantage, the need for a greater energy cost drawback is DEFINITELY there (~40%-50% EN cost increase), I see that now. With its removal of the damage strength debuff with Focus, it could proc once the user has eight full stacks of Focus, as a way to make it more mechanically logical with its etymology. With the Chi Connection advantage, perhaps it would only keep Dimensional damage untouched by the damage strength debuff and not provide a boost to that damage or give its damage buff to Martial Arts or Unarmed powers only.

spinnytop

See the problem is you included specific numbers. What you want to do is just use variables, i.e. "increases damage by x%". Doing this you can avoid even having to talk about numbers being overpower/underpowered and focus instead on the mechanical changes you propose, and it also acknowledges the fact that the numbers are gonna be run through testing and modified before such changes would go live anyway ( discussion can never substitute for testing when it comes to setting numbers ).

200% Hold Resistance + removing the damage penalty all in one advantage? That seems like a bit much. Even if you reduce the amount of hold strength it seems like a lot. Removing the damage penalty would have to be it's own advantage with no other effects involved. The problem there is that it's already perfectly feasible to not rank up BCR and just take RR, meaning people would remove the damage penalty and take RR.

Making BCR a dimensional damage buffer...interesting concept.

The RR nerf kind of strikes me as being even more "must have" than the current RR due to the changes to duration and cooldown you've made.


Overall you actually haven't changed the power dynamic much. The power will still motivate people to get cooldown reduction and dodge chance, and the overall healing would remain the same ( since there's no reason to reduce or increase the total HPS potential of the power ). The only real difference you've made is that people will be putting 2 more advantage points into it for a damage buff - kinda makes me think you could erase all the other changes you've listed and just make that one change, adding an advantage that removes the damage debuff, and arrive at basically the same place.

thekrazzee

spinnytop said:

See the problem is you included specific numbers. What you want to do is just use variables, i.e. "increases damage by x%". Doing this you can avoid even having to talk about numbers being overpower/underpowered and focus instead on the mechanical changes you propose, and it also acknowledges the fact that the numbers are gonna be run through testing and modified before such changes would go live anyway ( discussion can never substitute for testing when it comes to setting numbers ).

Ahh okay, I see. Yeah, the inclusion of specific numbers can make it come across as too much or too little.

spinnytop said:

200% Hold Resistance + removing the damage penalty all in one advantage? That seems like a bit much. Even if you reduce the amount of hold strength it seems like a lot. Removing the damage penalty would have to be it's own advantage with no other effects involved. The problem there is that it's already perfectly feasible to not rank up BCR and just take RR, meaning people would remove the damage penalty and take RR.

The 200% Hold Resistance is assuming the user in question has full Focus stacks. Still, the removal of the damage penalty paired with that potential hold resistance does seem like a lot. Perhaps the Meditative Focus adv would only provide the Hold Resistance and/or another method of giving it synergy with Focus stack.

spinnytop said:

Making BCR a dimensional damage buffer...interesting concept.

I figured BCR could use some synergy with Dimensional damage.

spinnytop said:

The RR nerf kind of strikes me as being even more "must have" than the current RR due to the changes to duration and cooldown you've made.

Yeah, the 5 second extension with a 20 recharge would make it ridiculous, even without the ability to stack BCR.

spinnytop said:

Overall you actually haven't changed the power dynamic much. The power will still motivate people to get cooldown reduction and dodge chance, and the overall healing would remain the same ( since there's no reason to reduce or increase the total HPS potential of the power ). The only real difference you've made is that people will be putting 2 more advantage points into it for a damage buff - kinda makes me think you could erase all the other changes you've listed and just make that one change, adding an advantage that removes the damage debuff, and arrive at basically the same place.

Looking it over, these ideas definitely do stress CDR and Dodge Chance. Here is a revision of my idea for BCR.

Bountiful Chi Resurgence [Tier 2]
-Energy cost increased.
+Heals you every second.
-Power recharge increased to 45-60 seconds.
-Duration reduced from 16 seconds to 10 seconds.
-Can no longer stack.
Advantages
(New Advantage) Chi Overflow [2 Advantage Points]
+Whenever you deal Dimensional damage, Bountiful Chi Resurgence heals teammates within 25 feet of you.
-This can only occur every 2 seconds.
(New Advantage) Meditative Focus [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by X%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces the damage dealt by your Martial Arts powers.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants X% Martial Arts Offense for each stack of Focus you have.
Resurgent Reiki [2 Advantage Points]
+Dodging an attack increases the duration of Bountiful Chi Resurgence by 1 second.
-This effect can occur only every 2 seconds.

aesica

thekrazzee wrote: »

Bountiful Chi Resurgence [Tier 2]
-Energy cost slightly increased.
+Healing slightly increased.
+Heals you every second.
-Power recharge increased to 20 seconds.
-Duration reduced from 16 seconds to 10 seconds.
-Can no longer stack.

Not really sure what the point of this is. Part of BCR's appeal is that it's something you can keep rolling for steady over-time healing. Condensing all the healing into 10 seconds with a 20 second cooldown would make it feel more like Conviction's burst healing, except on a longer cooldown so it might not be as ideal due to being less available. (over-10-sec burst every 20 seconds vs an instant burst every 5 seconds)

BCR's stacking should probably go away though.

thekrazzee wrote: »

Advantages
(New Advantage) Chi Connection [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by 25%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces Dimensional damage you deal.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants 10% Dimensional Damage Strength.
(New Advantage) Meditative Focus [2 Advantage Points]
-Bountiful Chi Resurgence's Energy cost is increased by 25%.
+Bountiful Chi Resurgence grants 25% Hold Resistance for each stack of Focus you have.
+While you are Focused, Bountiful Chi Resurgence no longer reduces your Damage Strength.

I don't like either of these because they take what's currently a power that works well with every framework and instead, turn it into something that picks favorites. What about Enrage? Or Concentration? I realize Focus is MA's version, but not everything in a framework needs to synergize with other elements of that framework. The more that happens, the less cross-framework-friendly the game becomes.

Also in particular, turning a healing power into an auxiliary damage buffer for dimensional damage turns BCR into something literally every Shadow build should take, and Shadow already has enough self healing.​​

qawsada

I would just leave it as it is and focus on buffing other heals.

darqaura2

qawsada said:

I would just leave it as it is and focus on buffing other heals.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Unknown

This content has been removed.

spinnytop

qawsada said:

I would just leave it as it is and focus on buffing other heals.

or adding more heals. I agree, BCR doesn't really need any changes.

avianos

spinnytop wrote: »

or adding more heals. I agree, BCR doesn't really need any changes.

qawsada wrote: »

I would just leave it as it is and focus on buffing other heals.

AGREED with both of you
We need more NEW thematic healing powers​​